The build so far
Coil was constructed using 18AWG Tinned Copper wire, this was wound to the diameter on a tube, and then grommet strip was used to hold each turn in place and then Epoxy Glue was placed in the grommet strip channels to hold it all together.
Primary Coil
Wire Length 128.3 Cm
Inductance 3.912uH
Calculated Res Freq = 179.993kHz
Wire Diameter= 18AWG 1.02362mm
Number of turns 5
-----------------------------------
Secondary
My secondary coil has 20 turns and is 528.5 cm long including tails.
using a slightly bigger than 5 inch tube.
Tails=15cm
Coil wire length without Tails 513.5cm
Inductance = 16.03uH
Parallel Resistance = 21.8 Ohms
Series Resistance = 0.0473 Ohms
Impedance = 1.0062
Q = 21.36
Tested at 10khZ
Inductance per Turn
20 16.06uH
19 15.08uH
18 14.11uH
17 13.15uH
16 12.18uH
15 11.22uH
14 10.26uH
13 9.33uH
12 8.41uH
11 7.50uH
10 6.59uH
9 5.72uH
8 4.86uH
7 4.03uH
6 3.25uH
5 2.50uH
4 1.80uH
3 1.17uH
2 0.64uH
1 0.22uH
-----------------------------------
Primary Capacitors are 0.1 with 2 in Parallel rated for 4kv
Secondary Capacitors are 10 in series 470nF giving 39.8nF @ 6.3 kV working voltage.
I am using 2 high voltage diodes, one of which is a 3A 20kv.
The final smoothing capacitors 5 in total at the moment are in parallel 1uf Each @ 1700V, i will be putting 2 each of these in parallel and then two of these banks in series to give me 1uF @ 3.4kV
Spark gaps are on the way, i have ordered a whole bunch of different voltages.
Peter
It's a thing of beauty Peter! I can't wait to see what that thing can do!!! Did I see a lightening arrester in the mix?
Hi Stewart
Thanks for the comments.
The spark arrester is one of the duff ones i got from ebay and reads short circuit, i just placed it across the output caps to keep them at zero volts for now ;D
Peter
It looks better then the real thing ;D
Thanks ST ;)
I sparked it up and The primary would not resonate i have attached a couple of FFT Shots.
I was using a 600v gdt in series with my HV psu and it was sparking ok.
It turns out the reason is that my Paper/Oil Metal Can Capacitors are the culprits , they measure 197nF on my cap meter and the metal can seems to be isolated from both terminals, but i cannot get them to resonate with the coil in parallel, back to square one, i now need a new 0.2 4kv cap for my primary
Ok i made a new Primary Cap from 5 1uF 1500v Poly Prop caps in series to give 197nF
Here are some fft shots
The first 3 are taken with the scope probe laying on the bench near the coils, each had different a different spark setting, and one of them was using an air gap.
The final 2 were taken with my scope connected across my secondary coil with the 47nF, the cap should have been connected, but now i have time to look at these, i would not have expected to see such a broad spectrum of noise if my cap really was connected so i need to check this tomorrow maybe the wire came out or something.
Oh by the way the last two were taken with the primary coil being in different positions inside the secondary i was scoping across.
Anyone throw any light and whats happening from these FFT shots.
Cheers,
Peter
Remember one thing Peter, Don was in it for $$$. On one of the tube vids I posted he was talking about some crazy amount of money! We have pics, videos and data but I don't think Don gave us everything for a working device. I think your caps are ok now you need to find the missing part/s that Don didn't show us. How can you adjust/add to the caps to get them to resonate? You are close...keep up the good work.
Remember also that resonance is just a means to an end. Tesla even said that you can often do better with a few turns of a secondary (transformer).
Take a look at what a happens to the space around a coil when it is resonating.
Ok i have been sparking my Replication.
so far i can make my output Capacitors reach a grand voltage of about 250v DC, it's slow though, and i have to pull my primary out almost fully for this to happen.
Interestingly i can also get this to happen with no primary capacitor connected at all.
So going back to the signal generator and sweeping for max amplitude on my primary i get a frequency of 152.44Khz, but when i do this on my secondary coil with the 47nF i get max amplitude at 148.81kHz, so it looks to me as though my coils are not tuned right now.
