As some of us are busy building HHO setup's,now would be a good time to post here what you know to be fact about HHO and cells.
Things to watch out for.
Most efficient cell design.
Most efficient cell drivers-DC or pulsed?.
And of course the fraud's.
Post what you know here,and things you have found through actual experiments.
Lets start of with some fraud's. Who here know what this guy done,and how he seems to show a 6hp motor running of that small cell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iRZ4qJ38OY
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.05, 05:46:40
Lets start of with some fraud's. Who here know what this guy done,and how he seems to show a 6hp motor running of that small cell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iRZ4qJ38OY
Okay, how about this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlciNOyo_U
Gary Hendershot assured me there must have been alcohol or some form of fuel in the bubbler or even the cell.
No fuel injector, no workie right?
I actually fooled some people making a small lawn mower engine run off of sand, only it wasn't all sand, some of it was calcium carbide. And for those that don't know their chemistry, add a little water to calcium carbide and what do you get? Acetylene.
As for cells, I really like the older ones produced by GreenFuelH2O and the older Bob Volk cells. The Volk cells are dead simple to replicate since you don't have to bore any holes, screw around with gaskets, just CNC router the outer case pieces and order some precut square plates of stainless, bolt it all together and you're done. He called them a Hybrid cell since they are a cross between a dry cell and a wet cell. Again very simple and straightforward to make. I'll post some pictures when I get a moment if anyone is interested.
Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.10.05, 06:36:53
Okay, how about this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlciNOyo_U
Gary Hendershot assured me there must have been alcohol or some form of fuel in the bubbler or even the cell.
No fuel injector, no workie right?
I actually fooled some people making a small lawn mower engine run off of sand, only it wasn't all sand, some of it was calcium carbide. And for those that don't know their chemistry, add a little water to calcium carbide and what do you get? Acetylene.
As for cells, I really like the older ones produced by GreenFuelH2O and the older Bob Volk cells. The Volk cells are dead simple to replicate since you don't have to bore any holes, screw around with gaskets, just CNC router the outer case pieces and order some precut square plates of stainless, bolt it all together and you're done. He called them a Hybrid cell since they are a cross between a dry cell and a wet cell. Again very simple and straightforward to make. I'll post some pictures when I get a moment if anyone is interested.
Lol,yea i remember that one. As you can see,there was no where near enough gas going through the bubbler to run that engine. It is quite easy to get one of those ICE's to run without any fuel entering the inlet at all. Infact,you can make it look like it's running on fresh air. Here is what you do. First you drain all the oil out of the crank case. Then you make a mix of 10% 2 stroke oil,and 90% gasoline. You then fill your crankcase with this mix(about 10% more than the full mark).Rip the carby off,pull the rip cord,and bob's ya uncle-you now have a motor running flat out that will last about 30 to 40 minutes before the big bang. This use to be a problem with diesel's that had buggered oil ring's-the bloody things would keep running once they were hot, without any fuel-then they go bang.This is another party trick to watch out for.
hhop
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2288.0
I have a tubular wet cell design that works as you know. It uses the principle of the often overlooked volume change of the gas to pump water reliably, before ignition reset's the system.
No flashback arrestor is needed as the cell is built into the pump and open to atmospheric pressure.
Should a premature ignition take place the cell resets and continues to function correctly. (Never happened the gas produced in this system is very stable for hho, although there was the phenomenon I described of igniting the cell from a low voltage DC source immediately after ignition had just occurred, without a spark..)
Heat is retained inside the cell and transfers to the electrolyte, creating a temperature / vapour pressure relationship and the liquid is then pumped around the circuit to the heat exchanger thermal storage tank.
The hhop I believe is capable of running a home heating system at input power low enough to be used from a solar panel array.
This is the safest cell design I have ever used and I have never had a single accident since adopting this cell construction method, in fact I rarely even worry about it anymore which is a big change from the old days!
Gas production rate determines how long it takes to pump the water sleeve, the rate is currently too low to be used as an engine, but fine for a pump.
In some designs I have built the cell electrodes themselves are the ignition points, no need for a spark plug, just change the signal from low voltage DC which produces the gas to HV DC which creates the spark.
The dielectric breakdown resistance of water and hho is not the same value. Water is significantly higher and exploiting this property can allow the liquid to act as a timing switch providing system feedback in some designs.
Additional:
When you have displaced 50% volume of water in the chamber, you have exposed 50% of the electrodes length to gas atmosphere.
The exposed electrodes can now generate a spark gap if the dielectric strength of 2 x water boundary layers + 1 x hho gas gap is exceeded.
At 80kV I reliably ignited hho.
At 2kV+ it is highly likely the water vapor would combust releasing a lot of energy (Not tried it at this initiation energy level yet).
Leave the gas bypass tube out (much easier build) to entrain hho bubbles in the exhaust flow.
In a clear pipe you can see the hho bubbles entrained in the flow proceeding to atmosphere via bouyancy.
When you trigger the main charge in the chamber hydraulic shock is transmitted in the semi elastic fluid and sets off all the other hho bubbles.
The resultant hydraulic slam from the water slamming together back into a non elastic (non compressible) hydraulic state.
hho bubbled up through an algae slurry and then triggered to create localised bubble shockwaves should process algea into biooil effectively.
hhop is designed to be a solid state, solar powered, bio fuel processor.
O0
for your consideration http://www.artizan.ru/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Build.a.high.quality.Browns.Gas_.HHO_.electrolyzer.pdf (http://www.artizan.ru/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Build.a.high.quality.Browns.Gas_.HHO_.electrolyzer.pdf) far be it for me to advise but for perhaps younger readers a/ does browns gas actually exist ? ( despite commercially available machines the technology still isn't taught) ... and b/ as for the COP>1 aspect that surly is rather dependant on switching time and wave form that's been made clear by at least one member of this forum and many many others guys that not only have the T shirt but a full dress suit. I suggest the link I posted is tenuous so if you have the slightest interest download ... kind regards Duncan
@TinMan
Thanks for opening this thread.
