With reference to Brad's pretty amazing findings with the circuit here:
After a chat with Chet, I decided to start a topic here for discussion, because we may bring in the Dovada or other circuits that are kinda sorta quiet. Also, there tend to be some highly sceptical know it alls in some threads on the main board.
These are my opinions and my take on what is going on.
First thing - the LED isn't being lit by any drawn milliamps, it's being lit by the back collapse of the drive coil. The very high coil resistance is something always of note in such a circuit - the higher the resistance, the higher the inductance and capacitance - you can find a situation much like a tank circuit within a coil. Such a situation aids the ring down noticed in the scope shots.
Also relevant is the 5 wire RomeroUK special coil. Regardless of personal opinions about the Muller, that coil works. Also a bifilar pancake coil has relevance, for the same reasons.
The 20% On and 80% Off is a key player. The circuit is running at the speed that it can, which is (from memory) around 5.5kHz.
A looser or less wound coil would enable a faster running, but also a greater duty cycle. I'm not sure of that, but it's the way it usually works.
The small amount of input in the uA, is enough for many blocking oscillators to give a good LED output, it's how my Garden Lights work. By the time the coil has collapsed and rung down and at the speed with which it does so, we see a continuous brightness in the LED output. Anything above 25Hz would do for that, here we have thousands of times faster.
The run battery will very slowly deplete, the charge battery will gain - 4 times faster in this case than the depletion of the run battery because of the duty cycle and the way that the ring down extends throughout the off phase. The net result is a net increase being shown across both batteries.
Ni-CD don't run like lead/acid, which i've just noticed Brad addressed in the main forum topic.
I'd like to see a circuit diagram, but am going to try to work it out from the video.
Haven't built an SSG type for a long time, yet it's a 10 minute thing in some ways, the rest is waiting around for something or nothing to happen :)
The build coils are 2x coil from dancing flowers.
I know they have a high resistance but have to test them yet.
Edit - 485ohms, 422ohms
The batteries will be either 2x Ni-MH 200mAh or 2x AA 350mAh Ni-CD.
I would imagine the AA's that Brad is using are the 350mAh Ni-CD's ?!
Transistor is likely to be a 2N2222A, unless I can find a high hFE C1815 or S9014.
Oh, solar garden light circuits, such as those using a 330uH choke and 5252F 4 pin chip are great, but nowhere near as efficient as a bifilar 300 winds ferrite cored coil, C1815 'GR' transistor, 1meg resistor and '103' 0.01uF ceramic cap...just for reference :)
Here is the schematic of my circuit.
Edit-this is an air core coil set-please disreguard the core depicted in the circuit.
Edit - Cheers O0
Tentatively, first run.....
IT WORKS !
Starting at 1.008V on the run battery and 0.634V on the charge battery.
After 5 mins, the voltages were 1.014V and 0.639V.
Both appear to be charging.
Or I should say 'appeared'. I tidied the wiring and inadvertently shorted the drive battery C.C
It went down to 0.972V and the LED went out.
But, recovery etc should bring it up, will keep an eye on it...or indeed replace the battery.
Upside - I found that touching the 100ohm resistor with a finger will significantly brighten the LED.
Run battery is now at 0.995V and I might just leave it, to see if the LED starts to come on again.
Here's my first run vid ('Unlisted' vid due to kinda sloppy build so far),
Taken because, on connecting the last connection it started up by itself. The switch was already 'On' and the LED came on.
Full spec:
2x Dancing Flower coils approx 450ohms each
C3198 'GR' transistor
100ohm resistor
1N4007 diode
Superbright white ex garden light LED
2x 200mAh Ni-MH 1.2V rechargeable batteries - not used in last few days
1x On/Off switch for the LED and charge battery
Here is the 20 hour run video.The run battery voltage has started to rise!after 18 hour's??!.I have never seen a run battery of any type in these system's rise above the starting voltage-but this one seems to be on the way up.We have .003 volts to go on the run battery,and we have hit the starting voltage.The charge battery voltage has exceeded that of the run battery start voltage.For something so simple,i am seeing things here that i havnt seen in any other pulse system-using nicads.
Now off to watch Marks video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZTjJHrcro8
Yes Brad...this circuit replication of mine has been charging BOTH too O0
Fixed the none LED problem - disconnect the meter !
It was the positive lead to the meter that was stopping the LED from being on.
Lead position is important too. Put the drive coil two leads next to each other and LED brightness will suffer.
If the LED goes out inadvertently while moving leads around, you can touch the Positive end of the drive battery with a multimeter probe and it will come back on.
Oh, to add and clarify, these are Ni-Cd not Ni-MH as I thought they were.
30 min run:
Start of both 1.680V
At 30 mins 1.702V
Update at 1hr:
Combined - 1.723V
Drive battery - 1.062V
Charge battery - 0.661V
Update at 1 1/2hr:
Combined - 1.743V
Drive battery - 1.073V
Charge battery - 0.667V
40mV per hour :)
To all
As i was makeing the last video(yet to be uploaded),i noticed that although the solar lights are all the same kind-some have NiMh batteries in them insted of the nicad's.The lite green and dark green seem to be the metal hydride's,and the yellow ones seem to be the nicad's(that i have found so far).So i have been chargeing metal hydride's and not nicad's-but there is a nicad in the larger setup now,being charged from a super cap.