It times like this i wish i had a decent vacuum capacitor to hand.
Tomorrow i will try a crock clip and see if i can find a place on my secondary where i get the same frequency as my primary coil setup.
Also Don said he used a neon to find the node's on his secondary, my neon lights all the way along my secondary coil
Peter
I have few vacuum caps, or do you need a variable one?
Hi Grumpy
Thank you for the offer, yeah i have been looking for a 1000pf variable Vacuum cap on ebay, but they are very expensive, but non variable will make my life hard to tune these.
I have not been getting good results so far, i am not so clever with this high voltage setup, fish out of water really.
The caps i am using on my primary are 5 x 1uf HV caps in series and for my secondary cap i am using 10 in series 470nF to give me my 47nF @ 6300v, i suspect this isn't good, maybe high series resistance is causing me problems.
Originally when i posted on OU that i was going to Replicate this device, i mentioned i was doing it because my pulsing a bifilar coil experiment on the other thread had collided with Some of Don's stuff, so now i will switch back to using this system for my original purpose.
The purpose is for me to start pulsing my primary with my 2 channel controller and start injecting the delayed pulses to study what effect this has with a movable primary and a tuned and untuned secondary, this means i will not need the expensive high voltage caps and can drop down to 500 volt caps instead.
Also the problem i have had is that when i am using 10kv to pulse my primary, i am left in the position of making sure my scope is not connected, this leaves me somewhat blind to what is happening, so with my original intention of pulsing the primary with fast nS pulses i will not have this and will be able to scope and see what the results are.
Also
If anyone is interested i am willing to make a few of the secondary coils to send out to people to experiment with, on the condition they document their experiments on OUR, guys let me know on here and i will get the gear to make another 2 or 3, i will have to leave the primary upto you guys.
Again thanks for the offer Grumpy but there's no need now ;)
Cheers,
Peter
Hi peter, nice build, looking good!
Just an idea: your secondary is I think free running in front of the diodes, i.e. it has no direct LC relationship to your collection caps. One test you could maybe try is to put a much smaller collection cap after the diodes (Same C as primary C) and have that break down over a gap the same width as your primary exciter gap. then you can measure the gapfire frequencies to get a good handle on COP. It's good for tuning because you can just listen to the output gap as you tune differnt aspects. AS you well know, you can't hang equipment off these beasts which makes it frustrating to tweak.
For gaps I use tungsten welding rods cut and filed perfectly flat, then mount them in house wiring electrical blocks (brass terminals in PVC), gap them with car feeler guages etc for a variable cheap and hardy gap.
I am studying your spectrums and will comment after some time to think on them.
P.S.
I am going to wind a new primary to be an integer fraction of my secondary length and start playing here again, at the moment my wire lengths are arbitrary.
Hi Chaps
Today i tried powering the primary with my Pulse controller, i didnt have a primary cap connected but did have my bank of caps on the secondary.
This was only a quick test, but i am getting power transfer, again the primary needs to be almost fully pulled out for energy transfer, as if it's the secondary with no caps thats picking up the power.
I am now wondering if it's because i am using a different diode on this side, it's a beefy 20kv @ 3A, on my tunned cap i was hardly measuring any amplitude even though my controller was switching at the resonant frequency of this tuned secondary, i am convinced my caps are no good, now i am using lower voltage i am going to order a 47nf cap and maybe an air variable cap.
I am amazed i am getting seondary cap bank gap firing, the gap i am using is a 230vdc gap, i am using the 5 off 1uF caps in parallel so i counted 10 gap fires in about 15 seconds so i need to think on this but i should be able to work out the energy dissipation based on this info i think.
The controller is sending a 40nS pulse @182 khz, the power supply is set @ 124.8volts @ 8mA The other power supply is feeding the logic in the controller and is not connected to the fet stages.
So by my reckoning if the psu current is reading correct which i think it's close i have an input power of 124.8 x 0.008 = 0.9984 watts
The gap is firing into a mains bulb 240vac 25 watt but there is no sign of it lighting.