I think the main word in H production is H and O "Recombination". I am convinced that in any case, or, in all cases that use rising plates, wet or dry type, there will be a good 50% to 80% of the energy that is lost anyways, regardless of how you try to arrange the plates.
The first video I made is here and I will be putting a few more with some pretty crazy visuals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbpLVSwIkeE
My take is very simple. It seems to me that there is no real study of the HHO process. I have been searching endlessly for tech papers specifically on H and O recombination during the water electrolysis process. All I could find are recombination of the noble gases at high temperatures via catalysts but I am amazed that a University has not already done some very good close up videos of H bubble creation using their state of the art equipment. Hydrogen is the simplest atom around and readily available to see the effects even closer then what I have managed to do.
If you consider that 1 litre of water can produce up to 4707 litres of hydrogen the present systems are peanuts and there is a major reason for this lack of production advancement. http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae367.cfm
If anyone looked carefully at my last youtube of H bubbles under a microscope, you will notice there is a very high level of H and O recombination back to water when the bubbles break and this is occurring with only two titanium metal points near each other. This says so much on the total process that guys should have been jumping up in the air. This was one small lab test done on the bench with no more then the energy from a FG and no ions added, only demineralized water from reverse osmosis.
From that video, we can quickly conclude that the recombination rate of water to H and O to water again is so high and continuous that it is no wonder that guys have to pump high amps into these cells to then produce whatever the cells will output as H.
There is no way a lone hydrogen atom can escape this. The hydrogen has to be harboured in those tiny bubbles containing millions of H atoms. H atoms are neutral so they can stay inside the bubble but they also have the unique ability to be anionic or cationic so if you leave one out there alone it will quickly find a complimentary ion and change over.
The problem with vertical cell plates as guys are doing all over the world now is that the H produced at the lowest point in the cell has to rise all the way up and out of the top. This means the chances of that actually happening are next to nil given all the havoc it would have to pass through in a bubble, being hit by millions of other bubbles that physically break them open and recombine back to water and those bubbles that do manage to exit from the top actually had a better chance of winning at the lottery.
So to overcome this unseen continuous recombination process, guys use these high amps and pump in juice to "overproduce" so that from that overkill, you can at least get something out of it and this is what we know and accept today as the H production levels we see and what guys are fighting against with more and more elaborate pulsing schemes. But Man, the H's are all corralled but now they have to travel the equivalent of what Salmon have to overcome to get to their spawning grounds. That is one treacherous route chock full of dangers. Break the bubble and those H atoms will immediately revert back to H2O so you have to do it all over again. It's like driving your manual shift car with the clutch half engaged at all times.
So for me, the problem is not how to pulse but how to produce the most efficient cell design possible. That is where the major advancement will be. If the cell is designed to take full consideration of what the H atom has to go through to leave the water solution intact, then the cells would never resemble what they do now.
Seems to me the H atom is crying out, "Make me and get me out of there quick and I will be your friend forever. But please, just make me once cause this back and forth is very tiring and energy consuming".
If I had a higher quality microscope, I am sure I could video even greater effects like to see how the H bubbles fill up. I imagine the process is like the sperm entering into the egg, there is a capillary action that let's H enter while maintaining the bubble exterior plus while growing with the H volume.
So based on all the above, what can guys do with their present vertical cells?
The following diagram will shown what I think will be an easy addition for producing H in the same wet cells that are used in water tanks. What is needed is to find the right diameter straws that can be cut and lowered into each cell spacing at let's say 1" from the bottom and then more levels in the same spacing at every inch going up to 1" from the top. This will force the gas to accumulate in the straw channels and by slightly slanting the channels (45 degrees or less) to favour one direction, most of the gas will exit the tank from one side. The channels will ensure the gas is no longer in direct contact with the plates as they accumulate and exit as fast as possible. By reducing the recombination, more of the gas will escape at first creation (debatable - more like the 100th recreation but better then the 1000th or 10000th recreation that may be going on) .
The tank water level will provide a certain head of pressure to hold the air channels inside the straw channels and will help moving the gas out of the channels. New water entering the plate spaces will have a little more turbulence since the air channel will create an oscillation between the water head and the slightly compressed gas and this will help create a certain vibration that will help to keep the plates free of sticky bubbles. Or, at the most I would see a small off center type vibration motor that could be used to keep the plates vibrating. The important thing is once the bubble is made, keep it away from the plates and in a rising formation.
Anyone with an existing system can try this with the least amount of cost and effort and the results should be relayed back to this thread.
wattsup
I have one old cell that I found in a box that survived the last dismantling, it is the cell that ignites oddly and a newer pump system loop with visual tubing to watch the bubbles. This cell has a bypass tube installed which has corroded, same as the brass non return valves. It is missing a displacement / combustion chamber assembly.
The outlet NRV is not needed if the outlet is raised up the chamber by a fittings height, the bubbles will then exit the outlet before reaching the reservoir inlet NRV height. Sometimes a bubble in the loop will disappear but it does not set them all off, sometimes.. the main charge that has produced the pumping and the bubbles reliably does that through hydraulic shock ignition.
Vertical alignement in the gravitational field is crucial, within reason, to correct action on displacement and bouyancy functions of the cell loop as well as pressure building capability and shockwave transmission throughout the system working fluids is my answer to why build vertical cells.
Any bubble that does "go off" prematurely within an algae slurry achieves the same outcome, if that outcome is the puncturing of the algae cell wall membrane releasing algae lipid oil's into the slurry working fluid. Conjecture on my part at present I admit..
