OverUnity Research

The 'Dolphin' thread was beginning to incorporate many divergent ideas and I thought this motor deserved a thread of its own.

The MMG is a concept resulting from Lidmotors excellent 'Frog Hair' motor video, which can be found here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0Nu4dKhUHg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0Nu4dKhUHg)

MMG - Minnesota Mountain Goat, refers to the quip about the flatness of MN, when I moved to the USA from England.
The line being about tiny thin gauge wire "Thinner than a hair from a Minnesota Mountain Goat"...which of course don't exist.
Lidmotor's motor uses 2 coils of 2000ohms each and a simple switching transistor circuit, with an LED across the flyback from the pickup coil.

My idea, is to use DF coils (Dancing Flower solar dancers from Dollar Tree), to first of all emulate and then to carry the concept forward. Full idea, is to use principles of the Lasersaber EZ Spin and coil energy pickup, to see where we can go toward highly efficient running.

As such, the great news is, that the motor runs on 4x DF coils in series for the trigger coil and 4x DF coils as the pickup coils.
This first setup is very rough and scruffy, but works.
2x DF coil based motor coils - 1923 ohms and 2033ohms
Transistor - MPSA18
Resistor - none !
Power - 0.1F supercap charged up with a 3V coin cell, then the coin cell is removed once it starts up.
The motor ran for 25 minutes on its first test run.
From 1.683V to 1.523V during the run took ~5 minutes
The thing is, the LED is lit all the way through and offers capture potential through a diode.
Nothing at all is optimised yet, in fact the rotor started to wobble badly a few minutes into the run.
A very interesting phenomena, is that the motor needs a high spin velocity to start, but after which, it carries on even with much lower RPM's than it took to start it up !
Also, on connection of anything above 1V, the slightest of spin of the rotor will trigger the circuit into an 'on' condition, whereby the red LED lights continually. The rotor can then remain stationary or be removed and the LED stays lit.

Here is the video of the first run, apologies for the state of the build table:

 O0

Very good, Mark - congratulations on that first run, and no resistor!
Below are two circuits we've been discussing lately; are you using the one on the left?  (sans resistor)

Cheers Steve :)
Yep, it's the one on the left.
All magnets are North facing out, which indeed is the same for the Andrews circuit also shown.

The decision to remove the resistor was when trying out some disc magnets that arrived yesterday. At 3mmx1mm they were intended to be stacked 3 or 4 deep to optimize rotor balance and triggering and to clean up the look of the rotors. Turns out that there is a world of difference between N35 neo's and N50. These are too weak and don't induce much at all into the coil.
On changing to some cut pieces from a computer HDD magnet, the motor fired up.

Next is to put a variable pot onto the Base, then current measuring for differences and to reroute the LED output.
After that, another stack of 4 coils (as 1 collector coil) to be an energy harvester.
What I really like, is the way that the other systems have been erring toward around 1V as best efficiency...but this motor type spins a lot faster than they have for similar voltage and current draw. It means that more energy can be obtained from pickup methods.

Just a few rhetorical questions about the EZspin project:

What fractional horsepower measurements have been made to ascertain that there is indeed a benefit over miniature and ultra miniature motors of conventional design in all of their various incarnations?

What practical use can one imagine for such a motor that has not already been provided by such above named motors of conventional design?

If a motor just spins for a long time, and can do no practical work by delivering fractional horsepower to a load, of what use is it?

Where do you envision the research will lead? What is the goal? Where are the goalposts?

Good questions ION.
Some of which I can answer, some of which are for everyone who wishes to develop efficient low power motor designs.
Rather than remain rhetorical, it would serve well to answer them here.

My own goals have included efficiency of run times, further than a previous record of 19 minutes for a 1F supercap some years ago. But, in doing so, the learning encompasses related common topics such as the SSG and small sized battery charging.
There's every reason to develop better rotor designs and circuitry, to do the same jobs.
If, and it's a big if of course, remote rotor pickup by magnetic coupling can return more energy than is being used by the motor, then that is of interest to everyone in our field of research.
EZ Spin design derivatives use less energy the slower they go. When a remote rotor is introduced, the speed of the motor is impacted through the magnetic cogging. However, that negative impact can be turned to an advantage. The remote rotors generate effectively and only the careful timing to magnetically lock with the driving rotor forms the limit to the amount of remote rotors that can be employed as generators. Moreso, remote rotors can have other remote rotors spinning from their own magnetic field interactions, to no detriment !

Horsepower measurements are of the wrong order of magnitude. They are also of little importance to, for example, a solar powered bathroom extractor fan, but would be for a pulley driven electronic curtains closer.
Practical uses are a good area to explore, else yes, some of the research could be deemed folly.
On viewing Lasersabers original videos of the EZ Spin concept, he demonstrates relatively high torque for his low power design...rather than a drinking straw being used to demonstrate through noise and friction, it would be able to rotate a fan blade.
 
Regular motors of miniature design may include popular modelling variants of 4mm, 6mm and 8mm diameter. Of coreless construction they generate ~20,000 RPM and high torque. However, their efficiency is within those parameters and can typically deplete a charged 3.7V LiPo battery in around 6 minutes.
These high ohm motors serve a very different sector and function.

Also, sometimes there need be no practical use. It is, after all, the concept of novelty desktop toys which brought the Andrews Patent of the mid 1970's. From which, even now, products are for sale and that Patent still supplies people with employment.

 

Slider, thanks for addressing those questions.

A worthwhile exercise ION, because others likely wonder the reasons for such research :)

There have been some good progress developments with this motor.
The rattling and wobbling is now gone from the rotor, due to much care and attention being given to the balancing. As mentioned, the new magnets were found to be too weak (N35), but the plier cracked HDD magnets were too far apart in sizings to allow for a smooth run at most voltages and speeds.
All is now much smoother. The result being, the motor will run down to a measured 1.086V.
Lidmotor stated there were troubles with his setup at below 1.5V and, because his constructions are never bodged together, it's my opinion that the MPSA18 is a more competent transistor for this motor than his MPSA06. The current gain is far larger for one thing.
What that translates to, is faster rotation speed, more efficient power usage and less wear on the tile underneath.

A flyback capture method was tried, that unfortunately hasn't shown positive results.
Patrick (Cool Joule on YouTube) showed a video where he changed the LED for a diode and cap return method to the battery.
A diode runs from the Collector, into a 1uF HV cap, the other leg of the cap being connected to the EB diode of a transistor. That transistor then connects to the run battery/cap Positive terminal.
His theory, was that the internal transistor diode that connects to the battery would limit throughput to 14V (MPSA06). The rest of the coil spike being contained in the capacitor and presumably allowing 14V discharges into the run source.
However, when tested here, I was seeing voltages on the cap of approximately only 0.6V higher on the cap than the measured battery voltage. In other words, the transistor diode drop difference.
It's still basically the route to take though for flyback capture, Joule Thief circuits being able to capture in similar ways. I just think that the cap is soaking the spike up without being useful in storage to actually do anything positive for the run source.  
Whereas, say in a SSG, that spike is the charging method for a power source.

Current measurements:
Meter used - UNI-T 136B

I wanted to see how close this motor of mine runs compared to Lidmotors original. Hopefully in the same ball park for figures and a good base point from which to calculate changes in any case.
Various configurations have been tried this morning.

First of all, the 0.1F cap was charged up to 1.4V.
Current readings changed every half second or so as the meter sampled, from 1.4uA (?!) to around 77uA. The average being pretty close to Lidmotors 40uA and indeed works as confirmation of his results :)

Then the cap was charged to 1.94V, with a 3V coin cell. A germanium diode,  plus 0.1uF ('104' orange ceramic) cap were fitted in series from the transistor Collector to the Positive terminal of the 0.1F run cap. The idea, was to isolate the returning backspike...because a direct connection of the diode stopped the rotor. It's all similar to audio amplifier isolations and seems to work fine on motor outputs. Of course, if it did nothing then it wouldn't be useful !  

