Just thought this was cool..
I tuned a Xenon tube to its resonant frequency and pulse width to establish a standing wave in the gas
Now that is cool ;D
So now we know what a standing wave looks like, i don't know if it's the camera but the nodes appear tear drop shaped and seems more dense to the right.
I have seen nodes on a copper wire before, Some time ago i was playing with Lifter asymmetric capacitors and could clearly see the node's glowing in the dark, this wasn't at resonance and only one end of the copper wire was connected, to replicate use the thinnest copper wire possible(i used magnet wire with insulation and pulsed dc 30kv from LOPTX) an aluminum skirt 3.5cm below as in standard lifter configuration, and it's possible to see the corona discharge at the nodes, i wonder if you could tune to see the standing wave in copper, just adjust the skirt air gap to your voltage to induce corona discharge.
The thing i don't understand is that the nodes are so close together at such low frequency and don't seem to relate to the wavelength of the frequency being used.
Peterae, I crossed this point coming down from an output test at 500khz. I think I was in the 300khz range but like an idiot I forgot to note the exact frequency. I will have to go back and find it again.
Resonance is a function of frequency at a pulse width, if you cant be at the natural frequency you can sometimes resonate it by adjusting the pulsewidth.
The power level has to be really low as to not wash out the resonant points. I crossed one point where there were only five elongated balls of light in the tube. when you are 180deg off a resonant point the fine thread turns into a purple fog in the tube.
I am facinated by asymmetrical lifters but I have never built one.... yet ;D
It's so much easier when you can see what's going on.
300kHz has a wavelength of almost a 1000 meters, but i guess that's in air, so how on earth can the nodes be a few mm apart.
Now if the nodes were 5mm apart that equates to 59Ghz resonant Freq if this online calculator is to be believed.
Hi,
I've a couple of 20KW (supposedly) xenon tubes encased in quartz.
You mentioned low power levels so are you feeding them with half wave dc at several hundred volts from a line transformer or equivalent?
Are yours at 1 atmosphere pressure or lower?
I recon we have seen striations before in discharge tubes but the pressure has to be near perfect vacuum for this and xenon tubes generally have far higher pressures than that.
If the nodes relate to sound resonance in the tubes then the velocity of sound in xenon is required. Maybe a calculation will prove/disprove this interesting effect as the cause.
Steve.
This is a 6" Xenon gas / quartz body strobe bulb from and audio modulated strobe light.
It originally had a trigger wire wound around the outside but i removed it.
It is great for testing!
I cant explain why the node spacing is so low. You can get standing waves at harmonics..
Could be a harmonic of the main RF
2ghz would be 6 inches - maybe it is the natural RF of the gas volume itself???
well i am glad i am not the only one that doesn't understand the node spacing, on my 30khz lifter coil i was getting approx 1cm spacing and this was in air, and i was sending dc pulses down the wire, so i would have expected the distance to be equal to the speed the pulse traveled in between the pulses, but 1 cm seems tooo slow
There is more.
Keep playing in that direction.
Here is another one
you cant see it but there is an almost invisable second wave 180deg to the bright one and the repell each other
This one is a little faster.
Quote from: darkspeed on 2010.03.23, 06:52:36
This one is a little faster.
I replicated your results, with one little longer xenon filled tube. (electrodes 320 mm apart). These "balls", which for me at higher power level look like cones, are very interesting. Are these cone, ball shaped standing waves real transverse waves?
In my experiment I started to drive the tube with low frequency as possible, wrote down every single transverse wave node appearing until I reached my driving circuit, supply limitations around 300khz. Transverse standing waves appears at many frequency, as I go higher, higher harmonics coming, with more nodes. They look like normal transverse waves, definitely with higher amplitude, as in resonances points we should see, like in attached picture.
But these ball, cone shaped waves could appear with normal transverse standing waves together. How is that possible? How, and why they could form cone shape? First time I thought they are just destructive interferences. Interestingly, they appear first at around 4700hz.
At some frequency when the transverse wave nodes touching the glass of the tube, I hear a scratching sound, something like when a spinning grinder head touch a glass.The nodes sometimes start to move around the glass, like a rotor of a motor, when I hear the sound. Did you noticed something like that?
Ps.: sorry for the bad picture quality, these are snapshots from videos
Good job Chef!
The teardrop is a directional bias indicating the direction it wants to rotate ( L or R with at exact resonance being dead center still with the teardrop turning into a ball shape )
is the wave flat or spiral?
