OverUnity Research

Hi guy's  :)

Here are some pics of my conversion tube and the capacitors + oil filled transformers.
I have done some testing with intresting results. but more tests need to be done.

Also Here is a nice collection of pictures:

http://www.universalpower.webs.com/gallery/Edwin%20Vincent%20Gray/index.html (http://www.universalpower.webs.com/gallery/Edwin%20Vincent%20Gray/index.html)

Marco.

Nice job on the Gray tube. Also looks like you scored some decent HV transformers. What kVA rating are they? And secondary voltage?
Be careful man those things look deadly.....but I'm sure you are very experienced around HV. Hope to see some of those interesting results.

Regards.....ION

Hi Marco

Good to see you over here, nice build thanks for showing us.

Peter

Shows up alot of places.
If this configuration appears with alot of people who made claims, including Telsa(Ahem). Why does this not show up in the experimenters arena?
The perpetraitors of this design copied Tesla.
L1 is 1/4 the length of L2. This means that the L1 drive entails the electron clockwise spin or the magnetic part if the sine.

Hi Guy's  :)

@ION

The Transformers put out 3Kv at 6ma.
They are not so deadly...But the caps are  :)
I have 3 of them.

@Paul

The picture you just posted reminds me of the same setup Eric P Dollard used in his experiments.
He reffers to it as the balanced coil system, and he explaines the charges moves too fast over the windings that there is a chocking effect on the electrons so they can't move that fast and this gives rise to the cold curent...

He also respects the primary divided or equal multiple of secondary coil rules..

Marco.

@Marco,
I see nothing but air core. Same as Smith's.

Hi Marco,

Nice! mein Gott, that cap looks punchy and dangerous.

The Grey tube may be similar to the Optical Generator of Patents 3781601 and 4260933.   If so, additional capacitance between the arc gap electrodes may make a difference in the Grey Tube as may placing the gap in the center of the screen, and filling the space of the tube with a noble gas.  Helium is readily available at stores in balloon kits.   Just vacuum out the air and back-fill with He.

What makes you think Gray's tubes were filled with a noble gas?

Marco.

Quote from: Turbo on 2009.12.18, 16:52:44
What makes you think Gray's tubes were filled with a noble gas?

Marco.

I thought that noble gases may increase the polarization radiation.  (They would also alter the permittivity inside the tube.)  Whenever a gas is "polarized" or "ionized" some form of radiation is emitted and often several forms.

A solenoid coil around the tube would alter the permeability of the space in the tube and may prove beneficial.

Increasing the permittivity or permeability of space also alters the speed of propagation of energy travelling throug it - slowing it down.  So the oil in the Optical generators will slow down anything radiating from the gap an the oil will also be polarized and might be constantly repolarized, providing charge to the outer can.

Radiation can transfer "momentum" from a photon or particle to another photon or particle (this includes virtual photons that make up fields).  Repeated "radiation" becomes cumulative and if you can keep your little carrier energized it can keep transferring momentum - hint hint.

Both the Grey tube and the optical generator in the two patents referenced show a continuously charge collector.  "Collector" is a term used to describe something that receives radiation (from an emitter - for example).  Radiation may be particulate or photonic and is produced whenever something changes velocity (is accelerated or decelerated as in bremsstrahlung).

So, RE is probably "polarization radiation" which is photonic - hence the "neutral particles" that don't deflect.  It's cause is the sudden change in polarization of the circuit and the amount of polarizable constituents as well as their degree of polarizability.   (Xenon has a high degree of polarizabilty.)

This gas thing applies more to the correa's PAGD tube then to the Gray tube.
We know the PAGD tube is filled with argon.

The Gray tube uses perforated recieving grids.
There is no indication that it contained any noble gas.

Also, my bet is on the electrons, not the photons.
If you shoot one electron towards another it has to move....you can never put two in the same place.(kinetic)
But you can squeeze as much photons in a box as you like....(radiation)

Marco.

Quote from: Turbo on 2009.12.18, 20:07:04
This gas thing applies more to the correa's PAGD tube then to the Gray tube.
We know the PAGD tube is filled with argon.

The Gray tube uses perforated recieving grids.
There is no indication that it contained any noble gas.

Also, my bet is on the electrons, not the photons.
If you shoot one electron towards another it has to move....you can never put two in the same place.(kinetic)
But you can squeeze as much photons in a box as you like....(radiation)

Marco.

The Grey tube uses more than one grid connected together.  Anything with high "momentum" will transfer energy to something else it hits - like a photon hitting an electron.  If the photon has more energy than the electron can take, then the photon may continue through the material.  Also, the electron that got hit may emit a photon which may hit the next grid.  I do not thnk that Grey actually used a noble gas, only that he could have had he wanted to, and suggesting that you try it with a noble gas.

Photons are the momentum carriers (also called simply the "force carriers" of electromagnetism).

You can bet your ass that "electrons" are not coming off a coil that you hit with a monster pulse, it is not electrons that charge caps and batteries that are not connected to the circuit, and that they are not penetrating the oil dielectric of the Optical Generator, and also that they were not vaporizing the aluminum foil that Tesla held near his Magnifier coils.

Do you have a photomultiplier tube?  If not, I'll find th info on the Vortex1 RE detector. 

The re-triggering of semiconductor devices (especially optocouplers) is also not caused by electrons.

Come on Bro!  Time to move past the "electron hurdle"...

Quote from: Grumpy on 2009.12.18, 22:37:52

Come on Bro!  Time to move past the "electron hurdle"...

I don't think so,

There are some rules in QT/QED that explain the phenomena of secondary emission.
This is for example the pauli exclusion principle.
It states that no two identical fermions may occupy the same quantum state simultaneously.
Since electrons are fermions this rule boils down to the simple rule that no two electrons may exist at the same place at the same time.
So if one fires one electron at another one, the second one has to move because they cannot exist in the same place.
Try doing that with just one photon...
This is a good explenation how momentum is being transferred between particles.
It's like the guy that shoots a billiard ball aimed at the triangle formation and they all move because they cant exist at the same place.(kinetic)
You could compare the movement of the other balls with secondary emission.

Note *This is extremly Stiff as it has NO place for compression, you cannot squeeze more electrons into a box that is already full.(not exactly but it willdo in kid's classroom)


Now things can become tricky because bosons are said to be the real force carriers.
They transfer the interaction between particles.(radiation)
You mentioned particulary Photons.
They are the force carriers of an electromagnetic field correct.
Now we know from both the photovoltaic and the photoelectric effects that they are able to move electrons.

But Note *This is extremly flexible as this situation allowes compression.
You can squeeze more and more photons into a box...(laser etc.) Again.

So if i look at the gray tube and i do not like to use the word "probably" then i would say it runs on secondary emmision.
Electrons, not Photons.
Why? because you got to have one hell of alot of photons to do the same with just one electron...

Some of my test have shown that the spark accellerates electrons to a point that is far beyond the speed they could ever get in and around wire, where are the photons? there is some RF but it doesn't beat it, and the magnetic field confirms..Remember? i know you did that experiment,i have a good memory..I even remember you said you will never look at it this way again.....
If they do reach that speed close to a wire,it would evaporate...(sounds familiar?)
So these ultra high speed electrons hit the center anode which is filled with free electrons and they are launched like billiard balls towards the recieving grids.
Same principle is at work in Philco Pharnswort's Multipactor.

The impact of the secondary electrons change the charge of the recieving grids.
In this situation nature has to restore balance because there is a potential diffrence between the grids and the environment.
An unconventional flow of energy will result.
The grid capacitance only plays a part when AC/RF is used not when one uses high voltage DC.

So this is my oppinion about the Gray tube and what it does.
If you think you got better ways i suggest you try them.
You can't just poke others to try your ways.. they got ideas of their own.
If you think you can make it work then do so....at least that is what i am trying and i like to test my own things.

Marco.

Ps I will use noble gas in the PAGD and Plasmatron tubes,but not in the Gray tube.
It would be best if we manage to generate the effect in open air since evacuating tubes makes it harder.
And both paradoxes are explaind by Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

Let's leave the explanations to the physicist that get paid to figure it out.

Fine  ;)

It realy doesn't matter how it works or what it does,all that matters for me is making it work...
But i am going to do correa & chernetski first.

Marco.

Quote from: giantkiller on 2009.12.15, 22:13:25
Shows up alot of places.
If this configuration appears with alot of people who made claims, including Telsa(Ahem). Why does this not show up in the experimenters arena?
The perpetraitors of this design copied Tesla.
L1 is 1/4 the length of L2. This means that the L1 drive entails the electron clockwise spin or the magnetic part if the sine.

tesla states it is 1/4 wave of the INTRUPTION AKA FREQ OF OPERATION  not coils nor primary ...  pick a freq .. a resonant core at desired freq ..  then wind output about core ..

plain and simple ... 

you can get nutz and tune it mass to mass inductive imballance .. then go 1/4 wave  if your nutz enough ... 

lol

IST

verry much cb ant!

the tube marco has built is an eather spark gap .. 

non vaccume ..

the spark charges the cap or powers the load .. from the discharged cap via gap ..

quench the darn thing ! 

carefull

ist

you can do the same thing with a jt wound on a flyback .. and a aa battery ..

Quote from: Turbo on 2009.12.15, 18:51:14
Hi guy's  :)

Here are some pics of my conversion tube and the capacitors + oil filled transformers.
I have done some testing with intresting results. but more tests need to be done.

Also Here is a nice collection of pictures:

http://www.universalpower.webs.com/gallery/Edwin%20Vincent%20Gray/index.html (http://www.universalpower.webs.com/gallery/Edwin%20Vincent%20Gray/index.html)

Marco.

That first attachment shows a tube Ed Gray built, but it's not one of his Conversion Tubes.  That was an Imris Tube Gray experimented with for a while.  With the right lightning, there's a heavy wall, multi grid quartz cylinder inside the lantern glass.  And that Tube doesn't have a grid connection.  That was before my parent came out, showing the load can be connected directly to the grid.  (4,260,933).  Bragging rights.

Quote from: Turbo on 2009.12.18, 23:16:01
I don't think so,

There are some rules in QT/QED that explain the phenomena of secondary emission.
This is for example the pauli exclusion principle.
It states that no two identical fermions may occupy the same quantum state simultaneously.
Since electrons are fermions this rule boils down to the simple rule that no two electrons may exist at the same place at the same time.
So if one fires one electron at another one, the second one has to move because they cannot exist in the same place.
Try doing that with just one photon...
This is a good explenation how momentum is being transferred between particles.
It's like the guy that shoots a billiard ball aimed at the triangle formation and they all move because they cant exist at the same place.(kinetic)
You could compare the movement of the other balls with secondary emission.

Note *This is extremly Stiff as it has NO place for compression, you cannot squeeze more electrons into a box that is already full.(not exactly but it willdo in kid's classroom)


Now things can become tricky because bosons are said to be the real force carriers.
They transfer the interaction between particles.(radiation)
You mentioned particulary Photons.
They are the force carriers of an electromagnetic field correct.
Now we know from both the photovoltaic and the photoelectric effects that they are able to move electrons.

But Note *This is extremly flexible as this situation allowes compression.
You can squeeze more and more photons into a box...(laser etc.) Again.

So if i look at the gray tube and i do not like to use the word "probably" then i would say it runs on secondary emmision.
Electrons, not Photons.
Why? because you got to have one hell of alot of photons to do the same with just one electron...

Some of my test have shown that the spark accellerates electrons to a point that is far beyond the speed they could ever get in and around wire, where are the photons? there is some RF but it doesn't beat it, and the magnetic field confirms..Remember? i know you did that experiment,i have a good memory..I even remember you said you will never look at it this way again.....
If they do reach that speed close to a wire,it would evaporate...(sounds familiar?)
So these ultra high speed electrons hit the center anode which is filled with free electrons and they are launched like billiard balls towards the recieving grids.
Same principle is at work in Philco Pharnswort's Multipactor.

The impact of the secondary electrons change the charge of the recieving grids.
In this situation nature has to restore balance because there is a potential diffrence between the grids and the environment.
An unconventional flow of energy will result.
The grid capacitance only plays a part when AC/RF is used not when one uses high voltage DC.

So this is my oppinion about the Gray tube and what it does.
If you think you got better ways i suggest you try them.
You can't just poke others to try your ways.. they got ideas of their own.
If you think you can make it work then do so....at least that is what i am trying and i like to test my own things.

Marco.

Ps I will use noble gas in the PAGD and Plasmatron tubes,but not in the Gray tube.
It would be best if we manage to generate the effect in open air since evacuating tubes makes it harder.
And both paradoxes are explaind by Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

If you're going to look at this from the perspective of secondary emission, look at the Mercury vapor inside the Ignitron, and the possibility of an avalanche.  Gray always used sets of Ignitrons, good for 70,000 amps and suitable for commutation.  One turned the pulse on, then the other turned if off - just before the potential stopped increasing.  As Master Ivo mentions in his video about potential 'reversal'.

The matter of the Pauli Exclusion Principle is over simplified.  The quantum states which can't overlap depend on identical integral potential.  With a million volts, you could have a million quantum energy states.  (That's why it's so hard to extract electricity From Ball Lightning.  There's too many different voltages to work with).

And here's something I discovered while engineering my little Gray Tube: the Low Voltage anode rod doesn't have to be segmented by the Carbon resister; the Tube works just as good with a hole drilled all the way through the Carbon, which is slipped onto the rod, close to the ends of the grids.

You responded to a post that is over 10 years old

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.09.23, 03:23:17
You responded to a post that is over 10 years old

This is still a hot topic, globally.  And on my bench.  There is new information.  And other crap needs to be cleaned up.

I found a relevant paper on wake field acceleration.  The new test produced 5 GeV relativistic electrons with twenty cm of accelerating distance.  The term 'longitudinal fields' appears early in the recertation.  What this test achieved with laser energy pulling electrons along behind it is the exact same thing as what Gray's Conversion Tube does -- with a delay line -- when it imparts the higher potential to the heavy current of the battery's momentary pulse.  There is no "mysterious inflow" of energy from the surrounding essence.

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awr.1LqT9S1jt9gPqFZx.9w4;_ylu=Y29sbwNncTEEcG9zAzMEdnRpZANDT0NPNDJURVNUM18xBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1663985171/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2flasermatter.umd.edu%2fresearch%2fwakefield-acceleration%2f/RK=2/RS=qCjf_HN1RP4o6ke34JkX4K53dUE-

Jerry

QuoteAnd here's something I discovered while engineering my little Gray Tube: the Low Voltage anode rod doesn't have to be segmented by the Carbon resister; the Tube works just as good with a hole drilled all the way through the Carbon, which is slipped onto the rod, close to the ends of the grids.

Indeed, I used 1/4" copper clad gouging rod used by welders in my device. There fairly cheap(https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=gouging+rods&ref=nb_sb_noss) and I found the carbon in the carbon emitter in Gray's device wasn't a resistance it was a charge carrier/emitter. When we consider patents we must be aware that the goal is to hide what's important and only disclose enough information to protect our intellectual property.

For example, in many FE patents we may see one switch on one circuit leg labelled oscillator and another switch on another leg labelled on/off which is actually another oscillator. There switching both the (+) and (-) circuit legs simultaneously in or out of phase but they don't want you to know this so they use misdirection to hide or obscure the facts. As an inventor I know this because, no offense, I don't want you to know everything I know. Information and knowledge has value as another form of currency which allows some to do stuff others cannot. This is quite literally how "value" is defined...

This was why Gray called the carbon emitter in his discharge tube a resistance so nobody would give it a second thought and nobody to my knowledge did. Here we need to do a little research and use a line of reason based on the facts we know often working the problem backwards. For example, Gray had big problems with electrode erosion of his discharge tube conductors, why?. One was made of carbon and for anyone who does actual experiments like myself we know a HV capacitive discharge will cause massive electrode erosion, so why use carbon?. Well, because he had no choice and that was the only thing which would work in his device. I know this because I do a stupid amount of random experiments on everything. However if we didn't know through experiment a HV discharge blasts charged carbon as charge carriers from the point of discharge then?, well then were done and the line of reason/progression ends. 

I mean, did nobody notice the circuit energy flow terminates on the points of the electrode/emitters in the discharge tube then magically appear on the concentric rings surrounding said emitter terminating on the load circuit?. What did everyone think was happening?, obviously there must have been a translation of energy so how did said translation occur?. What was the mechanism present?, there are only a few mechanisms which could allow this to happen.

So here is a basic experiment you can do which I call doing our worst, not our best but our worst which is the opposite to our false idea of how we think things should happen. Use a HV 5kV+ minimum and 50kV is better, impulse from a big capacitor to try to blow your carbon electrodes apart. Do your absolute best to do the very thing you think you shouldn't be doing. You will find doing the thing everyone thought was the wrong direction was in fact the right direction, they just never bothered to try. Do your best to blow that mofo carbon electrode apart and your on the right track...

Regards
AC

Oh well, as long as the thread's already Lazarous'ed.... :P

Mark McKay did a presentation on Ed Gray's motors back in July and we did have one of the 'original' motors to analyze.  (using quotes for a reason)
Mark has probably done more than any other in terms of actually going through the history and timeline of everything of all Gray's work, interviewing all involved and hunting down the lost motors. We had some nice follow-up chats as well, he knows almost every detail off the top of his head. :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5N1O1jXt70

I'm paraphrasing significantly, but McKay was of the opinion that the actual discoveries+technology probably originated with Gray's Chief Engineer, Richard Hackenberger and another predecessor, that Gray himself was more of a salesman than inventor.  That basically the tech died with Hackenberger, and subsequent modifications+rewinds made to the motors in the 70's to 'fix' them accidentally destroyed whatever effects may have been present in the originals.  That the motors were rewound+redesigned by someone who didn't know the operating principles of the original.

I think if there is something to be discovered, the key would probably be understanding the 'popping coils' as they were the earliest and simplest demonstration pieces presented.  What were they demonstrating with such a simple setup?  We know it was high voltage, and we know it was 2 pairs of coils, and iron wire composing at least one coil (per McKay)

Posting a few pictures I took of the Purple motor, anyone please PM me if they want more+full-res pics. ;)

Well
We could invite Mark to the discussion?
His handle was "Spokane one " here I think ?
Been a while since we last spoke ( sorry Jerry I did not
Ring him today ...been real busy here getting ready for the winter!