Without the diode and 0.1uF, current measured was an average of 130uA
With the diode and 0.1uF 95uA

So, how about at 1.4V ?
No higher than approx 55uA, with an average of around 25uA
:)

Pic attached, not the best but hopefully shows the method.

Hi Guys

I don't have any of the high-impedance frog-hair wire coils to test, although I'm trying to find some. All the "dollar stores" around here seem to be permanently sold out of the "dancing flower" things.

But... I know that the transistor switching circuit is itself inherently lossy. So I'm wondering why not try a simple reed switch with this motor. The high-Z coils, switched by the properly positioned reed switch, should give really long runtimes on the capacitor power supply, and you'll be able to harvest the backspike in the usual way, I think, without the complication of losses in the transistor.

I've found that the tiny reed switch inside an inexpensive DIP reed-relay chip can be used effectively, and the contacts can be protected against arcing and welding by putting a tiny ceramic cap across the contacts.

My little motor uses some pretty low resistance coils so I'm using a lot more current, but the supply voltage is much lower than you can achieve with a transistor switch. Also, my little "minipulse" motor uses a bipolar rotor, so I had to pre-bias the reed relay chip with an external magnet so it would only switch on one polarity of the rotor passage. The coil of the relay isn't used at all, just the reed contacts.
(warning: strobotac in use in the following videos, flashing lights warning...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdNdR8Uz_dA

Here's an earlier video in the MiniPulse sequence where I explain the reed relay driver circuit, the location of the "sweet spot" for pre-bias magnet position, and show the backspike collection system firing a NE-2 neon (using quite a bit higher input voltage and current though).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFLBrRfXfJ0

I think with the really high impedance coils you should be able to get similar action with your much lower input power levels, and you should be able to harvest backspikes too.

I would guess that the reed switch system would allow even longer runtimes than you are presently getting, using the capacitor power source at low voltage levels.

I'm still looking for some coils like yours to try this idea, but it would be pretty easy for you to do it if you can get hold of a similar tiny reed relay in the DIP package.

Like these:
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/rly-495/5-vdc-dip-reed-relay/1.html

Thanks for the info and vid links TK  O0

In the dolphin thread and the EZ Spin replication thread, a reed was used.
This design of Lidmotors is, in effect, 4 'compass point' coils around the rotor, in 1 bigger coil.
So, it will have no problems at all with a reed.

Those reeds on the last link are very similar to some that I unfortunately threw out some time ago. Thought they were resistor modules lol and only later realised they were for the handset detection in some old cordless phone handsets.
But now, the preference is for small glass encased types. I cut the leads off right at the glass join (carefully) and then solder 30AWG wires to those points. It reduces the metals pull.
You have far more experience with this sort of motor than I, so am very appreciative of your input :)

I'll try a reed on this setup. A focus, in some ways, has been to see how efficient the electronic switching can be. I don't like the rotor drag of a reed....but have been very surprised at the robustness of them so far. 10's of hours of running and only 1 failure, probably because of trialing that setup at 9V.
Envisaged run voltages are approx 1.4V to 3V.
Your ceramic cap method of spike protection is a great tip - thanks !  


Edit to add:
Some tips for the dancers.
Boxes of 48 of the dancers can be ordered from Dollar Tree's website (dollartree.com).
An alternative way of doing things for small quantities, is to go in and ask the staff when their next shipment is due. Go in on that day and you'll get the things...but as told to me "we had 9 cases of these last year and they went in 1 day".
Look on the base for the design date. In mid 2014 they changed to 5mmx3mm neodymium magnets for the swinging bit and they work brilliantly on these sort of motors. It's a cost less to think about.
Dates such as 2013, as seen on the dancing Devils for Valentines at the moment have ceramic in them. While useful in their own right, they are too heavy and bulky. They are the equivalent strength of the neo's though and how China will have arrived at 5mmx3mm.
Later models have a better glue to affix the coil to the plastic base than earlier ones. All will likely have the better glue now.
To remove a coil from a base, the most reliable method i've found is to use an electric stove ring. Put the ring on the highest setting (orange glow). Bring the plastic base to within 1/2" of the element, making sure that the coil is also over it. Wait a few seconds for the plastic to start bending and folding with the heat and then remove. Quickly lift the coil from the edge where you were holding it and the coil will pull off easily. If not, heat again for 5 or 6 seconds. I've just removed the coils from the last 4 of my box of 48 and haven't broken any by using that method.  

The motor has been converted to reed switch operation.
At 1.4V, speed has been markedly slower than with the transistor circuit, with current spikes of ~250uA.
Otherwise, the current is zero between reed closings..presumably average current will be (RPM / 4) / 250.
There is only 1 coil needed though, instead of 2 and a reed would allow much lower running voltages.
The rotating speed is what i've been looking at for energy harvesting, all else being broadly equal.
With an envisaged operating voltage of ~1.4V, i'll probably go back to the transistor set up, with its ~25uA usage for now.

Also, a 3rd set of 4 coils has been made, which has a slightly lower reading of 1923 ohms.
That will be trialed as a pickup coil.

  Good information for future builders, Mark - thank you!

  Can you tell which approach might be better for harvesting fly-back energy,  reed-switches or transistors?

@Slider:
You may now be seeing duty cycle issues with the reed switch. To get the optimum pulse width you may need to play with the radial position, or even pre-bias the switch with a little magnet on the side of the switch away from the rotor. Optimum timing by circumferential position adjustment. My intuition tells me that you should be able to get the same RPM with the same number of coils, but at lower power levels, than with the transistor, once the reed is adjusted just right. This might be more trouble than it's worth though, since the selftriggering transistor system "automagically" takes care of these issues.

I also think that the reed system will ultimately deliver greater collapse spike than a transistor could, for a given input power,  because the reed is potentially able to switch with faster rise/fall time than the transistor will.  The tiny reed switch inside the DIP chip might be better for this motor than the larger discrete reedswitch that you are using, maybe. Do you have a link for the exact part you are using?

Thanks guys.
My problem is that reeds do always win out in own builds, removing the need for >0.6V and minimum current.
But it's been confusing to carefully set the reed and see a lower RPM, with also seemingly very similar current draw.
The fastest collapse is a goal and that should entail a MOSFET (small package type) or another way with no parasitics...which would be the reed.

To confuse everything, the motor was redone as transistor fired and now behaves in a remarkably odd way that I can't fathom.
Changing out the transistor removed the thoughts of the original starting to fail etc.
It only needs the firing coil, no pickup coil and will fire for a few seconds with a hand spin. The LED flashes strongly as it goes, with nothing connected to the Base of the transistor !
RPMs pick up, so it's not just the action of induction causing the flashing. The flashing subsides to a flickering glow and then the motor stops some while later.
Will get a video of it.
No matter what I do though, that flash of the LED can't be translated to a pulse to the Base.
Originally thought to be something SSG type related, it doesn't seem to be. I tried a 1000uH axial inductor and small ceramic caps in parallel, variable resistor and other ideas, in the hope that a delay could be introduced. The idea being to emulate a reed firing a few degrees different to TDC (to use a car term). It seems it should work, somehow, to the eye.

Here are the reeds:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Snail-Mail-10pcs-10x-Reed-Switch-Glass-N-O-Low-Voltage-Current-2x14mm-/121149315417

Here's the video.
Of note, the rotor spins very well and then loses speed quite rapidly after a point. That point was when talking of the other tile that i'll swap over to. When I go back to the rotor, it's slowed down quite a lot compared to how it was running.
Everything is probably clearer in person.
The pickup in rotor speed makes it of interest, rather than mere induction spikes causing the LED to light. The LED is across the coil, so that was the first thought.
Also, the LED flashes at a much slower rate than 4 speeding magnets past the coil would seem to suggest would be correct. The flash rate you see in the short video is the flash rate in person.

Any help in understanding the effect would be appreciated.