The cell is missing the 1/2 BSP M to 14mm F spark plug thread brass adaptor and the sparkplug, wonder what I did with them ? so that needs replacing and then a HV ignition system and we are back in business! or not.. I think I will donate the cell to Graham to tinker with in his museum, a hho pump might look good sitting next to his very own hho engine..
Dear Wattsup.
Many thanks for that most detailed and interesting post.
It has also made me wonder, on more than one occasion why there are so few facts available regarding HHO !!
If I have read you correctly the bubble forms and expands ? How would the addition of something to the water ( question is what? ) that could strengthen the bubble wall ? Pure conjecture, this is not my field !! :) I am just throwing it out there !!
Cheers Grum.
Very thought provoking wattsup. O0
So your estimate is that the production rate barely outruns the recombination rate. And the net rate is rather linear with respect to input wattage. So if recombination is decreased by half, the net rate is doubled. That sound about right?
What if the Hydrogen plate had tiny pores that would only allow Hydrogen through them. Suppose this plate was kept at vacuum, so immediately upon separating from the Oxygen it was pulled through the plate. Is there such a material having those properties and with the structural integrity to withstand the mechanical stress of the vacuum? Carbon? Graphene? Some form of porous synthetic material that will not allow a liquid to pass through, only a gas?
Obviously the pressure is relative, so the water could be kept under pressure and the gas pushed through to a lower (i.e. atmospheric) pressure.
If something could be found to do this, an order of magnitude in net rate could be had easily.
Dear Matt.
Quite a few years back I built a small experimental cell made from a pair of Aluminium foil plates separated by a 1/4 of an inch from each other. The water was put under slight pressure between these plates and on the other side of the plates I machined a couple of discs to seal and remove the gas, on the dry side.
My train of thought was that the gasses down at the atomic level would be able to pass through the metal matrix. In practice, laughable now, was that as I increased the pressure on the water the foil electrodes ripped open !! :)
However I remembered that tightly woven metal mesh will not let water through quite so easily, so how about this ?? http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Mesh-400x400-316L/dp/B00DRMFWBU
Just a thought !!
Cheers Grum.
Wattsup
Your Microscope work is priceless,getting to see the effects of... say the"Keely frequency" as it may apply to GAS production
or even the other frequencies that may effect volume ...? or even experimenting with surfactants or the very Small lithium soap surfactant[1%] which has been said to effect the Bond strength in the water, Johan-55 says this is one of the reasons he can run such a large percent of water in the Emulsification water /fuel systems.
also, it has been said here that a small vacuum on the cell is interesting?[Johan and Mike N commented].
and of course your comments on wasted energy in the typical HHO cell ..even as it applies to the "phase change pressure"
Which Rob Mason [evolvingape] has mentioned many times as well as utilizing wasted heat.
and lastly and perhaps most relevant at this moment .".time to harvest" as well as time to use ..it has been said there is a "Decay" which takes place in the first second [or 1/3 second] of Hydrogen which needs MUCH more attention as it applies to available energy and Power
Letting the Hydrogen Lolly gag along as it winds its way to the surface is counter intuitive.
It would seem Rob once again hit on a winner with his Design, immediate use of the HHO plasma event internally .
All Great and inspiring insights O0
very much appreciated
thx
Chet
@Matt Watts
Yes, the recombination (recom) rate will be very high, so high since most guys are running these plates at 100s of volts and usually more then 10% duty so the production is very aggressive and the impacts to the bubbles must be devastating enough to create a high percentage of recom. It's basically playing the Hydrogen numbers game. Out of so many, some will survive.
The Hydrogen atom will never leave the tank as a single atom. They have to be packaged in protective bubbles otherwise they will immediately find a complimentary anionic or cationic atom and recombine. When you add KOH, this provides more ions for recombination plus you are actually adding Hydrogen ions as well, so when guys say I produce more with KOH, they are just upping the H numbers game.
A ew days ago I tried putting a thin plastic barrier between the anode and cathode but it was enough to block the potential from passing through hence no H production. The material that could be used as a vertical plate separator has to have enough permeability to let the anode/cathode potential pass but with small enough holes to block the hydrogen from migrating to the other side but this would still not eliminate further contact with the plates, which is not ideal.
The other option is to build horizontal cells that can be stacked as the general diagram shown below. The plates would be only 1/4" to 1/2" high with a freeboard space above to hold the gas and let it exit. Then by stacking the cells, you would just multiply the output accordingly. The only problem with this setup is potential heat build-up in a closed cell but by the same token, these type of cells should never require the same feed supply as the usual vertical full plate cell systems. The important point is the H bubble is produced and rises out immediately.
So to equal the same plate surface as a system using 12" high plates, you would need 1/2" plate cells stacked 24 high and the applied energy would be the same as the regular system but now you would have at least 24 times more output potential since the gas would exit much faster given the recom factor would be very low. The applied energy would still be the same since you would be using the same total plate area.
As another alternative to the short stacked verticals, consider using only two horizontal mesh plates per cell as shown in the last part of my video, that would simplify the building process and still provide quick liberation of H bubbles. My mesh plate is titanium that I had brought in from China and I asked the producer to treat it with iridium and tantalum for a specific water treatment device I am still working on as R&D (hence the black color of my plates), but with much less available time. These plates will last 50 years easy. This type of set-up would eventually replace most known water treatment methods plus it would act as a water steriliser as well. Probably 2-3 more years away, time depending. But, titanium is very expensive.
These guys seem to have a good explanation on why titanium may be a good choice or at least what to watch out for with other metals.
http://www.drive60mpg.com/titaniumhho.html
There is really no other way to go about this and small scale bench tests (this Forums' forté) with all the variables would be easy for a number of guys to undertake some level of R&D without risking major blow outs. But regardless, the answer is in the cell. Pulsing methods do provide some effect but you do not need all that effect to create H bubbles and at some point, more energy could push the H bubbles to break apart even more.