Thanks
Chet
?

Hakasays
As always it's problematic because the actual "inventor" who designed the technology in question has not disclosed the operating process. As you imply, who actually invented the damn thing or owns it if not the person named in the patent or the investors?.

I think it's comical because I do the same thing offering advice to others who could pursue the technology claiming it as there own and to be honest I don't care. What I say is what it is and I understand when I say it this becomes a part of the public domain to be used as others want despite anything I may wish. I want nothing to do with what they do...

Gray's story is not uncommon and greed/human nature generally causes any organization to implode within. I saw this a few times and got out early before everyone involved tried to screw over or kill each other. We never really know a person until there is big money involved and it tends to change some people for the worse. This is why truly intelligent people don't get involved with assholes.

In essence once the organization implodes everyone claims only they knew what was really going on and everyone else was wrong about everything. Go figure, and apparently everyone was right and wrong in the same instance. Or like trump, everyone is a crook but apparently nobody had a clue what was going on or was involved. So everyone knows or nobody knows depending on there interest or the legality... ergo it's a shit show based on deception.

Do you understand how this works?, there are large numbers of really smart people who feed others information knowing they don't want to get involved because they know it always turns into a complete shit show ie. human nature. Like Tesla feeding countless people information who went on to do really cool things like antigravity and FE but ultimately failing in the end. In many cases we never know where the actual technology came from other than the usual he said/she said conjecture.

Regards
AC

Quote from: Allcanadian on 2022.09.23, 23:17:01
Jerry
Indeed, I used 1/4" copper clad gouging rod used by welders in my device. There fairly cheap(https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=gouging+rods&ref=nb_sb_noss) and I found the carbon in the carbon emitter in Gray's device wasn't a resistance it was a charge carrier/emitter. When we consider patents we must be aware that the goal is to hide what's important and only disclose enough information to protect our intellectual property.

For example, in many FE patents we may see one switch on one circuit leg labelled oscillator and another switch on another leg labelled on/off which is actually another oscillator. There switching both the (+) and (-) circuit legs simultaneously in or out of phase but they don't want you to know this so they use misdirection to hide or obscure the facts. As an inventor I know this because, no offense, I don't want you to know everything I know. Information and knowledge has value as another form of currency which allows some to do stuff others cannot. This is quite literally how "value" is defined...

This was why Gray called the carbon emitter in his discharge tube a resistance so nobody would give it a second thought and nobody to my knowledge did. Here we need to do a little research and use a line of reason based on the facts we know often working the problem backwards. For example, Gray had big problems with electrode erosion of his discharge tube conductors, why?. One was made of carbon and for anyone who does actual experiments like myself we know a HV capacitive discharge will cause massive electrode erosion, so why use carbon?. Well, because he had no choice and that was the only thing which would work in his device. I know this because I do a stupid amount of random experiments on everything. However if we didn't know through experiment a HV discharge blasts charged carbon as charge carriers from the point of discharge then?, well then were done and the line of reason/progression ends. 

I mean, did nobody notice the circuit energy flow terminates on the points of the electrode/emitters in the discharge tube then magically appear on the concentric rings surrounding said emitter terminating on the load circuit?. What did everyone think was happening?, obviously there must have been a translation of energy so how did said translation occur?. What was the mechanism present?, there are only a few mechanisms which could allow this to happen.

So here is a basic experiment you can do which I call doing our worst, not our best but our worst which is the opposite to our false idea of how we think things should happen. Use a HV 5kV+ minimum and 50kV is better, impulse from a big capacitor to try to blow your carbon electrodes apart. Do your absolute best to do the very thing you think you shouldn't be doing. You will find doing the thing everyone thought was the wrong direction was in fact the right direction, they just never bothered to try. Do your best to blow that mofo carbon electrode apart and your on the right track...

Regards
AC

Gray's original Switching Tube can be seen on the motor presentation cart.  The heavy tube grid rings do appear to surround a thick inner rod which looks a lot like carbon.  Some researchers think this carbon threw off electron which would condence on the grids.  These electrons moving radiantly can, in fact, blast the carbon.  For instance, firing my defibrillator circuit through a spark plug causes it to explode.  This is because the carbon inside the ceramic is what breaks apart.  The circuit produces a bi directional potential. 

This exploding carbon has nothing to do with Gray's much later Conversion Tube.  Looking at that patent, can you see an arc at each end of the steel High Voltage annode rod?

The CSET patent drawing shows a constant arc in the Overshoot Switch.  One end of this arc is electrically connected to the Tube's center rod.  And the other end of the rod touches the Tube's arc.  So this is wired like one version of Tesla's Hairpin circuit.  So, we know the rod gives off Radient Energy with each pulse.  But this is not the same as a sheet of electrons streaming outwards.

Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022.09.25, 20:01:55
The CSET patent drawing shows a constant arc in the Overshoot Switch.  One end of this arc is electrically connected to the Tube's center rod.  And the other end of the rod touches the Tube's arc.  So this is wired like one version of Tesla's Hairpin circuit.  So, we know the rod gives off Radient Energy with each pulse.  But this is not the same as a sheet of electrons streaming outwards.

What makes you think that the CSET tube is the 'core' of the device, and not the coil configuration or core material or HV power supply / etc?
Would not a conventional vacuum tube or thyratron/magnetron show a similar effect when impulses are applied?

Jerry

QuoteGray's original Switching Tube can be seen on the motor presentation cart.  The heavy tube grid rings do appear to surround a thick inner rod which looks a lot like carbon.  Some researchers think this carbon threw off electron which would condence on the grids.  These electrons moving radiantly can, in fact, blast the carbon.  For instance, firing my defibrillator circuit through a spark plug causes it to explode.  This is because the carbon inside the ceramic is what breaks apart.  The circuit produces a bi directional potential.

This exploding carbon has nothing to do with Gray's much later Conversion Tube.  Looking at that patent, can you see an arc at each end of the steel High Voltage annode rod?

As an inventor, who knows countless other inventors and consulted on many patents our job is to protect our intellectual property...period.

For example, "I claim this electrode is steel, but it could be made of any other materials" but in fact steel is the poorest example and barely works 10% of the time. Then I claim X is a switch but it's actually an oscillator and Y is an over-voltage gap but it's actually a switch so others have literally no idea what I'm actually doing. You don't honestly believe any real inventor would tell everyone exactly how there invention works so any fool could replicate it do you?. Why not say I buried 500k in my backyard but it's probably not where that mound of fresh dirt is... I mean really?.

You can't honestly believe these brilliant inventors who worked decades on advanced energy systems could possibly be that naive do you?.

AC

Some guy thinks he invented something but in the end he screwed up and it never worked.

But the legend is built around it. You can't reproduce the thing because the guy who popularized it is not the real inventor but one of his buddies who wants to do business.
Bad luck, because the real inventor is dead and we have nothing from him.
And again bad luck, because the real prototypes that were supposed to work were transformed not because they didn't work, the explanation is too obvious, but surely to improve them, so not only do we not have the detailed plans, but also not the relics that would have worked.

And we still see today beautiful setups full of electronics, which surely required a lot of work to build, imitating in appearance and without working either, the legendary machine.

When you look at these stories with a bit of hindsight, it's really funny folklore. We could make a modern version of the search for the Holy Grail, with lots of adventures, extraordinary phenomena, secrets, and magic coils.
Ah, I'm told that's already been done. See :

The Real History of the Ed Gray Motor, PART 1, by Mark McKay, $27
The Real History of the Ed Gray Motor, PART 2, by Mark McKay, $27
The Real History of the Ed Gray Motor,COMBO PACK PARTS 1 & 2, by Mark McKay, $37

The only thing left to do is to make a movie like Indiana Jones.
:)

Another day, another poster attempting to turn a research+investigation thread into an off-topic commentary/rant. C.C

Except for a local library it's hard to find knowledge+information that doesn't have a price on it.  Even academia is quite guilty of this (see attached)
IMO open source is a better ideal to strive for though. :)

Hakasays

QuoteAnother day, another poster attempting to turn a research+investigation thread into an off-topic commentary/rant. C.C

Except for a local library it's hard to find knowledge+information that doesn't have a price on it.  Even academia is quite guilty of this (see attached)
IMO open source is a better ideal to strive for though.

Agree 100% and it irritates me to no end that we have to pay excessive fee's to access science we probably supported as taxpayers. In fact almost all the science even remotely considered cutting edge is now pay to access. Couple this with the fact that a new study revealed that possibly 50% of new science papers have no peer review and could be fake. It's kind of ironic, a real scientific study determined many new scientific studies have no or faked peer review and may be used for profit and/or to support profit making interests. Ergo, most likely a scam...

It begs the question... is there anyone not trying to cheat the system for profit?. Of course with academia were not talking about something as petty as a questionable $27 book but billions of wasted tax payers dollars globally.

AC

Folks,

IF someone needs the article from Nature (shown above), it is freely downloadable from the Nature site itself:

        https://www.nature.com/articles/356739a0.pdf (https://www.nature.com/articles/356739a0.pdf)     C.C

Gyula

Gyula
Following through on links...
https://www.nature.com/articles/515480a
Publishing: The peer-review scam

https://phys.org/news/2018-10-real-fake-hoodwinks-journals.html
'Real' fake research hoodwinks US journals'

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2015.18202
Faked peer reviews prompt 64 retractions

https://blog.degruyter.com/fact-or-fake-the-question-of-anonymity-in-peer-review/
Fact or Fake? The Question of Anonymity in Peer Review

It's not rocket science, people cannot be trusted because we don't really know who they are, there real biases or beliefs, there vested interests or whether there actually trustworthy. This is why Feynman implied no authority can be trusted no matter how competent others claim they are. There must always be factual unbiased checks and balances otherwise it generally always becomes corrupt.

AC

Back on topic:

Whenever a Radiant, longitudinal electrostatic flash goes through a piece of metal, a charge is placed onto the surface of the metal.  This is because electrons are entrained by the field and moved past the metal, into the air.  Then, commutated remaining potential flows from Gray's grids to the load.  The goal is to convert the Tube's input discharge into biphasic energy at the output.  (The same kind of energy which produced the Radiant flash).  This is done by using individual inductive lead out wires, from each of the two grids, to the Tube's output terminal.  The wire from the inner grid should have a sharp inductive kink, from your thumbnail.

Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022.09.28, 02:27:30
Back on topic:

Whenever a Radiant, longitudinal electrostatic flash goes through a piece of metal, a charge is placed onto the surface of the metal.  This is because electrons are entrained by the field and moved past the metal, into the air.  Then, commutated remaining potential flows from Gray's grids to the load.  The goal is to convert the Tube's input discharge into biphasic energy at the output.  (The same kind of energy which produced the Radiant flash).  This is done by using individual inductive lead out wires, from each of the two grids, to the Tube's output terminal.  The wire from the inner grid should have a sharp inductive kink, from your thumbnail.

It's interesting that the CSET patent was a much later invention (1987) while the actual motors and popping coils and other demonstrations were over a decade earlier (1975 and earlier).

Why do you think the expensive, custom-built motors might have been abandoned and Gray had gone a completely new direction in the 80's?
The only significant change I can see was the death of the lead engineer Hackenberger in 1980, and the ensuing motor rewinds/modifications by Nelson Schlaft thru to '85 or so.

Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.09.28, 03:03:12
It's interesting that the CSET patent was a much later invention (1987) while the actual motors and popping coils and other demonstrations were over a decade earlier (1975 and earlier).

Why do you think the expensive, custom-built motors might have been abandoned and Gray had gone a completely new direction in the 80's?
The only significant change I can see was the death of the lead engineer Hackenberger in 1980, and the ensuing motor rewinds/modifications by Nelson Schlaft thru to '85 or so.

My take is that Investors paid Gray to engineer the motors, then kept the blueprints.  Some fringe applications would benefit from the high torque and compact size.  (The same reason I researched it).  The much later, seemingly unrelated CSET was Gray's attempt to simplify the power supply.  The motor carts fed the capacitor bank with a heavy, complex 24V-3kV transformer.  A biphasic transformer like that isn't needed with the Power Tube.  And the patent represents that the Tube can also drive a transformer, which doesn't have the Plasmoid discharge channels.  (Hackenberger mentioned that only four or five percent of the EMA motor's output derived from the coil/static repulsion.)  Neither did Gray's first motor, or the 10 Hp starter motor, which was tested to be OU.  And it can also super charge a capacitor, which is the subject of my current tests.

Also, I feel that rewiring the motor coils with bigger wire was a mistake.  The disc popping "partial schematic" states that the wire size "can't be too small".  I'm sure the Hp went down with bigger wires.  If the Investors knew this, the motors left scattered around were decoys.

Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022.09.28, 04:19:09
My take is that Investors paid Gray to engineer the motors, then kept the blueprints.  Some fringe applications would benefit from the high torque and compact size.  (The same reason I researched it).  The much later, seemingly unrelated CSET was Gray's attempt to simplify the power supply.  The motor carts fed the capacitor bank with a heavy, complex 24V-3kV transformer.  A biphasic transformer like that isn't needed with the Power Tube.  And the patent represents that the Tube can also drive a transformer, which doesn't have the Plasmoid discharge channels.  (Hackenberger mentioned that only four or five percent of the EMA motor's output derived from the coil/static repulsion.)  Neither did Gray's first motor, or the 10 Hp starter motor, which was tested to be OU.  And it can also super charge a capacitor, which is the subject of my current tests.

Also, I feel that rewiring the motor coils with bigger wire was a mistake.  The disc popping "partial schematic" states that the wire size "can't be too small".  I'm sure the Hp went down with bigger wires.  If the Investors knew this, the motors left scattered around were decoys.

This might be useful to you (save a few bucks); I forget the exact source but McKay stated with some confidence that the original Gray motor(s) used iron wire in their builds in some portion of the design, that was replaced with copper in the 80's rewinds.
I'm sure GK will get a kick out of that one ^-^ >:-)

Quote from: Allcanadian on 2022.09.27, 21:32:58
...
Agree 100% and it irritates me to no end that we have to pay excessive fee's to access science we probably supported as taxpayers. In fact almost all the science even remotely considered cutting edge is now pay to access. Couple this with the fact that a new study revealed that possibly 50% of new science papers have no peer review and could be fake.
...

I agree with this point of view. More than the fakes, the main problem is that most of the articles don't bring anything new. It's still embarrassing when it's supposed to be research. Authors rephrase the same things, and the more they produce, the more they can be quoted, which helps their career! Where it becomes fake is when they do it pretending that there is something new when it is just the well-known rehashed. And this is very common.

Sometimes you don't know if it's a fake or a mistake, but it's a big one. Let's take for example this paper where an experiment is presented with a fancy title, supposed to show a new electromagnetic principle: Vector Potential Coil and Transformer (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7112483%20Vector%20Potential%20Coil%20and%20Transformer.pdf)
Even I, and I think most of you too, can understand where the big mistake is. I'll put you on the track, just note that the 2 loops of his measuring circuits for V1 and V2 are crossed by the fluxes of each turn of his wound solenoid, so we have a classical induction. So how many bogus or fake papers are there like this one? I think the number is considerable.

As for the price tag, don't forget that you have sci-hub (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sci-Hub), thanks to our beloved Alexandra Elbakyan. The last address that works is https://sci-hub.se or https://sci-hub.ru. You just have to put the DOI number, or even the complete https address where the paying document is available.  There are even browser extensions for chrome and maybe firefox that allow one-click download from the publisher's page.
It's time to practice with the pdf link I passed above :). Not everything is there, especially recently published papers, but most physics and engineering publications are there.

Quote from: gyula on 2022.09.27, 22:36:12
Folks,

IF someone needs the article from Nature (shown above), it is freely downloadable from the Nature site itself:

        https://www.nature.com/articles/356739a0.pdf (https://www.nature.com/articles/356739a0.pdf)     C.C

Gyula

And it is even worse today. It should be noted, however, that the things to be discovered are less obvious, more subtle and complicated today than in the nineteenth century when we started from scratch.

Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.09.28, 10:02:12
I agree with this point of view. More than the fakes, the main problem is that most of the articles don't bring anything new. It's still embarrassing when it's supposed to be research. Authors rephrase the same things, and the more they produce, the more they can be quoted, which helps their career! Where it becomes fake is when they do it pretending that there is something new when it is just the well-known rehashed. And this is very common.

I do believe, in the case of E.V. Gray's system, I did say there is new information.  My career hasn't been tainted by publishing something which is "fake".  Two arcs energizing the central rod isn't widely recognized.  And you can say "thank you" for my willingness to share what I've learned about drilling all the way through the Carbon.  This "research" is neither well known, if at all, nor something being "rehashed".

Still to come (without a Naysayer's disrespectful diatribe [seems like it's always the same two or three guys disrupting the discussion]) is that the Carbon resister increases the voltage.

Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.09.28, 10:02:12
I agree with this point of view. More than the fakes, the main problem is that most of the articles don't bring anything new. It's still embarrassing when it's supposed to be research. Authors rephrase the same things, and the more they produce, the more they can be quoted, which helps their career! Where it becomes fake is when they do it pretending that there is something new when it is just the well-known rehashed.

That's why I enjoy Mark McKay's contributions, since he's actually does the footwork tracking down and interviewing all the people involved, neighbors family/etc, tracking down machines and their history/modifications over the decades, and making sure that any machines onhand are extremely well photographed, measured, and documented.
That, and he's not the kind to keep secrets; always happy to answer questions and share anything he's gleaned over the years. :)

Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022.09.28, 12:57:06
I do believe, in the case of E.V. Gray's system, I did say there is new information.  My career hasn't been tainted by publishing something which is "fake".  Two arcs energizing the central rod isn't widely recognized.  And you can say "thank you" for my willingness to share what I've learned about drilling all the way through the Carbon.  This "research" is neither well known, if at all, nor something being "rehashed".

Still to come (without a Naysayer's disrespectful diatribe [seems like it's always the same two or three guys disrupting the discussion]) is that the Carbon resister increases the voltage.