Update -
Have swapped everything over to a better white bathroom tile.
The cause of non running was found to be a broken coil.
No idea about the perplexing run characteristics of the single coil running above, but in one way it was only that the other coil broke that allowed those findings.

Here it is running properly and from the table lamp as power source, using a solar garden light panel.
Panel is putting out 2.1V at 173uA.




Now to tidy up again and test out some harvesting ideas.

@TK

QuoteYou may now be seeing duty cycle issues with the reed switch. To get the optimum pulse width you may need to play with the radial position, or even pre-bias the switch with a little magnet on the side of the switch away from the rotor. Optimum timing by circumferential position adjustment. My intuition tells me that you should be able to get the same RPM with the same number of coils, but at lower power levels, than with the transistor, once the reed is adjusted just right. This might be more trouble than it's worth though, since the selftriggering transistor system "automagically" takes care of these issues.

I would agree, I found a solution to this problem by using two reed switches in series a little over one magnet diameter apart. The fist switch closes but does not close the circuit until the second one closes just as the first is opening because the magnet has passed it. As such the pulse width can be very very small as it is not determined by one reed switch but the difference between the two.

I have not tried more than two reed switches however I would suspect the pulse width could have extremely low values possibly ns however a consistent pulse width may become an issue.

AC

Quote from: AllCanadian
I would agree, I found a solution to this problem by using two reed switches in series a little over one magnet diameter apart. The fist switch closes but does not close the circuit until the second one closes just as the first is opening because the magnet has passed it. As such the pulse width can be very very small as it is not determined by one reed switch but the difference between the two.

AC,

That  is a truly ingenious solution to the problem
of finding a simple non-electronic way to adjust
pulse width!  A Magnetic And Gate with period
(Clock) overlap to achieve a desired pulse width.

Knowledge is a beautiful thing!

That really is a great idea and certainly worth trying out !
Will probably do that tomorrow as we have a forcasted 67F for the temp.

A personal goal has been achieved just now, something small but previously out of reach.
The idea, was to step up the game from the solar panel powering and move to light power with no solar panel :)
The system now runs from the CFL table lamp, using the same sort of slightly modified harvesting circuit as YouTube user 'Inventor3' demonstrated. My version has no connection between the first diodes and the join of the 2 output capacitors.
It's the same thing that runs the digital clock seen in some videos.
I use a CD or HDD platter as collection metal, an old radio antenna as extra pickup, that then is isolated with tape as it is held in place by a PC heatsink. The heatsink forms a Ground, which the circuit connects to.
Anyway, the result is a constant 0.98V, under the load of the running motor.

Here's a quick demo video:

@Slider: that harvester circuit is really neat, you are powering the motor from "electrosmog" as I like to call it, and it's all around us as wasted power from our conventional systems. Finding ways to harvest and use it is one of my own areas of interest.
Thanks for the link to the reed switches, I'm ordering some this afternoon (but from China probably, at about 15 cents each...)

@Allcanadian: Very clever idea with a lot of flexibility, that use of two reeds in series. Thanks for posting it!

@Slider again: I'm wondering if those little reeds will close from the field of a coil wrapped around the glass envelope...   ^-^

--TK

@TK - Electrosmog is a good name for it and a term that average folks can understand. Smog also has that 'air' about it of us wishing to remove it and utilise it.
I somewhat dropped my guard with the present setup last night and it's one of those bizarre things that may not be realised from such a low output power source. The problem happens when a load is disconnected, the voltage builds up. I had simply removed the HDD platter from the top of the antenna last night, to let the motor spin down, because the input isn't high enough without the platter. Got up today and put the platter back on while making a coffee. Went to start experiments and turned the meter on...14.3V haha
With 16V capacitors things can get hairy for safety, because left unchecked i've had 35V showing on such circuits !
Must say though, that the thought of a cap blowing from the emissions of a table lamp does appeal  >:-)

Hmmm, to run at 60Hz you mean ? that would be very cool.
If you have a 3V or so wall adapter you'll often see the mains hum carrying on through to its output. A simple pulse motor rotor and a coil directly across the adapter output wires will allow that motor to run at multiples of 60RPM. No circuit required. It takes some deft flicks of the rotor to get it synced up, but is neat to then see it running.

@TK
Hello TK,
It gets better when we run with this thought. I imagine we all have had to address the same issues at one time or another and one of mine was very high energy impulses with extremely sharp rise and fall times in the low ns range. They just didn't make an affordable single mosfet that could handle large current at high voltage because the gate capacitance would always rise in proportion to the current rating. That damn gate capacitance meant a large mosfet driver was required to even come close to the spec switching times. Then it occurred to me...why not two?, why not use a 556 dual timer with two separate frequencies to drive two cheap mosfets in series as one switch. If the real ON time is the difference between the two input frequencies to the two mosfets then two slow switching mosfets can have any ON time into the low ns range so long as the second mosfet turns on just as the first mosfet turns off.

It opens up quite a few possibilities simply because we could have switch pairs scattered about a circuit routing power here or there based on a single threshold or the difference between two or more and it solved many problems I was having which seemed to have no solution. I guess it is true that necessity is the mother of invention because most of the things I want to do in my circuits seem to have no easy solution if any at all so I have to keep making up stuff as I go along.

Edit: I should mention my nemisis has always been common ground paths and isolation with mosfet switching so if anyone has any suggestions I would be happy to hear them.

AC

@AC - that's some pretty good stuff you've made up then !
Makes complete sense, split the difference.
Plus, opens up non electronic means, such as the reeds.
A question though. The timing difference for a pulse motor would be based on the speed of the rotor ? As such, would the rotor have to be speed governed or do you think there is a range of fast switching..as in, above 1000RPM the system will work and any faster would be extra performance.
That may be a little link to the 60Hz thoughts. To use a known frequency as speed governor. AC rides on top of a DC voltage readily and need not draw power from a wall outlet as such, but use electrosmog for the function.


Here's a quick vid. Nothing too exciting, I just wanted to explore the properties a bit of micro input power and load handling.
The table light was switched off and the 470uF cap allowed to discharge down to around transistor switch on voltage. Then, the light was switched on and I wondered how things would stabilise out, indeed would it do that or would the rotor stop.
(the blurry imagery clears up after the first few seconds)

@slider2732

QuoteA question though. The timing difference for a pulse motor would be based on the speed of the rotor ? As such, would the rotor have to be speed governed or do you think there is a range of fast switching..as in, above 1000RPM the system will work and any faster would be extra performance.
That may be a little link to the 60Hz thoughts. To use a known frequency as speed governor. AC rides on top of a DC voltage readily and need not draw power from a wall outlet as such, but use electrosmog for the function.

I discovered the 2 switch reed switch while building Ossie Callanans motor way back when which is still one of my favorite circuits -- http://www.syscoil.org/medias/pdf/documents/a_working_radiant_free_energy_system.pdf

It solves many of the issues concerning reed switch arcing which is an issue and the rotor switching at speed does become an issue as you suggested. One option is to use a secondary coil instead of a PM to bias the reed switch such as Ossie was doing in which case the changing induced current in the coil biases the reed switch to produce more consistent results. Basically we want to optimize the switching at the sweet spot of the motor where the input and output/drag forces balance.

I'm not even going to tell you how many damn reed switches I have arced together, it always starts with a small click and ends with a big puff of smoke, lol.

AC

Thanks for the further info.
TK's cap trick seems to work fine across a reed, or an LED/snubber diode. Very gentle things though and I hate it when removing a rotor say and a magnet sticks directly to the switch !
Have heard a lot about the Ossie motor, without knowing much about it. Thanks too for the PDF.


Here's another goal met, albeit again only a sideline small thing.
To run a motor from dirt outside in the back garden. It's been a bit of a quest for some time. One thing that would have to happen, no watering or salt added ! it hasn't rained here for over a week, making it a good day for such a test.
It also allowed another test of micro power, from a different source.
A line of thinking being, that if some energies are around us all the time, then a few uA of a problem area preventing self running needn't matter. A device would run anyway.