I'll put up a new video hopefully by tonight since I took many short videos and will put them in one or two more youtubes. One of them just freaked me totally out when I saw it. Another will show the effect of duty and frequency. The thing to remember is the actual atomic level is probably a million times smaller then what we can see in the videos with my microscope. So, my take on this for guys at the @LB thread is - go for the circuit since these are always useful, but for the cell, maybe wait and do some bench scale tests first before going all out with a much more expensive build. I personally think that flyback will be the best pulse method. If you can increase the H production with the same feed power, the OU aspect should get closer and closer.
These days, I am more immersed in my research into the atomic construct and the inconsistencies we have been taught that pushed me to look into the H question thanks to @LB. The impact of this will be far reaching into so many aspects of our present science so I have very limited time to allocate only to H production. What I am proposing here is just another way of looking at the H problem and maybe will give some guys ideas in other directions. Can't ask for more then that.
wattsup
PS: I am putting these general drawings here so that no one would be able to patent these ideas should they be patentable. Don't know, don't care.
@all
Here is Hydrogen 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjbGTjE0i7o
Hydrogen 3 will be up tonight and will show duty and frequency.
I will try to find some closer lens as I would really like to see a real good close up of how the hydrogen bubble grows. hehehe
wattsup
Hi Wattsup,
thanks for the videos, they are interesting, but be careful what you see into them.
I have attached a pdf for you to read, it will explain what happens as far as recombination is concerned. The hydrogen atom is the simplest but also does some not always expected things.
When you say recombination! are you saying that it recombines back to water?
It may recombine back to water but not until it has past through other combinations, and infact it is more likly to combine with itself forming H2, as combining with oxygen the reaction happens as 2H+O2=H2O2 hydrogen peroxide.
This decomposses instantly in water if no other chemicals are pressent to stabalise it, so you then have H2 and O2 gas.
H2 and O2 gas only recombine into water if you apply energy "such as burning it, but not the only way".
Atomic hydrogen only has a life of 350msec+-, but it can be extended as talked about in the pdf
It is a very complicated field which I have been learning about for quite some years, as my main aim is producing other hydrogen fuels (hydrocarbons) in an eco friendly way by recycling the carbon from burning it in the first place.
Hope this has helped a little O0
regards
Mike 8)
The hhop burns the gas in the chamber to initiate the reaction, and also transmits the energy via hydraulic shock to the gas bubbles, which then burn. You can demonstrate this for yourselves by building one and observing, high speed video recording would help a lot. Alternatively do a lot of runs and allow your mind to build a montage as it records subtle details on each run.
The bubbles float in a semi elastic hydraulic fluid which makes it and them resonant.
You cannot achieve simultaneous detonation of the hho charge in the gas chamber via spark methods, even HV multi spark ignition won't do it for you.
http://www.onedirt.com/news/msd-101-learning-about-multi-spark/
Does anyone know more about Solar Hydrogen Trends LLc, or have they gone off the radar?
regards
Mike 8)
Last I spoke with Jack they were pushing hard to move forward .However , I did read recently they were looking in the 120 million price range for some type of marketing "Package" ??
?
I will take a look for the specific information to make sure I get that right.
thx
Chet
Quote from: Chet K on 2014.10.08, 14:20:57
Last I spoke with Jack they were pushing hard to move forward .However , I did read recently they were looking in the 120 million price range for some type of marketing "Package" ??
?
I will take a look for the specific information to make sure I get that right.
thx
Chet
That is big money, 120M$, but if the system works as stated then worth every cent
regards
Mike 8)
http://solarhydrogentrends.com/
According to TRC Solutions test, on input of 415 watts, the mini reactor produces an output of 7,369 cubic feet of hydrogen per hour (electricity equivalent of 626 kWh). The estimated cost of inputs is $1.68 per hour.
According to AirKinetics test, on input of 500 watts, the mini reactor produces an output of 2,797 cubic feet of hydrogen per hour (electricity equivalent of 237 kWh). The estimated cost of inputs is $1.80 per hour.
The range of differences in results needs explaining before anyone is going to front $120m.
The flow rates and purity are exciting, as is the energy cost $.
Quote from: evolvingape on 2014.10.08, 16:33:43
http://solarhydrogentrends.com/
According to TRC Solutions test, on input of 415 watts, the mini reactor produces an output of 7,369 cubic feet of hydrogen per hour (electricity equivalent of 626 kWh). The estimated cost of inputs is $1.68 per hour.
According to AirKinetics test, on input of 500 watts, the mini reactor produces an output of 2,797 cubic feet of hydrogen per hour (electricity equivalent of 237 kWh). The estimated cost of inputs is $1.80 per hour.
The range of differences in results needs explaining before anyone is going to front $120m.
The flow rates and purity are exciting, as is the energy cost $.
It seems that the reactor has been tweaked between the dates of test and different centres of analysis. Both centres are accredited which is good, flow rates can be difficult to take if the right equipment is not used, but still the lower rate is impressive. I would have thought at that flow rate for an hour, that a burn off stack would have been needed :D the risk of explosion with that volume in air would be huge.
The no oxygen is simple and more or less stated, "oxidation", there is no change to hydrogen even if it may be implied as a possibility by LENR, the numbers do not add up for that one. So if there is oxidation then there are two things to consider, 1. some thing is oxidised "change of state" 2. something is consumed "the item oxidised". This is not a problem, but would require maintenance.
Multi frequency and electromagnetic input are two items stated that take place, and of course electrolysis.
A catalyst is also mentioned, as these are normally not consummed, then I would take it as the type of electrolyte with the only input being water keeping it at it's concentration, "an ionic source".