Very interesting -- and reminiscent of earlier circuits in some ways...
Can someone check the Frequency of the oscillation? Is it 50 Hz (Oz) or 60 Hz (US)?
I could be wrong but from a bit of experience with cells and colour i have found
Yellow to be nicad
Green to be NIMH
Pink LIPO4
Blue LI
I am not sure if this is a standard but probably is googleable O0
The frequency is 5.856kHz-no sign of my 50Hz AC in there anywhere.
Hi Peterae
Your spot on with your color bands and type's O0
Indeed, the colours check out here. Good observation...these 200mAh Ni-Cd's in my runner are yellow.
Only deviation are some black and red Ni-Cd's at 350mAh in some older garden lights.
@Brad - So, in other words, we've swapped what we thought our circuits were charging ! lol
You were charging Ni-MH when I thought I was, I'm charging Ni-Cd when I thought they were Ni-MH !
Funny old world eh.
Updated figures, the circuit was left running while I slept.
02.20 Combined voltage 1.680V
04.20 Combined voltage 1.749V
12.20 Combined voltage 1.845V
Present drive battery 1.121V
Present charge battery 0.724V
The charge rate has slowed a bit, but it's still charging away merrily.
The LED may be slightly brighter.
Another will be built and this one will explore caps.
Quote from: tinman on 2013.04.28, 13:44:01
The frequency is 5.856kHz-no sign of my 50Hz AC in there anywhere.
Excellent! thanks for this development and measurement Tinman!
Also Slider -- excited by this work. The battery seems to be "getting a charge" out of it, too! :)
Quote from: Slider2732 on 2013.04.28, 17:35:57
Indeed, the colours check out here. Good observation...these 200mAh Ni-Cd's in my runner are yellow.
Only deviation are some black and red Ni-Cd's at 350mAh in some older garden lights.
@Brad - So, in other words, we've swapped what we thought our circuits were charging ! lol
You were charging Ni-MH when I thought I was, I'm charging Ni-Cd when I thought they were Ni-MH !
Funny old world eh.
Updated figures, the circuit was left running while I slept.
02.20 Combined voltage 1.680V
04.20 Combined voltage 1.749V
12.20 Combined voltage 1.845V
Present drive battery 1.121V
Present charge battery 0.724V
The charge rate has slowed a bit, but it's still charging away merrily.
The LED may be slightly brighter.
Another will be built and this one will explore caps.
Still going up-cool
I have tried super caps on my larger setup,and the voltage on both caps went down.As soon as i replaced the charge cap with a battery,the battery started to rise in voltage.This is a clasic example as to why you just cant simply change batteries for cap's.A cap has the same(or lower)parallel resistance as a battery,but a much higher series resistance.As we have the two batteries in series,we cannot simply replace them with caps and think it will work just the same.So when you hear people say!just swap the batteries for cap's!to proove that your machine is OU-some time's that just wont work.We are charging a cap with a cap,and we will have that 50+% loss straight up.
I am now charging the battery with a super cap-we'll see how that one go's.
@PhysicsProf - It really is great, in terms of very well known tech with a very very subtle twist.
Particularly the use of 2 diodes end to end and one being an LED, as it's similar to the Dr. Stiffler SEC circuits.
Wonder if the pair can go to the Base and a cap go over the resistor, hmmm
Have built a second, cleaner circuit and this one is showing similar traits to the first...the lack of LED firing which is infuriating !
I can touch the Emitter and Collector and get a flash, but then the LED doesn't stay on. Disconnect the charge battery first, then do it, still nothing.
The first circuit does the same thing and moving the wires around or touching the battery contacts with a finger used to switch it on. It's staying off too. Should have just put it to one side running really.
Anyway, first circuit is still going, though slowed now with the charge battery not seeing much.
Drive battery - 1.168V
Charge battery - 0.735V
The charge battery is climbing slowly back to the 0.749V of 04.20am, before I messed it up...finicky things these if mucking about with them.
The drive battery is continuing to climb, which I can't work out for the life of me lol
Points noted on the caps, this second build retains the battery holders.
Biggest difference, the use of 2x 24V relays. 2.7k each for resistance.
Uses a 500ohm pot.
Transistor is a C1815 'GR' again.
Hi,
here my cool joule replication.
I have to kickstart it with my FG, else it won't start.
B2 battery slowly decreasing, B1 battery slowly increasing.
Diode is 1n4001, rest similar as Tinman.
i will have it run overnight.
Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIpO2fmuWI8&feature=youtu.be
Regards Itsu
Function generator to kickstart ! neat idea, thanks Itsu, will try that here too.
By the way, you must have an impressively sized cat there...sounded like it brought a shelf of parts down or something !