I agree with the principle.   The more well-traveled a given path is in science, the less room there is to find unique/unpredictable effects.
Personally, I think the motor are more credible since it was actually lab-tested and is much more articulate.  If you compare the two patents you see a clear difference in detail+quality.

If there is one known critical factor in Gray tech IMO it would have to be high voltage.  The thyratrons and HV supplies and expensive pulse capacitors; if there was a cheaper/simpler way to do it, surely they would have.   The 'purple motor' IIRC was 5-6kv.

Also Jerry, I did find a couple more McKay compilations:
https://tesla3.com/ed-gray-by-mckay-page-1/
https://tesla3.com/ed-gray-by-mckay-page-2/

Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022.09.28, 12:57:06
...
And you can say "thank you" for my willingness to share what I've learned about drilling all the way through the Carbon.  This "research" is neither well known, if at all, nor something being "rehashed".

Still to come (without a Naysayer's disrespectful diatribe [seems like it's always the same two or three guys disrupting the discussion]) is that the Carbon resister increases the voltage.

You can say thank you when something useful comes out of it. We are all here to share our knowledge and research, I also participate without asking anyone to say thank you.

Few would probably be ready to do it :), because in general the knowledge I provide is in opposition to the inconsistencies, the misinterpretations of banal things and the outdated ideas that many imagine. Preferring to believe than to know, is more comfortable and less tiring than to make the effort to study and challenge one's own ideas.

All skeptics believe in radio waves, which they have never seen. It is not enough to call a skeptic "Naysayer" to prove that what is considered impossible is possible. It is enough, as Hertz did, to demonstrate it to a skeptic, I say to a skeptic, not to a believer who has no intellectual requirements in his acceptance of the slightest assertion.

Gray's tube has been going on for over 30 years. Those who maintain for years not a hypothesis but their assertion that a new phenomenon exists, without ever being able to do what Hertz did, to prove it to the skeptics, have no place in experimental research nor in anything related to science and technology, they do not understand the method, they ignore the doubt.

One asserts when one knows, not before, and one knows that one knows only after having brought the experimental proof to those who doubt and that they have recognized it as such by a consensus. Doubt is the foundation of the scientific method and by elimination, the only way to find reality, and consequently to make useful products that work.

Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.09.28, 13:35:27
That's why I enjoy Mark McKay's contributions, since he's actually does the footwork tracking down and interviewing all the people involved, neighbors family/etc, tracking down machines and their history/modifications over the decades, and making sure that any machines onhand are extremely well photographed, measured, and documented.
That, and he's not the kind to keep secrets; always happy to answer questions and share anything he's gleaned over the years. :)


I agree with the principle.   The more well-traveled a given path is in science, the less room there is to find unique/unpredictable effects.
Personally, I think the motor are more credible since it was actually lab-tested and is much more articulate.  If you compare the two patents you see a clear difference in detail+quality.

If there is one known critical factor in Gray tech IMO it would have to be high voltage.  The thyratrons and HV supplies and expensive pulse capacitors; if there was a cheaper/simpler way to do it, surely they would have.   The 'purple motor' IIRC was 5-6kv.

Also Jerry, I did find a couple more McKay compilations:
https://tesla3.com/ed-gray-by-mckay-page-1/
https://tesla3.com/ed-gray-by-mckay-page-2/

I do have those Mark McKay documents.  And I'm grateful that Mark sent me everything he did, by snail mail.  Without that, I would still have most of what I do, I just wouldn't be able to correlate mine with what Gray had.

The motor which was tested was an off the shelf motor/generator, with the addition of a Hall Effect sensor.  (It still had the two Ignitrons).  It was after this motor was tested that funding was approved for developing the EMA motors.  The EMA motors were never tested to be OU, or even high Hp.  Gray's OU came from his power supply.  Specifically, his dual primary Tesla coil, with its internal pulse forming equipment.  HV storage caps are expensive, but LV pulse caps, storing the same Joules, would be much worse, and more cumbersome.  LV would still be better, as far as taking longer to discharge, but I'm not aware that anyone has gone this route.

Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022.09.28, 16:10:10
I do have those Mark McKay documents.  And I'm grateful that Mark sent me everything he did, by snail mail.  Without that, I would still have most of what I do, I just wouldn't be able to correlate mine with what Gray had.

The motor which was tested was an off the shelf motor/generator, with the addition of a Hall Effect sensor.  (It still had the two Ignitrons).  It was after this motor was tested that funding was approved for developing the EMA motors.  The EMA motors were never tested to be OU, or even high Hp.  Gray's OU came from his power supply.  Specifically, his dual primary Tesla coil, with its internal pulse forming equipment.  HV storage caps are expensive, but LV pulse caps, storing the same Joules, would be much worse, and more cumbersome.  LV would still be better, as far as taking longer to discharge, but I'm not aware that anyone has gone this route.

Thanks for the clarification Jerry. :)

One more Q, where do you think the 'asymmetry' come from in the power supply?  In other words, what kind of mechanic/principle do you think might be involved?  And why doesn't it show up often in 'normal' EE works?

Hakasays

QuoteAlso Jerry, I did find a couple more McKay compilations:
https://tesla3.com/ed-gray-by-mckay-page-1/
https://tesla3.com/ed-gray-by-mckay-page-2/

Thanks for the links, that's an interesting site. I found most of the information strange because most of the details are pointless and there is no progression to a conclusion which is often the case.

For example, as an inventor I know no inventor just decides to use over 5kV to drive a motor for no apparent reason, why?. From the time line it's obvious Gray started popping coils and found higher voltage impulses were more efficient and practical just as I did. Then the problem becomes switching because nobody builds high voltage (20kV+) high current (100 A+) electronics. To me it seems obvious whatever Gray discovered was learned when popping coils and the motor means nothing because it's simply a series of timed popping coils.

It's also important to understand many other inventors were claiming similar energy gains with impulse based solenoid coils/motors before Gray was even born. So we know the electronics, switching tube/rotary motor topology Gray was using are not required. Which as I implied, makes the information in most of the Gray motor articles kind of pointless. They go on and on analyzing thousands of little details which have literally nothing to do with the heart of the technology.

In effect, whenever we want to understand what an inventor was really doing we go back to the beginning. The discovery in it's simplest form is always made at the beginning and everything after the fact is built on the initial discovery. This is literally how the process of invention works...

AC

Quote from: Allcanadian on 2022.09.29, 12:37:59
In effect, whenever we want to understand what an inventor was really doing we go back to the beginning. The discovery in it's simplest form is always made at the beginning and everything after the fact is built on the initial discovery. This is literally how the process of invention works...

My talk with Mark McKay was exactly that.  Reverse-engineering and trying to break everything down to their simplest components+principles. :)

First to set the stage, an excerpt:

Quote"In the workshop, a six-volt car battery rested on a table. Lead wires ran from the battery to a series of capacitors which are the key to Grays's discovery. The complete system was wired to two electromagnets, each weighing a pound and a quarter.

The first demonstration proved that Gray was using a totally different form of electrical current – a powerful but "cold" form of the energy. As the test started, Gray said: "Now if you tried to charge those two magnets with juice from the battery and make them do what I'm going to make them do, you would drain the battery in 30 minutes and the magnets would get extremely hot."

Fritz Lens activated the battery. A voltmeter indicated 3,000 volts. Gray threw a switch and there was a loud popping noise. The top magnet flew off with powerful force. Richard Hackenberger caught it in his bare hand. What happened was that Gray had used a totally different form of electrical current – a "cold" form of energy. The fact that Hackenberger caught the magnet and was not burned was evidence enough of that."

This was my thought-process with McKay assisting + filling in details as we went along:

* So, the earliest demonstration was the 'popping coils' demo, which led to the large investment to machine all the EMA motors.
* McKay describes the 'popping coils' as two electromagnets, with each electromagnet having 4 wires coming out.
* From this lets assume that each coil half is actually an equal/matched pair of coils.  Hence the 4 wires.
* Lets reason from the progression that Gray motors are in-fact 'spinning popping coils' and that they both operate on the same unknown principle.
* I noticed and McKay confirmed that the rotor on the Purple motor only had a 2 wires to the rotor brushes.
* From this, we might extrapolate that the 4 coils in the original 'popping coil' demo is actually 3 coils.  So now we're down to 3 coils used of the 4.  6 wires...
* Lets reason that the high voltage capacitors and thyratrons are necessary components, and that the Ignitron/Thyratrons are intended to provide short impulses to the system.  McKay said that witnesses report corona and tremendous arcing and electrostatic fields (hair standing up like in a Vandegraff).
* McKay commented on the use of Iron wire (I believe from interviewing one of the original machinists that helped build the original motors?).
* Lets reason from this that iron wire is also a critical component, and thus should be present in at least one of the three original 'popping coils'.

So now we're down to 3 coils, 1 on one side and 2 on the other, with at least one winding ferromagnetic.  Triggered by a high-voltage impulse of 3kv in some unknown configuration. O0


* We note the interesting results in delayed-pulse propagation for a pair of wires with a scope (I forget who did this test, will edit w/ link when I find it)
* We also note that ferromagnetic wire adds a parametric effect.  The inductance of the wire decreases as the current running through it increases.  That makes the result very complex and difficult to model.  Even without adding a 2nd and 3rd coil.
* Besides being complex, it's also relatively unexplored territory.  Very few experimenters work with voltage impulses over 1kv, and even fewer work with iron wire.
* High voltage is also consistent with a need to overcome high resistance (potentially other reasons as well)

Anyway, I hope some of that made sense C.C :P   I don't even know if there's anything there, but it was fun playing detective, and McKay's a cool guy to talk to.

What is meant by "popping coil"?

Iron wire is specifically used to achieve a delay in a very specific method of pulse compression.  This method will cause a popping sound in coils.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.09.29, 15:44:36
What is meant by "popping coil"?

Iron wire is specifically used to achieve a delay in a very specific method of pulse compression.  This method will cause a popping sound in coils.

Interesting, I did not know about an accoustic popping sound with delayed coil pairs. ???

'Popping coil' was just the name of the demonstration, I'm not sure if it refers to the popping action or the popping sound.

Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.09.29, 16:32:47
Interesting, I did not know about an accoustic popping sound with delayed coil pairs. ???

'Popping coil' was just the name of the demonstration, I'm not sure if it refers to the popping action or the popping sound.

PeterAE explored it for a while.

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=272.0
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=37.0
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=366.0

More details from Poynt99:

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=272.msg70437#msg70437

Thanks much Grumpy, I was having a hard time finding that thread :)

Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.09.29, 17:51:05
Thanks much Grumpy, I was having a hard time finding that thread :)

That thread will lead to a working TPU, if followed.

You need that pulse, sequential pulsed in a circle(edit: or some other method to make it rotate), a static magnetic field perpendicular to the rotating pulse field, and a collector coil in the right orientation (capacitive or inductive).

As an aside, I'm trying to work out a simpler design than the AVEC, which is expensive and time-consuming to build, but modular.  So, I'm looking at this compressed pulse again, coincidentally.

Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.09.29, 02:33:04
Thanks for the clarification Jerry. :)

One more Q, where do you think the 'asymmetry' come from in the power supply?  In other words, what kind of mechanic/principle do you think might be involved?  And why doesn't it show up often in 'normal' EE works?

The asymmetry comes from the varying potentials on the concentric grid cylinders of the multi gap condensers shown as 25 and 26 in the motor patent.  These require non classical energy to function.  And this surely doesn't come from the illustrated power supply.  I mean, how does waveform 19A turn into 21A?  Something is missing from the picture.

The other image shows Gray's very first motor.  (edit: image courtesy of Mark McKay). A basic, unmodified, 110 V AC unit.  It's powered by the same Black Box the underwater light bulb is plugged into.  Other pictures provided by Mark McKay show this box is powered by a car battery, but also contains a six V motorcycle battery.  Two bucking 12 V pulse trains, one fed through the 6V battery, produces a constant potential difference which vibrates up and down.  (I've also seen this depicted as over/under sign waves, for a shape resonance application).  THIS is the non classical energy.

If we intend to replicate Gray's CSET, the first thing we need to consider is his statement - in the patent - that it is a "proposed invention".  It isn't something to replicate, or even reverse engineer.  He laid out the various basic elements, but it's up to US to extend the engineering effort.  WE have to take the summation of what he learned, then figure out how to modify and enhance his idea, to make it do what we, ourselves understand that it can do.

I've been working on this for quite a long time, even before the Internet came out and I found out he had the four patents.  I'm attaching a picture of my latest bench layout.  I do have a completed Tube.  (Not shown).  And I'm willing to share my discoveries, and what I've learned.  But only with a respectful audience.

Jerry
If you start a build topic
I can assure you it will be respectful here ( forum terms of service at a builders bench )

Plus you will be moderator!

Respectfully
Chet K

Quote from: Chet K on 2022.09.30, 21:53:49
Jerry
If you start a build topic
I can assure you it will be respectful here ( forum terms of service at a builders bench )

Plus you will be moderator!

Respectfully
Chet K

Thanks, Chet.  That might be a good option, although I don't know how long I'll be here.  This Ed Gray stuff is my primary area of research.  Other than Centrifugal ReAction Propulsion, which most people think is 'CRAP'.  That would be off topic here, anyway.

Best Regards

One place Gray missed the boat, so to speak, was his assertion in the Tube patents that the carbon resistor can be either internal or external to the Tube.  With his motor carts, he showed a carbon rheostat plugged into one of the holes in the side of the control cabinet.  (The Demo Cart motors are not complete without these current limiting resistors closing the various circuits).  The LV current contributes to the Overshoot potential, and this current must be regulated, to prevent inefficiency, and even potential damage to the capacitors during the recharging pulses.  This rheostat box he was holding was around four inches on each side, and contained a number of thin carbon discs tensioned against a spring, with greater pressure between the discs resulting in lower resistance.  The resistor in the patent drawing is depicted as a number of discs (one option) so this provides a clue to the CSET's anticipated diameter.

The four point spark gap switch in the circuit diagram will work with an external resistor.  But my tests have shown that it is an essential internal element of the CSET itself.

The first picture shows Gray's four point gap switching element and how the yellow arc transfers to the grid, on each side of the internal arc, when the grid is commutated to a polar mass, such as a coil or tape measure, using a single wire connection.

The second picture shows my test component, without the carbon, or any input connection to the LV rod.  It just has the grid wire coming from the T-tap between the system capacitor and the 'one way energy path' diode, for which Gray used an Ignitron.

Next, I have the carbon slipped over the LV rod, and the grid input.  It still has the faint sparks between the grids and the end of the HV rod.  But there's also a spark between the rods, with no LV connection.  The longer, stronger spark from the T-tap connection at the grid,  over to the piece of charcoal, then through the carbon, and the spark gap, proves that the carbon resistor does increase the spark's voltage.  (The weak sparks between the grids and the HV rod are still there).

This demonstrates that the two grids have different potentials when the LV rod is connected.  (Fourth picture).  Energy has more carbon to travel through to reach the outter grid, from the contact points between the carbon and the LV rod.  So the outter grid has a higher potential than the inner grid.

For pulse forming applications, in a delay line, a higher potential should begin slightly later than a lower one.

Part of the Scientific Method is to report your findings.

That's about all I've got at this point.  I'm still working, and I may, or may not, open source the next part of it.

Next time someone says there is no such thing as zero-point energy see this recognition.

The text above (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=18.0;attach=45767) is anything but a proof of FE.

A patent is not a proof, the patent office does not build any machine to verify them.
An investor is not a proof, more than one has been fooled in the past, and all of them regarding free energy.

It is really with this kind of nonsense that we understand that the requirement of proof is totally insufficient in the FE movement, and that we will never get machines that work from people who are satisfied with it and where showing off is enough.

Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022.10.01, 21:54:04
That's about all I've got at this point.  I'm still working, and I may, or may not, open source the next part of it.

I've been slowly accumulating extra car batteries.  Now that I have four of them, I'll add the third electrode to my Overshoot Switch and test for energy recovery, as claimed in Gray's GB patent.  Hackenberger mentioned in an interview that only five percent of the energy was actually consumed, and that 95% could be recovered.

Dear Marvin Cole & Richard Hackenburger  (E. V. Gray) Researchers,

I would like to say that Mr. Hakasays and Dr. Aadrian Marsh together proposed a serious working model for the operation of all the "Gray" devices. The Electrostatic Generator, the CSET, and the series of pulse Motors. They did this at the Energetic convention held in Spokane, WA around July 11, 2022.

If you have a moment this is the concept:

A section of iron wire or rod is excited with a current large enough to bring it to super saturation. Then this current is quickly interrupted through a high resistance switching mechanism. The iron element has to be isolated from all other components during this transition. Mr. Hakasays maitains that under these conditions the iron core effectively disappears. Dr. Marsh then points out that all of the classical energy stored in the original magnetic field has to go somewhere. Most likely, he conjectures, it converts to a huge electrostatic field that quickly propagates in all directions. The engineering challenge with this technology is harvesting, storing, and utilizing the resultant pulse.

For me this model explains all the technical and historical information I have been able to collect over the last 20 years.  So, moving forward I'm going to be exploring this concept in detail. Right now I've reproduced a Stubblefield coil to see how it responds to a 3 kV pulse from a 40 uF capacitor. bank The primary is copper (#12 AWG) and the secondary is iron garden wire (#18 AWG). Both 250' long. It is interesting but the inductance of the iron winding is 10 H at a resistance of 20 Ohms. I can see why "Gray" had to use such high excitation voltages.

Using this concept it is not to difficult to see how this idea was employed with the CSET and the Electrostatic Generator.

I can now see why the original "popping coils" had four conductors. One winding was the low resistance copper primary that allowed maximum current flow. The iron winding was an isolated secondary but wired to be shorted with the opposing coil connected in series. When the saturation current was reached the circuit was opened, and all Hell broke loose for a few microseconds. Each of the previous devices did the switching in different ways. For the repulsion motor it was the huge electro static pulse that drove the rotor. The other two devices attempted to extract some kind of classical or "Radiant Energy" - which turned out not to be as effective conversion process.

I'm sure there is more to this than this simple proposal. If you see any merit in this concept go for it and make a bee-line to the patent office. But be aware if it does work anywhere near the performance of the "Gray" technology then plan for the Powers that Be to snatch it from you with no compensation.