Now the problem I have, because I have come up against it, is how can they extract the hydrogen fast enough from the water without using a vacuum? this then gives it's own problem of maintaining the vacuum at such an expansion rate of the evolving hydrogen!!! you would need a vacuum/compressor combined, that would skew your flow rates and why there are two very different test results :-\
All food for thought and I'm just mewsing ;)
regards
Mike 8)
The cavitation bubble can do.. ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP-l0Lgp4J4
A hho bubble collapsing might have similar properties to a cavitation bubble, that could be exploited as a secondary fuel processing technology (biodiesel).
The Vogt engine is similar to the hhop in many ways and could run on a hydrogen fuel.
http://www.overunity.com/13896/hho-hydrogen-and-diesel-injection-the-truth/msg379840/#msg379840
Quote from: evolvingape on 2014.10.08, 17:59:48
The cavitation bubble can do.. ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP-l0Lgp4J4
A hho bubble collapsing might have similar properties to a cavitation bubble, that could be exploited as a secondary fuel processing technology (biodiesel).
The Vogt engine is similar to the hhop in many ways and could run on a hydrogen fuel.
http://www.overunity.com/13896/hho-hydrogen-and-diesel-injection-the-truth/msg379840/#msg379840
Yes they mentioned cavitation as well, I will have to think more about that in relation to Hydrogen Trends reactor ???
The Vogt and your hhop rock O0
regards
Mike 8)
Dear Mike.
As a newcomer to this field, with little knowledge, how would pressurising the cell and then releasing said pressure work ? I envisage a massive release of gas just like opening a bottle of fizzy POP !!
You could fit a single piston pump with lip seal and apply pressure then release this pressure the piston opening a delivery port.
My own musings !! :)
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: Centraflow on 2014.10.08, 18:18:25
The Vogt and your hhop rock O0
regards
Mike 8)
Thanks Mike. I found out about the Vogt water engine recently when Graham told me about it, way after development of the hhop.
The Pulsometer was the base template for the hhop development, the major difference being the gas tube cell sleeved through the centre of the chamber.
The advanced shhop versions only have one moving part, an NRV on the inlet, and use the atmosphere as the gas spring.
An oil separator on the outlet reservoir and we get Oilgae product for biodiesel.
A piezoelectric transducer in the chamber generating an ultrasonic waveform at the d / c piston liquid piston surface, will generate atomised raw Oilgae which may be suitable for combustion.. ?
Very High Voltage Ignition 2 - 3 kV+ along the exposed electrode tube cell walls will probably trigger the combustion process of the liquid water vapour and steam.. ?
Liquid piston seals don't leak, ever :)
@all
I forgot to post my Hydrogen 3 video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0mrzY3LGkU
I think I also got an idea for open cell systems (not dry cell).
From what I can see close up, the speed to hydrogen production is relative to the level of bubbles that can leave the plate surface fast enough to permit more water contact with the plate since from there the reaction from water to H is instantaneous but the level goes down as bubbles keep sticking to the plate surface.
So my thinking is to take two horizontal titanium mesh plates like in the last portion of my Hydrogen 1 video. These plates would be horizontal and at each end I would mount the plates into a suitable flotation form so the the cell will be floating slightly below the water/air line in the tank. The flotation device will cover the plate and have a hole or slit in the center.
Once bubbles start forming this will change the buoyancy of the water that will create a downward momentum of the plates that could be aggressive enough to work any sticky bubbles off the plates. This up and down movement can be achieved at no additional energy cost and still provide some level of "free debubbling". I noticed this when I have tried shaking the plates by hand and have noticed more H production. Such floating plates could be designed to simply drop onto a lake or any other water source to produce H on the spot.
The floating plate system reminds me of many years ago I tendered for a Canadian Army request for a Mobile Water Treatment System. It had to be in modules of 200lbs max, assembled in 20 minutes and supply water from any local source for 1000 soldiers. It took me 3 months in those days I was using Win 95 and GemDraw and it took 15 seconds just to pan down a page. In order to accomplish this, I had negotiated with a high pressure pump manufacturer to make some changes to a certain model pump and they agreed it could be done. I supplied the tender and at the tender opening date, was advised the tender was cancelled and that I was the only one who tendered. 5 years later I see on the News, CDN Army in Bosnia unloading a MWTS and jumped up and said "Hey that's my exact design, those are the modules I designed." I found out that the CDN Army then sole sourced this to a company in Ontario and they sold for millions of bucks of equipment. My company was never invited to any other tenders. They just stole my work and had the systems made by one of their money friends. The design also included a floating pump that could be thrown into any open water supply. Anyways.....
The other thing for bigger wet cells is you may need a vibration source. Have some people used a vibration motor mounted to the tank so its vibrations could keep the plates free of stickies?
About dry cells, I am also wondering if anyone has tried to take a few turns of copper insulated wire to make an antenna loop that can simply be lowered around the cell and scoped, or, tanked to an led. Then try other coil types and positions. Since those plates are pulsing, may as well see if they can turn a few copper atoms at the same time for energy recovery. I am sure anything pulsing at 12-24 volts and 10-20 amps has a lot to sing about that pickup coils will just love. This would open a whole new area of research when running dry cells. I can see it now, "H Dry Cells - Now with DC Recovery!!!". hehehe
wattsup
Hi Wattsup
thanks for the last video, what I find strange is there does not seem to be gas coming off of the left electrode "O2", can you confirm this or am I missing something?
Seems that efficiency is best below 50% duty.
The frequency does not make much difference, I think you said at one point you were up into the Mhz range!
It shows up the link stream of gas bubbles really well, this is more due to the point end of the electrode, which comes down to electrode design once again.
regards
Mike 8)
Dear All.
We have finally solved the BANG issue !!