My usual in those situations is "*%^*&% CAT !!!!", beep as the camera goes off, beep as the camera goes back on again, compose the self and "Ok, so here we have the circuit running..." :)
The first circuit here carries on running, with no LED lit.
Drive - 1.179V
Charge - 0.753V
The charge battery has now surpassed the original highest of 0.749V
So it's all going, but no light output.
The second circuit still isn't behaving, but now i've changed to a pair of 150ohm relay coils.
It has shown something which I would like confirmation of.
The charge battery was fully out of its holder. The LED therefore had no connection to cathode. I connected a 3rd coil, of only about 8ohms, by 1 wire from that cathode of the LED, the other end was disconnected. On tapping the Emitter and Collector of the transistor together with a piece of wire, the LED will flash dimly !
Circuit 2 is now running :)
The fix, was to ditch the idea of steel/ferrite cores and go back to dancing flower type coils.
There'd been a dancing Hawaii woman type solar toy on the windowsill for a while and a coil from a dancing flower was already on the bench. So, the young lady from the windowsill has donated her coil.
I connected them up and on the first short of the Emitter/Collector, it fired straight up.
Will let it run overnight.
Slider, she indeed is impressive (see picture), its a Maine coone, but small compared to the 3 mail maine coons we also have.
Here problem is that she is very nosy, fortunately, the box she dropped was closed, so i only had to pick it up.
The overnight result of my cool joule shows more decrease of the B2 battery (-176.3mV) then increase of the B1 battery (+85mV), so overall a negative result.
I will let it run some more days to see whats going to happen.
Regards Itsu
Quote from: Itsu on 2013.04.29, 10:01:31
Slider, she indeed is impressive (see picture), its a Maine coone, but small compared to the 3 mail maine coons we also have.
Here problem is that she is very nosy, fortunately, the box she dropped was closed, so i only had to pick it up.
The overnight result of my cool joule shows more decrease of the B2 battery (-176.3mV) then increase of the B1 battery (+85mV), so overall a negative result.
I will let it run some more days to see whats going to happen.
Regards Itsu
Hi Itsu
Im not sure why your run battery(B2) is dropping so fast?.It may pay to check that your DMM's done draw any current when reading voltage.I have two that draw around 1 to 2 Ma when reading voltage.You can check each meter simply by using another DMM set to Ma in series with the DMM reading the voltage to see if it draws any current while reading the voltage.With these low power circuit's,it dosnt take much of a draw to throw the charge and draw rate out.
Hi Tinman,
ok, tried that, but no reading at all on my DDM in series with the voltmeter (B2), it shows 0.000 in the DC 2mA position.
Regards Itsu
Quote from: Itsu on 2013.04.29, 11:29:20
Hi Tinman,
ok, tried that, but no reading at all on my DDM in series with the voltmeter (B2), it shows 0.000 in the DC 2mA position.
Regards Itsu
I just tried a 1n4001 diode insted of the 1n4004-my charge battery charge rate went right down?.If you have any 1n4004's,swap it out with the 1n4001 you are using.I believe the 4001 is only good for 40 volt's.I know we see only around 5 volt's on the scope with the circuit(LED to charge)hooked up,but disconect the charge battery and have a look at the voltage on your scope.
Runners and non runners circuits are equally important.
Also errors in describing circuits...which is what i've done.
I said "C1815 'GR' again" for the second build, in fact it's only a C1815 'GR' on the second.
The first is as originally described, using a C3198 'GR'.
Both are comparable and the 'GR' same hFE designation threw me, sorry about that.
This second circuit ran over night.
It lost 20mV.
Before the run, the diode was changed out from a 1N4148 (100V 200mA rated) because I wasn't sure that it was still ok, with the LED not coming on. It now has a 1N4001 type black/silver band but the number is 1R100ZC.
I'll change it to a 1N4148 and then to any others, to see if there are differences.
Also, my 500ohm pot is presently sat at 142ohms, so will be decreased to 100ohms.
And, remove the two small relays that still sit on the circuitboard.
First circuit trundles on though:
Run - 1.195V
Charge - 0.797V
Quote from: tinman on 2013.04.29, 11:58:46
If you have any 1n4004's,swap it out with the 1n4001 you are using.
amazing, as i did not had a 1n4004 readily available, i tried several other diodes like a uf4007, a 1n4148, and even a germanium diode 1n60, but all showed decreasing voltage for B2 battery, some diodes worse then others.
Finally i located a 1n4004 on an old piece of pcb in my junkbox, and this directly showed an increasing voltage on B2!!
It could be the battery is recovering now, but none of the other diodes showed this.
So both batteries are increasing now, so lets see where this goes to.........
b2 start voltage when 1n4004 was inserted is 0.9823V, now after 15 minutes its 0.9872 and climbing.
B1 is steady on 1.064V
Regards Itsu
Reanalysing my first circuit - the diode reads as 'RGP 9'. I have hopes it's a 1N4004 equiv but haven't looked it up. Same size, colours.
The second circuit now has no relays on it, so will run while we're out for an hour or so.
The batt voltages will presumably sink, so i'll then change to a known 1N4004.