Thank you for you time and curiosity.

Mark McKay, PE EE

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.07, 06:24:10
Dear Marvin Cole & Richard Hackenburger  (E. V. Gray) Researchers,

I would like to say that Mr. Hakasays and Dr. Aadrian Marsh together proposed a serious working model for the operation of all the "Gray" devices. The Electrostatic Generator, the CSET, and the series of pulse Motors. They did this at the Energetic convention held in Spokane, WA around July 11, 2022.

If you have a moment this is the concept:

A section of iron wire or rod is excited with a current large enough to bring it to super saturation. Then this current is quickly interrupted through a high resistance switching mechanism. The iron element has to be isolated from all other components during this transition. Mr. Hakasays maitains that under these conditions the iron core effectively disappears. Dr. Marsh then points out that all of the classical energy stored in the original magnetic field has to go somewhere. Most likely, he conjectures, it converts to a huge electrostatic field that quickly propagates in all directions. The engineering challenge with this technology is harvesting, storing, and utilizing the resultant pulse.

For me this model explains all the technical and historical information I have been able to collect over the last 20 years.  So, moving forward I'm going to be exploring this concept in detail. Right now I've reproduced a Stubblefield coil to see how it responds to a 3 kV pulse from a 40 uF capacitor. bank The primary is copper (#12 AWG) and the secondary is iron garden wire (#18 AWG). Both 250' long. It is interesting but the inductance of the iron winding is 10 H at a resistance of 20 Ohms. I can see why "Gray" had to use such high excitation voltages.

Using this concept it is not to difficult to see how this idea was employed with the CSET and the Electrostatic Generator.

I can now see why the original "popping coils" had four conductors. One winding was the low resistance copper primary that allowed maximum current flow. The iron winding was an isolated secondary but wired to be shorted with the opposing coil connected in series. When the saturation current was reached the circuit was opened, and all Hell broke loose for a few microseconds. Each of the previous devices did the switching in different ways. For the repulsion motor it was the huge electro static pulse that drove the rotor. The other two devices attempted to extract some kind of classical or "Radiant Energy" - which turned out not to be as effective conversion process.

I'm sure there is more to this than this simple proposal. If you see any merit in this concept go for it and make a bee-line to the patent office. But be aware if it does work anywhere near the performance of the "Gray" technology then plan for the Powers that Be to snatch it from you with no compensation.

Thank you for you time and curiosity.

Mark McKay, PE EE

Heya Mark, long time no see ;D

I overviewed our 'investigative chat' in this post, hopefully I didn't stray too far from reality:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=18.msg101180#msg101180

Quote
A section of iron wire or rod is excited with a current large enough to bring it to super saturation. Then this current is quickly interrupted through a high resistance switching mechanism. The iron element has to be isolated from all other components during this transition. Mr. Hakasays maintains that under these conditions the iron core effectively disappears.

A bit off, but close enough for rock-and-roll.

My personal bias is towards Dollard-Steinmetz mathematics relating to parametric variation.  That the changing parameters of space is where the asymmetry in every device comes from.   Nowadays I look at everything in terms of that relation, whether it be changing inductance of iron or changing permittivity of a dielectric.'

When an iron wire core is partially saturated by another current, what happens to the field when an impulse is applied to the iron wire coil?   There is a two-pronged effect, because not only is this impulse current generating a magnetic field, but it's also saturating the iron, reducing permeability.
What happens to the contained magnetic flux in the iron if the coil's inductance goes from 100mH to 10uH in a few nanoseconds?  The flux would have to be ejected from the core at equal velocity, no?


Thanks for stopping by Mark, I'm sure there's a bunch of us here with some oddball questions that will certainly help them in their work :P O0

Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.10.07, 14:19:55
Heya Mark, long time no see ;D

I overviewed our 'investigative chat' in this post, hopefully I didn't stray too far from reality:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=18.msg101180#msg101180


A bit off, but close enough for rock-and-roll.

My personal bias is towards Dollard-Steinmetz mathematics relating to parametric variation.  That the changing parameters of space is where the asymmetry in every device comes from.   Nowadays I look at everything in terms of that relation, whether it be changing inductance of iron or changing permittivity of a dielectric.'

When an iron wire core is partially saturated by another current, what happens to the field when an impulse is applied to the iron wire coil?   There is a two-pronged effect, because not only is this impulse current generating a magnetic field, but it's also saturating the iron, reducing permeability.
What happens to the contained magnetic flux in the iron if the coil's inductance goes from 100mH to 10uH in a few nanoseconds?  The flux would have to be ejected from the core at equal velocity, no?


Thanks for stopping by Mark, I'm sure there's a bunch of us here with some oddball questions that will certainly help them in their work :P O0

Hakasays and Mark,

I have a question regarding the highlighted above.  In a standard transformer core material, when saturated, the flux leaves the core to the surrounding airspace as you well know, but then returns to the core as the mmf subsides.  What happens in this case of the saturated iron wire?  Is there evidence the that flux re-enters the wire or ......... ?

Regards,
Pm

Dear PM,

The "Gray" technology employed open core designs, akin to the core in a standard ignition coil. I understand that this configuration forces most of the classical magnetic energy into the air space around the core. So, what happens in a classical power transformer does not really apply here directly. From my reading the electrical impact of the open core is to reduce the coupling constant k between the windings. In the ignition coil this allows the secondary to oscillate at a different frequency than the primary. I understand that the optimum k value is around 0.56 to promote 3rd harmonic addition. You have to really butcher a standard power transformer to achieve that low of a value.

At the moment I really doubt that harmonic addition was a goal here. I think the intent was to get more field outside of the core/wire.

The Pulse Motors, the CSET, and the Electrostatic Generator, all use open core designs. I'm sure that the actual physics of the "Radiant Event" will turn out to be more complicated.

Mark McKay, PE

Hi Mark, good to talk with you again.

That's interesting, about using iron for Tesla's Hairpin circuit.  (Tesla used a "stout copper bar", bent into a narrow horseshoe shape).  I've been using a galvanized steel rod in my Switching Tube, for convenience.  I'm curious if I'll get the same preliminary results with a copper rod for the HV anode?

Also, the coil in my cone popping video has an air core - no part of this inductor attracts a magnet.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_wzrAFAz0eQ

Mark,

Very interesting!  Thanks you for your response!

regards,
Pm

Nikola Tesla "The Problem Of Increasing Human Energy"
Publication:
CENTURY MAGAZINE
Date: 1900-06-01

Obtaining Sun  energy from ambient source using iron.  O0

Quote from: forest on 2022.10.07, 20:43:05
Nikola Tesla "The Problem Of Increasing Human Energy"
Publication:
CENTURY MAGAZINE
Date: 1900-06-01

Obtaining Sun  energy from ambient source using iron.  O0

What I remember from reading that article some time in the past, was the crux of that dissertation, mentioned late in his discussion, was his discovery that Nitrogen can be fixated by applying 100 kHz, at 120 kV, to an electrode.  (The so called 'Flaming Sword').  (Somewhere else he said it was 100 kV).  I do remember Tesla powered his electric car by pushing two iron rods into a box.  That worked day OR night, and, in my carefully considered opinion, involved a LENR effect, rather than Radiant Energy from the Sun.

Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.09.29, 14:59:18

Dear Hakasays

"So now we're down to 3 coils, 1 on one side and 2 on the other, with at least one winding ferromagnetic.  Triggered by a high-voltage impulse of 3kv in some unknown configuration."

The coil configuration of the EMA4 (The machine tested by Crosby Research) was composed of two electromagnets opposing an identical set of coils. Each pair had it own chopper (later a transistor) power supply. These made up the "Major" and "Minor" coils. The "Minor coil can be seen in the GD photos. It appears to be a simple two wire electromagnet.
The "Major" electromagnet has three wires coming from it, but is actually two windings.  One of the windings is connected internally  to the iron laminated core so that the opposing cores on the stator can arc to the rotor cores and thus the arc can be struck and then stretched. If the rotor speed is above 500 rpm the arc is quenched and the "Radiant Event" can take place.

The Kansas City era motors did away with the "Minor" coils.  I suspect the purpose of the "Minor" electromagnet was to provide some current regulation and to shift the magnetic field off center - for some unknown reason. I suspect that the larger electromagnet coils in the post 1979 motors were large enough that enough inductance was already present. The magnetic offset was achieved (about 10 degrees) by machining a slight angles in the opposing cores. These changes reduced the cost of construction greatly. I wonder if these modifications worked as well as the original?

The original popping coils (I believe I have photos of three of them) don't have cores. Some do have spacers between the opposing coils that are some kind of plastic, most likely Delrin. If you have ever worked with popping coil mass drivers you want to get the opposing coils as close to each other as possible if you are dealing with a purely magnetic effect. I wonder if the proposed "Radiant Event" is some kind of electrostatic process then maybe these added dielectric discs amplify the effect like an iron core amplifies the magnetic effect. This is pure speculation but I have no other ideas as to why these spacers were provided.

I say it would be safe to step over the "Minor" coil after we know just how much inductance is needed in the main coil.

Mark McKay PE

Quote from: partzman on 2022.10.07, 15:13:20
Hakasays and Mark,

I have a question regarding the highlighted above.  In a standard transformer core material, when saturated, the flux leaves the core to the surrounding airspace as you well know, but then returns to the core as the mmf subsides.  What happens in this case of the saturated iron wire?  Is there evidence the that flux re-enters the wire or ......... ?

Regards,
Pm

I think in a normal transformer, the core is saturated directly proportional to the current flow.  Energy is stored in the parametric change and released when released.  Linear and symmetric (except for the saturation and hysteresis losses).

I'm not sure exactly what happens yet, mechanically, or what the exact ideal arrangement might be.   The overarching principle though is that we're changing the parameters of space for a signal in-transit.  Analogous to having a water balloon and squeezing it while water is shooting out the nozzle.  Or changing the mass of an object as it is being lifted/dropped.  Or changing the spring constant of a spring as it is being compressed+expanded.
There's probably more to it, but I like this approach because it's conceptually straightforward and maintains consistency with all standard electrical engineering formulas.

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.07, 17:52:01
The Pulse Motors, the CSET, and the Electrostatic Generator, all use open core designs. I'm sure that the actual physics of the "Radiant Event" will turn out to be more complicated.

Mark McKay, PE

I suppose it HAS to be fairly complicated, otherwise everyone would already have it. :P

BTW Mark I've been wondering, do you remember who/where you came across the 'iron wire' component in your EV Gray research?

Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.10.08, 02:21:45

BTW Mark I've been wondering, do you remember who/where you came across the 'iron wire' component in your EV Gray research?

Hakasays,

That piece of information came from a man named Kenneth Hawkins around 2004. I ran into him on the phone after I located Gary's lawyer Joe Gordon. Mr. Hawkins sent me the first promotion video of Gray's presentation in 1986 from Counsel, ID. No one had ever seen that information before. Since then two more videos have shown up that were made in Texas.

As I understand it Mr. Hawkins and Norm Wooten worked together on Free Energy projects however they had a big falling out over ownership of one of their devices and have not gotten back together since. I believe that it was Mr. Hawkins that made the trip to Dodge City to recover the Black & White Motors, the Start Motor, fragments of a large popping coil (the Space shuttle model), a power supply. and the #3 motor case (which I display in my living room as a plant holder). It was Joe Gordon that told them where to go and who to talk to. I would guess it was in these field discussions that he picked up on the iron wire idea. Mr. Hawkins also said that "Gray" used mica capacitors. however its hard to find large capacity mica capacitors. Mr. Wooten went on to make the 2000 Gray Motor presentation in Miami.

Since then I have attempted to contact Mr. Hawkins with no luck. I have developed a lot of specific questions about his adventure. All this equipment was sold to Al Francouer for $5K.

So, I sat on this information for years until I could find out where it might fit in.

Mark McKay, PE

Look at the principle of operation and not the politics.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.08, 06:21:27
Look at the principle of operation and not the politics.

If you eliminate the politics from FE, i.e. the urban legends, the frauds and the conspiracy theories, there won't be much left (but the best). ;D

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.08, 04:45:31
Hakasays,

That piece of information came from a man named Kenneth Hawkins around 2004. I ran into him on the phone after I located Gary's lawyer Joe Gordon. Mr. Hawkins sent me the first promotion video of Gray's presentation in 1986 from Counsel, ID. No one had ever seen that information before. Since then two more videos have shown up that were made in Texas.

As I understand it Mr. Hawkins and Norm Wooten worked together on Free Energy projects however they had a big falling out over ownership of one of their devices and have not gotten back together since. I believe that it was Mr. Hawkins that made the trip to Dodge City to recover the Black & White Motors, the Start Motor, fragments of a large popping coil (the Space shuttle model), a power supply. and the #3 motor case (which I display in my living room as a plant holder). It was Joe Gordon that told them where to go and who to talk to. I would guess it was in these field discussions that he picked up on the iron wire idea. Mr. Hawkins also said that "Gray" used mica capacitors. however its hard to find large capacity mica capacitors. Mr. Wooten went on to make the 2000 Gray Motor presentation in Miami.

Since then I have attempted to contact Mr. Hawkins with no luck. I have developed a lot of specific questions about his adventure. All this equipment was sold to Al Francouer for $5K.

So, I sat on this information for years until I could find out where it might fit in.

Mark McKay, PE

You are my favorite historian, thanks Mark :)

BTW, Giantkiller is another poster here that uses iron garden wire in a lot of experiments.  He's more into the Ed Leedskalnin Coral Castle and SM TPU work but there is a surprising amount of overlap between the various disciplines.

We're finally getting some good information coming in, with the possibility of moving forward.  I don't see any reason to rebuild my Tube, to replace the HV anode rod with copper.  With another experiment, I've gotten Radiant sparks coming off SS electrodes.

Next, I'll build *my* version of the electrostatic generator, to see if I can verify my understanding of what constitutes the non classical energy.  What I've been doing so far is just combining EMF with CEMF.  This works on some level, but I suspect there may be more to it than that.

Here's a couple of pics of some more of my test circuits.  Both incorporate a phase shift, but the larger one also has a voltage difference.  (That one was vandalized a little by my fine furry felines, so it's not as neat as it once was).  These both use a 25 ohm, 250W power resistor.  I'm not really sure this is the right collimating value, but that's all the surplus house had.  Gray's power supply, on the demo carts, used a smaller component, as he was working with 12V, for that part of it.  I'll see what happens when I connect the resistor's output to a battery powered cap, as Gray did on his carts.

Dear All,

Here are some other people who worked with Iron wire (or Rods for Mr. Benitez). Wyatt Prentice was an Electrical Engineer working for the Railroad in Canada. He was working on Land to Train wireless telegraph. In that work he discovered the patented process, however it was a commercial flop because of the size requirements. It should be noted in his patent he discloses that he used telegraph wire (he probably had a lot in his garage). Telegraph wire is #10AWG iron wire with a heavy coat of zinc.

It should be noted that the 1/2 mile of iron wire has an arc gap on each end. Except for the length this is very close in concept to what Mr. Volland  and Gary McGratten have worked with and can be found in the "Gray" 1985 CSET patent.

Mark McKay, PE

Dear All,

I would like to upload my July presentation for the benefit of those who are not familiar with the "Gray" technology. However it is a pdf file 7.8 MB in size. This posting service doesn't seem to like a file that large. Does anyone know what the file limit is? I can easily break it up in to smaller sub units.

The subject deals with the Hackenburger "Purple Motor", which I consider to be the Zenith of this technology. To bad it was butchered in 1981 by a well meaning technician. Assuming this motor actually worked, I know it actually ran (before the butcher job) but have no data about its OU performance.

For those of you that do decide to view the slides from the presentation I can provide additional schematics, photos, and of course a preponderance of speculations. There is also a huge volume of political debauchery that surrounds this subject.

For those of you who want to hear my Golden Tone that accompanied the presentation, then Aaron Maraikumi of the Energetic Forum has made (or will make) a downloadable file available for a fee. (around $25). Don't tell him, I'm making this available to the members of this group for the purpose of promoting the advancement of this technology.

Mark McKay, PE

Easy no signup no email or anything else needed - just upload and you get a link :  https://www.sendspace.com/

Quote from: e2matrix on 2022.10.09, 20:33:29
Easy no signup no email or anything else needed - just upload and you get a link :  https://www.sendspace.com/

Dear e2matrix,

There must be a little more to it than that. I push the "Upload" button after selecting the file and all it does is stall.

Mark McKay, PE

Mark
You could drop Peter a note in message board (administrator  Peterae )
I know he has been working on forum ( actually an ongoing task )
He will offer advice,
late over in UK ATM... He has a vet busy work schedule , he will reply ( some one else may offer solutions
In the meantime!

Respectfully
Chet K

We will try this again with a smaller file parts

Mark McKay

Well, it seems the system can handle at least a 2.5 MB file, but no more than 2 files at a time. Part 2 got lost along the way last time.

Mark,
In the beginning of this video back in 2012, you speak of "cold current", and that you believe it to be particulate with a short lifespan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-M0xKQTHdw

Have you determined what "cold current" is?

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.09, 03:34:04
Dear All,

Here are some other people who worked with Iron wire (or Rods for Mr. Benitez). Wyatt Prentice was an Electrical Engineer working for the Railroad in Canada. He was working on Land to Train wireless telegraph. In that work he discovered the patented process, however it was a commercial flop because of the size requirements. It should be noted in his patent he discloses that he used telegraph wire (he probably had a lot in his garage). Telegraph wire is #10AWG iron wire with a heavy coat of zinc.

It should be noted that the 1/2 mile of iron wire has an arc gap on each end. Except for the length this is very close in concept to what Mr. Volland  and Gary McGratten have worked with and can be found in the "Gray" 1985 CSET patent.

Mark McKay, PE

Thanks for uploading that file, Mark.  That should lay to rest any doubts about using Iron for Radiant Energy.  Twin antenna wires in the foreground are indicative of biphasic energy.  Plus, the tapers on both ends underline the importance of using individual lead out wires from the CSET grids.