In what plane do you think they rotate, and why? Magnetic field around a plasma is like around a wire, so 90 degrees to the length of the tube. Poynt pointed out to me, for a rotation we should have an another magnetic field. Anyway I believe the plasma rotate, when I playing with tuning, before I reach the the exact frequency to form whole-number nodes, it could be clearly recognized one side of the plasma trying to rotate CW, and the other CCW, and when I reach the balance,no "stress" at all, the whole wave with all the nodes are flat, in one plane. At some point, I could make the nodes spinning around the glass tube, without a parallel magnetic field, when the nodes touch the glass. I will edit the videos, and upload some to show it.
These ball, teardrop waves must be simple longitudinal ones. Clearly there are rarefaction and compression along the wave lines, however I don't clearly understand right now the teardrop shape, and the cause of it. I found in Russian literature they mention that teardrop shape.
"Furthermore, when quantum physicists have studied the "electrons " of the atom, they have observed that they are not actually "points " at all, but rather form smooth, teardrop-shaped "clouds " where the narrowest ends of the "drops " converge upon a very tiny point in the center "
Depending on the frequency and power level, I could produce them toward + and - pole too, and with some tuning they appear with transverse wave together.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.05.05, 01:13:50
is the wave flat or spiral?
Flat. However when you add a parallel magnetic field to tube length, the wave turn into a spiral.
Cool work Chef, thanks for sharing, looks fascinating.
Here is a mentioned spinning video. The quality is really bad, but I hope it come through. :(
The nodes spinning around, as they touch the glass tube, and I can hear the scratching sound too. I think there is a rotation in the plasma when there are no nodes at all, without any parallel magnetic field. I talked about that with Poynt99, and he think, there should be no rotation at all, without an other magnetic field.
Anyone, any idea, why the nodes spinning like that?
the plasma will have it's own magnetic field and this will interact with any other field, even earth field
is the flat wave always the same orientation to earth?
Teardrop may indicate different velocity for cw and ccw wave... ;D
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.05.05, 11:56:55
the plasma will have it's own magnetic field and this will interact with any other field, even earth field
is the flat wave always the same orientation to earth?
Teardrop may indicate different velocity for cw and ccw wave... ;D
Yes. It have own magnetic field. In russian plasma literature they mention cycloid movement of the ions in the plasma at critical current densities, without an added magnetic field.
The flat standing waves doesn't have same orientation to the earth.
sinusoid with saturation
The thought crosses my mind:
As cool as it looks in a picture, has anyone measured input-output power levels for overunity while in resonance?
--Lee
Fascinating stuff. The standing waves have to be acoustic in nature. You know when the gas transforms from ordinary gas to plasma that it heats up. Therefore this creates a small acoustic pressure wave in the gas from the expanding heated plasma. These mechanical pressure waves are periodic due to the periodic excitation provided by the high voltage AC power source.
Every time you set up a standing wave, you are at some harmonic of a fundamental frequency. You never are looking at the fundamental acoustic resonant frequency of the air cavity, you are looking at a harmonic on the resonant frequency that is always (N x Resonant_Frequency) where N = 2, 3, 4... It's almost like the playing of a flute in terms of the setting up of the standing waves.
The glowing teardrops are most likely at the pressure nodes in the acoustic wave. There the gas molecules can stay bunched together and "get a good glow on" while the AC current flows through the tube. The gas/plasma molecules don't move too much at the nodes. Between the pressure nodes the pressure is at it's AC peak, and hence the gas/plasma molecules are moving back and forth very rapidly and you can't see the glow that easily but it still must be there.
I can't explain the teardrop shape.
As far as any possible over-unity stuff goes, time to take a step back and really see what you are looking at. These tubes for all practical intents an purposes are like resistors. You pump AC power into them and they get hot and give off light. They turn electrical power into heat power and light power and even a bit of sound power. The question about possible over-unity is misplaced in this case.
Anyway, just my thoughts but I am no expert here.
MileHigh
Hi
If we assume that at certain frequencies there exists stationary pockets of high and lower pressure then there must be as a result areas of differing conductivity. If these areas of conductivity are high then does the Crookes dark space enter the equasion?
Thoughts.
If the energy in each node is extracted using some means and the anti node is used as a reference point for that energy would you not have a DC output, question is how much power would you get.
Any ideas on how it could be considered a standing wave without a reflected wave?
A standing wave is a source wave and a reflected wave adding together in sync inside some kind of wave cavity. So when you are looking at a standing wave you are really looking at two waves of the same frequency.