Am going to build a crystal radio ;)

Quote from: Slider2732 link=topic=2784.msg46003#msg46003 date=1423948146


Am going to build a crystal radio ;)
/quote]

Dear Slider2732.

Never mind a Crystal set, try this......

http://www.panospappas.gr/FREEENERGY.htm

I used a 75 foot long single PVC insulated, stranded Copper wire at 0.75 mm sq, aerial. Slung from the house roof and off down to a suitable tree. I never got less than 2 V DC and up to 4 V DC on a cyclic 24 hr basis.

PJ Kelly's book also has reference to this and has sited that these simple modules can be " Ganged " to give better output.

Worth a try !!  ;)

Cheers Grum.

 O0
That's the same circuit as I used when it was running from the table light !
See how that middle line is somewhat dashed out on the drawing ? i found that omitting it seemed to give better throughput.

A couple of years back experiments were undertaken with something similar, as a way to collect radiant energy without getting blasted to smithereens during storms here in Oklahoma. Coax ran across and back along our back garden fence a few times.
I've reused the wire since within BAC'S (wireless energy large pancake coils), but you've reminded me about it all and such sources, thanks :)
Here's a vid of that:

Yes indeed, am always a fan too of using the Earth for powering things. It was just another of those little goals, that never seemed to quite get there in the past. It helped that I found the magnesium fire starter in a box today lol


Some news - i've managed to get the motor down to using just 10.3uA  :D
The coils were slightly altered in distance..in fact moving the powering coil slightly away reduced the current, which seems opposite to what was expected. Perhaps it's the eddy currents in 2K of copper wire ?
All of which has been delaying moving to double reed firing, which i'm really quite interested in. If 10.3uA can be achieved electronically, i really wonder about the reed system now.

With attaining the 2 goals of the day, i've uploaded a public version of the experiments.
It's of use in the thread though, because it shows that crazy good current draw:

Wow!  that is great progress, Mark!   O0
  Spinning away at 1 V and 10.3 micro-amps, so about 10 uW.  That is truly remarkable!

And thanks for providing additional links in the caption, also -- truly open-source research you are conducting!

Thanks for the kind comments Steve :)
In the comments on the video, Tony Ward has put "Can you get this device to charge a real battery while it is running "on dirt"?"
Thinking about such an idea, the motor has been converted to charge a 1.2V AAA. The diode plus cap returning from the Collector is now just the diode, the battery is connected to the diode and the Positive power input side. It's set up like an SSG.
Starting voltage was 1.237V under the indoor light and i'll go back to it in half an hour to see about any change.
At a few uA and 2K of resistance it may not do anything, but is worth a go :)

Must be able to find 10uW from somewhere !


Edit -
After half an hour, the voltage is 1.240V
3mV lol, but it would be useful if run constantly. Use batteries over a week, replace with charged, that sort of scenario.
Also, it allowed a current reading without the diode + cap spike return, of 16.7uA.
Therefore the return method does work still at such low input levels, reducing current by 6.4uA.

Some updates -
Patrick (Cool Joule) mentioned running the motor in the A field. That means turning the drive coil sideways, but i'm unsure what it's supposed to do for running characteristics. His 'Reply' button isn't enabled, so could one of you gents explain that to me ? :)
I'm a little reticent to change that coil, as it's in the best spot found up to now.

Powdered ferrite is doing well !
What I have are 2 different methods that are being tested. The first, is a dusting of CRT yoke ferrite on paper, using white glue to stick it. The second, is a filling of a small piece of a drinks straw.
They have been initially tried behind a 4x 500ohm coil stack, being used as a pickup coil.
Slow turning of the rotor shows seemingly no negative impact or cogging....perhaps due to the back of the coil being a good distance from the magnets.
As an example, when running, the pickup may show 1.000V. Adding the paper behind the coil turns that to 1.1V.
Next up, is to try different lengths of the straw, but also to increase the depth of ferrite dust on the paper until cogging is noticed at the slow test RPM's.

Reed switch placement has been tried. The idea was 2, side by side in series, on top of the driving coil.
The problem seems to be that my setup uses small broken bits of magnets and their field has trouble reaching up over the top of the coil (?). Also, the pull of the reeds upsets balance...a deficiency in the semi-levitated method i'm using.
That idea was to base it on the PDF as kindly linked by AllCanadian. I like the multiple ring characteristics of the Ossie motor.  
Still, on their way are a bunch of 8mmx1mm magnets, which by being larger might well allow that configuration to be properly tried out.

  Lidmotor has posted an interesting video,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClsghfUdxhU&feature=em-uploademail

  Seems Lidmotor is following what Slider is doing - and gives a nice tribute to Mark's work.   O0

Thanks for posting the link Steve.
He's got a decent setup there, using 50V caps for safety (the CFL capable of charging the onboard caps to 35V) and 1N34A germanium diodes.
I presume the metal lampshade is isolated from mains wiring, so it would be possible to simply clip a lead to the circuit and maybe run it down the lamp for neatness, rather than use the foil as collector. The extra mass and far larger dimensions of the shade ought to offset the increased distance from the bulb.

The 1N34 type of Germanium small signal diodes are
becoming rather rare.  It should be possible to replace
them with a modern Schottky small signal diode.

Schottky Diode Overview (http://www.electronics-radio.com/articles/electronic_components/diode/schottky-barrier-diode.php)

Schottky Diode Applications Notes (http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/supportDoc.do?type=appNotes&category=815)

Thanks :)
I missed why you changed your name btw, or should say, anagram'd it.

There are still some germaniums around, but I do recognise their retreating into rarity. In fact, from a bag of 50 OA90's a year or so back, I keep looking for any old projects to remove them and reuse. 0.196V is the average meter tested forward voltage and there were 1 or 2 with 0.175V.
Also, there can be worlds of difference when running in such circuits, so it is all noted about Schottky's. Relates well to crystal radios, with this article being a good read, discussing various germaniums that the tester tried:
http://baec.tripod.com/articles/crystal.htm

We've got snow and it's 38F where the workbench is, so I aint there lol
Next up, is to be EZ Spin type single coils around the rotor, along with the main run and trigger coils. The single large coil as pickup isn't really performing for charging, in comparison to single coils. Perhaps it's the increased depth vs magnet field distance. I also want to try the ferrite behind single coils.
Then a remote rotor and to series connect the output with the rotor pickup coils. I'm looking for 1.4V by any means that the motor can provide. The amperage ought to be >12uA from such means, time will tell.
And, to get some scoping done of waveforms and of changes that result when testing. Every placement and result has being eyeballed up to now, which needs to be refined.

Oh, no reason in particular.  Just happened to notice one day
that there were some 'possibilities' with re-arrangement of
the letters...

Yep, diodes of the same type can have peculiarities;  some are
definitely better than others.  Reminds me of my days aboard
ship as an Electronics Technician Striker.  I used to spend a lot
of time 'tuning' our Air Search Radar (AN/SPS-6C) and discovered
how to find the really 'hot' mixer diodes.  With a really good diode
the range of the old radar could be extended out to over 250 miles
for any aircraft that were flying high enough.

I miss those good old days!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-PCS-GERMANIUM-DIODE-1N34A-DO-35-1N34-IN34A-/160997908412

http://nl.farnell.com/microsemi/1n34a/diode-standard-0-05a-65v-do-204aa/dp/2368695

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1N34A%20BK/1N34A%20BK-ND/5037171

http://www.circuitspecialists.com/1n34a.html

http://www.angelfire.com/electronic2/index1/In34a.html

etc.

Maybe the Chinese ones are fake... but at 7 cents a piece it might be worth trying to find out.

I have an original cardboard box with 50 of these.....

Great for crystal radio sets  O0

Thanks for posting that article, it made me dig out my diode stash and do some testing.

I have a few genuine point-contact 1n34 or 1n34a and 1n60, and they measure 0.249 - 0.270 Fv on my diode checker. I found one that measures 0.247, it is marked "12101 3CT". Another has no numbers but has black, gold, red and green color bands and measures 0.257 Vf.