Then decrease the pot to 100ohms like my first one. Brad's being a higher rating of resistance is what i'm looking at there.
Good info about the diodes, thanks Itsu and let's hope yours is now a runner circuit :)
I would respectfully submit that interested parties run a test of a battery voltage vs. a change in room temperature with and without a slight load.
Remember, a battery of the type being tested is a chemical reaction which changes voltage slightly with temperature. Not as relatively temperature insensitive as a "standard cell".
@ Itsu
Im not quite sure why it seems to only work with the 1n4004,as i have tried many different diode's now and only the 4004 gets this effect ??.
The other thing is,the run battery go's up then down-up then down in voltage-this may be related with what ION said about temp?.The charge battery dose not seem to be worried about temperature,as i have had it running non stop for 2 1/2 days now-and it charges both day and night.Days about 25 C ,nights about 4-6 C.Tonight i will do a rundown test on the second charge battery-as i did with the first.
Quote from: Itsu on 2013.04.29, 19:06:48
It could be the battery is recovering now, but none of the other diodes showed this.
So both batteries are increasing now, so lets see where this goes to.........
b2 start voltage when 1n4004 was inserted is 0.9823V, now after 15 minutes its 0.9872 and climbing.
B1 is steady on 1.064V
Regards Itsu
As expected, it seems the b2 battery was recovering from the bigger loads it had from the other diodes.
It went up till 0.9923 last night, but this morning it shows 0.9667 and after 10 minutes 0.9666, so slowly decreasing.
The B1 battery however steadily increases, now showing 1.075V
Temperature yesterday evening on the both batteries was 21.6 degrees C, this morning 19.7, so not much variation here.
Regards Itsu
Here is an update video(day 3).It would seem ION was right about the temp making a difference,as during the day the run battery increases in voltage-and during the cold of the night it go's down again.I have lost .006 of a volt since i started this circuit 3 days ago.I am now going to build another,and try and return the charge back to the source battery.
Good result's with the 4001 Itsu,and im looking forward to hearing how slider is going with his setup.I have an idea for a self runner with this circuit,and will put it together as soon as my parts arrive from altronic's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzu4-rTQOok
Perhaps ION is playing here too? as in Solar "charge" during the daytime??
throw a Fresnel lens over one ?[maybe with a cooling fan to keep the temp the same?]
thx
Chet
PS Off topic [sorta]
I'm gonna get "johny" a new Pet to raise.[the next "silk worm"]
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23431-bacteria-churn-out-first-ever-petrollike-biofuel.html
Here's my upload from late last night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7Fxr3OP1sU
Today, first circuit carries on:
Run - 1.205V
Charge - 0.838V
I'm not seeing the decrease at night, as would be expected from heat changes in a non air controlled house. But, I am sure ION is correct, it makes sense and is in keeping with hundreds of self made batteries. The tendency is to get more out of the battery when warmed, but the life of it goes down. Stick a flat AA on a hot radiator and it will charge a bit, that sort of thing.
The second circuit has shown some interesting changes, just by swapping transistors.
I was thinking about Negisters and how Dr. Stiffler uses a 2222A with no Base connection on his seeming self runner based on the SEC 18X.
MPS222A dropped voltage on the run battery at the comparatively dizzying rate of 20mV per half hour, which was no good, junked it.
But, 2N3904 (Negister related) not only fired up as soon as the charge battery went in, but gained 3 or 4mV on the charge battery over 2hrs, with LED on. Not a lot however.
S9014 looks good, needs more testing.
C3198 works, yet did drop 10mV over the 10hr run overnight on the run battery of this second circuit.
Did it drop or did the lowering ambient temperature make it appear to lose the voltage ?
The charge battery only went up by 2mV however, to 1.204V.
One focus is on the hFE of small signal transistors. I don't have any top hFE ratings transistors, like S9014 'D' etc.
Perhaps a Sziklai arrangement is an idea ?
@Chet - random factoid. I still have the Highest Score in Oklahoma for SilkWorm the arcade machine. Had one til about a year ago and score was 296,500. Loved that machine, but economics forced sale.
http://forum.okcoin-op.com/index.php?topic=862.0
New run of the second circuit.
I've now changed to exactly the same setup as circuit 1.
Diode is a RPG10J which is what is written on the other and why I could find no datasheet...apologies again.
Transistor is a C3198 'GR'
500ohm pot set to 100 ohms
Batteries rested for a day, these are the ones to do ION's ambient temperature experiment.
LED lit.
14.50 Run - 1.159V Charge - 0.919V
15.20 Run - 1.156V Charge - 0.925V
So far: 3mV used, 6mV charge with LED on.
Updates:
15.50 Run - 1.152V Charge - 0.927V
16.20 Run - 1.150V Charge - 0.929V
17.20 Run - 1.146V Charge - 0.932V
18.20 Run - 1.144V Charge - 0.934V
19.30 Run - 1.141V Charge - 0.937V
Right on the line !
Used 18mV, gained 18mV
But, all the while the LED has been on :)
I have a brain teaser for you all coming up soon(video is loading).