Now all i need to do is work out what energy it takes my 5uF cap bank to charge to 230v every (15seconds/10 fires) 1.5 seconds.
Here's a quick non cometary video
Peter
Ok i have crunched the numbers on the caps
I am using 5uf for my main cap bank and it reaches 230volts every 1.5 seconds and fires the gap.
For a cap of 5uF charged to 230 volts there is 0.13225 Joules of energy released at best every 1.5 seconds
My input power consumption is 124.8 x 0.008 = 0.9984 watts
This equates to 0.08815 watts of energy so it's no wonder my 25 watt bulb doesn't light :(
my cop is currently @ 0.088308
Peter
nice one Peter! it would have been so cool if that 25W bulb fired up first try ;D
Maybe even 0.088W calc is a tiny bit high; I think the caps won't empty to zero on each fire, the gap probably quenches before 0v is reached, but it probably won't make much of a difference because of the Vsquared term.
I'll bet some other pulse width has better COP?
EDIT:
try grounding the positive lead of your output caps, (provided that the caps are not earthed at neg of course :o which I don't think they are in your rig), it's quite weird but in all my tinkerings with air trafo I find COP increases significantly when grounding the positive of the collection cap.
Hi Fraser
Yeah that bulb would have looked real nice had it been bright ;D
I agree probably not even getting 0.088Watts.
The problem is that my coil system just isn't efficient enough, so yes i can increase the pulse width and sustain a higher output power level, but it's all relative really, I need to work on getting the efficiency better, and it looks like there should be plenty of scope for improvement ;)
Peter
I was thinking other pulse widths may have other COP so the graph of COP against pulse width may look like gaussian curve with an optimum peak.
Have you tried any different ground schemes in the secondary side yet?
Hi Fraser
Yes this is indeed an interesting point you make.
I have just done some data on frequency versus power in and power out.
The Setup is..
No primary cap or secondary cap, I am only using 1 of the secondary coils which has a 20kv 3Amp diode feeding my 5uF caps, across these caps i have a 230v spark gap.
I am pulsing using my controller with the pulse width set to 50nS.
There are some inconsistency's in the data, the first measurement of current to calculate the input power @ 10khz was probably a bit inacurate as i was using a 0-50ma moving iron meter to measure current and the current barely measured anything that i could see.
I averaged the gap fire over 10 sparks and then worked out the average time for one fire, again at different frequency's the gap wasn't quenching very well and this effect slowed down the firing rate and has probably affected the output power calc to be low, but on the other hand when the gap fires properly the spark probably quenches before the 5uF caps are at 0volts and therefore already have some charge ready for the next firing of the gap.
Anyway 2 charts Power In versus Power Out and then Efficiency
Peter
don says his device has an output of 8kv at 20 amperes. I find this hard to believe.
Don also says that a neon sign transformer or supply is an OU device in itself ::)
Don says a lot of things....hopefully most of it is true and worthwhile noting.
.99
This is probably a stupid idea but all this AG stuff got me thinking about your build. What if don was hiding the real pickup windings under the red windings...actually maybe the wires wrapped around the tube are hollow and then the wires that are wrapped underneath at the 45 degree angle are pulled into the hollow red wrapping and pulled through the middle part of the tube and connected to the actual connections!
Food for thought ;)
Don't go insane!
We spoke in the chat about this...
Why is there the kinda weird NST-to-Tesla style step up coil in the setup?
The NST raises the voltage which is then feed into the Tesla style coil which raises the voltage even more... this does not make much sense..
Especially since all that don wants to do with it, is generate the spark to exite the transformer winding.
Why not do that with a multiplier and so without all the weird stepping up-stepping up stuff?
And i too think the reported power levels are a questionmark.
Marco.
Close your eyes marco
I wouldn't put it past SM in the TPU
But i think it's unlikely with Don
I think if there's any fraud in Don's stuff it would be that he hast shown us what a working device looks like.
If the answer is criss cross windings then we should see this in some of tesla's stuff
Personally i think the answer is in the special non inductive pancake coil, to cancel the inductive component and hertzian waves but leave the time domain component wave, this would be a much more efficient form of generating these without having to use the hairpin and highly inefficient spark gap setup.