For comparison, a 1n5711 Schottky measures 0.372 Vf and a 1n4148 measures 0.686 Vf, and a 1n4004 rectifier gives 0.600 Vf.

I have some marked 1n270 gold-bonded Ge point-contacts pulled from old TV chassis, they measure 0.252-0.258.

But a 1n5817 Schottky measures 0.181 !!  Testing four others from that batch: 0.178 -0.182 Vf.  A 1n5819 gives 0.220.
Retesting a 1n270 gives 0.256, same as before.

I'm going to try one of those 5817s in my crystal set right away!

Meter is El Cheepo XL830L with smoothjaw gator clips as probes for good contact.

Quote from: Slider2732 on 2015.02.16, 23:50:22
Thanks :)
I missed why you changed your name btw, or should say, anagram'd it.

There are still some germaniums around, but I do recognise their retreating into rarity. In fact, from a bag of 50 OA90's a year or so back, I keep looking for any old projects to remove them and reuse. 0.196V is the average meter tested forward voltage and there were 1 or 2 with 0.175V.
Also, there can be worlds of difference when running in such circuits, so it is all noted about Schottky's. Relates well to crystal radios, with this article being a good read, discussing various germaniums that the tester tried:
http://baec.tripod.com/articles/crystal.htm

We've got snow and it's 38F where the workbench is, so I aint there lol
Next up, is to be EZ Spin type single coils around the rotor, along with the main run and trigger coils. The single large coil as pickup isn't really performing for charging, in comparison to single coils. Perhaps it's the increased depth vs magnet field distance. I also want to try the ferrite behind single coils.
Then a remote rotor and to series connect the output with the rotor pickup coils. I'm looking for 1.4V by any means that the motor can provide. The amperage ought to be >12uA from such means, time will tell.
And, to get some scoping done of waveforms and of changes that result when testing. Every placement and result has being eyeballed up to now, which needs to be refined.

Well, the Schottky doesn't work in my Crystal set.  :-[

It still picks up signal, but no modulation except for some random noise source that is happening, I think the neighbor is warming up his truck. With the original 1n34 or the galena crystal I get good strong modulation from the religious music station as usual. This is using my Slinky antenna and no real ground, and the LED is flickering dimly. But not with the Schottky.

Quote from: TinselKoala on 2015.02.17, 13:19:45
Well, the Schottky doesn't work in my Crystal set.  :-[

Unless the Schottky is specifically rated for RF the higher possible reverse current will load the tank causing lower Q and sensitivity. Even the ones rated for RF have a bit of a tendency for a drop in junction capacitance as the signal increases. This will be seen as the circuit de-tuning itself on strong signals.

In short, only certain Schottky diodes are useful as a detector in a crystal set.

Yes, what you've said is very true WaveWatcher.

The classic Crystal Detector device made from
Galena or Pyrite with a Catwhisker is the original
form of the Schottky Barrier.  It is the point
contact which enables it to work so well at Radio
Frequencies.

Finding the mass produced Schottky Diode which
is point contact and sufficiently sensitive may take
some searching and testing.

There was a great deal of variation in the old
Microwave Mixer Diodes and for every dozen there
may be one or two which were really 'hot.'  Testing
the diodes with an Ohmmeter set for a high resistance
reading was very helpful in sorting them out.  The
AN/PSM-4 series was the meter of choice in the old
days.

Thanks for those links TK :)
I do know that my own OA90's were about that Chinese price and, in fact, i'll order some more at the beginning of the month.
Anyone know where old projects go to hide ? lol it's maddening how if given a year, about 40 of an original 50 can't be found !

Laughed heartily at the religious radio station line. Yep, same here, they have some stunning broadcasting gear it seems and bleed through right over the top of anything else quite readily. Well, a direct connection to up above must help.
Saying that, those stations do force some skills learning with wavetraps and such.
There's a couple of 500,000 Watt flamethrowers from the Eastern states that I can get loud and clear here in OK, on a Mystery coiled crystal set. Typically Chicago for North and Louisiana for South, on good nights. I really must get back into it and am delighted to read the info from Wavewatcher too.  
Am very glad that you guys share the radio hobby.
If I may indulge - being from the UK, i'd heard of Art Bell and his radio show, but had never heard Coast to Coast live. Moving to the USA I decided to build my own radio that would pick up the iconic Georgio Moroder 'Midnight Express' theme tune. That first time I tuned in, heard the music and then the much preferred George Knapp as host has sat with me...yep, must get back into crystal sets !  
It's a pretty good use for George Noory too, for him to power a pulse motor lol
 
Oh, finally, for those who don't mind free powering a non crystal set for AM. The TA7642 is wholeheartedly recommended.
http://www.oddwires.com/content/TA7642.pdf
You can use a crystal set coil with them. Whole homemade radios can fit in a slim type matchbox, with a calculator solar panel on top.

I love old stuff being old, especially crystal radio's because they were the basis of T.H.moray's work who was the master of this trade bar none. However the problem is abstract, if we build a bigger antenna the resistance rises thus we gain but we also lose. We also have issues with our detector and the voltage drop across it concerning selectivity as well as sensitivity. I mean it is a miracle the damn thing works at all when we think about it.

So what was Moray doing that we are not?, if you guy's knew I think you would shake your head and maybe a face palm or two. Part of my solution was understanding I was doing everything wrong, I was trying to increase sensitivity by first biasing my detector theshold to near zero. That is I added a parallel circuit to bias my detector within obscene levels of it's theshold ie. voltage drop increasing it's sensitivity. Next I tried zero theshold mosfets with a very low RDS On, low gate voltage which was prebiased but again there is no getting around the fact we cannot get what is not already present. I learned sensitivity is not power but Moray was talking about power, he was talking about 20k watts from a 80 foot wire antenna with a six foot ground rod. I mean the guy was light years ahead of his time as was this man.

https://vimeo.com/31399217


AC

I'd no idea about the Maple syrup side to Cook's story, thanks for the video :)
Will have a look at 119,825, interesting Patent to explore.
The flying machine has been rescued and restored I hope ?

Didn't Moray dope the diodes with uranium or some such ?

Well this is odd. I wonder how lenz would treat it. http://youtu.be/a6L7BSu8iE8 May have an application in your motor.
Robert Murray smith has just replicated

Quote from: JimBoot on 2015.02.18, 09:33:54
Well this is odd. I wonder how lenz would treat it. http://youtu.be/a6L7BSu8iE8 May have an application in your motor.
Robert Murray smith has just replicated

So have I. Unfortunately I also included a couple of control experiments along with my "replication". The video is being processed now and will be uploaded in an hour or so. I'll post a link when it's ready.

Noble 3d Printers LLC is located in Las Vegas, Nevada. It would be nice if we could get someone in the Southern Hemisphere at around the same latitude, but S instead of N, to do the same experiment with the same kind of sewing thread. (Do the manufacturers twist thread in the opposite direction "down under"?) Oh well, just use Chinese thread. Does the magnet stack spin in the opposite direction in Australia?

Robert Murry Smith's replication used wax thread so as there is no unwinding of the thread.

He also stated it increased speed wth time, he is in the south of England

regards

mike 8)

P.S. arn't those HD mags cross magnetised?

Quote from: Centraflow on 2015.02.18, 16:30:54
Robert Murry Smith's replication used wax thread so as there is no unwinding of the thread.

Doesn't necessarily follow. Some kinds of waxed thread, like dental floss, may not be twisted fibers, other kinds may be twisted, and the wax isn't going to prevent unwinding of the twist. Also, it depends on how you take it off the spool. You can put a twist in previously untwisted thread by spooling it off the end of the spool rather than letting the spool roll as you take it off the side. Wax or fiber lay isn't going to prevent that kind of twist from affecting the experiment.