It seems that it's not magnetic induction between the run and trigger coil that is fireing up the transistor???.
Here is the cool joule 3 up and running.This one has to run coils in series,and no resistor on the base.I have removed the LED for a faster charge on the charge battery.We are now running on about 70 uA at 1.5 volt's.As far as the trigger coil running the system while inside a steel tube with large magnets surrounding it-well that might be one for ION to answer,as it's new to me.I suspect the emmiter is being pulled down below 0 volt's,wich is giving us a positive potential at the base of the transistor-??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7DlD8MIEes
I liked Giant Killer's explanation of the circuit - that the ubquitous storm over your shed is a source of white noise EM.
You know you have something there anyway when it rains O0
Quick tip - starting troubles.
Put a 10uF electrolytic across the power rails.
Starts every time on one circuit without poking the legs of the transistor. Another one it didn't. Might improve very troubled circuits though.
Edited after trying on another.
Quote from: Slider2732 on 2013.05.01, 18:32:20
I liked Giant Killer's explanation of the circuit - that the ubquitous storm over your shed is a source of white noise EM.
You know you have something there anyway when it rains O0
Quick tip - starting troubles.
Put a 10uF electrolytic across the power rails.
Starts every time on one circuit without poking the legs of the transistor. Another one it didn't. Might improve very troubled circuits though.
Edited after trying on another.
Hi Slider
I dint think the white noise thing is correct,as i have the trigger coil submersed in a strong magnetic field-this was to eliminate any magnetic interference with the trigger coil.
@Itsu
How is your setup cpmeing along Itsu?
Quote from: tinman on 2013.05.02, 08:57:41
@Itsu
How is your setup cpmeing along Itsu?
Hi Tinman,
well, i kind of stopped after trying several scenarios.
I used severall coils, severall diodes and severall transistors like 2n3055 and 2n2222a (metal case), but in all cases the outcome is the same:
charging battery B1 will slowly increase
running battery B2 will on average decrease more then the increase of B1, however it also show some increasing for a while (typical a few hours)
when it was loaded heavily for some reason (typical battery recovery behaviour).
So nothing extraordinary to report :-(
Regards Itsu
Hi Itsu
Im not sure why you arnt getting the result's like myself and slider are-infact i believe slider has surpassed me lol !where is slider anyway?!
I may have worked out a way to delete the trigger coil altogether-but still a work in progress. O0
Here is a video of Lidmotors replication.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mbp1iuB7as
Sorry, yes, I wasn't sure what to do when hitting a 'certain situation'.
Without further a do, here is the Cool Joule GTi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYm-ldEkYkw
Update -
13.20 Run 1.352V, Charge 0.890V
14.05 Run 1.348V, Charge 1.191V
14.20 Run 1.347V, Charge 1.202V
14.50 Run 1.347V, Charge 1.211V
15.20 Run 1.347V, Charge 1.217V
15.50 Run 1.346V, Charge 1.221V
16.20 Run 1.346V, Charge 1.227V
17.20 Run 1.345V, Charge 1.233V
18.20 Run 1.343V, Charge 1.239V
Run -9mV
Charge +349mV
LED On
Looking at the figures, here's the analogy...people jumping into a pool. After so many, they have to find spots to place themselves as it fills up.
Another run, before heading back to single battery runnings (only got 1 pin board).
Same Run battery, different Charge battery.
A near 12hr run.
22.54 Run 1.343V Charge 1.190V
23.54 Run 1.338V Charge 1.242V
00.54 Run 1.336V Charge 1.252V
01.54 Run 1.334V Charge 1.256V
02.54 Run 1.333V Charge 1.261V
10.30 Run 1.320V Charge 1.287V
Run -23mV, Charge +97mV
LED On
S9014C
100ohm
2x1000uH
1N4148 on Collector
100uF cap across power inputs
2X 1N4004 equiv sharing with LED cathode connection
QuoteRun -23mV, Charge +97mV
Big error to compare battery voltages at two different points on the charge / discharge curve and think that it is a meaningful comparison of energy used / recovered.
It was meant as a test of another battery at a different point in its discharge, but using the same Charge battery.
Mainly, what can be done with 1 charge from a charged battery and do the figures equate out of discharge vs charge with an LED lit as a 'load'.
Should another deadened battery have been used ? probably yes.
The Run battery was little used in terms of discharge. The Charge batteries were at different points.
With most charge having been shown in the earlier stages of the first run, would the second charge battery run a similar course from where the first battery had been at that point.
With no input on the thread the last couple of days, that's the way I rolled.
Point noted for the future :)
What i have done this time.
I charged the second charge battery to full voltage(over 4 days)
I then ran the run battery(the one used from day one)in the garden light until it wouldnt run the garden light any longer.The run time was very close to 4 hour's-so that shows very little drain from the run battery in the cool joule for the last 6 day's.
I am now charging that run battery with the second charge battery.
The standing start voltage of the original run battery was(now being charged) .763 volt's.