@everyone:

Here's an image from the "motor found" video showing what I'm replicating with my double diode T-tap circuits.  The output wire from the collimating resistor goes to the big cap.  (The value of this resistor may have to be determined through substitution).  I've previously seen that exotic energy can drive a shape resonance effect.  My feeling is that this will dramatically reduce the capacitor's charging time, allowing for rapid pulse output to the special transformer.  (3,000 p/sec).

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.09, 23:44:45
Mark,
In the beginning of this video back in 2012, you speak of "cold current", and that you believe it to be particulate with a short lifespan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-M0xKQTHdw

Have you determined what "cold current" is?

Dear Mr. Grumpy,

The short answer, No I have not.

Unfortunately I have not been able to develop or discover a process that reliably generates the non-classical novel energy we are looking for. Dr. Tesla's "Radiant Energy" was claimed by him to be a particle. Whatever experiment he used to prove this property has not been disclosed.

The cold aspect comes from reports of how the Hendershot device operated and how the electromagnets in the EMA4-E1 behaved during operation. E.V. Gray made a big deal of this aspect of this technology, be he had no clue as to why it was manifested or how it really related to classical physics (if at all). I am also told that the original Sweet VTM got cold during operation as well. Graham Gunderson was hired by a private party to vet a similar technology and established that during operation that device got cold as well. In fact he is now working on his own system that sucks ambient heat energy out of the environment to produce classical electricity. Apparently he claims that he has all the math to prove this process is legit within the Standard Model. The real issue is "Can you make Money with it?"

So, not having anything better to speculate on thinking of a cold particle with a short life time made sense at the time. Now day's, I have no idea what is being reported on. I do think we have a reasonable chance to re-create the process that might cause this release or transformation.  What comes out of it will be Ph.D. thesis material for for high energy particle studies for years. Perhaps it might be a classical particle (or wave) in a a exceptional excitation state.  It might be something new or one of Ken Shoulders "Charge Clusters". If I get fortunate enough to generate these things in quantity I shall then attempt to figure out what they might be. But really, that kind of research requires a three order magnitude increase in the sophistication of instrumentation.

Good question though. It gives me headaches in the evening when I think about it to much.

Mark McKay, PE (Fire Alarm Engineering)

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.10, 01:04:16
Dear Mr. Grumpy,

The short answer, No I have not.

Unfortunately I have not been able to develop or discover a process that reliably generates the non-classical novel energy we are looking for. Dr. Tesla's "Radiant Energy" was claimed by him to be a particle. Whatever experiment he used to prove this property has not been disclosed.

The cold aspect comes from reports of how the Hendershot device operated and how the electromagnets in the EMA4-E1 behaved during operation. E.V. Gray made a big deal of this aspect of this technology, be he had no clue as to why it was manifested or how it really related to classical physics (if at all). I am also told that the original Sweet VTM got cold during operation as well. Graham Gunderson was hired by a private party to vet a similar technology and established that during operation that device got cold as well. In fact he is now working on his own system that sucks ambient heat energy out of the environment to produce classical electricity. Apparently he claims that he has all the math to prove this process is legit within the Standard Model. The real issue is "Can you make Money with it?"

So, not having anything better to speculate on thinking of a cold particle with a short life time made sense at the time. Now day's, I have no idea what is being reported on. I do think we have a reasonable chance to re-create the process that might cause this release or transformation.  What comes out of it will be Ph.D. thesis material for for high energy particle studies for years. Perhaps it might be a classical particle (or wave) in a a exceptional excitation state.  It might be something new or one of Ken Shoulders "Charge Clusters". If I get fortunate enough to generate these things in quantity I shall then attempt to figure out what they might be. But really, that kind of research requires a three order magnitude increase in the sophistication of instrumentation.

Good question though. It gives me headaches in the evening when I think about it to much.

Mark McKay, PE (Fire Alarm Engineering)

My latest idea of what "cold current" and "radiant energy" (That Tesla spoke of) is virtual particles "borrowed" from space.  This requires certain conditions be met.

Tesla's RE patent indicated the RE is produced by "space" (from the sky, even in the dark), a spark gap (his patent shows a curved reflector), and a Lenard tube.  All of these definitely indicate that RE is particulate even if temporary.

Back in the mid 2000's we were provided information on the TPU of Steven Mark on another OU forum by a user named Spherics.
His information has years of posts here but one basic method for production of RE is as follows:

A copper wire coil of at least 1000 feet, wound as a Brooks coil for high self-induction.
Around this coil, wind about 4 layers of heavier wire.  Supply this outer coil with DC of at least 24vdc.
Pulse this Brooks coil with a pulse that has a Vs high enough that voltage drop of at least 1500v occurs.
This coil will produce a field the greatly strengthens the magnetic field of the out coil.
I used to have a video of this with 10kv pulses, showing the burst on the outer coil when scoped.

Spherics exposed a few other ways that this RE occurs.

If you think this may be related I can catalog the methods for you to explore further.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.10, 01:39:28

My latest idea of what "cold current" and "radiant energy" (That Tesla spoke of) is virtual particles "borrowed" from space.

Dear Mr. Grumpy

Didn't Stephen Hawking's expound on this idea in his theories on black holes and "Hawking" Radiation. I understand that the concept of "borrowed" from space is part of the standard model for virtual particles and a process that allows the quarks in protons to stay glued together. (Along with 200 other particles). So borrowed energy is now main stream (at least in Quantum Mechanics).

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.10, 01:39:28

Tesla's RE patent indicated the RE is produced by "space" (from the sky, even in the dark), a spark gap (his patent shows a curved reflector), and a Lenard tube.  All of these definitely indicate that RE is particulate even if temporary.

That is a start but keep in mind that high frequency RF can also benefit from a curved reflector. I don't recall just what the classical experiment was that proved that photons were particles. I believe it has something to do with double slits. It will probably be a while before we can apply this technique to "Radiant Energy" because we currently don't have a reliable generator.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.10, 01:39:28

Back in the mid 2000's we were provided information on the TPU of Steven Mark on another OU forum by a user named Spherics.
His information has years of posts here but one basic method for production of RE is as follows:

A copper wire coil of at least 1000 feet, wound as a Brooks coil for high self-induction.
Around this coil, wind about 4 layers of heavier wire.  Supply this outer coil with DC of at least 24vdc.
Pulse this Brooks coil with a pulse that has a Vs high enough that voltage drop of at least 1500v occurs.
This coil will produce a field the greatly strengthens the magnetic field of the out coil.
I used to have a video of this with 10kv pulses, showing the burst on the outer coil when scoped.

Spherics exposed a few other ways that this RE occurs.

I don't think we have testing procedures (yet) to establish if the observed phenomena was "Radiant Energy" or something else. According to Gary Vassilatos the output of the Tesla "Lenard Tube" was a laser like energy blast. Was Mr. Spherics able to demonstrate this kind of quality, say for 300 yards or so? If not then I would say he is on to something else.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.10, 01:39:28

If you think this may be related I can catalog the methods for you to explore further.

Right now I don't see where iron is used as an active element in the proposed process. I do wish him and his fellow researchers the best of luck in developing their discoveries. Thank you very much for the offer. Who knows, I could stumble on to something and come calling on  you very quickly.

Mark McKay

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.10, 05:23:21
Didn't Stephen Hawking's expound on this idea in his theories on black holes and "Hawking" Radiation. I understand that the concept of "borrowed" from space is part of the standard model for virtual particles and a process that allows the quarks in protons to stay glued together. (Along with 200 other particles). So borrowed energy is now main stream (at least in Quantum Mechanics).

I had no idea borrowing energy is mainstream.  Thanks for pointing this out.

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.10, 05:23:21
That is a start but keep in mind that high frequency RF can also benefit from a curved reflector. I don't recall just what the classical experiment was that proved that photons were particles. I believe it has something to do with double slits. It will probably be a while before we can apply this technique to "Radiant Energy" because we currently don't have a reliable generator.

We may have reliable ones, but they require some sort of verification which may prove difficult without knowing what exactly RE is.

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.10, 05:23:21
I don't think we have testing procedures (yet) to establish if the observed phenomena was "Radiant Energy" or something else. According to Gary Vassilatos the output of the Tesla "Lenard Tube" was a laser like energy blast. Was Mr. Spherics able to demonstrate this kind of quality, say for 300 yards or so? If not then I would say he is on to something else.

Lenard tubes are known to produce electrons.  Here is a replication where the builder says it behaves like beta radiation, and says it appears to be electrons.  He only used 12kv.
http://www.tuopeek.com/lenard.html

Here is an old article on the measurement of Lenard Rays, (attached), They used 160kv, list the max range is about 15 mm in air, and say the energy is about 60 electron kv.  It shows some Lenard ray "collectors".

I would guess that Tesla used much higher voltage and may have seen something other than electrons, especially if the range is much further.

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.10, 05:23:21
Right now I don't see where iron is used as an active element in the proposed process. I do wish him and his fellow researchers the best of luck in developing their discoveries. Thank you very much for the offer. Who knows, I could stumble on to something and come calling on  you very quickly.

Mark McKay

Spherics told us how iron wire is used as a delay element in a bifilar coil method used by Steven Mark in his TPU's.  PeterAE (one of the owners of this forum) explored this method for some time and verified that what Spherics said was correct to some degree.  With delays on one leg of the bifilar of about 180ns to 220ns, the applied pulses are compressed into a large narrow pulse.  It is quite easy to produce but also quite problematic as it affected anything near it (electronics/magnets).  The iron wire has to be away form the bifilar for it to work.  Any iron near the RE producing coil causes it to not work.  Note that bifilar coils used in this way make loud popping sounds when the delay is adjusted for maximum pulse peak.  This was with only 30v.  I can't imagine what KV's would do.

All of the methods of RE production that Spherics shared are low power compared to anything Tesla or Ed Gray did.  He used RE to interact with a magnetic field or gravity to induce a current in a coil.  He explained a couple of methods for RE detection, and ways to charge batteries and capacitors.  Spherics mentioned cold current, but never explained what it is.  Hence my initial question.

I'll put a quick pdf together of the RE stuff from Spherics.

I put the PDF of notes from what Spherics said about RE here:

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4335.msg101421#msg101421

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.10, 15:48:42
Spherics told us how iron wire is used as a delay element in a bifilar coil method used by Steven Mark in his TPU's. 

Well, that is interesting. So at least one version of the TUP employed iron wire for delay line control but was found to interfere with other parts of the circuit. Now I can add one more inventor that employed iron wire in their apparatus.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.10, 15:48:42
All of the methods of RE production that Spherics shared are low power compared to anything Tesla or Ed Gray did. 

Nathan Stubblefield is probably the undisputed master of low energy RE generation (if that is what he produced). The excitation power for his "Terminal Coils" came from the electromotive voltage difference between the copper and iron at 0.78 V (aka the Egyptian Battery). I suspect he placed several of these cells in series but probably not more than 24 VDC worth. The real magic was in the switching system (as it is today). He gave us good details of the coil construction but zip on the contacts that activated when the system current reached a certain level.

I hope I can observe some interesting responses with my exploration of current saturated iron coil windings in my Stubblefield replication coil.

I shall look forward to reading your material on Mr. Spherics work. Who knows another clue is a good clue.

Mark McKay

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.10, 22:08:40
Well, that is interesting. So at least one version of the TUP employed iron wire for delay line control but was found to interfere with other parts of the circuit. Now I can add one more inventor that employed iron wire in their apparatus.

Nathan Stubblefield is probably the undisputed master of low energy RE generation (if that is what he produced). The excitation power for his "Terminal Coils" came from the electromotive voltage difference between the copper and iron at 0.78 V (aka the Egyptian Battery). I suspect he placed several of these cells in series but probably not more than 24 VDC worth. The real magic was in the switching system (as it is today). He gave us good details of the coil construction but zip on the contacts that activated when the system current reached a certain level.

I hope I can observe some interesting responses with my exploration of current saturated iron coil windings in my Stubblefield replication coil.

I shall look forward to reading your material on Mr. Spherics work. Who knows another clue is a good clue.

Mark McKay

Steven Mark found out latter that he could wrap the iron wire delay pieces with the other coils if he wrapped all of them with a solenoid coil supplied with DC.  Apparently magnetizing the iron wire allows the compressed pulse to be produced in the bifilar coils, else the iron wire prevents it from occurring.

You have been working on this for many years. What is the status of your Ed Gray research today?

Did you ever reproduce the popping coils?

The Stubble field Coil didn't seem to come in.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.10, 22:15:12
Steven Mark found out latter that he could wrap the iron wire delay pieces with the other coils if he wrapped all of them with a solenoid coil supplied with DC.  Apparently magnetizing the iron wire allows the compressed pulse to be produced in the bifilar coils, else the iron wire prevents it from occurring.

There is probably something that needs to be explored further here.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.10, 22:15:12

You have been working on this for many years. What is the status of your Ed Gray research today?

I can share 47 Good ideas that didn't work. This latest one could turn out to be #48

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.10, 22:15:12

Did you ever reproduce the popping coils?

Yes, Three different versions, but none of them had iron wire. All I was able to get was COP's between 7% and 9%

Mark McKay

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.10, 22:46:58

Yes, Three different versions, but none of them had iron wire. All I was able to get was COP's between 7% and 9%

Mark McKay

How were they wound and how were they pulsed?

What was Ed Gray getting?

EDIT:
The static floating flux field would be what Spherics called a SEP coil (Static Ether Pattern)

Did you try a static magnetic field around the popping coils, or a DC offset so that the pulse is switched over a few hundred volts of DC?

Dear All,

There certainly seems to be a lot of interest in Reply #87 that shows part of the Power Supply that came with the Gold Motor.
Al Francouer of Canada provided those high resolution photos a few years ago. 114 downloads to date.

The attached phot is an index of the other photos that came with that series. Let me know if any of these hold the same degree of interest.

Spokane1

QuoteThe Stubble field Coil didn't seem to come in.

I don't think that coil will work as stubblefield intended.

It's very likely the stubblefield battery was similar to what McFarland Cook described as the two wire/one core version of his device. As well in the old days inventors had to be more ingenious because materials and technology were hard to come by. For example, many used copper and iron wire to perform more than one function. Inductor/transformer action, un-coated oxidized copper/iron wire can act as oxide surface rectifiers, if whetted by mineral/salt water a battery or all the above.

Even more ingenious was using multi-layer/multi-metal oxidized substrates to act similar to the doped layer/band gap of solar cell. As we now know certain solar cells having different doped layers can even work at night harnessing different kinds of energy.

That's the problem with inventors and we throw everything including the kitchen sink at a problem until something works. A normal person tends to see what they want to see but an inventor can sometimes see countless variations and possibilities. I mean, did anyone here entertain the possibility that the alternate copper/iron winding/layers could also act like an oxide layer rectifier?, probably not. Most think in terms of simple lumped sum elements not said element spread over the surface of another element in any number of different ways. It is more a defect of our modern age where we are taught habitual thinking and behavior which didn't exist 100 years ago.

That's the problem and the fun in these devices and patents because nothing is ever as it seems. It's like a big puzzle where the inventor has hidden many of the pieces and it's our goal to track them down...

AC

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.10, 22:58:25
How were they wound and how were they pulsed?

Standard solenoid wound. The first two versions had single windings. The last version was a little more complicated with three windings. The inner most winding was 200 turns. While the second and third were 200 turns bifilar wound. My intent was to have the potential for different winding patterns. All I found was that the performance depended upon the total Ampere-Turns.

Of course I went El-cheap-O and only used a single power supply. I also attempted various versions of interrupting the current, but that was on the primary side. I never thought of interrupting an isolated secondary winding. But by then my inspiration was grinding to a halt.

All I can do now is look back and consider all the mistakes I made.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.10, 22:58:25

What was Ed Gray getting?

E. V. Gray never set up a meaningful experiment. He would put together eye-candy demonstrations and then tell people how wonderful they were. The original demos prior to 1971 might have had some real zing in them. But after 1981 they were pure bogus. One example to be seen from the 1986 promotion video was the Space Shuttle model. That model weighed 45 lbs. and reached a height of about 9'. What he didn't disclose was that he was using a 1500 mfd capacitor charged to near 5 kV. If you do the math that comes out to a COP of about 2%. (Details came form his son Mark Gray).

There are other accounts of Mr. Gray popping a 2 lb. coil about 36", but the size of the storage capacitor was never disclosed. (and he was using two of them)

If something becomes of this iron wire exploration then I'm going to head right back into popping coil designs. They are simple to make and the energy in vs energy out is very easy to measure. After that then moving into a motor design would be the next step. I would prefer an opposing Burke design rather than the rotary approach that Hackenburger used.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.10, 22:58:25

The static floating flux field would be what Spherics called a SEP coil (Static Ether Pattern)

Did you try a static magnetic field around the popping coils, or a DC offset so that the pulse is switched over a few hundred volts of DC?

I never did anything that sophisticated. When looking at the 1973 shop photos of Mr. Hackenburger doing popping coil demos the component that is assumed to take the place of the Floating Flux Field on the motor is kind of remote from the location of the coils.  My present thoughts on the FFF is that it is an energy harvesting device that recharged the pulse capacitors from anomalous energy that escaped the "Radiant Event" process while the bulk of the kinetic energy was collected from physical repulsion.

There is a lot that can be done with added D.C. offset voltages. But right now I don't know what they do or why.

Mark McKay

Quote from: Allcanadian on 2022.10.10, 23:49:41

I don't think that coil will work as stubblefield intended.

It certainly will not work as Mr. Stubblefield intended. There is no electrolyte provided.
Right now it is the only coil I have that has an Iron winding. Close enough for garage scientist work.

un-coated oxidized copper/iron wire can act as oxide surface rectifiers, if whetted by mineral/salt water a battery or all the above.
[/quote]

Yes, I figure that the partial diode action is critical to Mr. Stubblefield's energy harvest system. I wonder if he was aware of that feature? Most likely this only worked at the lower current/voltage levels.

Quote from: Allcanadian on 2022.10.10, 23:49:41
Even more ingenious was using multi-layer/multi-metal oxidized substrates to act similar to the doped layer/band gap of solar cell. As we now know certain solar cells having different doped layers can even work at night harnessing different kinds of energy.