Quote
He also stated it increased speed wth time, he is in the south of England

So it must be spinning quite fast by now. Right?    ;)
Certainly if the hypothesis about the Earth's rotation being the cause of the spin is correct, it might be stronger at higher latitudes. I am at about 29 degrees N latitude.
Do we know anyone in Australia who can repeat the experiment to see if it spins clockwise instead of CCW?

Tinman, are you out there somewhere?

Quote
regards

mike 8)

P.S. arn't those HD mags cross magnetised?

I can't find my green magnet viewing film at the moment, but I can tell that they do have a strange magnetization pattern. Some people have said they have 2 N and 2 S poles each. They are certainly super strong, that's for sure.
I'll try scanning one with my Hall sensor scanner after a while, maybe I can learn something about the magnetization pattern that way.

 ;D  it's just taken off for outer space :D

Of course it gets to the point where the windup of the cotton slows it down and then to a stop and unwinds. I suppose the proof of the pudding is to leave it like that and see if it eventually stops C.C but there again, thinking about that it will eventually have an equilibrium between magnet power and windup, and then it would stop :D

fun and games keeps us young ;D

regards

Mike 8)

                                  Top                         N                S
                                                                ____________

                                  Bottom                     S                N


So the other is in reverse to make them stick and hold the cotton.

I was right about equilibrium O0

But also it seems to be right that it does move by magnetism as the equilibrium is right, with mine anyway.

regards

Mike 8)

Sorry folks but I feel the need to put my two-cents worth in on this magnet spinning on a string, since I first heard of it in the mid-late 90's and tried it.

The voice-coil HD magnets are quadrapole, at least the later ones.

Long edge view:

NORTH      |        SOUTH
-----------------------------------
SOUTH      |        NORTH

I had one spinning quite well back then, until I found it wouldn't work unless several electrical devices were turned ON in the room and nearby rooms. The more current being drawn the better. The closer to the center of the room the better.

My guess was forcing two of these magnets together (repelling) created a powerful and tightly polarized radial field between them. That field would then make the magnets act like a compass placed inside an empty motor stator.

I couldn't believe the arrangement would just spin for that length from the string untwisting so I had to disprove my thoughts on possible effects from the Earth's mag field. I did.

Disappointing, at first but I didn't have to waste more time on it.

If one can prove the effect is related to the Earth's field, I'm anxious to see my analysis nullified.

Edit>> BTW, it worked just as well using a good quality fishing lure swivel.

Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2015.02.18, 17:40:21
Sorry folks but I feel the need to put my two-cents worth in on this magnet spinning on a string, since I first heard of it in the mid-late 90's and tried it.

The voice-coil HD magnets are quadrapole, at least the later ones.

Long edge view:

NORTH      |        SOUTH
-----------------------------------
SOUTH      |        NORTH

I had one spinning quite well back then, until I found it wouldn't work unless several electrical devices were turned ON in the room and nearby rooms. The more current being drawn the better. The closer to the center of the room the better.

My guess was forcing two of these magnets together (repelling) created a powerful and tightly polarized radial field between them. That field would then make the magnets act like a compass placed inside an empty motor stator.

I couldn't believe the arrangement would just spin for that length from the string untwisting so I had to disprove my thoughts on possible effects from the Earth's mag field. I did.

Disappointing, at first but I didn't have to waste more time on it.

If one can prove the effect is related to the Earth's field, I'm anxious to see my analysis nullified.

Edit>> BTW, it worked just as well using a good quality fishing lure swivel.

It works outside, mountainside to be right, I also thought of the electric field and placed it outside

regards

Mike 8)

Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2015.02.18, 17:40:21
Sorry folks but I feel the need to put my two-cents worth in on this magnet spinning on a string, since I first heard of it in the mid-late 90's and tried it.

The voice-coil HD magnets are quadrapole, at least the later ones.

Long edge view:

NORTH      |        SOUTH
-----------------------------------
SOUTH      |        NORTH

I had one spinning quite well back then, until I found it wouldn't work unless several electrical devices were turned ON in the room and nearby rooms. The more current being drawn the better. The closer to the center of the room the better.

My guess was forcing two of these magnets together (repelling) created a powerful and tightly polarized radial field between them. That field would then make the magnets act like a compass placed inside an empty motor stator.

I couldn't believe the arrangement would just spin for that length from the string untwisting so I had to disprove my thoughts on possible effects from the Earth's mag field. I did.

Disappointing, at first but I didn't have to waste more time on it.

If one can prove the effect is related to the Earth's field, I'm anxious to see my analysis nullified.

Edit>> BTW, it worked just as well using a good quality fishing lure swivel.

That's interesting, especially the working with the swivel. That means, for you, the rotating force must be fairly strong to overcome the friction in the swivel. I thought it might be due to the fields from house wiring too...

But Centraflow gets it to work outside.... so ??

Anyhow, here's my video. My results seem to indicate that it's the twist in the thread that does it. But perhaps it stops because the forces from a wound-up twist in the thread and the "mystery" spinning force cancel and it comes to rest. I'll have to see if I can arrange a nice low-friction bearing, maybe using the bearing set from the HDD I took apart for the magnets. It would be neat to see it keep on spinning, with the fishing line not being twisted as it goes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehva-GfWdXA

Nope. Using the hard drive's arm bearing as the top pivot, and the 10 lb test monofilament fishing line, the thing still just does the normal torsion pendulum thing, a few turns in one direction and then reversing for a few turns, back and forth until it damps out,  and it can't overcome the friction in the bearing to keep going in one direction (if it even wants to do that.) I'm finding it a little hard to imagine that even a "good" fishing swivel would have less friction than this bearing, but maybe.

:'(

ETA: Now I've tried it with an even better bearing, cleaned out with MEK and blown out with compressed air, so that it _definitely_ will turn with only a few twists of the fishing line. Still no joy... no continuous rotation, no bias to turn CCW, just an ordinary torsion pendulum with a slight bias to orient at right angles to the Earth's local N-S line. If I give it a good hard starting spin, it turns the bearing and thus relieves the twist in the line, so it comes to a stop fairly quickly since no twist is stored in the line due to the bearing spinning.

>:( :-[

This actually fully relates to the MMG motor.
Guess where the magnets came from for the rotor !!!  :D

There are normally 2 thicknesses of these 'bowel' magnets in HDD's and 2 of them per drive. One type is much thicker than the other.
I used a thin type for the rotor. The magnet is released from its metal housing with a sharp tap of a flatblade screwdriver and hammer. Then, placed between pliers, crushed to the right dimensions of magnet size needed ( x4 for a 4 magnet rotor).
Weirdly, for magnets, they can take that bang with the hammer and then the crushing with pliers with no magnetic detriment.
They don't like sticking to a soldering iron though, lol, releasing their magnetic equivalent of magic smoke in under a minute.

I have a couple of drives left that were intended to be spares, but are only 4.3Gb and such. Will set about dismembering them and try this spinning malarky out.
It should be 100% a case of the string unwinding.
Also, in one of Ed's videos, he has a white ball with his name and the date, spinning above a Levitron 'World stage'. It seems to spin fast and then slow within each revolution as it goes....has to be from a mechanical input to result in a faster spin after 12 minutes ? (waving a hand left and right, or from above, with a magnet held in it).
if not, we need to find a semi-levitated way of testing without string.

Btw, this made me smile, because of the weird anti-clockwise spin that a rotor seemed to do on its own a while ago. It's one of my Bench posts. Seemed to spin when I had my hand above it holding a magnet as still as could be and should, 100% be involuntary muscle movements. But, it would rotate at the same speed and in the same direction each time tried.
This one: http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2758.0

Well mine is at dead stop, sooooooooooo  I put my hand under the magnet and lifted straight upwards and guess what!!  the cotton wound itself up, the magnetic force and the windup were in equilibrium as I thought, and that is why it stopped.