A home made flash arrester. Made from a couple of sintered Bronze air silencers and some Stainless Steel wool packed in between. I had hoped the Bronze would have worked on it's own but another bubbler died in the process of testing !! ;D
We will now be moving forward to testing on a larger engine, I will keep you posted.
Cheers Grum.
Graham,
Why don't you try a standard, 10", cheap, "off-the-shelf" water filter housing with a 1 micron Polyspun sediment cartridge fitted.
It STOPS the flame as well as it removes moisture & electrolyte from the gas!
If the housing is CLEAR, you can see the accumulated water which is removed from the gas.
Use it in a normal way with the "OUT" going to the engine. This means the exploding/burning gas will be in the CENTER of the cartridge.
You could reduce the volume of gas in that center (usually 1" diameter) by "filling" it with a plastic rod of, say, 1/2" diameter.
Cheers,
Les Banki
So who here thinks that an EMP is produced when HHO explodes/implodes, and who thinks not.
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.23, 05:49:05
So who here thinks that an EMP is produced when HHO explodes/implodes, and who thinks not.
Simple test, that I have actually done...
Take a 30 foot or so roll of Silastic tubing, insert an air-core coil, connect to your scope, fill the tubing with HHO and ignite. See if you don't get a whooper electrical impulse on the scope. Voltage I saw. Like a dummy I didn't think to measure the amperage too.
Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.10.23, 07:36:28
Simple test, that I have actually done...
Take a 30 foot or so roll of Silastic tubing, insert an air-core coil, connect to your scope, fill the tubing with HHO and ignite. See if you don't get a whooper electrical impulse on the scope. Voltage I saw. Like a dummy I didn't think to measure the amperage too.
Well i think Chet has waited long enough O0
I will be doing it a little different Matt. I will be using two air core coils wound on wooden formers. Then balloons full of different mixes(ratio's of ambiant air)will be detonated next to the coils-much to the neighbours displeasure i would imagine.
We will be testing and recording voltage and current(if there is any),and capturing the power in a few different size cap's. This will make it easy to work out joules of energy from each mix.
:o O0
This should be very interesting
Thx
Chet
Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.10.23, 07:36:28
Simple test, that I have actually done...
Take a 30 foot or so roll of Silastic tubing, insert an air-core coil, connect to your scope, fill the tubing with HHO and ignite.
I would have thought that this is potentially pretty hazardous.
If the tubing is reasonably large in diameter and if air gets in during the process and the mixture is then not exactly stoichiometric, then all will be well. But if it is a perfect stoichiometric mix from the cell, then the tubing could be blown to bits and the shockwave from the report might even blow someone's ear drums.
Paul R
quote
I would have thought that this is potentially pretty hazardous.
---------------------
"True Dat"
anytime you play with combustibles , always be prepared for the obvious .
Les has mentioned safety and ear protection many, many times.
thx
Chet
Quote from: Chet K on 2014.10.23, 16:04:26
Paul R
quote
I would have thought that this is potentially pretty hazardous.
---------------------
"True Dat"
anytime you play with combustibles , always be prepared for the obvious .
Les has mentioned safety and ear protection many, many times.
thx
Chet
Dear Chet.
Eh, Eh, did you say something ?? ;D
Seriously though, that mix is perfect for early Tinnitus !! Both my son and I are still suffering with severe ringing in the ears !!
Dear Brad.
Whilst you are annoying your neighbours would you be so kind as to try a Propane/Butane mix with air ? It might be an interesting test to see if an Hydrocarbon also creates this effect. Some months back I tried igniting a mix of HHO with a 300 turn coil on a Ferrite core around a small sample in a glass hypodermic syringe not a thing was measured !! Perhaps the Ferrite was not a great idea ??
Cheers Graham.
PS. Try freeze framing the attached WAV file. See the lightning !! :D
Perhaps the Ferrite was not a great idea ??
The ferrite absorbed the magnetic moment, maybe!
I did see somewhere that this had been tried, here is some writing on the subject
http://www.askamathematician.com/2011/11/q-why-do-a-nuclear-weapons-cause-emps-electromagnetic-pulses/
If you had a field there to start with, static charge, then the explosion would move it and create the event :-\
regards
Mike 8)
Quote from: Paul-R on 2014.10.23, 14:48:47
I would have thought that this is potentially pretty hazardous.
If the tubing is reasonably large in diameter and if air gets in during the process and the mixture is then not exactly stoichiometric, then all will be well. But if it is a perfect stoichiometric mix from the cell, then the tubing could be blown to bits and the shockwave from the report might even blow someone's ear drums.
Paul
You have that back to front. If it is pure HHO from the cell,then there will be an implosion-not explosion-->The PVC hose will simply collaps.
If ambiant air gets in the mix,then you will get an explosion.
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.24, 12:43:12
Paul
You have that back to front. If it is pure HHO from the cell,then there will be an implosion-not explosion-->The PVC hose will simply collaps.
If ambiant air gets in the mix,then you will get an explosion.
There will be an explosion because the gases will heat up and expand. If the tubing withstands this, then there will be an implosion as the products of combustion, steam, condense to water.
I would wager that, in the stoichiometric example, with fairly large diameter tubing, the tubing will be shredded and the operator will go deaf.
Igniting hydrogen and oxygen in a 2:1 ratio will explode first and then contract. Reason is the amount of energy released from this chemical reaction has to go somewhere, that energy produces a shock wave, that wave has a huge amount of energy in it.
Yes afterwards there is a cooling and reduction in volume, it is this that then causes what is deemed an implosion but really a reduction in volume.
I have often thought a motor/generator could be made using this, water plasma spark with a magnetic piston, "cylindrical neo", and around the outside a coil to collect AC current, the water would be used over and over again :)
I think Evolvingape has a similar idea.
regards
Mike 8)
Quote from: Paul-R on 2014.10.24, 15:35:16
I would wager that, in the stoichiometric example, with fairly large diameter tubing, the tubing will be shredded and the operator will go deaf.