Hi
Theres a documented experiment on energy removal from a discharge tube thats reported to give OU. It has a twin plate capacitor with required dielectric placed half way up the tube. In this experiment the gas is ionised by a high frequency resonant coil placed at the base of the tube. I dont remember who did this at present but it came to mind. I was searching vortex experiments at that time. Hopefully someone will have more info as the apparatus is similar. The dielectric is the key on this and the plates were different metals. Its one I remembered as the OU part differed from most typical projects.
Anyone remember this?
Quote
Fascinating stuff. The standing waves have to be acoustic in nature. You know when the gas transforms from ordinary gas to plasma that it heats up. Therefore this creates a small acoustic pressure wave in the gas from the expanding heated plasma. These mechanical pressure waves are periodic due to the periodic excitation provided by the high voltage AC power source.
Yes, the tube act as an acoustic resonator. The "ball" shaped nodes are longitudinal standing waves. There could be something about the reflection of those waves, which cause the shape distortion.
QuoteEvery time you set up a standing wave, you are at some harmonic of a fundamental frequency. You never are looking at the fundamental acoustic resonant frequency of the air cavity, you are looking at a harmonic on the resonant frequency that is always (N x Resonant_Frequency) where N = 2, 3, 4... It's almost like the playing of a flute in terms of the setting up of the standing waves.
I know that. What about the case, when I drive a primary side of the HV transformer with a frequency, where no nodes would be appear at the xenon tubes, just straight line plasma. If I insert for example a ring magnet around a tube in this case, the added magnetic field would cause the plasma lines to move around by the Lorentz force, which would cause nodes to appear. (like in one of my picture) So, the driving frequency far from any resonant point, and the added magnet caused "nodes" to appear, and increase in the plasma length. Longer streamers mean more charge, right? What should happen in this case with the primary coil current?
Chef:
I will attempt a reply but I haven't looked anything up, just thinking out loud.
I am assuming that the longer the length of the plasma, the higher the voltage drop it sustains, and this is more or less independent of the current. There is a key property of the plasma, once it switches on (ignites) then the voltage stays the same with increasing current. That property is called a negative differential resistance. Another fundamental property is that when the current switches off, the plasma remains ignited for a very short time. This allows for the current flow to pick up from where it left off because the plasma "conductor" is still there. Once the plasma is ignited then the voltage required to sustain the "burn" is much lower than the initial ignition voltage.
So if you lengthen the plasma stream, you know the voltage drop goes up. This makes it harder for the transformer secondary to push current through the plasma, so the average current has to go down. A higher voltage drop implies higher power, lower average current implies lower power. Whether the power consumption goes up or down as the plasma stream length increases depends on whether one effect is predominant over the other.
A longer plasma stream means that there are more excited electrons, but that has nothing to do with the AC current flow supplied by the transformer.
I can't really comment on the magnet affecting the nodes, would have to observe it first had to try to figure it out.
I don't know if I answered your question, just rambling really.
MileHigh
MileHigh:
Thank you for the answer.
Quote
"A longer plasma stream means that there are more excited electrons, but that has nothing to do with the AC current flow supplied by the transformer."
It has to do with what? If nodes appear, what about the frequency of the secondary coil?
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2010.05.07, 21:52:30
Any ideas on how it could be considered a standing wave without a reflected wave?
Good work!
There is a reflected wave.. you have a transition in medium when the plasma meets the wire at the end of the tube.
It is a boundary condition, so to a portion of the energy in the plasma, the tube looks like a pipe with closed ends -- node | antinode | node
Stand the tube up with a ground plane below it.. you should see a directional rotation, just like in a tesla coil discharge you can see spirals in the plasma http://krazerlasers.com/tesla_coils/vttc_streamer.jpg
While Charles Wheatstone was performing an experiment with three spark gaps and a rotating mirror, he discovered that the middle gap sparked after the two outer gaps. This implied that electricity flowed from each end of the source.
Two waves in opposite directions can form a standing wave.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.05.10, 13:15:20
While Charles Wheatstone was performing an experiment with three spark gaps and a rotating mirror, he discovered that the middle gap sparked after the two outer gaps. This implied that electricity flowed from each end of the source.
Two waves in opposite directions can form a standing wave.
Electricity does flow from both ends. This is easily seen in videos of lightning strikes. There is always a leader that comes up from the ground to meet the bolt coming down. Even when considering the formation of the depletion region in semi conductors, the conclusion is that flow is from both ends.
Hi,
What about the discharge from above the storm cloud? The one that creates the clean zone in the van Allen belts where satellites are located. Dont know of anything relating to this at ground level unless those freak extra long discharges perpendicular to the wire have to do with this. Ie 9foot strikes from a 25KV train track line. This may be switching transients though.
Chef:
QuoteIt has to do with what? If nodes appear, what about the frequency of the secondary coil?