Good point, but I really doubt that Mr. Stubblefield was working with multi/layer substrates in 1898, but he could have when he was making those radiant heating plates for his cabin. To bad he suffered from some kind of terminal PTSD after all the family and business disappointments in his life.


Mark McKay

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.11, 00:26:20
Standard solenoid wound. The first two versions had single windings. The last version was a little more complicated with three windings. The inner most winding was 200 turns. While the second and third were 200 turns bifilar wound. My intent was to have the potential for different winding patterns. All I found was that the performance depended upon the total Ampere-Turns.

Of course I went El-cheap-O and only used a single power supply. I also attempted various versions of interrupting the current, but that was on the primary side. I never thought of interrupting an isolated secondary winding. But by then my inspiration was grinding to a halt.

All I can do now is look back and consider all the mistakes I made.

E. V. Gray never set up a meaningful experiment. He would put together eye-candy demonstrations and then tell people how wonderful they were. The original demos prior to 1971 might have had some real zing in them. But after 1981 they were pure bogus. One example to be seen from the 1986 promotion video was the Space Shuttle model. That model weighed 45 lbs. and reached a height of about 9'. What he didn't disclose was that he was using a 1500 mfd capacitor charged to near 5 kV. If you do the math that comes out to a COP of about 2%. (Details came form his son Mark Gray).

There are other accounts of Mr. Gray popping a 2 lb. coil about 36", but the size of the storage capacitor was never disclosed. (and he was using two of them)

If something becomes of this iron wire exploration then I'm going to head right back into popping coil designs. They are simple to make and the energy in vs energy out is very easy to measure. After that then moving into a motor design would be the next step. I would prefer an opposing Burke design rather than the rotary approach that Hackenburger used.

I never did anything that sophisticated. When looking at the 1973 shop photos of Mr. Hackenburger doing popping coil demos the component that is assumed to take the place of the Floating Flux Field on the motor is kind of remote from the location of the coils.  My present thoughts on the FFF is that it is an energy harvesting device that recharged the pulse capacitors from anomalous energy that escaped the "Radiant Event" process while the bulk of the kinetic energy was collected from physical repulsion.

There is a lot that can be done with added D.C. offset voltages. But right now I don't know what they do or why.

Mark McKay

How do you know iron wire was used?  Do you know for what purpose it was used?

Do you have a good photo of the early popping coils?

The DC offset, or encompassing coil with DC applied, is what you want the pulse to interact with.  Speculation: The impulse causes a change in density of "space/ether/aether/ZPE/Dirac Sea", and since you have already patterned it into a magnetic field, the magnetic field is now changed accordingly.  I know the magnetic field is stronger but not why. 

In Ed's patent he says that the delay coils are the same coils as the floating flux field.  His operating description sounds like these delay coils are pulsed more than the repulsing coils as he says the pulses charge the caps, but not in one pulse.

PeterAE's and Poynt99's compressed pulse work here:

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=272.msg70437#msg70437

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.10, 15:48:42
Spherics told us how iron wire is used as a delay element in a bifilar coil method used by Steven Mark in his TPU's.  PeterAE (one of the owners of this forum) explored this method for some time and verified that what Spherics said was correct to some degree.  With delays on one leg of the bifilar of about 180ns to 220ns, the applied pulses are compressed into a large narrow pulse.  The iron wire has to be away form the bifilar for it to work.  Any iron near the RE producing coil causes it to not work.  Note that bifilar coils used in this way make loud popping sounds when the delay is adjusted for maximum pulse peak.  This was with only 30v.  I can't imagine what KV's would do.

All of the methods of RE production that Spherics shared are low power compared to anything Tesla or Ed Gray did.  He used RE to interact with a magnetic field or gravity to induce a current in a coil.  He explained a couple of methods for RE detection, and ways to charge batteries and capacitors.  Spherics mentioned cold current, but never explained what it is.  Hence my initial question.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.10, 22:15:12
Steven Mark found out latter that he could wrap the iron wire delay pieces with the other coils if he wrapped all of them with a solenoid coil supplied with DC.  Apparently magnetizing the iron wire allows the compressed pulse to be produced in the bifilar coils, else the iron wire prevents it from occurring.

That would make sense if the iron wire was being saturated by the adjacent field(s).  Magnetic amplifiers are often biased with a constant-current source so that they rest right on the 'knee' of the BH curve.

In Spherics posts it always sounded like he used very short lengths of iron wire for delay, and not a coil made from it.  Does present us with a good future experiment though, testing bare iron vs iron saturated with a constant-current source or saturated with a neodymium magnet, to see what effect it has on this 'COMP' field.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.11, 02:10:11
How do you know iron wire was used?  Do you know for what purpose it was used?

See Post #76

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.11, 02:10:11

Do you have a good photo of the early popping coils?

Check out the attached paper. My analysis of the popping coils from 2011 and a lot of other speculation.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.11, 02:10:11
In Ed's patent he says that the delay coils are the same coils as the floating flux field.  His operating description sounds like these delay coils are pulsed more than the repulsing coils as he says the pulses charge the caps, but not in one pulse.

Mr. Grumpy, keep in mind that E.V. Gray didn't have the technical horsepower to effectively talk about the other peoples invention. He did pickup a lot of technical jargon to weave together a sales pitch, something he was good at.

Dr. Chavan wrote the patent for a fee in order to make investors think they had protection. Gray and the real people behind the scenes knew full well there was no way to protect this technology. They were hoping for one big buyout from a car company. Mr. Chavan was given original Marvin Cole mechanical drawings but not the details of the vibrator power supply nor the pole to pole arcing switching. There were a lot of other electrical details omitted as well. Dr. Chavan wasn't given all the technical facts either. He and is partner Dr. Mel Weston became board members hoping that the secret would be reveled to them - it was not. What Dr. Chavan didn't know he made up something that sounded good for the sake of the patent and his fee.

Years later he still kept the flame going for this technology. He was the one who inspired Mr. Reggie Garcia about this technology. Mr. Garcia eventually purchased the Purple Motor for around $50,000.

So, take all that technical description in the patents with a huge grain of salt.

Mark McKay

P.S. Here are some photos from the paper showing some of the assumed original Popping coils with their novel dielectric spacers. A lot more and others are shown in the Chapter 11 paper.

Then how could anyone ever reproduce Ed Gray's technology?

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.11, 03:29:29
Then how could anyone ever reproduce Ed Gray's technology?

Well Grumpy, that is a very good question. I might look like a fool for trying but at my age (72) who gives a rip?
First you have to start with a firm conviction that the disclosed process is:
1. Real
2. Produces a usable energy output at a substantial COP
3. Is composed of parts and materials available to the garage scientist.
4. Could be reproduced in part or whole within an acceptable budget.
The "Gray" technology as presented in D.S. Peter Lindemann's book "The Free Energy Secrets of Cold Electricity" seemed to meet these requirements. The main selling point was the 3rd party vetting of this technology. I dug into the company who did the evaluation and the reviewers who did the actual tests. I was convinced that the technology was real, and the reviewers were well qualified. The measured output was better than anything I had read about at the time.
Next came the years of interviews, experiments, reading, and soul searching. But I couldn't deny that these people were on to something powerful but for several reasons (like death) it fell from their hands. A common story in this business.

By collecting all the fragments, speculations, stories, political intrigue, and honest observations I was able to at least get a framework of what this technology was all about and what it was not. But none of this could make the leap from power supply components to a non-classical converter without some novel process that involved the parts on hand. (Or easily acquired)

The first theory breakthrough came from the McFreey paper that was attempting to explain the operation of the TPU device in terms of iron transmutation that was stimulated by a process call Acoustic Resonance that involved electron spin gyrations being upset by means of an RF burst. Well, the concept sounded interesting, but the critics panned it because there was no classical particle that met the energy profile described. Oh well, at the time there appeared to be an army of researchers working on TPU replications.
The idea of iron (or other metal) transmutation seemed interesting, so I collected writings on the subject. Even Dr. Tesla had his thoughts on the useful properties of iron wire. It became apparent that other inventors were using iron wire as well, but the method of stimulation appeared different.

A possible solution came together at the convention this last July with Mr. Hakasays and Dr. Marsh adding the missing pieces. The theory fits all the constraints I have observed. Now to see if it performs. It is not the end all be all. It is just one interesting possibility of a core process that I think is worth exploring. Maybe in a few months it will prove to be another bust.

Mark McKay

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.11, 04:45:19
...
First you have to start with a firm conviction that the disclosed process is:
1. Real
2. Produces a usable energy output at a substantial COP
3. Is composed of parts and materials available to the garage scientist.
4. Could be reproduced in part or whole within an acceptable budget.
...
Mark McKay

Mark,

Do you own one that has these properties?

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.11, 04:45:19

The first theory breakthrough came from the McFreey paper that was attempting to explain the operation of the TPU device in terms of iron transmutation that was stimulated by a process call Acoustic Resonance that involved electron spin gyrations being upset by means of an RF burst. Well, the concept sounded interesting, but the critics panned it because there was no classical particle that met the energy profile described. Oh well, at the time there appeared to be an army of researchers working on TPU replications.
The idea of iron (or other metal) transmutation seemed interesting, so I collected writings on the subject. Even Dr. Tesla had his thoughts on the useful properties of iron wire. It became apparent that other inventors were using iron wire as well, but the method of stimulation appeared different.

I had great interest in the McFreey paper as well.  I think McFreey saw anomalous excitation and extrapolated from his physics background that nuclear transmutation+decay was the best fit to explain it.  IMO the modus operandi is a combination of regular and parametric excitation.


One related thing I remember reading (may have been from you, Mark :P) was how the etymology of 'magnet wire' had changed by the early 1900's.
Before extruded oxygen-free copper wire was commonplace, magnet wire was often short for 'magnetic wire', or iron wire.  Which was by-far the more common element throughout much of the telegraph era.  Useful to know when researching patents and writings from that era. ;)

Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.10.11, 11:38:59
Mark,

Do you own one that has these properties?

Dear F6FLT,

No I do not own one of these. One was presented for testing at Caltech in May of 1972. It got ran through the metal shredder by the LA DA in 1973.
My quest is to recover this lost technology - and it has been a bitch of a job. Success is not guaranteed.

The attached drawing shows what the overall experimental evaluation method was. Many people today assume that the "Motor" produced classical electricity. It did not. It produced torque that was converted by a classical generator into classical electricity.

Mark McKay

Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.10.11, 13:12:43
I had great interest in the McFreey paper as well.  I think McFreey saw anomalous excitation and extrapolated from his physics background that nuclear transmutation+decay was the best fit to explain it.  IMO the modus operandi is a combination of regular and parametric excitation.

Yes, that was a whole new concept for me. That guy (or gal) was really thinking outside of the box. Even though the specific mechanism might have failed it provided food for thought as to a process that could explain the huge non-classical energy gains.

Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.10.11, 13:12:43

One related thing I remember reading (may have been from you, Mark :P) was how the etymology of 'magnet wire' had changed by the early 1900's.
Before extruded oxygen-free copper wire was commonplace, magnet wire was often short for 'magnetic wire', or iron wire.  Which was by-far the more common element throughout much of the telegraph era.  Useful to know when researching patents and writings from that era. ;)

That didn't come from me, but I will certainly put it into my lexicon of data points concerning iron wire history.

Mark McKay

Mark you are right about Tesla. Radiant energy is produced by his transmitters https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=GB&NR=190111293A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19011102&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

Quote from: forest on 2022.10.12, 17:51:06
Mark you are right about Tesla. Radiant energy is produced by his transmitters https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=GB&NR=190111293A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19011102&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

Dear Forest,

That UK patent seems to be a summary of devices Dr. Tesla patented starting in 1898 in the US.

I never could figure those devices out. It seems like something important is missing. With only classical circuit analysis at hand what he presented seemed trivial.
However, the Corium brothers did state that the coherer device he used was sensitive enough to detect his kind of energy directly. He had some way to treat the metal shavings to become more responsive to wireless transmission. He never did disclose the process. Just like he never reveled the secrets of his transmitter or the details of his single electrode transmission element later on.

If you can get some engineering direction out of those documents - then  more power to you. I'm sure they worked just as described for Dr. Tesla.

Mark McKay

Here's some more details about the testing protocol, from darkspeed's 2010 2-20 post in the Gray's Devices folder:

Researcher "Darkspeed" explored RE on his bench here years ago.  He used ignitrons and other pulse power devices.
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?board=85.0

The effects that magnetized stuff far from the coils is interesting too.

He had a thread about a "bulb of death" that was very interesting.
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=35.msg742#msg742

Notice the silver-carbon diode...

Here Darkspeed talks about the bulb making him puke:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=562.msg9462#msg9462

That's interesting.   I met someone in recent months who had silver in her charisma, something I've been trying to understand.  That and all the destructive effects that seemed to have entered into my life.  Including some "thousand year rain events" (according to the local paper), one of which resulted in the pickup camper being turned upside down and moved some distance to the NE.  (After the sideways rain reversed direction).

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.13, 01:40:48
Researcher "Darkspeed" explored RE on his bench here years ago.  He used ignitrons and other pulse power devices.
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?board=85.0

The effects that magnetized stuff far from the coils is interesting too.

He had a thread about a "bulb of death" that was very interesting.
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=35.msg742#msg742

Notice the silver-carbon diode...

Here Darkspeed talks about the bulb making him puke:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=562.msg9462#msg9462

Those are certainly interesting topics in their own right, but are not central to my present quest. The novel energy I'm looking for displays itself as a huge repulsion force. That is where the usable classical energy can be harvested. I don't know if "Grays" Cold Electricity is related to Dr. Tesla's Radiant Energy or if they a a vastly different horses. In the last chapters of Dr. Tesla's Radiant history it appears that that his kind of energy could be powerful and projected out of a "Lenard" type glass enclosure with enough magnitude to transmit kilowatts at a distance, or so the claims go. The amateur public reports of RE so far may do things at a distance but the effective energy levels seem very low.

I'm sure the researchers you mention have circuit elements that may be found in a device that might reliably generate a novel energy beam that we can call Radiant Energy. But right now there is no proof that Radiant Energy by itself is an OU process or just a different mode of energy transmission.

The "Gray" Cold Electricity, if it were really powerful by itself, would have been used directly rather than spending gobs of money and time developing a rotary converter. The "Cold" electricity may have had some interesting properties that made for good eye-candy demos but the real use was in exciting opposing coils to convert that "Cold" electricity into a powerful force or torque.

I'm going to take the rest of this space and attach some un related photos of the Hackenburger Power Supply. Our viewers really seem to dig hardware photos, no to so much white paper commentaries.

Thank you for your reading recommendations and the links to review them.

Mark McKay

I missed an important one.

Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022.10.12, 23:26:35
Here's some more details about the testing protocol, from darkspeed's 2010 2-20 post in the Gray's Devices folder:

Looking at some of the specs in the evaluation report, here are some quick figures:

     1,100 RPM
  ÷ 60 sec/minute
  = 18 1/3  rotations/sec

     3 shots/rotation
  = 55 shots/sec

     6,000 cps (non Hertzian)
  ÷ 55
  = 109 pulses/charge cycle

to bring the capacitor bank to operating potential.

P.S.:  Looking at that inverter with the red case, Mark, that looks like a one kW unit.  What do you estimate?  And HOW MANY hP does that kick over?

Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022.10.13, 05:03:52
Looking at some of the specs in the evaluation report, here are some quick figures:

     1,100 RPM
  ÷ 60 sec/minute
  = 18 1/3  rotations/sec

     3 shots/rotation
  = 55 shots/sec

     6,000 cps (non Hertzian)
  ÷ 55
  = 109 pulses/charge cycle

to bring the capacitor bank to operating potential.

P.S.:  Looking at that inverter with the red case, Mark, that looks like a one kW unit.  What do you estimate?  And HOW MANY hP does that kick over?

Jerry,

1 kW is equal to about 1.25 HP. In Electrical Engineering you roughly figure 1 HP per kW to cover all the incidental transmission losses from the utility connection to the actual load.

Keep in mind that the Crosby Research Report was based upon the EMA4-E1 which was a 9 pole machine that employed a funky firing order (defiantly not the one listed in the patent commentary).  If you look at the drawings that show how the capacitors are connected relative to the rotating contacts you get a different picture of its operation. To me it appears that for three positions both sets of opposing electromagnets are fired. Then the next six positions are fired with only one electromagnet. This switching action is mediated by the moving bobbin that switches the contacts between two modes of operation - it is not for speed control. That was done with various battery voltages. To me that suggests that one mode of operation is to charge the capacitors and the second mode is to extract torque, or the other way around. This was a hugely complex process, but they must have though that was the only way they could do it. Hackenburger was able to get rid of that process in the Kansas Era motors.

The Hackenburger Power Supply was designed for one of the three pole motors. I strongly believe that it is a classical DC to DC inverter that can only top off the 50 mfd capacitors used. There had to have been an effective energy recovery system employed. I believe that is what the large extra stator coils are for in the Purple Motor along with the second set of batteries. I suspect that when the electrostatic explosion took place between the electromagnet coils a huge charge was collected and stored in one of the capacitors. The battery was connected to the other side. All those mobile charge carriers were sucked into the opposite side of the capacitor and they raise their potential form 12 V to around 5kV. This is a process described in the Le May patent. Simple but fits with what I have picked up. You need a diode to act as a check valve. But that is where I believe 95% of the capacitor recharge comes from - not the excitation power supply which may have been used just for the initial shot. I can send you a copy of the Le May patent. I think it has real merit in our quest.

So the two systems required different specifications from their respective power supplies.

More Photos for the viewers.

Mark McKay

Had to Re-Do one

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.11, 18:47:46
Yes, that was a whole new concept for me. That guy (or gal) was really thinking outside of the box. Even though the specific mechanism might have failed it provided food for thought as to a process that could explain the huge non-classical energy gains.

Thank you all for this interesting discussion.

I also read the McFreey papers with great interest at the time, but was really disappointed at the end. Not because the theory presented there seems to be inconclusive, but because, if it is used as an explanation for such devices as Kapanadze and TPU, it turns these devices into truly fuel-consuming energy-generating devices. The fuel is the building material such as copper and iron itself, and those who then build a replica of it would consequently also have to perceive a drop in performance at some point in operational use after a certain degree of the material has been transmuted.