So thinking about this a little more, I think it is like the movement of the hand syndrome with magnetic rotors that we have all seen, but here it is the magnetic earth and the invisible to the eye movement of the magnets in a pendulum manner. Eventually as I have stated before, windup force to magnetic force become equal and it stops. The magnetic force is very weak just as in a compass, these magnets in this config: are a 360 degree NSNSNSNSNS and a small side movement will change from attraction to repulsion with the earths magnetic field ;)

regards

Mike 8)

If the cotton winds itself back up again, could a device be made that uses the effect ?
Sort of, that the magnet spins up to a good velocity, imparts charge to a coil and by the end of the run, imparts that energy to flip a relay on a weak spring. The relay moves a pin to disengage the cotton for it to coil back up. The spring brings the relay closed again, engages the pin and off the magnet spins again haha

Erm, well, maybe huh :)

I don't think that the thread winding itself up after the magnet comes to rest and you unload it is actually showing what it seems to be showing. The thread is made of individual small fibers that are themselves twisted, so really you have two or even more layers of "twist" in there. It's a subtle problem. I think that the only way to be sure is to use something that has no twist to begin with, like monofilament fishing line or maybe even very fine copper magnet wire. The finest I've got on hand that is unused is #33, and I haven't tried it yet.
I can report completely negative results using the 10lb test line and a really good bearing at the top. It would be good to use finer line and a better bearing system but for the moment I can't do any better than the last test with the sensitive bearing.

Second test with better bearing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfuRyLxRPDI

:-[ :'(

A pretty good bearing setup is to hot-glue the string to the head of a dry-wall screw then suspend the whole thing with a magnet holding the point of the screw.
You'll need to play with weight and screw-magnet holding strength but it has worked for other experiments I've done.

I haven't seen the same swivels in years. They were advertized as jeweled-bearing. There was no jewel  :(

...but it does have a bearing on the outcome :)
Good idea with the screw and perhaps a ball magnet.

Levitated fully would seem a good route, not easy but would remove nearly all friction thoughts.
Have got a World Stage here, but it's broken. It was a gift and hasn't ever worked. Will take a look at it.

Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2015.02.18, 21:31:26
A pretty good bearing setup is to hot-glue the string to the head of a dry-wall screw then suspend the whole thing with a magnet holding the point of the screw.
You'll need to play with weight and screw-magnet holding strength but it has worked for other experiments I've done.

I haven't seen the same swivels in years. They were advertized as jeweled-bearing. There was no jewel  :(

That's a good idea, and I'll try to do something later this evening. Also, a YT commenter suggested another good control experiment: suspend a non-magnet weight
by the thread and see if it rotates. In his case, he reported that it rotated identically to the suspended magnets.

Quote from: TinselKoala on 2015.02.18, 15:34:48
So have I. Unfortunately I also included a couple of control experiments along with my "replication". The video is being processed now and will be uploaded in an hour or so. I'll post a link when it's ready.

Noble 3d Printers LLC is located in Las Vegas, Nevada. It would be nice if we could get someone in the Southern Hemisphere at around the same latitude, but S instead of N, to do the same experiment with the same kind of sewing thread. (Do the manufacturers twist thread in the opposite direction "down under"?) Oh well, just use Chinese thread. Does the magnet stack spin in the opposite direction in Australia?

Nice test Tk. I'll try tomorrow night. I'm further south than brad. Are you on a ground floor?

Thanks, yes, ground floor, about 29.5 degrees N latitude, and about 162 meters above sea level.  Las Vegas NV is further north at about 36 degrees N latitude.

I haven't yet tried the magnetic pivot bearing with an untwisted fiber like a thin wire or a bit of light monofilament fishing line.

It would also be interesting to try the non-magnet control test, with thread, that has been suggested.

@Centraflow

QuoteSo thinking about this a little more, I think it is like the movement of the hand syndrome with magnetic rotors that we have all seen, but here it is the magnetic earth and the invisible to the eye movement of the magnets in a pendulum manner.

This may be the case, on another note I often use two pieces of bent coat hanger wire to dowse for buried lines. It still bothers me as an Engineer that I'm very near 100% accurate at this and it has never steered me wrong. I keep telling myself this should not work and there is no reasonable explanation I can grasp that comes to mind... but it always works.

The alter ego to everyone saying these effects are just our body/mind unconsciously reacting to external forces obviously did not think to consider why our body does this and more important how?. It would seem to me we (our mind and body) already know something we are not willing to accept... very strange.

Edit:
I had a strange thought a few months ago, now if dowsing works and I know as a fact it does then my mind/body is interacting with the external environment in ways I myself cannot perceive. If this is true then using modern electronics I might be able to amplify these minute changes by let's say 10,000 times using my mind/body as an integral part of the detector. Now one has to wonder what does our subconscious know that we do not?, for instance:
Could we read through a patent or newspaper and determine what is true and what is not, what is important?
Could we read through the stocks and just pick the winners?
Could we track down objects or people as easy as we follow a compass?

I do not know but damn I would sure like to find out because as I said there is something very strange going on here.

AC

Quote from: Allcanadian on 2015.02.19, 15:32:42
@Centraflow
This may be the case, on another note I often use two pieces of bent coat hanger wire to dowse for buried lines. It still bothers me as an Engineer that I'm very near 100% accurate at this and it has never steered me wrong. I keep telling myself this should not work and there is no reasonable explanation I can grasp that comes to mind... but it always works.

The alter ego to everyone saying these effects are just our body/mind unconsciously reacting to external forces obviously did not think to consider why our body does this and more important how?. It would seem to me we (our mind and body) already know something we are not willing to accept... very strange.

AC

Love the post, a coat hanger :D ;D

regards

Mike 8)

Hey it's not so odd, the spinning magnets can be approached with an open mind in a similar way, or any device with possible OU considerations. Never so closed that a crowbar is needed to explore a 'maybe'. The coathangers are a prime example :)
If they don't work, they can always be snipped up to form coil core material !

Myself, I used to have what I called the 'finding stone' lol. It was a small stone that came from a stone circle in Wales, UK.
I'd lose something and grab the finding stone. it fitted in the hand well and i'd simply ask it where the object was. Then i'd walk to exactly where it would be ! Daft huh, yet worked time after time. I had no problem with it, couldn't find the things I was looking for anyway so why not. As such punchlines go, it was to have been brought to the USA but I couldn't find it  C.C  

To my understanding, nurture, nature and faith are included. You've seen it work, so it'll work again. The mechanism might not be known and if reputation or publishing findings aren't factors, sometimes who cares how it works.
Also, and something seemingly important, the event has never to be for personal financial or ego gain. It won't work.

Dear All.

I started my working career with the Wrexham and East Denbighshire Water Company as a fully indentured electrical apprentice. The companies policy was that all apprentices must have at least a small working knowledge of all the other departments functions.

Whilst under the wing of the distribution dep't we were shown how to use Dowsing rods in order to find the run of AC ( Asbestos Concrete ) mains and Terracotta pipes. Very unsophisticated, they consisted of two fence wire rods, one 3 inches longer than the other and bent at right angles to fit the hands. This was back in the days before the now sophisticated pipe finders were in vogue and of course could not be used to follow non metallic pipes !!

The department also had a single " special " dowsing rod set that carried a number of different material samples one could pull via springs to the handle, in essence guaranteeing you would be looking for say a Lead service and not a Copper one !!

Needless to say I became a " Dab hand " at this, discovering that if I thought about what I wanted to find under the ground, I would indeed find it ! I was an avid collector of old Bottles back then and used the thought, Old whole bottles to great advantage.

As for coat hangers ? Yes, that works just as well!!  ;)

Cheers Grum.

PS. Sorry, I got really caught up there. I just realised this is really off topic !!

@Slider

QuoteTo my understanding, nurture, nature and faith are included. You've seen it work, so it'll work again. The mechanism might not be known and if reputation or publishing findings aren't factors, sometimes who cares how it works.
Also, and something seemingly important, the event has never to be for personal financial or ego gain. It won't work.

My coat hangers seemed to work just fine for personal gain because I was too cheap to hire a line locator to find the irrigation lines scattered about my property, it nailed them down to within 8" I figure. I have come to believe the universe does not care about money, it is what it is and does what it does regardless of what we may believe.