It has to be that the energy in the initial high voltage spike to create the plasma in the first place is the mechanism that generates all of the high energy electrons in the plasma itself. Those electrons were always there in the gas, they weren't provided by the transformer. When I say spike here I mean an energy spike. That's high voltage times current times time which equals energy. That energy strips the electrons off of the gas molecules to get the whole ball rolling.
When you say secondary coil I assume you mean the high voltage transformer output. The power consumption of the plasma tube is also proportional to frequency, it has to be. Typically the higher in frequency you go the higher the power consumption. Exactly by how much is something I don't know. It would be an interesting experiment.
MileHigh
Finally I had time today to do some work, and got some very interesting result. I can reproduce now anytime, the spinning movement in the plasma, without a ring magnet, using only the earth magnetic field. I had to make some change on the primary side of the HV transformer,to achieve these result, but it's there. There is a spin at the positive side of the plasma streamer, the negative side is just a fixed end, as Darkspeed said, which act as a closed end, and reflect the wave. The interesting thing is, if I rotate the tube up and down, when the + side is up, the spinning stop, if it's down, it start spinning again. There is a definite blocking effect, like in the TPU. In this configuration the current consumption doesn't change when there is a spin, or isn't. Don't forget, there is only one spin direction in this configuration, which move the wave only one direction toward the negative side, not like when I add any magnet across the length of the tube, on those cases, because of the magnet have two pole, the Lorentz force cause spin in two direction, toward each other!
.
Chef is now Jedi 8)
PS: sunscreen... there is a lot of uv coming off that standing wave
Good work Chef, great video's
Quote from: Chef on 2010.05.17, 21:31:38
Finally I had time today to do some work, and got some very interesting result. I can reproduce now anytime, the spinning movement in the plasma, without a ring magnet, using only the earth magnetic field. I had to make some change on the primary side of the HV transformer,to achieve these result, but it's there. There is a spin at the positive side of the plasma streamer, the negative side is just a fixed end, as Darkspeed said, which act as a closed end, and reflect the wave. The interesting thing is, if I rotate the tube up and down, when the + side is up, the spinning stop, if it's down, it start spinning again. There is a definite blocking effect, like in the TPU. In this configuration the current consumption doesn't change when there is a spin, or isn't. Don't forget, there is only one spin direction in this configuration, which move the wave only one direction toward the negative side, not like when I add any magnet across the length of the tube, on those cases, because of the magnet have two pole, the Lorentz force cause spin in two direction, toward each other!
When the positive side is up, is the spin counter-clockwise?
Nice Chef!
It certainly demonstrates that the earth's magnetic field is strong enough to cause the effect.
.99
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.05.18, 11:53:38
When the positive side is up, is the spin counter-clockwise?
When the positive side is up, there is no spinning at all. ::)
Quote from: Peterae on 2010.05.18, 08:18:52
Good work Chef, great video's
Surely this is demonstrating the extraction of free energy, because the spin energy is being extracted from the earths magnetic field and therefore is free.
Free energy? There is no free energy in the universe, our Earth, Sun, galaxy, etc driven by some generator located a secret place somewhere at the earth. ;D
Anyway better to go back to silent mode, don't except more post from me here.
Quote from: Chef on 2010.05.18, 12:27:17
When the positive side is up, there is no spinning at all. ::)
::) back at you - (asking what is already answered brings more attention to it)
If there is no spinning when positive is up, then it is not the earth's magnetic field itself causing the spin or it would work in both directions.
Gravity is another force that can cause spiral drift paths if a magnetic field is present, which is present in the plasma and the earth's ambaint magnetic field.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guiding_center
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.05.18, 14:46:02
If there is no spinning when positive is up, then it is not the earth's magnetic field itself causing the spin or it would work in both directions.
G - remember when he stands that up it is now in line between the plates of a huge capacitor ( earth and sky ) one way is with the flow and one way is bucking the flow between plates ( leakage )
Quote from: darkspeed on 2010.05.18, 17:16:36
G - remember when he stands that up it is now in line between the plates of a huge capacitor ( earth and sky ) one way is with the flow and one way is bucking the flow between plates ( leakage )
Yeah, I had not considered that. Electric fields are also accounted for in the Guiding Center link and notice that positive and negative drifts are in the same direction.
It appears that particle precession requires two fields perpendicular to each other, but why doesn't two static fields work on a collector?
Quote from: darkspeed on 2010.05.18, 01:54:08
.
Chef is now Jedi 8)
PS: sunscreen... there is a lot of uv coming off that standing wave
Dark sunglasses, too! :o ;)
--Lee