Hopefully this will not prove true and McFreey is wrong in his hypotheses. Energy from the ether without the consumption of any fuel is far better. So to say from the wheelwork of nature.  ;)

Mark,

The point about the inverter size is that most of the torque appears to be coming from the battery energy.

And can you move the lengthly email exchanges to the forum?  I only have so much typing time, and I'd prefer that everyone benefit from being able to consider my input.  Just the discussion, not the unending stream of documentation (edit: which buries discussion /edit); I already have the documentation that I need.  And yours isn't accompanied by discussion.

Mark,

I've been doing some research on Ignitron commutation.  Most of the articles are behind a pay wall, including the one about a twin tube MW inverter ($35), but some information can be gleaned from the abstracts.  It seems that all Ignitrons can be commutated, not just the 7171 model used by Gray.  One abstract states that the voltage transient produced when one tube is turned on switches the other one off.  Another abstract indicates that any thing more negative than -.5V will work.  Still another abstract mentions that Ignition commutation is the same as commutating an SCR.  That's a really simple circuit and I'll dig it out when I have time.  Unless some other Member will help by posting it.

Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022.10.13, 16:35:29
Mark,

I've been doing some research on Ignitron commutation.  Most of the articles are behind a pay wall, including the one about a twin tube MW inverter ($35), but some information can be gleaned from the abstracts.  It seems that all Ignitrons can be commutated, not just the 7171 model used by Gray.  One abstract states that the voltage transient produced when one tube is turned on switches the other one off.  Another abstract indicates that any thing more negative than -.5V will work.  Still another abstract mentions that Ignition commutation is the same as commutating an SCR.  That's a really simple circuit and I'll dig it out when I have time.  Unless some other Member will help by posting it.

Did Ed Gray use ignitrons in his early years are after he restarted?
Their use implies you are serious about making a unidirectional impulse.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.13, 17:11:03
Did Ed Gray use ignitrons in his early years are after he restarted?
Their use implies you are serious about making a unidirectional impulse.

The first  usage I've seen was the Start Motor.  My opinion is that a unidirectional impulse of exotic energy is the goal.

Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022.10.13, 17:24:04
The first  usage I've seen was the Start Motor.  My opinion is that a unidirectional impulse of exotic energy is the goal.

Username Darkspeed used ignitrons for his "Stinging field" experiments (Nikola Tesla had reported stinging fields when using unidirectional impulses). 
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=561.0

Darkspeed said the following about inducing current in a secondary coil without a measurable magnetic field:

Placing a Tesla secondary in proximity to the primary I have measured a very sharp output on the secondary without ever measuring a magnetic field on the primary.
May be too fast for my meter or maybe it takes more than one bound between plates to establish the magnetic field. - wouldn't that be interesting...

Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022.10.13, 16:35:29
Mark,

I've been doing some research on Ignitron commutation.  Most of the articles are behind a pay wall, including the one about a twin tube MW inverter ($35), but some information can be gleaned from the abstracts.  It seems that all Ignitrons can be commutated, not just the 7171 model used by Gray.  One abstract states that the voltage transient produced when one tube is turned on switches the other one off.  Another abstract indicates that any thing more negative than -.5V will work.  Still another abstract mentions that Ignition commutation is the same as commutating an SCR.  That's a really simple circuit and I'll dig it out when I have time.  Unless some other Member will help by posting it.

Jerry,

That is great information. If Hackenburger was able to accomplish this, then he could have eliminated the core to core arcs and all the headache that went with them. How is that achieved with out a control grid? I'm eager to learn more about this process. It solves a lot of engineering mystery for the operation of the Kansas Era motors. Any links I can check out? This approach might explain all the contacts on the control commutator.

Mark McKay

Jerry

QuoteI've been doing some research on Ignitron commutation.  Most of the articles are behind a pay wall, including the one about a twin tube MW inverter ($35), but some information can be gleaned from the abstracts.  It seems that all Ignitrons can be commutated, not just the 7171 model used by Gray.  One abstract states that the voltage transient produced when one tube is turned on switches the other one off.  Another abstract indicates that any thing more negative than -.5V will work.  Still another abstract mentions that Ignition commutation is the same as commutating an SCR.  That's a really simple circuit and I'll dig it out when I have time.  Unless some other member will help by posting it.

Working from first principals I always found this kind of conversation strange. I built countless high voltage high current circuit elements like this and there's really nothing to them. I used mercury, molten lead, high conductance water/fluids and even metal filings/powder. In fact the coherer is similar and it can conduct at HV then break the circuit on vaporization, quenching or commutation/chopping. An ignitron simply introduces a HV effect as periodic mercury vaporization which is the only reason the conductance increases through the device.

I say strange because many go on and on about the characteristics of a circuit element or device but never go into what it actually does, what is it?. Of course, this is the main defect of lump sum modelling/reasoning and people are taught not to question what something is or how it works in reality. It's like trying to understand a car by looking at it versus designing, building and driving one.

Here it helps to understand many of these inventors, like myself, tend to fabricate most things from scratch. So where some see a simple lumped sum capacitor I used plate capacitors with variable conductance/corona effects which could handle over voltage/arc overs like a spark gap. Since we have corona we also have the possibility of plasma wave, physical effects and other variables within the element. Simply put, it's not the same thing and to suppose they are is a mistake. Lumped sum modelling may work for armatures but not serious FE researchers.

I have found this is why 99% of people fail and never see anything in the way of an anomaly. By using lumped sum modelling, electronics and off the shelf components they have in effect done everything in there power to ensure they fail. They all do exactly the same thing ensuring they all get exactly the same results.

AC

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.13, 17:39:15
Username Darkspeed used ignitrons for his "Stinging field" experiments (Nikola Tesla had reported stinging fields when using unidirectional impulses). 
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=561.0

Darkspeed said the following about inducing current in a secondary coil without a measurable magnetic field:

Placing a Tesla secondary in proximity to the primary I have measured a very sharp output on the secondary without ever measuring a magnetic field on the primary.
May be too fast for my meter or maybe it takes more than one bound between plates to establish the magnetic field. - wouldn't that be interesting...

Tesla was also famous for his "Voltage increase without a current path". (White light going up the outside of a coil, or segmented cylinder).  I don't see this in Gray's work.  Only the rapid termination of an increasing potential.  Without magnetic interruption.

AC:. You banned me from posting to your thread (deleting my input), so why are you responding to my discussion?

Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022.10.13, 18:18:15
Tesla was also famous for his "Voltage increase without a current path". (White light going up the outside of a coil, or segmented cylinder).  I don't see this in Gray's work.  Only the rapid termination of an increasing potential.  Without magnetic interruption.

Didn't Hackenburger say it was more like an electrostatic effect?

What if you applied this unidirectional impulse to the lower coil of the popper coils and induced an opposite current in the upper coil?

here is the GL7171 datasheet:

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.13, 18:16:00
Jerry,

That is great information. If Hackenburger was able to accomplish this, then he could have eliminated the core to core arcs and all the headache that went with them. How is that achieved with out a control grid? I'm eager to learn more about this process. It solves a lot of engineering mystery for the operation of the Kansas Era motors. Any links I can check out? This approach might explain all the contacts on the control commutator.

Mark McKay

It looks to me like Hackenberger used precisely timed reverse spikes for commutation.  Look for a small board with three precision resistors and some timing components.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.13, 18:23:58
Didn't Hackenburger say it was more like an electrostatic effect?

What if you applied this unidirectional impulse to the lower coil of the popper coils and induced an opposite current in the upper coil?

here is the GL7171 datasheet:

. I think what they were doing with the popping coils was connecting battery cables to the cores, with the HV also connected in such a way to spark between the cores.  A relay connecting both sources at the same time would produce a stretching arc containing electrostatic energy.  I'll try wiring that up pretty soon, to test my theory.  Pictures of the Found Motor show some 12V automotive starter solenoids, with sharp phase shifting bends in the cables.

Speaking of automotive, I'm still struggling with a severely overheating brake rotor, even with new parts.  I need to take a break, and look at that some more.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.13, 18:23:58
Didn't Hackenburger say it was more like an electrostatic effect?

What if you applied this unidirectional impulse to the lower coil of the popper coils and induced an opposite current in the upper coil?

here is the GL7171 datasheet:

Dear Grumpy,

Thanks for the data sheet.

I'm sure you know that EMA stood for Electromagnetics Association. Well that was not the original name. The original name (according to Peter Lindemann) was ESMA which went something like Electrostatic and Electromagnetic Association. To me and him there was a deliberate effort to suppress the electrostatic nature of this technology. Make sense to me, let everyone believe it was magnetic repulsion and they will be eating Red Hearing for lunch for a long time. So, when Hackenburger speaks and writes of an electrostatic process he knows from whence he speaks.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.13, 17:11:03
Did Ed Gray use ignitrons in his early years are after he restarted?
Their use implies you are serious about making a unidirectional impulse.

Dear Grumpy,

From my research of the historical record the Ignitorns didn't show up until the 1986 promotion video. In an Interview with Mark Gray, Hackenburger was using Ignitorns in 1979 in Dodge City. The last photos of the 9 pole motors was the EMA6 in 1976 before it was confiscated by the FCC. No Ignitorns appear on this motor in the GD photos I have. There is no history as to what happened from 1976 to 1979, but Hackenburger was driving a Taxi to pay the rent and continue research. He could have had a real job. Given that they (Gray, Mark, Hack) were only in Dodge City for a year and the huge amount of prototyping that was done, I would suspect that Hackenburger must have had a working model to convince Mr. Audrey to advance him the $2 million for research prior to making the trip.

Maybe Jerry's right? Hackenburger, rather than making a custom prototype, was able to use an off the shelf Dynamotor as a proof of principle device. Because he certainly didn't have the resources to pay the machine shop to build even one of the Kansas era models. Using Ignitorns for that model makes good sense. If so, then Hackenburger started using Ignitrons sometime after 1976 and for sure by 1979. I wonder where he got the idea?

Mark McKay

Ruhmkorff coil waveform:

Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022.10.13, 18:25:50
It looks to me like Hackenberger used precisely timed reverse spikes for commutation.  Look for a small board with three precision resistors and some timing components.

Dear Jerry,

I believe that the master timing controller was the 15 contact commutator on the front of the motors. It also had two independent slip rings. According to Nelson Schlaft the original Kansas City motors were equipped with thyratrons and other vacuum tubes on circuit boards. Of course he believed that these tubes were incompatible with the goal of using these motors for automobile applications. So, he removed them and tossed them in the trash. I think that all the precise timing and delays were accomplished by these ancillary circuits. The Thyratron could have been used to drive the Ignitrons, which was common practice at the time. However they could have been involved with energy recycle harvest.

When Mr. Paul Wishard witnessed the operation of the Purple Motor for a group of investors in 1981, he claims that it had Thyratrons operating with the motor. He described the purple glow, but couldn't recall how many there were or any details about the vacuum tube circuits.

With all that support electronics (now all removed) and the complex commutator a lot could have been done as far complex switching and timing.

Mark McKay

Mark,

That last image in your message was what I remembered.  Having the circuit is helpful.  The diode strings indicate that the red capacitors are HV, several nF.  Referencing the motor cart, one of the Ignitron rows has pulse transformers, for striking the internal plasma.  These transformers are normally driven with LV cap discharges.  The second set of Ignitrons apparently are triggered in some other manner.  The question then is if that was the function of the trigger card.  If it were that simple, why include the expensive pulse transformers?  Hence, my thought that the trigger card was used for commutation.  This requires only a momentary reverse bias.  Like the pulses in the Ruhmkorff waveform posted by Grumpy, a unidirectional pulse requires that the discharge be switched off before the potential passes its high point.  This can't be done with a brush sliding past a contact, with accompanying arc stretching.  Unlike an Ignitron, a Thyratron does have some amount of reverse leakage current.  Which would explain their lack of effectiveness.

Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022.10.15, 01:23:28
Mark,

That last image in your message was what I remembered.  Having the circuit is helpful.  The diode strings indicate that the red capacitors are HV, several nF.  Referencing the motor cart, one of the Ignitron rows has pulse transformers, for striking the internal plasma.  These transformers are normally driven with LV cap discharges.  The second set of Ignitrons apparently are triggered in some other manner.  The question then is if that was the function of the trigger card.  If it were that simple, why include the expensive pulse transformers?  Hence, my thought that the trigger card was used for commutation.  This requires only a momentary reverse bias.  Like the pulses in the Ruhmkorff waveform posted by Grumpy, a unidirectional pulse requires that the discharge be switched off before the potential passes its high point.  This can't be done with a brush sliding past a contact, with accompanying arc stretching.  Unlike an Ignitron, a Thyratron does have some amount of reverse leakage current.  Which would explain their lack of effectiveness.

Good Observations and technical questions.

Nelson Schlaft claims that those pulse transformers were original equipment. They worked just fine with his trigger card so he left them alone.
My take is that the ignitrons without the transformers are used on the low side of the inductive load, while the transformers are used for the Ignitorns
connected on the high side of the load. I've seen this arrangement in "H" bridge circuits using SCR motor control.

When "Rocky" (Nelon Schlaft) rewire the motors he had one set of Ignitrons on the high side and one set on the low side. I think this is a waste of equipment for what he was doing (or trying to do). A simple capacitor pulse circuit I don't believe needs two switching elements. I think this fundamental layout was left over from the original circuit and
had something to do with the on-off switching we have been talking about. I need to dig out my power control books and see how the professionals do it. I wonder if we can get cheap high power SCR's to reach the operational range we need (but haven't determined yet).

Here are photos of the EMA0 for those that haven't seen it. It amazes me that Gray (or one of his henchmen) paid a lot of money to have this over detailed model built. That money could have been spent on upgraded instrumentation or pizza for the staff.

Mark McKay

More EMA0 photos:

Here are a couple more Black Box images before I fold and go back to working on one of my own inventions.

The first picture points out a 1.5V battery in the background, as if the circuit's output is fed through that cell.  This would produce a DC offset, which will increase in that box's side of the motor's  power supply transformer.

The second picture shows three Boxes.  The three-outlet receptical box in the center consists of only the internal circuit board, with a clearly visible capacitor.

This thread was SUPPOSED to be about Gray's Conversion Tube.  There was absolutely no discussion about my related builds.  I'm logging out until I can find a responsive forum.

Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022.10.15, 16:36:30
Here are a couple more Black Box images before I fold and go back to working on one of my own inventions.

The first picture points out a 1.5V battery in the background, as if the circuit's output is fed through that cell.  This would produce a DC offset, which will increase in that box's side of the motor's  power supply transformer.

The second picture shows three Boxes.  The three-outlet receptical box in the center consists of only the internal circuit board, with a clearly visible capacitor.

This thread was SUPPOSED to be about Gray's Conversion Tube.  There was absolutely no discussion about my related builds.  I'm logging out until I can find a responsive forum.

Dear Jerry,

Your right, there hasn't been much discussion about the CEST these last couple of weeks. It seems people want to catch up on the overall history of the technology at this time. You should focus on where your inspiration lies. I wonder why there has been so few questions about the CSET. There sure was a huge interest in about 2002. Then it kind of faded away. As I recall, nobody was able to get any meaningful response form CSET setups - except Gary Magratten, and that was enough to keep him going until his death. It just so happens that his layout is similar to yours, so, most likely your are on to something. I'm sure the readers of this thread would be very interested in any observable non-classical phenomena that you come across, even if it is sparks that pernitrate a 1/4" sheet pf Plexiglas.

Some thoughts on the photos. The first one, was taken by GD in 1974. To me it is a collection of parts of different projects. The white 1.5 V wet cell is to big to fit in Blue Electrostatic Converter. I always though it belonged with the "White" box which was a long lasting battery powered portable florescent lamp that extended its life with the converter technology. I'm told that the "Gates" cylinders were sample gel batteries that were being tested. I don't think they made it into any of the electrostatic generators before the LA DA bust. The 10 watt florescent lamp was part of the "White" Box. The covered up circuit board went with one of the electrostatic generators. I suspect the "White" Box. The black box in the upper center looks exactly like the capacitors that were used in the 1973 popping coil demo. The array of machined plastic bushings are similar to the ones in the "Black" motor that isolate the electromagnets from the case.

The second photo is older than the GD photos and comes all the way form Mr. Valentine, the reporter. Mr. Valentine gave about 10 such photos to Peter Lindemann. I'm told that the two boxes on either side of the center black box are motorcycle batteries. The center box is the actual generator (pretty small). The outlet boxes are claimed to be standard 120VAC receptacles that have been rewired in series. The white wires connect to 100 watt incandescent lamps hanging from the ceiling. These were all connected in series. I don't know if additional circuits were housed in these outlet boxes - they easily could have been.

Any way, attached are some of my photos of early CSET builds. Like many researchers I was unable to find any magic with this equipment. Trying to find something out of place is a very difficult task.

Dear All,

Here is a circuit I found that used two Ignitrons for pulse generating, however it requires two power supplies. I've got to work on the layout and see if it can fit into the hardware constraints of the Gold Motor. There are enough contacts on the commutator to allow for a series-parallel system.

Mark McKay

Dear All

This is just the first baby step in the kiddy pool in exploring the response of iron windings in non-classical transformers. Here we are establishing a baseline of low energy pulses at 1.8 Joules. The applied pulse voltage for this test was 300 volts. It is surprising just how little current is forced through the inductance of the windings. Eventually we shall work our way up to 3000 - 5000 volts. At these voltages the pulse energy will be 180 Joules @ 3000V or 500 Joules @ 5000V

Peak Primary Current (Yellow Trace) = 9.94 A
Secondary Current (Cyan Trace)      =  4.4 A
Peak Applied voltage (Red)             = 300 volts
Implied k Factor = 0.54
Pulse duration 3 mS
Approximate Ringing Frequency = 408 Hz (Only one cycle)

The pulse capacitor shunt diode was not installed. Not needed for these low currents.

Nothing to see here just a shake down for the equipment. All classical responses.