Over night it has charged to 1.087 volt's (about 10 hours). So this battery is now being charged by a battery that it charged up in the first place.
I guess the main thing is whether it runs the solar light again, for more than a fade out.
What's full voltage on your batts ?
If I charge mine with an R/C balance charger, they get to nearly 1.4V ! If I charge with solar, they tend to be around 1.270V. A lot stick at 1.267V and I thought that was the top til the R/C charger was tried.
Over here, i'm running at 10 to 20uA.
If I disconnect the charge battery , it 'shoots up' to 40uA.
The method, is to wind a thin gauge of wire about 15 times around the Positive/Collector inductor. One end goes to the Negative rail and the other is free in the air. The free end can have it running down into the single digits depending on where it is placed next to, but the light is too dim to be of any use. Have to use 10uA or a little more to see the light...but the circuit remains running.
Doing such a thing doesn't do much for the charge battery lol
Did you ever find a way to omit the other inductor ?
First pic is of running at 20uA.
Second is when the charge battery is disconnected, running at 40uA.
Third is the light in a darkened room at 40uA.
Transistor is a C1815 'GR'.
@ Mark
I have not yet worked out how to remove the trigger coil from the system-not yet anyway.
I have just finished processing a video of the cool joule circuit running a pulse motor.After reviewing the video,i have decided not to post it just yet-as i dont even believe what im seeing in the video :-\,! and i was there lol !So i could just imagin what others would say.
I will have to go through the circuit,and try different DMM's on the input-as something is amiss here.I cant see how or why the DMM would be reading wrong,as i am going from the battery(flat 9 volt)through the DMM and to a 9400uf cap bank as the run cap's.I have returned the output back to the caps as you did Mark,and the efficiency has gone through the roof-a too good to be true sort of rise.
Here are the p/in figures
7.8 volt's(near to) @ .6uA ???
Now when in solid state opperation,i see every second pulse is different. How can every second pulse be different?-and the difference is uniform through the oscillations.
O0
I think I know what you've done...at least for the circuit, haven't tried the motor idea yet.
If you try to measure across the LED the LED will go out.
If you put a diode out from between the output diode and the LED, you CAN measure it. Now, if you take your reading as a Negative from the output diode that returns back to the input you'll see some really nice numbers.
It doesn't make sense (to me) that it would be a Negative going back to the Positive rail, but that's what it is. The Positive voltage reading is taken from that diode that is sitting with open leg from the output diode and LED junction.
Example would be 1.250V in, 2.791V out - the amperage is of course tiny though, so the LED is only 1/5th bright at best.
The 'trick' is to do something with that output and also keep the LED going...at least to keep the transformer type action going.
The 'secret', I think so far, is to use a cap and perhaps a 1:1 isolation transformer.
Losses have to be appreciated, while we're dealing on the micro size of all and that's been shying me away from a transformer. Might try a toroid with same winds on each side though.
The output has to not see a draw, else the whole thing equates out, as we are familiar with.
I'm testing a circuit for Steve at the moment (a Cool Joule GTi), but do aim to try the motor/cap idea.
One question, being that the pulses of the collapse of the motor coil(s) will be out of phase with the input pulses, could that be a factor for the 2 pulses in your scope shot ?
Multi frequency circuits are an exciting field, as it were.
Thanks Slider and Tinman for your continued work on this... exciting stuff.
Tinman: "I have returned the output back to the caps as you did Mark,and the efficiency has gone through the roof-a too good to be true sort of rise."
Would like to hear more about that when you're ready!
edit-This is just an example.
Ok i made a couple of small mod's to the circuit,and getting result's that don't seem to fit the realms of normal.Below is a quick sketch-a question for you all.
Inside our theoretical circuit box,there is large smoothing cap's-so as the input and output are smooth DC.With scope set on highest voltage resolution(.5mv)there is no ripple at all across the two resistor's.We also have swapped the resistors with each other,and run test again.
My question is-is there any way this can be achieved using conventional method's of some sort that I'm missing ?.As i do over look the simplest of things some time's :-\
I think i've lost what you're doing, what are the tiny voltages ?
One of those times where a pic would bring an 'ohhh' moment :)
Last night saw the first surpass of the Run battery by the Charge battery.
It's all on Steve's set of components, so he can directly verify once I send them to him.
The biggest change has been to use a C2236 transistor.
Traditionally a mid performing NPN for other projects, this thing sent the GTi into a Turbo mode !
Normally, the top return diode (in circuit diagram below) will allow single battery uA running. When disconnected, the circuit may stop and normally does. Always does when running just 1 battery, because of no return path. However - get the right transistor and the circuit will carry on when it is removed. That's the trick here for Turbo mode.
The start of the day saw 2 very well rested batteries showing 1.306V and 0.954V.
During the day, several different ideas were tried, not all were good lol.
By 1am, I switched to the C2236 and pulled out the connecting pin for the top diode.
The circuit stayed on.
Here are the figures:
Start
Run 1.294V Charge 1.063V
After 3hrs
Run 1.267V Charge 1.269V
10.30am
Run 1.235V Charge 1.346V
I've swapped them over and will run it for 2hrs, then back again for 2hrs.