Peter
Quote from: Peterae on 2010.01.10, 20:25:13
Close your eyes marco
I wouldn't put it past SM in the TPU
But i think it's unlikely with Don
I think if there's any fraud in Don's stuff it would be that he hast shown us what a working device looks like.
If the answer is criss cross windings then we should see this in some of tesla's stuff
Personally i think the answer is in the special non inductive pancake coil, to cancel the inductive component and hertzian waves but leave the time domain component wave, this would be a much more efficient form of generating these without having to use the hairpin and highly inefficient spark gap setup.
Peter
Turbo is correct.
Don was trying to make a buck (a dollar or two or three...)
It's curious that other detailed plans and descriptions sit on a shelf or drawer or in a box while people keep looking for something else.
Hello Peter and respected researchers,
amazing replication you are doing here Peter. Thank you for sharing your most excellent work.
I have a question regarding a comment Don Smith said in the interview video. He said that if we calculate the power in vs power out of a Neon transformers it would come to OU.
I know that Peter looked into this before and the Ventex specs. says that this is calculated as an equivalent brightness of electromagnetic transformer.
However I was looking at different transformers available on eBay and most of them don't state this and I even found one that even has the measurement in RMS, see attached picture.
If we do the math it's OU ???
Here's the ebay link to the item: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260536620346&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Anyways, I was thinking of buying one to play with but I think I'll get a 12vdc one to start.
Thanks again for this great research work Peter
Luc
Hi goto
Thankyou for your kind comments, This is a very interesting development thank you for sharing i will ask Poynt what he thinks about this device.
Cheers
Peter
Luc and others:
I have read these comments about neon sign transformers allegedly being Ou many times before and let me respond to this.
For starters, I know very little about neon sign transformers per se. However, I know about transformers and I know that no matter how you cut it, a neon sign transformer is just a transformer. This reminds me a bit about the crazy debate I had on OU about ultracapacitors vs. "normal" capacitors.
The two important facts are that a neon sign transformer is just a transformer, and all transformers are under unity devices.
For the image that Luc uploaded, the neon sign transformer spec says 72 watts in and 152 watts out. (Input: 120 VAC, 06 amp, 60 Hz, Output: 5.1 KV rms, 30 ma rms)
So this appears to be over unity but this is impossible so what's going on here?
Here is where critical thinking has to come into play and follow-up research has to be done. I know that some people take these specs at face value and simply believe that neon sign transformers are over unity devices and they should get one on eBay and start playing with one.
(On a side note, these devices are probably the most dangerous things you could possibly play with and they could indeed kill you dead in a split second. I strongly advise everybody to stay away from these devices.)
Again, I will repeat that I know "nothing" about neon sign transformers, I have never even read a spec for one.
I am going to make the assumption that these specs are industry-specific. The specs mean something in the context of using the transformer in a neon sign application and are not to be literally used for a power-in vs. power-out calculation.
We know that a neon tube will do "burns" where the gas is ignited and becomes a plasma. The plasma will sustain a fixed voltage drop for a varying amount of current during one full cycle of the mains input sine wave. It is a completely non-linear load where conventional sine-wave style AC RMS output voltages and currents do not apply at all.
Therefore, the spec "30 ma rms" on the output side is most likely related to how amenable the neon sign transformer is to pulsing and sustaining a certain amount of rms current during plasma discharge "burn" cycles. These burn cycles must have a "start burn" angle and an "end burn" angle (relative to the sine wave reference timing) that is dependent on the length, pressure, and gas you are using in your neon tube. I don't know all the details and won't be looking them up. I will assume that if you exceed the spec for the rms discharge current then the transformer will get dangerously hot.
The bottom line is that the specs for a neon transformer are telling you about it's capacity to generate high voltage and sustain a burn inside a neon tube. These are industry-specific specs and you would have to do some real searching to understand all of the nuances. For sure, the specs are useful for their intended audience, the people that make neon signs.
Anyway, that's my thought process in action. I know ahead of time that it is absolutely impossible for a neon sign transformer to be an over unity device. I see that the specs look strange and appear to be over unity, and I say to myself that these must be industry-specific specs that are useful for the neon sign industry, and they are not generic transformer specs at all.