Mark McKay

Dear All,

The next step was to increase the pulse voltage with a different power supply. I tested at 1000V, 1500V, 2000V, 2500V, and 3000V. This was with the pulse capacitor shunt diode installed. Gray has a 4th patent registered in the UK that makes a big deal of this diode. What it does is keep the primary current unidirectional. The secondary does reverse the current flow at the end of the voltage pulse since the coupling factor is around k = .56 so it has some freedom to ring.

The Primary current seems to be what you would expect. The secondary current becomes non-linear above 1000V. Instead of a 1/2 sine wave it forms a very sharp sawtooth wave with a very steep current rise. The higher the voltage pulse the steeper the current rise. It appears that all the inductance disappears (or is diminished) and it now acts like a resistor following the voltage pulse. I would say that for this coil and iron wire size (0.035" dia.) some kind of saturation starts around 1000 Volts with a primary peak current of 33 Amps.

At the earlier 300 V pulse the secondary wave form still appears classical (see last post waveforms). The saw tooth waveform starts at 1500 V (60 Amps peak Primary) and just increases in magnitude as we move to 3000 V Pulses (with 101 Amp Primary Peak and 66 Amp Peak Secondary).

So, something is happening with pulsed iron wire. The next step is to attempt to interrupt this current and then withstand the HV BEMF to bring the loop current down to zero quickly. I'm not sure how quick is necessary to get some results but switching on the order of 10 nS has been proposed.

Mark McKay

Red Trace = Voltage pulse across the Primary winding

Yellow Trace = Primary winding Current using current probe A = 20 X Voltage

Blue Trace = Secondary shorted loop current using current probe A = 20 X Voltage

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.21, 05:10:35
...
The secondary current becomes non-linear above 1000V.
...
So, something is happening with pulsed iron wire.
...

The winding being at the same time a ferromagnetic core, it is likely that at a certain pulse level, the iron is magnetically saturated, which explains the non-linearity.

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.21, 05:10:35
The next step was to increase the pulse voltage with a different power supply. I tested at 1000V, 1500V, 2000V, 2500V, and 3000V. This was with the pulse capacitor shunt diode installed. Gray has a 4th patent registered in the UK that makes a big deal of this diode. What it does is keep the primary current unidirectional. The secondary does reverse the current flow at the end of the voltage pulse since the coupling factor is around k = .56 so it has some freedom to ring.

The Primary current seems to be what you would expect. The secondary current becomes non-linear above 1000V. Instead of a 1/2 sine wave it forms a very sharp sawtooth wave with a very steep current rise. The higher the voltage pulse the steeper the current rise. It appears that all the inductance disappears (or is diminished) and it now acts like a resistor following the voltage pulse. I would say that for this coil and iron wire size (0.035" dia.) some kind of saturation starts around 1000 Volts with a primary peak current of 33 Amps.

At the earlier 300 V pulse the secondary wave form still appears classical (see last post waveforms). The saw tooth waveform starts at 1500 V (60 Amps peak Primary) and just increases in magnitude as we move to 3000 V Pulses (with 101 Amp Primary Peak and 66 Amp Peak Secondary).

So, something is happening with pulsed iron wire. The next step is to attempt to interrupt this current and then withstand the HV BEMF to bring the loop current down to zero quickly. I'm not sure how quick is necessary to get some results but switching on the order of 10 nS has been proposed.

Mark McKay

Red Trace = Voltage pulse across the Primary winding

Yellow Trace = Primary winding Current using current probe A = 20 X Voltage

Blue Trace = Secondary shorted loop current using current probe A = 20 X Voltage

Thanks for sharing Mark :)

Curious to see what will happen when you invert the transformer: pulsing the Fe wire instead of copper... ???

There are a few other simple permutations to try as well, as long as the experiment is in-place:   pulsing both in parallel (both aiding and opposing), and in-series aiding+opposing (common-mode choke style).

Quote from: F6FLT on 2022.10.21, 09:03:44
The winding being at the same time a ferromagnetic core, it is likely that at a certain pulse level, the iron is magnetically saturated, which explains the non-linearity.

Dear F6FLT

Saturation is exactly what I'm looking for, specifically at what general current level with this setup. (wire size, turns, coil layout).

This is just the first step in exploring the proposed "Radiant Event". The next step is to interrupt the secondary current at some high value. This is challenging with a large DC current and has proven to be the keystone process (and stumbling block) in these kinds of technologies.

Most explorers seemed to have had intermittent luck with high voltage quenched arcs. Stubblefield seems to have achieved the same kind of process at low voltage and current. Perhaps he was onto some other process? Like Hendershot.

I really think this is an area that is worth exploring in greater detail.

Thank you for the technical observation.

Mark McKay

Quote from: Hakasays on 2022.10.21, 13:34:21
Thanks for sharing Mark :)

Curious to see what will happen when you invert the transformer: pulsing the Fe wire instead of copper... ???

There are a few other simple permutations to try as well, as long as the experiment is in-place:   pulsing both in parallel (both aiding and opposing), and in-series aiding+opposing (common-mode choke style).

Dear Hakasays,

These suggested test arrangements will be on the experimental docket for the next couple of weeks.

Mark McKay

10/25/2022   GRAY'S 4TH PATENT 1978 IN THE UK

Dear All,

For those of you who have never seen the "4th Patent" here it is. I never got a whole lot out of it. I thought it was yet another attempt to patent some important feature of the process yet not even give a hint as to just what the process was. Probably Gray thought he could be in a better position to sell his "Concept Technology" if he had more patents.
I don't know, but UK patents at the time could have been cheaper.

To me the important feature was the shunt diode in parallel with the discharge capacitor. This keeps the discharge current from ringing and promotes a long current tail. I have always thought that a unidirectional primary current was a technical requirement for this process.

Anyway this patent was filed filed in Aug 1978 just before Gray, Hackenburger and Mark Gray spent a year in Dodge City Kansas. The patent was awarded in 1980, the year that Mr. Hackenburger died. This patent was probably composed by Mr. Hackenburger even though it is owned by Zetex Limited, which he probably held a pretty good chunk of shares in.

There are several other supporting patents listed, but I haven't followed to follow up on them.

Mark McKay

Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022.10.26, 04:48:55
10/25/2022   GRAY'S 4TH PATENT 1978 IN THE UK

Dear All,

For those of you who have never seen the "4th Patent" here it is. I never got a whole lot out of it. I thought it was yet another attempt to patent some important feature of the process yet not even give a hint as to just what the process was. Probably Gray thought he could be in a better position to sell his "Concept Technology" if he had more patents.
I don't know, but UK patents at the time could have been cheaper.

To me the important feature was the shunt diode in parallel with the discharge capacitor. This keeps the discharge current from ringing and promotes a long current tail. I have always thought that a unidirectional primary current was a technical requirement for this process.

Anyway this patent was filed filed in Aug 1978 just before Gray, Hackenburger and Mark Gray spent a year in Dodge City Kansas. The patent was awarded in 1980, the year that Mr. Hackenburger died. This patent was probably composed by Mr. Hackenburger even though it is owned by Zetex Limited, which he probably held a pretty good chunk of shares in.

There are several other patents listed, but I haven't followed to followed up on them.

Mark McKay

Hello Mark,
I  use almost this same circuit to send nanosecond pulses to an air-core coil to produce the RE effect.  To me, the diode is a slightly misplaced flyback diode for the coil.  The capacitor sets the pulse width.  A RC damper is required because of the ringing.  He's switching the low-side which tells me he's just turning the coil on and off, so just pulsing it over and over.  Since he is using a DC-DC converter for HV, this tells me the current is very low, in the low mA range.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.26, 15:31:32
Hello Mark,
I  use almost this same circuit to send nanosecond pulses to an air-core coil to produce the RE effect.  To me, the diode is a slightly misplaced flyback diode for the coil.  The capacitor sets the pulse width.  A RC damper is required because of the ringing.  He's switching the low-side which tells me he's just turning the coil on and off, so just pulsing it over and over.  Since he is using a DC-DC converter for HV, this tells me the current is very low, in the low mA range.

Dear Mr. Grumpy,

I see we are on the same page as far as the over all concept goes, however I question the "the low mA range". Perhaps that is what you are seeing in your experiments. In my setup the primary pulse current reaches 101 Amps in about 70 micro seconds (at 3000 VDC) then quickly drops off. The re-charging current for the pulse capacitor is pretty high as well. It takes a full 5 seconds to recharge my capacitor bank with a power supply that is suppose to deliver 75 mA.

Now our whole discussion revolves around the size of pulse capacitor used. Right now I'm using 8 each 5 uF 5kV capacitors connected in parallel. Now what the Gray team use and when is a whole different matter.

Hand written notes on the motor patent for the EMA4-E1 listed 18 capacitors used (which implied 18 power supplies). Now all of those capacitors had to be stuffed in the black box on top of the motor, so they were not very big - if you assume the "transformer" was about the size of a can ignition coil. When Hackenburger swapped out these mechanical contact supplies for his transistor versions he had to add a big box onto the back of the motor for the EMA4-E2 version. I have no idea what size capacitor they were using in these applications.

The Field notes that Ron Cole (not Marvin Cole) took from memory of the Converter Switching Element Tubes (CEST) that John Bedini posted shows large 5uF at 5 kV capacitors being used - in fact two of them, but this was a different technology altogether.

Then in 1976 the EMA6 sported three each large dual HV capacitors (probably custom made at his favorite capacitor vendor). Now just how much capacitance can you stuff in a square can about the size of a large lunch box with commercial 1976 technology?  I figure more than 5 uF. I would venture more around 50 uF.

The surviving Kansas era motors used 50 uF capacitors (six each motor), But I was told by Nelson Schlaft that Gray also employed 100 uF capacitors as well.

Anyway to work with these kinds of capacitors it requires some significant current if they are being pulsed a few times a second. I don't believe that all the current came from the DC-DC converter, maybe 10% of it. The rest came from a secret recycle circuit, but that is another post.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this matter.

Mark McKay

From what you've been saying in your post over the last few weeks, it seems that Gray had a good working system and then somehow lost the magic ingredient and then resorted to brute force with the aid of electrical engineers using known methods.

Quote from: Grumpy on 2022.10.26, 21:48:03
From what you've been saying in your post over the last few weeks, it seems that Gray had a good working system and then somehow lost the magic ingredient and then resorted to brute force with the aid of electrical engineers using known methods.

Dear Grumpy,

Close, but not quite. It was Gray's neighbor and partner Marvin Cole who developed the working system from 1957 to 1964. For unknown reasons Mr. Cole abruptly left the project in 1972 and left all the equipment behind. Gray then hired Hackenburger, a solid state EE to finish off and improve the technology, which it appears he did until his death in 1980. The magic was lost when Gray hired an aviation electronics technician to take over without telling him what the real intent was. Nelson Schlaft unknowingly resorted to the brute force methods to get the motors to work (except now they took 10 KVA to run with no load). From then on Gray was attempting to sell bogus technology until his death in 1989. Gray never did understand the real "Magic" even though he may have had a simple idea as to what went where. All he had to sell were test results from 1973 and 1979. The motors never did work after 1980.

Mark McKay

10-26-2022 EXPLORING ONE-SHOT INTERRUPTING METHODS

Dear All,

From my studies it appears that the "Gray" technology is essentially a pulse process, therefore it seems that useful information can be gleaned from observing individual events. It is also proposed that the "Radiant Event" takes place when a large current is quickly interrupted. So, it is worth considering some simple single shot methods to break the current flow. Here are three methods to review.

A 1/2 Amp AGC fuse as a current interrupter.

I just happen to have a number of 1/2 Amp AGC fuses that I acquired from a university auction. The 3000 VDC pulse results in a shorted secondary current of about 66 Amps. The first question is how fast can a metal fuse react.

Well, it responds quick enough at about 66 microseconds, however that is about 30 micro seconds after the current peak has been reached. That might have been fast enough BUT, the fuse continues to conduct for the duration of the current pulse of about 350 microseconds - despite being vaporized. I suspect that the resulting metal vapor provides an effective current path at these time scales. Now, power fuses have an interruption current rating. I don't know what that is for an AGC fuse of this size but it doesn't matter. Is not going to work in this application. See scope trace below.

#40 AWG Tin coated copper Exploding wire fuse

Perhaps it is the glass envelope that is containing the metal vapor gasses for longer than I would like. Having an open fine wire might improve the current interruption properties,

Wrong. That fine wire will pass a 60 Amp pulse and not even get red at this time scale.

#40 Nichrome Exploding wire

Perhaps a wire with more resistance will explode and clear the current path. This experiment use a 2" length of the Nichrome wire. This added another 1.7 ohms to the loop resistance of the iron winding which is already sitting at 20 ohms. So, that is about a 10% increase in total loop resistance which will reduce the overall short circuit current.

Well, it certainly exploded much like a fire cracker and it was fast at 63 microseconds which was ahead of the current peak, but it failed to interrupt the loop current. In fact after the explosion the current increased because the 1.7 resistance was gone, but there must have been plenty of local metal gas ions to sustain the current flow. So much for the idea of a metal fuse approach

Thoughts

It looks like I shall have to look towards other methods of switching. I think I shall call Paul Babcock (he is local) and get his patented circuit for fast HV switching that uses two each SCR and a transistor. At the conference he claimed that the use of Silicon Carbide transistors has improve the performance of his circuit even more. I also need to do some open circuit voltage measurements and see just how high of a BEMF voltage I need to deal with using this particular kind of transformer.

Mark McKay

Do you have capacitors from Cornell Dubilier ? I'm reading now Tesla lecture from 1897 when he strongly advice special process of manuacturing capacitors for his method of conversion. He said his circuit will oscillate for minute or more. Assumption : we do not know how to properly replicate his method of conversion and without that we cannot go further and replicate radiant energy.

Quote from: forest on 2022.10.27, 17:30:47
Do you have capacitors from Cornell Dubilier ? I'm reading now Tesla lecture from 1897 when he strongly advice special process of manuacturing capacitors for his method of conversion. He said his circuit will oscillate for minute or more. Assumption : we do not know how to properly replicate his method of conversion and without that we cannot go further and replicate radiant energy.

Dear Forest.

In fact I do have some Cornell Dubilier capacitors in my collection, but they are the kind that were used in 60's radio and TV. Is Cornell Dubilier still in business? Last time I checked the name brand had been purchased by another company and their product line greatly reduced.

I'm sure that in 1897 Dr. Tesla recommended the use of that brand of capacitor especially because they bought the patent rights to his manufacturing process. No doubt the quality of the capacitor dielectric will be important for the creation of the "Radiant Event".(That is what I call it for lack of a better term) I have been told that "Gray" used mica capacitors. Which is possible because even in 1981 he was having his capacitors custom made. The capacitors that survived from the same company are not mica but standard HV polymer construction. A mica capacitor with that much capacitance (50 uF)would be huge. I would guess about the size of a suitcase and cost $$$.

We are probably not going to be able to replicate Dr. Tesla's 1987 technology, but we do have a chance at replicating the Marvin Cole technology from 1973. According to E.V. Gray the original device (or plans) they started with originated from Dr. Tesla via a Mr. Popoff who claimed to have worked for Dr. Tesla before his death in 1943. (Popoff must have been an old man when that transfer was made). I suspect that if this account is near correct then Dr. Tesla had made some improvements to his method of Radiant Energy production.

We have to work with what we can get and HV polymer capacitors are on the shelf, until such time we determine that something else is better that justifies the cost - like aluminum sponge laser pulse capacitors.

Mark McKay

Looking at Ed Gray's Energy System, from my perspective, I think I've spotted the little unknowing mistake which kept the motors from being overly efficient.  Kinking the output wire from one of the conversion circuit capacitors will, in fact, introduce a phase shift.  This will ruin both the appearance, and the effectiveness, of the over/under waveform, and it's energy field.

I have to go back and correct the wire art on my Electrical Conversion Boards.  And the same thing goes for the grid wires in my converter tube, which starts off with just a single spark to begin with, then splits it into the non classical waveform.

*****
Use your own free will, or someone else will use it for you.

I've decided to donate another invention to the community.  Here's my apparatus for magnetic quenching, since others have had difficulty with that.  An Ignition coil provides a spark between the plugs, which are insulated from the hard drive magnet.  The spark flows parallel with the flux lines from one end of the magnet to the other, just as Tesla showed with his electromagnet pole pieces.  What I discovered is that a capacitor will also discharge between the plugs' ground bodies, due to the presence of an electron sheath around the inductive spark.  This produces a pale blue tube spark which makes a hissing sound, like compressed air.

This was quite a while back, but I'm pretty sure I had a 100 mH inductor in series with my 7.5 kV, 16 mfd capacitor.  Also, I did not have a cap across the plugs' input, something Tesla stated will improve the Ignitron spark only effect.  I'll try around 55 pf.  (Without a shunt cap, all I saw were tiny yellow spheres running down the center of the coil's spark - a really weak effect).  I'll also see if a momentary pulse from the coil will only discharge part of the cap's charge.  A switchable Interruptor would have value. 

I'd like to be able to configure it for 12 to 24 VDC, or even less.  If it'll run at a Rife Machine's potential, and if I can split that positive, then I may not have to breathe some Cumin smoke the next time I get Covid.

I may file for a patent on this switch - unless someone else will shoulder that burden.  (Under their own name or otherwise). Then someone down the line can find it, even in the next century.  Otherwise, the information is gone as soon as this forum disappears.

QuoteWhat I discovered is that a capacitor will also discharge between the plugs' ground bodies, due to the presence of an electron sheath around the inductive spark.  This produces a pale blue tube spark which makes a hissing sound, like compressed air.

Is the setup akin to a 'plasma ignition' circuit?  In those designs, they use the HV from the ignition coil to trigger the discharge of a low-voltage high-uF capacitor.  Was discussed at a couple ESTC conferences a few years back.
http://www.energeticforum.com/forum/energetic-forum-discussion/renewable-energy/7997-ignition-secrets-by-aaron-murakami-new-release#post204874

Or are you talking about two distinct discharges from the inner and outer plug body? ???

This produces two distinct discharges.  The tube shaped spark from the capacitor circuit does not touch the center trigger spark from the coil.

I'm driving my Ignition coil with a one MFD cap in series with an AC light dimmer.  (Thanks, YouTube).  It doesn't work as well with just the current limiting cap in series with the coil's primary.