Then let both batteries thoroughly rest for final readings.
Throughout, the current used has been 1.9mA and the LED output very bright comparatively. About 1/2 full bright - useful light.
Just a note - there's talk on the main forum of this topic about LED's and solar.
Yep, uA oscillators run great when solar powered through an LED.
I/R send or receive LED's will work, from remote controls say. For their size, the I/R LED's do as good a job as solar calculator panels.
Different colours of LED work better than others. Whites do well, greens too. Ultrabrights seem to work best of all.
Heat can positively improve the running of such an oscillator. Here's an example, where I heated the I/R LED powered Ha'Penny and the oscillator rate went up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybJuiou1KfQ
A big old metal capped transistor will work as described too, when the cap is removed.
Not sure of the relevance to the Cool Joule, but definitely of interest.
Here's what I got for voltage just now, from a superbright white, ex $1 flashlight.
Amperage is uA, so there's a need to investigate arrays of them.
Final results of the test last night:
2hr rest time of the batteries, after todays 1hr run swapped over and then 1hr run swapped back.
Then no voltage changes for 30 minutes:
Start combined 2.260V
End combined 2.415V
Well lit LED throughout the circuit run.
Hi Slider
Interesting results there.My sketch is reading voltage across the input and output resistors,which tells us the current being consumed and given.Both are smooth DC,and im just wondering if there is a way to achieve this using conventional method's?.The results are the same using the 1.2 ohm CSR in the DMMs-which ofcourse give us the current being used,and the voltage ofcourse is about the same.
I know im missing something here,but i can see what it is?.
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2013.05.06, 00:17:22
Thanks Slider and Tinman for your continued work on this... exciting stuff.
Tinman: "I have returned the output back to the caps as you did Mark,and the efficiency has gone through the roof-a too good to be true sort of rise."
Would like to hear more about that when you're ready!
Hi Steve.
It would seem that some are not happy with seeing our battery result's.Much talk about surface charge,and all that kind of stuff.Although i know this can be a real effect(surface charge),that is not what im seeing with my setup.My charge batteries show a 86% capacity when compaired to a battery that has been charged with a standard charger.This was worked out using timed run's of discharging via the garden light.
But i decided to try and find a way to show the excess energy in some other way.I believe i have achieved this with my new circuit,and i also now know why cap's will not show the same result's-although a caps parallel resistance is very low the series resistance of caps is far to high,where as the series resistance in the batteries is very low.This plays a vital part in how the system work's.
These are the figures so far,but i believe i can make it even better yet by placing the two coils within a monopole magnetic field(coils in one field only).Some quick experimenting showed a further 11% increase in avalible charging current.
The figures below are without the magnets in place.
Draw from run battery-8.5 volts @ 162.8uA
Draw from run cap to system-8.3 volt's 309.9uA
These measurements are taken from points which are smooth DC-no pulses.
This was double checked using my scope across 3 ohm 1 watt resistors that were placed where the amp meters were.With the scope set at it's highest resolution(.5mV) no ripple at all was detectable across the resistor's.
The input resistor has .001383 watts across it,and the load resistor has .002522 watts across it.
Although very small,the load resistor would be disapating more heat than the input resistor of the same value and kind.I have orded all new components to make a more compact and presentable setup.
What we have made here is some sort of DC tank circuit that can amplify current,and from the figures above it is easy to see how we are able to charge two to three battries to near full capacity with just one battery of the same.The system is now running at about 11.3khZ.
I also believe i have worked out how the transistor is fireing up,even though the trigger coil is not recieving a magnetic pulse from the run coil-but i will have to wait for my new scope to arrive to confirm this.
Wow! very good progress, Tinman! my sincere congratulations.
QuoteWhat we have made here is some sort of DC tank circuit that can amplify current,and from the figures above it is easy to see how we are able to charge two to three battries to near full capacity with just one battery of the same.The system is now running at about 11.3khZ.
I also believe i have worked out how the transistor is fireing up,even though the trigger coil is not recieving a magnetic pulse from the run coil-but i will have to wait for my new scope to arrive to confirm this.
VERY intriguing. Hoping your new scope arrives soon! looking forward to further results.
-Steve
I agree about your bunch of caution Brad, that's part of the reason for this thread being away from public eyes.
If it's any advice, I would say that while we could be considered tinkerers, the final result is the only thing that matters for any battery charging.
Chet mentioned yesterday about unknown effects...such as a chemical change that ruins a battery over time, as seen in some lead/acid alleged self runners. All has to be considered and tested.
So what we have, are odd effects to us, such as the capacitor readings you have there. Maybe not odd in the grand whole scheme of things and somewhere something may bite us that is unexpected. But because they're unexpected results, they are of intrigue and worth pursuing.
After nearly 24hrs rest, the 2 batteries from yesterday now read 1.270V and 1.155V = 2.423V
From a start combined of 2.260V
The 8mV increase is likely due to temperature changes and further settling.