At this point for me it is case-closed, I am not going to do the digging past this point. I am satisfied that I am probably reasonably close in my assumptions. I don't even know if the "Don Smith Briefcase" makes use of a neon sign transformer, I haven't read this thread. The real moral to this posting is to not take things at face value when they go against what your common sense is telling you.
MileHigh
Correct!
High voltage low ma to start plasma.
then
Lower voltage higher ma to maintain the plasma.
The ratings are maximum voltage / maximum ma / but not at the same time
These little beasts are all the same. The input Watts are lower than the output Watts.
How can this be?
The neon sign transformer's output is labeled for the wattage available within a single output pulse. I have one that has 10ga. wire on the output coil. I believe the output specs are something like 8kV @ 30 amps. If it could sustain that much contiguous power for any more than a single pulse you would all be cursing me for starting a black hole ;)
Watt Hours or Joules is what most folks think when they see/say Watts. They aren't the same.
Beware of anything labeled in RMS Watts. That is like saying 'Military Intelligence'.
These things are not OU.
Thank you all for your replies :)
I really didn't believe these Neon transformers would be OU but I found it interesting to see the specs and knew it would get some attention ;D
Here is the one I ended up buying: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_rdc=1&item=110479988681&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm38%26_nkw%3D110479988681%26_fvi%3D1&viewitem= I like this one since it uses 12vdc which would make it super easy to calculate power when I have it under test. If you add the numbers on this one it about 65 Watts in and 280 Watts out ;D... right
I'll do a power check on it when I get it in and post the real results. I was thinking of using some MOT secondaries to step it back down to a MOT primary using a ferrite core of course. It will be great to use the 200+ extra free Watts for my other projects ;D
Man, I like it when it's so easy ;)
Luc
hi gotoluc
nice transformer and a fair price as well.
This OU rating is strange, there are 2 types of transformer, conventional which the ratings show way under unity and then the solid state type which calculate out at over unity. We know it wouldnt be this easy otherwise all SM would have done would be to use a NST to run the TPU ;D
Some of the 12vdc neon drivers will say for example (output : 15 ma) and some will say (output equivalent to 15 ma) , i think meaning they are running a much higher cycle 35.1k to be equivalent to a 15 ma magnetic transformer.
http://www.amazing1.com/profneon.htm (http://www.amazing1.com/profneon.htm)
http://www.cpipower.com/neon_cat3_sub3.asp (http://www.cpipower.com/neon_cat3_sub3.asp)
http://prosites-llcwccd.homestead.com/12vtneontrans.html (http://prosites-llcwccd.homestead.com/12vtneontrans.html)
Actually for the DS demo this may be much better as it is 2kv native.. http://www.cpipower.com/neon_cat3_sub1.asp (http://www.cpipower.com/neon_cat3_sub1.asp)
@darkseed
Hola,
When it comes to PSU for smith device... I really would like to try this out with solid state self center tapped earth grounded NST. I have a feeling that NST solely is responsible for great energy input in the first place. Of course its all being apmlified further more via LC tank stages.
I dont think one can have 2 diode rectified NST without self grounding (oh well he states that himself also). Would it work?
Bertonee obviously used to be one of them. Oh welll. it is no more..out of business? There has got to be a reason why NST center grounding is not in "general use" or general production standard (anymore). Now one could easily run into few arguments how noone should earth-ground NST center tap due to lethal power level buildup. Another thing in his videos - when he describes his "commercial unit" we can clearly see a huge center tapped old fashion NST (as a single power ampliifier/source?) and TRI-VAR caps.
If someone could locate self-grounded solid state NST would be more than awesome :) Or if a manufacturer would take a custom order?..
Regards Minde
Hello Minde,
If you go solid state you will then be responsible to create the make/break rate with a rotary spark gap or a magnetic disrupter or both to get the frequency above 20khz.
You wont find anything magic at the 60hz /120hz dc a solid state nst will put out.
The nice thing about the electronic nst is it is already outputting 35.1k then all you have to do is feed it through a small spark gap.