Say what? Where you talking to me? ;D
With 3/8" ID clear Silastic tubing, what you will witness is the tube jump, an impulse if you will. The gas will become a pinkish orange plasma for a very brief moment then come right back to rest as though nothing happened. At least with Silastic tubing, it won't explode. This very flexible material will absorb the shock wave quite nicely. As long as you don't have your ear right next to the exit side of the tube, you won't hear anything in excess of large hammer striking a metal plate. What you won't see unless you have a very sophisticated high speed camera is the flame front move through the tubing. It will appear as if the whole tubing illuminates instantly.
So where do I collect that wager? :D
BTW, If you watch Steve from GreenFuelH2O test flashback suppressors, you will see the tubing doesn't explode. It doesn't explode when I extinguish my HHO torch either.
http://www.youtube.com/user/delvis11/videos
I recommend folks (i.e. Paul) go watch as many of these videos as you can find time for and you'll be up-to-speed with HHO fairly quick.
Quote from: Matt Watts on 2014.10.24, 18:49:09
Say what? Where you talking to me? ;D
With 3/8" ID clear Silastic tubing, what you will witness is the tube jump, an impulse if you will. The gas will become a pinkish orange plasma for a very brief moment then come right back to rest as though nothing happened. At least with Silastic tubing, it won't explode. This very flexible material will absorb the shock wave quite nicely. As long as you don't have your ear right next to the exit side of the tube, you won't hear anything in excess of large hammer striking a metal plate. What you won't see unless you have a very sophisticated high speed camera is the flame front move through the tubing. It will appear as if the whole tubing illuminates instantly.
So where do I collect that wager? :D
BTW, If you watch Steve from GreenFuelH2O test flashback suppressors, you will see the tubing doesn't explode. It doesn't explode when I extinguish my HHO torch either.
http://www.youtube.com/user/delvis11/videos
I recommend folks (i.e. Paul) go watch as many of these videos as you can find time for and you'll be up-to-speed with HHO fairly quick.
You are irresponsible, Matt Watts, to advise those who mighty read this thread to do as you suggest, and if they do just that, and their ear drums break, you may find that they use the legal system to trace you and take you to court for damages.
See 0.35 sec, and this is only a black plastic rubbish bag.remember that neither computers nor Youtube sound can cope with these sound pressure transients. The sound result will be "dumbed down".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqlbb_ojAdI
Quote from: Paul-R on 2014.10.25, 12:28:20
You are irresponsible, Matt Watts, to advise those who mighty read this thread to do as you suggest, and if they do just that, and their ear drums break, you may find that they use the legal system to trace you and take you to court for damages.
See 0.35 sec, and this is only a black plastic rubbish bag.remember that neither computers nor Youtube sound can cope with these sound pressure transients. The sound result will be "dumbed down".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqlbb_ojAdI
I'm not sure how to respond to that Paul. I can certainly keep my knowledge and understanding of HHO to myself and let others learn the hard way or not at all.
TinMan asked if anyone thinks the ignition of HHO creates an EMP; based on my testing, I think it does. I explained what I did and why I think that way.
I'm well on my way to becoming deaf, dumb and blind. When #2 is complete, y'all be on your own.
If you don't want my help, just say so. :(
Matt
Your experiment and observations have absolutely nothing in common with Paul R's example
of a 30 gallon waste bag filled with a combustible Gas.
One of the oddest comments I have ever read here, especially given the M.O. of the research involves combustion ??
the information you shared on a product which is inherently safe to use [do to its elastomeric qualities] is actually a very valuable safety tip.
thank you for that information as well as all your other helpful and informative contributions.
Chet
Quote from: Paul-R on 2014.10.25, 12:28:20
You are irresponsible, Matt Watts, to advise those who mighty read this thread to do as you suggest, and if they do just that, and their ear drums break, you may find that they use the legal system to trace you and take you to court for damages.
See 0.35 sec, and this is only a black plastic rubbish bag.remember that neither computers nor Youtube sound can cope with these sound pressure transients. The sound result will be "dumbed down".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqlbb_ojAdI
Please show us all where Matt said anything about a rubbish bag full of HHO,as i must have missed that bit ???
What Matt has described is a safe test,and nothing will explode or cause a deafening bang.All of us here are aware of the risk involved in experimenting,and we all are responsible for our own safety at the end of the day.
You had better not watch my next video Paul,as it involves large HHO explosions.
Quote from: Chet K on 2014.10.25, 17:00:27
Matt
thank you for that information as well as all your other helpful and informative contributions.
Thanks Chet.
Having worked at this facility for over seven years, I do have a little knowledge about and respect for some of the most dangerous items that exist on planet earth. Take note of the little igloo building where I spent a good portion of my time.
http://www.dugway.army.mil/videos.aspx
Yes, I know what can harm a person and a small flexible tube filled with HHO ain't it.
Bottom line, if someone wants to learn first hand, they need to think straight, act smartly and get over their fear. Only then can they experience the full depth and breadth of their human embodiment.
And speaking of irresponsible behavior...
This would have never happened if I was in charge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbBk0Y6cQZQ
Quote from: TinMan on 2014.10.25, 23:00:46
.All of us here are aware of the risk involved in experimenting,
Yes, but this does not apply to members of the public who just stroll in.
There was a very sad incident several years ago on Bob Boyce's Hydroxy Yahoo group when somebody's mother logged on to blame Bob for the death of her son. The bottom line was that the son, along with everyone else, had been warned a thousand times. But he died, and she blamed Bob.
If anyone encourages others on a publicly available forum to stick a lighted cigarette lighter to hydroxy gas, then it should be accompanied by a severely phrased warning.
Don't forget that it is not the explosion (before the implosion) and resultant potential destruction of the vessel holding the HHO that does the damage; it is the shockwave generated by the flame front, since the flame front advances at well in excess of mach 1.
Quote from: Paul-R on 2014.10.26, 14:19:12
Yes, but this does not apply to members of the public who just stroll in.
There was a very sad incident several years ago on Bob Boyce's Hydroxy Yahoo group when somebody's mother logged on to blame Bob for the death of her son. The bottom line was that the son, along with everyone else, had been warned a thousand times. But he died, and she blamed Bob.
If anyone encourages others on a publicly available forum to stick a lighted cigarette lighter to hydroxy gas, then it should be accompanied by a severely phrased warning.
Don't forget that it is not the explosion (before the implosion) and resultant potential destruction of the vessel holding the HHO that does the damage; it is the shockwave generated by the flame front, since the flame front advances at well in excess of mach 1.
And yet no matter how much we try and teach the dangers of a motor vehicle,people still die in car accidents.
Matt's test is safe-and thats the bottom line. O0
Paul R
Again you bring an inappropriate worst case scenario to justify your telling Matt his ity bitty soft flexible clear hose experiment will cause harm.
having worked all my life with high risk safety issues and teaching people how NOT to hurt themselves,it is a proven fact that the single most dangerous weapon in the hands of humanity is a screw driver [OSHA fact]
more people are blinded stabbed maimed or otherwise injured by the improper use of a screwdriver [ hammering prying pounding etc etc]
where should we start the disclaimer...how about the hazards of oxygen??
:o
Or maybe you could write the disclaimer ??
thx
Chet
Quote from: Chet K on 2014.10.26, 14:32:31
Or maybe you could write the disclaimer ??
Fair enough.
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Hydroxy Gas, aka HHO, being a stoichiometric mix of H2 and O2.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This gas is of profound interest and potential benefit, as is dynamite, nitroglycerine
and many other similar products. The advice of the top researcher in this area, Bob Boyce,
is that it is safest generated and used in situ - i.e. make it under the bonnet and feed it
straight to the carburettor.
BE AFRAID - BE VERY AFRAID of using it in other scenarios. It is useful but is capable,
when out of control, of blowing a wall out of a room. viz Werner Von Braun's early
attempts at a similar technologyi when the gases become stoichiometric by mistake.
The flame speed exceeds the speed of sound and the shock wave can burst ear drums.
If you are worried, then you may be facing a bright future.
If you are not worried, you may well die soon.
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
.
.
Dear All.
Slightly off topic but of interest to us " Petrol Heads " , " Gasoline Heads " .
I have attached a photo of one of the largest Spark plugs I personally have ever seen. This was fitted, along with 3 others to one of the UK's largest single cylinder Suction Gas engines !! The Gas was so difficult to ignite that all four plugs were used together.
Stories abound regarding a miss fire would cause the heavy Cast Iron exhaust cover to be blown over 150 feet into the air !! :D
Sadly the engine was worth far too much as scrap and no longer exists, just a few plugs remain.
My Son and I spent a wonderful day at the Anson Engine museum, the home of these plugs, showing off the little Leek Gas engine running on HHO. There was great interest shown and also a few overheard conversations of Government covering up this sort of technology !!
Kind of makes you think ?? ;)
Cheers Grum.
Grum's little Leek gas engine is a beauty and operates on an interesting cycle.. O0
With some care it could be developed into a linear hot gas piston cycle, ditch the rotary crank assembly.
hhop provides the capability to pump the coolant (hhop electrolyte) and therefore heat, around the loop using working fluid fuel pressure (water electrolyte).
The ignition function can be moved from hhop d/c chamber to hot gas piston chamber.. driving a secondary cold gas piston linear generator running on a refrigeration cycle from the heat produced. ;)
hhop provides heat pump fluid transfer to heat exchanger to drive cold gas piston linear generator using an external combustion cycle function to drive the hot and cold gas piston linear axial cycles.
:)
Hi evolving ape just finished reading through this thread which seems to have been slumbering for a little while. I was looking for an appropriate thread to host some historical information this seemed to fit the bill and is related ,hope you don't mind.
The water car museum
Hard to believe but there was once a museum (in Kentucky) dedicated to the display of water engines, water cars and the technology . As you might imagine such a thing would not be long for this planet.
however the museum did publish an 'in house book' written by the curator James A Robey and it was issued with a DVD containing three short (ish) video's .
It was from one of those videos a year or so ago that Brad re-created the 'Santilli experiment' sure you remember the balloons and the pops and bangs, most enjoyable .
I thought perhaps a little more of the same - might inspire more investigation . (and pops and bangs) here then is that now unobtainable book 'The water car' in pdf form. (that takes a little time)
oddly the books still listed on Amazon however order it and - it will never arrive (there is no museum now). The three clips from the DVD I've converted and posted on you tube in the order they were presented . I hope you guys find the information of merit. The videos are not very good quality sorry I had nothing to do with the 'first take' and I can't polish a turd, they are what they are!
The water car Book pdf http://dnp.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/c/c4_%24folder%24Water%20Car%2C%20J.A.%20Robey.pdf
(http://dnp.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/c/c4_%24folder%24Water%20Car%2C%20J.A.%20Robey.pdf)
Herman Pleasant Anderson water car interview https://youtu.be/banxZktXrwQ (https://youtu.be/banxZktXrwQ)
The Santilli experiment https://youtu.be/PfMHq64CW9U (https://youtu.be/PfMHq64CW9U)
Bob Boyce interview https://youtu.be/Soc_kZ5ihMw (https://youtu.be/Soc_kZ5ihMw)
I'm aware there's plenty of skilled guys in this area on our forum still even they might find a few nuggets of information hidden away in this book and the video's, I hope so . Interesting to see someone elses take on things anyway .
Kind regards Duncan