@Brad -- in your early vid, you note that this circuit is (or is like) a Be-dini SSG, without the rotor of course. On this forum, one cannot even spell out John's name without it being censored immediately (due to some legal threats IIRC from Juan a while back) -- and I would hesitate to mention the name when this device of yours is clearly MUCH different from his... You could say that your invention was "inspired" by something, but clearly yours is a unique circuit design (and has no moving parts!).
@all - Using low-leakage capacitors for the run-input and the output could quickly solve the questions raised, exciting questions I must say. OTOH, caps are special in that it is difficult to capture ALL the energy from an input cap to an output cap... the old cap-to-cap paradox. (Not really a paradox; has to do with conservation of charge.)
Still, worth the try! I have some low-leakage caps, now that I'm unpacking my gear...
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2013.05.08, 12:25:52
@Brad -- in your early vid, you note that this circuit is (or is like) a Be-dini SSG, without the rotor of course. On this forum, one cannot even spell out John's name without it being censored immediately (due to some legal threats IIRC from Juan a while back) -- and I would hesitate to mention the name when this device of yours is clearly MUCH different from his... You could say that your invention was "inspired" by something, but clearly yours is a unique circuit design (and has no moving parts!).
@all - Using low-leakage capacitors for the run-input and the output could quickly solve the questions raised, exciting questions I must say. OTOH, caps are special in that it is difficult to capture ALL the energy from an input cap to an output cap... the old cap-to-cap paradox. (Not really a paradox; has to do with conservation of charge.)
Still, worth the try! I have some low-leakage caps, now that I'm unpacking my gear...
Yes you are right Steve,the circuit is similar to but opperates compleetly different than the above mentioned.A diesel engine is very much the same as a gas engine,but you cant trade one fuel for the other-as they opperate in different ways,although most of the parts are the same.
I have quite a large cap bank on the new circuit i built tonight,but this is only to smooth out the very small pulses we have in the system.Al measurements will be taken from pure DC points in the circuit only.This is to eliminate any meter reading error.We will not be trying to work out current over time,as the time is a constant (DC).We will be reading DC current input and DC current load within the system.
What i can say at the moment is that i have 82% more dc current going through the load resistor(3ohms) than i have on the dc input resistor(3ohms).I have .9mv across the 3 ohm input resistor,and 1.7mv across the 3 ohm load resistor-and i must say again that this is smooth DC,no ripple at all.
Interestingly, your circuit has been adopted by at least forums and YouTube folks as the Cool Joule..so hey, it is what it is - different!
For comparison, a blocking oscillator is now known as Lidmotor's Penny. It's the same as Xee2vids earlier uA oscillator and then LaserSaber brought out his mini Joule Ringer afterward. They're all the same circuit, but use slight variations in coil design etc.
Correct me if wrong, the SS SSG is designed for 12V lead/acid in any case.
When we start getting into axial inductors and more, the differences build up.
"Inspired by" is a good phrase :)
I'm moving to caps and larger batteries next. Talking with MongrelShark, he's looking at desulfating old Ni-Cd's of larger size too. Got a few projects on the go, but this thing has shown possibly anomalous running, so is top of the list.
Hi Slider.
I am now using a 9 volt input,and no other batteries.I have made some slight variations to the circuit,and using a load resistor to test current output-insted of charging another battery.
When i think about it,this circuit operates in a totally different way than the ss/ssg circuit's-only some of the components are the same.It is good to see people are having fun with the circuit,and lidmotors radio transmitter is a doozy lol-radio transmitters don't come much simpler than that.
Now have you worked out how the transistor is able to oscillate without magnetic coupling between the two coils?-follow the path the inductive kickback could take,and you will have your answer.
More to come soon,but take caution on how much you share-as there are those that will take and run !I'm sure you know that
Well, i'm in a funny boat when it comes to working out how something works. The transistor needs a signal at it's Base and besides flashing an LED or other really simple things, I started out with Tesla towers...so a wireless remote trigger has always featured.
To me, it doesn't so much need a magnetic coupling as a backfeed from the collapse. With wireless energy being able to be detected right up to the wall of a wall adapter run exciter circuit, I know that pulsed DC and straight DC can share the same wire.
Then there's other stuff like matched frequency running. A wall adapter powered coil can run a motor at multiples of 50Hz, with no other components than the coil ! No transistor or reeds or anything else !
Think about putting air cores for collection around this lot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9V8BEtqRbg
Yeah, Rusty (Lidmotor) does really stretch stuff sometimes and his vids are always good. I've had a couple of weird run ins with him, but aside from not knowing what was going on behind the scenes sometimes, am always a 'Like' clicker on his vids.
We had the whole mini community thing going a couple of years back for whatever came along...Kyle Karrington, JonnyDavro, Lidmotor, MrFlathunter, Xee2, GBluer...ah, simple fun times lol.
Just fixed an issue standing right in the way of developments of this circuit. Most of last night was frustrating. I changed out everything but the axial inductors because they are brand new. Guess what, found this morning that 1 of the inductors was broken inside, with no hint outside !!!