He may have been measuring the inductance of the nst secondary and using it as a starting frequency for all his tanks - as to make the energy flow through the system
In a working device I think the two coils talk back and forth and ring each other up with resonant harmonics to a point that a second spark gap ( not shown ) makes and dumps the harmonic overflow into the big cap bank for output.
Another Test i am driving my primary with a signal generator (Sine) using a 0.2uf cap on primary and with 47nF on secondary, this video just shows how the tuning reacts to the primary being moved in and out of the secondary.
Peter
Peterae, that is a really nice setup!
What value are the gray caps in your output bank?
I was once able to talk to someone who was present at one of the suitcase demonstrations in dallas and he commented that the suitcase device had a ground wire that needed to be connected before the device could be tuned. When asked about the ground wire don said the device would be weak and quickly overheat without it. There was also some question as to weather the suitcase device needed to be in the vertical position to function properly ( ie ground facing down )
Hi Ds
each gray cap is 1uF @ 1700v, yes Don did say the earth is important, interesting to have it reaffirmed, i have been trying to work out how to get a good earth in my lab, i don't have access to outside, i have a concrete floor with wood laminate over the top so dont really want to punch through this, the pipes are not directly earthed, and i dont want to use the mains supply earth as there are computers back down the line.
I would be interested if one of you intelligent guys could tell me why i have 2 closeish resonant peaks, because with one i have current in phase with the primary and with the other i have voltage in phase with the primary (i think),now Don says that he uses one secondary coil for current (the untuned) and one coil for voltage.
Also interesting is the fact that the untuned secondary without the cap also peaks in amplitude with the primary and tuned secondary and i guess this is where the wire length relationship comes in between the primary length and secondary wire length.
Peter
Hi Peterae, we had the same problem at a remote location and in a pinch decided to get a battery charger > battery > inverter to run the computers and scopes and used the buildings main ground to ground the device... The easier version is to get a big UPS and just unplug it when you are going to hit ground with something nasty..
Haha i think i have just worked it out, quiet some distance away is a cellar where the mains box is situated, now this has a bricked floor, i could hammer a rod down and run about 50 feet of earth cable into the lab, i wonder if it would cause problems if it's within 10 feet of the mains earth.
It's quiet scary around here doing anything in the ground, it's a very old town, there have been wells found all over the place including under main supporting walls dating back to the 12th Century, the town i am in was a big smugglers hangout as we are near a major river, and i am sandwiched between a number of pubs, the rumor goes there's tunnels connecting them and these were used to house the illegal booze ect, no one has ever found them yet.
What is the moisture content of the ground under the brick area? If its too dry you may need to drill a hole for a drip line.
The closer you get to an outside wall the better because the ground will be more moist from rainfall.
You can also drive three rods in a triangle and connect them.
You should be ok with proximity to mains ground
In my diagram there is actually no ground on the voltage or amperage coil.. but there is on the green coil
The suitcase voltage & amperage coil looks like it is all wound the same direction
Peter,
If you want to go safe way, you can try same approach as I did. I replaced capacitor bank with one 0.1uF 4000V cap and added in parallel 110V 7W light bulb(can you light it up?). Use the mains supply earth and if you afraid that you will hit your PC with something bad (unlikely), turn it off for first test.
Can you draw complete schema with load, power supply and ground you are using?
If you can make it work what spark arrestor you are using? I'm using spark gap, I can light the light bulb with it.
Oops yes you are right about dons coils they are the same direction, thats my bad memory LOL
they are earthed in the middle anyway.
I am lucky the ground is very wet in the cellar even during the summer, it has been know to flood when the water table rises, they dont build properties like these anymore ;D
Last year i pulled some rotten floor boards up to find wet clay under them, and these were 10 feet above the level the cellar is at, no wonder all the original floor is oak ::)
There are 2 resonant frequency peaks on my primary when i scan with a sig gen, one has the secondary in phase and the second higher frequency has the secondary out of phase by 180 Degrees.
I wanted to study these 2 frequency's with respect to moving the primary coil position inside the 2 secondary's.
I started with the primary as far in the seconday as possible , which in my build was about the middle of the top tuned secondary.
I proceeded to pull the primary out 0.5cm at a time and took data readings of the frequency of both in phase and out of phase values, i also noted the amplitude of the primary and secondary values pk-pk
Here's a chart with the values plotted.
(http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=25.0;attach=986;image)
The top 2 lines are the in phase and out of phase resonant frequencys.
The bottom 4 are amplitude readings for in phase primary and secondary and also out of phase primary and secondary Values.
It can be shown that the close coupling of 2 tuned coils tuned to the same frquency causes 2 resonant points on the primary coil, and as the coupling is lessened the position of each resonant peak comes closer until there is a point where both collide and a very small frequency change on the rpimary quickly causes the secondary to go from in phase to out of phase.
This is a known fact and is called Frequency Splitting.
Once the primary gets to half way through the bottom L2 the effect stops and there remains only one resonant point on the primary coil.
Just to confirm this i placed a third capacitor across my bottom L2, i used a 30nF Cap, my top L2 was using 47nF, the effect of doing this caused a new resonant peak to appear on the primary which was also out of phase, so i now had 3 peaks diverging when the primary coil position was changed.
From some tests i have done by altering the inductance of the secondary and also the capacitance, it's not possible to move these resonant points so they collide to form one resonant point on the primary, so it is only possible by positioning the primary coupling or position relative to the secondary coil.
Good work!
How about if the top edge of the bottom of the L2 has to be a critical distance from the bottom edge of the top half of the upper L2 coil, and it is not shown in its optimum position? You would need to be able o move the bottom half of the L2 to find out.
---------- | ----------
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I am not sure how important that is as you say, i guess it would need to be moved to find out.
I am still not sure if this double resonant peak is of use, if we were to try and tune the bottom L2 to this higher frequency it would only introduce a third resonant peak LOL.
There must be some thoery to this, i guess the Tesla guys also have this effect to deal with, so where do they tune i wonder, i must start having a look at some practical circuits, as this must exist in all matched tuned coil pairs.
I guess the next thing for me to try is ping the primary using my fast controller and do a fft plot and see where the energy is, i would expect to see it at both resonant peaks.
When you test are you driving the primary to get a result - and then disconnect and drive the secondary to get a result - and then comparing the two restult?
I am driving the primary only, and scoping the primary and secondary tuned coil.
By using the sig gen on the primary i can locate both peaks, the higher freq peak shows an out of phase wave on the secondary
And when i added a 30nf to the bottom L2 coil i could see 3 peaks on my primary
I think Don Smith briefcase device is a pump like Kapanadze device.Difference : Kapanadze uses this pump in pull-push manner while Don is pulling electrons into capacitors and discharge them into dead state (no potential difference) reusing basically all the time but also adding a portion from ground.Kapanadze just sucks electrons from displacement current and let it return to ground which creates basically AC high frequency.
There is max current state at center tap of Don secondary and max voltage on each outer terminals.DC potential difference which is much higher then voltage rating of capacitor bank. It recharges capacitor bank in fast manner.Similiar device was constructed by Willis from Magnacoaster pulling electrons from dead battery (which here act as a big capacitor).
hello , have you seen this document ?
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Smith.pdf
John
I have a NST that has the label rating printed as:
120vac @ .32A = 38.4W for the Input
2500v @ .028A = 70w for the Output
COP = 1.8
And every NST I have seen on the web is roughly showing the same COP.
I grew up in Fort Wayne, Indiana, home of the Farnsworth House where Philo invented the TV. Our hometown electronics store was Pembleton's Electronics. Fred Pembleton was an authoritative man that frequently gave heck to the green engineers from Magnavox who would come in with their bright ideas telling them "your thinking to much, keep it simple stupid". They would huff off laughing to themselves that he was a fool only to come back a week later and seek his insight.
Mr. Pembleton knew Farnsworth, Einstein, Tesla, Steinmetz, and worked with them in the 20's. When I first started seeking th OU grail 20 years ago Mr. Pembleton questioned why I was purchasing such a hodgepodge of parts. I told him and instead of getting the usual "won't work, can't get more out that you put in", he said "Well, we have a scientist amongst us".
This gave me confidence and I pressed on. Of course I was no scientist, no college, just a newbie technician tinkering around. A few years later I was at a brick wall and decided to seek Mr. Pembletons wisdom. I asked him if he knew anything to help me along, he said:
"Of course I do but you have to find it on your own, thinking OU takes a paradigm shift in your thinking of open and closed systems, your classical training is bullshit. The law of conservation of energy is bullshit, a singularity created to satisfy complex equations that could not be completed with out it."
I ask him if he did it, he said " Yes we all did, many times, Tesla did the most, but we are prevented from going further"
He never asked anymore how I was doing after that, or brought up the subject, and when I tried to strike up a conversation on the matter, he acted like he never heard me.
I find it interesting that Mr. Smith mentioned Mr. Farnsworth's device as being OU, and the NST's, this is what makes me think he was onto something and trying to tell us by making such blatantly erroneous statements, in other words "I just said something stupid, look at it".
His bumbling oratory during the videos while being questioned does not sound like a well versed snake oil salesman, but more like a professional who's been instructed to lie, and is trying to formulate it while saving his pride. He did not do a good job at that and now many take him for a nut. I for one do not subscribe to that asseveration.
Clint:
QuoteI have a NST that has the label rating printed as:
120vac @ .32A = 38.4W for the Input
2500v @ .028A = 70w for the Output
COP = 1.8
That's just an industry-specific specification for the NST, it's not an over unity device or a COP > 1 device at all. That's a classic example where double-checking and questioning is an important part of the learning process. There have been several threads on the other forums about the specs for a NST.
You would have to look up the specifics to get the real story, but I can hazard a guess. The output spec is for people designing neon signs. It has something to do with the transformer's ability to illuminate a neon tube in the form of a "burn." When the output voltage reaches 2500 volts and you ignite a burn, the average current is 0.028 amperes for a certain amount of time at 70 watts power. So the average wattage is higher, but that's only during the burn. When there is no burn and the neon sign is off, then the average power output is zero. When you average the two averages together, they will be less than 38.4 watts.
The neon sign transformer companies are simply making it easier for non-technical people to spec in the right neon sign transformer. There is no COP > 1.
MileHigh
So your thinking is that after the sign has lit that is takes much less current to keep the arc going for the length of tube spec'd? The way I read the specifications was that the NST needed to deliver .028w for the full length (29" of tube), less if less tube was used.
Quote from: clint3142 on 2010.12.08, 02:35:37
So your thinking is that after the sign has lit that is takes much less current to keep the arc going for the length of tube spec'd? The way I read the specifications was that the NST needed to deliver .028w for the full length (29" of tube), less if less tube was used.
No, more like the burn might typically be on only 50% of the time during a full cycle. The actual current waveform through the tube will probably look like a chopped sinusoid, and the voltage will be nearly constant. I am guessing that the people designing neon signs need to know the power when the neon tube is actually lit, a.k.a; experiencing a burn. They don't care about when the tube is off. That's why you see what appears to be a higher output power. They are quoting the output power when the burn is on only. The transformer transfers energy into the tube that was stored during the time there was no burn going on. It's gotta be something like that.
MileHigh
Interesting perspective, makes sense and demands a closer look.
Most Neon Sign Transformers today are electronic in nature.
A high frequency oscillator powers the small step up transformer
and the circuitry contains sensory ability to limit power consumption
and output.
Once the neon sign illuminates by ionization and begins to draw
current from the transformer there is an abrupt decrease in output
voltage with current limiting. The output power is always less than
the input power.
Just got off the phone with a Ventex Engineer, the power supplies are constant current constant voltage 35 khz symetrical waveform to each anode. So if a NST specification says it will supply 2500v at .028 mA in order to drive 30" of tube once the tube is lit it will sustain the 2500v at .028mA at 35khz to keep the tube lit.
From the Ventex engineers we have OU and wikipedia states the same requirements for the lighting function.
Which is why Don had the rectification diodes in place because when one anode is -2500 the other is 0.
Quote from: john-d on 2010.07.18, 10:17:44
hello , have you seen this document ?
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Smith.pdf
John
Yes, those who're really interested in Smith have quite possibly GOOGLEd the 'Web address by now. I have a backup copy on my 'thumb drive'.
--Lee