If anyone here has not tried the coat hanger trick I suggest they do because it is uncanny how well it works. I just bend the wire into an "L" shape with the long end about a foot long and the short end about six inches which is held lightly in each hand. The long ends will cross each other when a line is below and you might want to look up as well because they cross under power lines every time.  Believe me when I say I know how this sounds but seeing is believing.

@Grumage
You posted while I was so this is an edit. Awesome story and it is kind of bizarre that something which works so well is basically unknown to the general public.


AC

Hey I don't mind off topic :)
Especially when it's cold in the house and motor developments are on pause. It should be mid 40F's over the next few days though, so i'll be moving forward, with a heater at the side.

Have tried the dowsing myself..but..with 2 tubes from old BIC pens around the handle parts. It still worked and that in itself is weird, because it means our own muscles in the hands can't be doing the affecting.  
They will still cross, or at least move inwards markedly.
Quite fascinating how an official water company would not only practice dowsing, but teach people how to do it.

Well i didn't think this video loaded up to youtube,as it was a rush job just before we left for vacation. It came back as an error occurred and was unable to complete upload-and when i get back from vacation,i see it is uploaded??. Anyway.i see Mark commented on it,so thought i would post the link here. Now,who can work out the energy needed to change the direction of the mass(magnet) and accelerate it in another direction lol. No hope-i know,but a fun little project anyway-->which i will be looking into further.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYJHDSR25zo

Sorry my wife reorganized our shared workshop. Still looking for my hdd mags !

@TinMan - Of interest would be whether the duty cycle could be halved or quartered and still the magnet would swing about like that ?
Am thinking of a simple reed switch method inside the coil. As soon as the coil fires, the reed stops the coil again. Moving the reed away or nearer may allow for longer or shorter pulsing ?
Perhaps it can tie in with AC's double reed method of pulse shortening, where the difference between 2 reeds in series forms the pulse length.
It would be handy if the MagnaBounce could follow a path, perhaps some version of a Star of David type of traced pattern. As it did so, the magnet would fly past aircore pickup coils. Angling the magnets should allow for direction control ?
Quite the size of magnet looks like it can be used on that, for quite the amount of imparted pickup energy !

Strange goings on today...I grabbed this 56F comparatively warm day to get some more motor testing in.

One build that had bugged me, has twin rotors on one bathroom tile. The remote rotor had always given trouble syncing up.
So some time was spent re-weighting and changing pieces of magnets (the 8mmx1mm neo's ordered still haven't arrived).
That motor is reed switch based, rather than electronic.

My 0.1F supercaps don't ever run a motor for more than an hour, when charged to 1.1V. That's been the baseline figure, something to try to get past.
This motor has now done that.
Off it went, the remote rotor sync'd up to a multiple of the powered rotor speed and they stayed in sync with each other...finally.
Midway through, my wife came back from shopping and while putting things away/chatting, the remote rotor lost sync. It seems that it pulled the other rotor to a stop. When a reed switch motor stops, a magnet will sit right on the reed, drawn by the metals. As such, the reed remains closed and draws down the voltage, acting as a short.
Only 0.362V was left on the cap when it was checked. Well, i started it up again, just wondering if it would start with the other rotor being at a stop. The other rotor began to spin and turn at exactly the same speed and in the same direction !
All has just ended now, some 2hrs 25minutes after beginning.
The 2 rotors stayed running at the same speed and in the same direction for nearly half an hour !

Here are the run figures, Time then Voltage
02.55 1.129V
03.00 1.093V
03.20 0.998V
03.25 0.976V
03.47 0.902V
03.55 0.883V - 246mV over 1hr
04.15 0.836V
04.25 0.813V
-- sync trouble at some point here
04.49 0.362V
04.55 0.349V
05.05 0.332V
05.15 0.313V

The run was part video documented, it shows the initial running and odd same direction re-sync.
Now to adjust the remote rotors coils to be better spaced and closer to the rotor.
Also, to add a 3rd rotor, to the right side of the other 2 and feed back in whatever that one can generate.

Ah-Hah! You have hit upon that feature of the old "whipmag" or OCMPMM that was called "Anti-gearwise" or AGW rotation! The rotating stator magnets of that device were also rotating in the same direction as the main rotor.

It's as though the rotors were connected by a belt, and so turning in the same direction, rather than connected by gear meshes, which would turn them in opposite directions. In the OCMPMM it appeared that the stators were actually driving the rotor. But of course that wasn't really the case, as shown by some high-speed photography.

(Don't let this distract you. The AGW rotation driving does appear to be unusually efficient, though.)

That's pretty cool, hadn't heard of it before.
What got me, was that I didn't touch the right side rotor, it just started going on its own like that. Then at the end, was acting a bit like a flywheel of its own, both pulling the other around if 1 looked like stalling.
Both rotors are all North out btw, just to clarify that aspect.

This one is to be tried with the double reeds idea.
I ran out of time today, as was having issues with the 3rd rotor. For no reason except that the universe is rewriting rules when we get close (lol) it would act like a seizing engine in a car. Difficult to crank around to start it and then pulling up after a few revolutions. The fix was the decoupling trick of putting a ceramic cap in series on the output and that freed up the rotation again, giving good capacitor charging of several mV to the 0.1F with a good hand spin.
The 3 of them will sit the cap at the same voltage when they do sync. It was at 1.040V for a clear 5 minutes, but then they slowly dropped out of sync (universe rewriting again eh). Timing runs were started several times when they seemed stable, but every time the things would desync. All is off from previous experiences, because even recently i've shown 3 or 4 rotors spinning happily away in sync. It must change when they get hooked up to return energy back.
That seizing aspect is a head scratcher, the 1st remote rotor didn't do it, why would a 2nd ?
If one rotor is sped up by hand to only twice its normal 1:1 sync rotation speed, the cap will add a couple of mV.
Getting a rotor to spin at double though with 3 rotors is elusive and frustrating.  
 
???

Update:
Tried the double reeds on this one, with it having just 1x 500ohm coil depth rather than 4 deep.
An idea, was to put 1 reed at 180 degrees to the other. That would perhaps limit or even mostly remove the drag toward the reed metals (not the rotation drag). Unfortunately I wasn't able to get any firing. One of those things that needs very patient micrometer by micrometer adjustment I think. Or, the magnets widths are too small, that could easily be the case.

Next then, to bring back the MMG motor itself. I've always been impressed with the speed of rotation, given by Lidmotor's drive circuit.
Resistance was turned up on the Base of the transistor until it no longer fired, with 120K working well on the CFL powering method. If it saves 1uA, it saves 1uA.
The change will be to add pickup coils around the rotor.
I remember that Lasersaber showed his EZ Spin, with 2 driving coils and the rest were pickups. It functioned well as a sort of motor Joule Thief. 6 coils will be added, as 2 banks of 3.
The other, reed powered motor, will have its 8 coils in use as remote pickup coils for this new design.
That'll give 1 powered, 1 return to the circuit, 14 pickup coils.
A sweet sixteen :)

Slider:

QuoteThat'll give 1 powered, 1 return to the circuit, 14 pickup coils.
A sweet sixteen!

Very cool - and a lot of work, but much appreciated to see how you are progressing.

Thanks Steve. I wish all this could be faster, but am waiting for better than 28F at the workbench. Sunday onwards is looking much better though.


The 8mm x 1mm decent neo's have arrived :)
A quick test has shown that they work fine on a converted rotor, it not needing any rebalancing on replacing the cut HDD magnet pieces.
There's a bit of a trick that the size of these allows too. I use water bottle tops as the rotor formers and inside is a plastic ridge. The magnets fit inside that ridge, such that another clips to the outside readily. That means that distancing can be adjusted if angles aren't perfect and saves a lot of gluing. The method also reduces the chance of flyoffs, when the rotor is spinning at high speed.

Seen in action below, with the rest of the stack in the foreground: