OverUnity Research

Increase of electrical energy by means of absorption of Zero - Energy.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2469.0;attach=13892

OK i dug out a coil i had for some time, not ideal as Arie uses a 16.5cm diameter winding 33cm long, but though i would give it a try

I setup as per his diagram below with one exception i placed 2 off 10 Ohm resistors at the common point of the caps and used the centre point as my earth point with each end of each resistor feeding cap item 5 & 6, i used a fixed cap for item 5 which was 33pf and used my variable cap box for Item 6, my sig gen positive was connected to the coil near the Item 7 end and the other bifilar coil was open circuited that end also as per the diagram.

I used 4 scope probes all connected to the same earth point my 2 resistors were commoned at.
Yellow was across the sig gen resistor
Cyan was across the variable cap end of the other resistor.
Purple was connected to point A on the diagram or after the variable cap.
Blue was connected to the sig gen +

I then looked for the maximun increase in current across my 10 Ohm resistors to find the resonant frequency of the coil which turned out to be 439KHz.

First thing that stood out was i could not adjust for a phase difference of 180 Degrees as asked for in the patent, although i did find other interesting frequency's i could do this at much higher frequency's than the resonant frequency.
The other thing that can be noted is that the current in the open coil is greater than the current in my sig gen coil.

Any ideas how i should set this up so i can start looking for excess energy.

Peter

Hi Matt
I will bear than in mind but first i want to try the patent out, and firstly try to work out the best way to do this.

I don't understand why i have a greater current in the open coil than i do in the driven coil.  :D
Looks like i should have scoped the LCR voltage across the open coil as well.

PS it looks like his output is across points A & B not tried scoping that yet, maybe i need a load resistance across these 2 points.
Any help setting to measure input ^ output power would be much appreciated.

Hi Peter,

very interesting, and lots of info on your scope   :D
(1.5V pp input (blue), 700V pp (purple) acros A to ground??)

I agree, you should load the output, perhaps like the input (50 ohm).
Also i don't think you should work at the resonance frequency of this coil (439KHz).
DeGeus talks about 8.5MHz, the higher the better.

Yes, measure across A and B  (remove the other probes) for the output.

439Khz is about 630m wavelength, don't think you have that much wire, so you are not having 1 wavelength.

His 33cm length at 16.5cm diameter with 1mm magnet wire equals 76m wire / coil, to have minimum of 2 wavelengths (fig. 1b) you should run at 38.5m wavelength = 7.8Mhz



Regards Itsu

Hi Itsu
Thanks, makes good sense, i just re read the patent and he uses capacitors around 1pf  :o

Looking forward to more tests tomorrow, maybe i should build the device he states in the patent, a gain of 10% if it can be proven would be quiet an achievement.

EDIT yeah i see the 700V also, i need to check all is correct, but this should have been across the variable cap of the open coil, something strange going on here.

The scope is great, but in hindsight i should have bought a separate sig gen, the function of the dual built in sig gen is limited, does not sweep and is not easy to dial in a desired frequency.

I don't quite understand this part:

QuoteI setup as per his diagram below with one exception i placed 2 off 10 Ohm resistors at the common point of the caps and used the centre point as my earth point with each end of each resistor feeding cap item 5 & 6

Could you make a drawing of the _exact_ circuit and probe connections you are using, please?

The setup described in Drawing 3b in the pdf document is probably the easiest setup to start experimenting with. But the capacitor values... half a picoFarad?? This is rather implausible for actual commercial off-the-shelf parts, it is even less than the well-known "gimmick" capacitors used by radio builders made from simply twisting a couple of insulated wires together for 4 or 5 twists. It's probably less than the interwinding capacitance of a nice bifilar cylinder coil of the dimensions given in the pdf.  

As far as getting to a 180 degree phase shift between the signal input to the driven coil, and the other coil's response, this will certainly require a higher frequency and an off-resonance condition. It's too bad that the signal source in the Rigol isn't easily swept. A good sweep function generator capable of 10 MHz and a 30 volt p-p output is a boon for any lab.... I saw one on Ebay last month (Interstate F74) for a hundred dollars! But I couldn't afford it myself, and the person I recommended it to didn't buy it, and now it's gone of course.

Here's an illustration of sweeping the primary (L1) of the "EMJ Partner coils" to find the 180 degree phase shift frequency in the other two coils (L2 and L3):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GOMqlamVHk

When this patent was first posted in the original DeGeus thread, http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2460.0

I took a good hard look at it and also thought the 1/2 pF capacitors to be odd, way below "gimmic" attainability. I thought it might be a translation error of some type and possibly the values needed to be much higher.

I did some testing back then using variable capacitors, but did not find anything of interest occurring. I'm glad a new thread specific to this patent has been started.

There are many oddities in some of the DeGeus patents, maybe we can sort this one out.

Regards, ION

Thanks for the comments guys  O0

TK not yet sure i will stick with the 2 resistors, once i work out the best way to measure Pin & Pout i will draw a diagram up  O0

Looks like you can indeed buy off the shelf 0.5pf capacitors and also 0.5pf variable caps, i think really his point is to have as small as possible capacitance to obtain the highest possible resonant frequency.

Easier to make one really as TK said a bit of twisted wire, i will have a play, i am really tempted to build the coil he describes which means ordering some 1mm enamelled wire.

Or order some parallel bonded wire (multifilar):

http://www.mwswire.com/multifilar.html

I double checked the original Dutch patent, but its all that it says, see screenshot below.

"De condensator-capaciteiten zijn minimaal zo'n ½ picoFarad"   meaning:

"The capacitor-capacitances are at minimum some ½ picoFarad"  not much to interpret wrongly here.


Regards Itsu

Quote from: Itsu on 2015.03.30, 17:21:13
Or order some parallel bonded wire (multifilar):

http://www.mwswire.com/multifilar.html

I double checked the original Dutch patent, but its all that it says, see screenshot below.

"De condensator-capaciteiten zijn minimaal zo'n ½ picoFarad"   meaning:

"The capacitor-capacitances are at minimum some ½ picoFarad"  not much to interpret wrongly here.


Regards Itsu

Well, he does say 1/2 picofarad minimum, which means you can go up from that, but not to load the self resonance too much as Peter said.

The parallel bonded wires will be stable and fairly precise when cut to the right length for tuning.

Thanks Itsu, ION  O0

Did not get much advancement tonight, found it impossible to get 180 degree phase shift in the voltage across the 2 capacitors, but last night i could adjust the capacitance to get 180 degree out of phase current.

Just re read the patent again and it looks like it is indeed the current i need 180 degrees out of phase.

QuoteIf there is a 180 °  phase difference ( equal capacities ) between the electron currents

So i will need to include 2 resistors, 1 for each cap to monitor current phase as i did yesterday.

I am looking at bonded bifilar wire but seem to be only able to get up to 0.45mm gauge, have sent an email to a UK company.

I have decided to build the correct coil.

Good news, i got a reply from the UK company regarding bonded bifilar wire, they do indeed have 1mm but there was a problem with the manufacture, every now and then it has a single twist, faulty spooling machine at the time of manufacture, he said he can do me 500g at a very good price  O0

Good news Peter,

how many meters will that be (500g), and does he ship to The Netherlands?

I got a quote from MWS Wire last year for 100ft dual AWG 16 (1.3mm dia) for $1.82/ft   =  $182   exclusive $60 shipping costs.

(100 FT MWS MULTIFILAR P/N B2162211(155) $1.82 FT)

Guess we need 80m = 240ft or so


Regards Itsu

Seems rather expensive. This might be a cheaper alternative:

http://www.powerwerx.com/wire-cable/red-black-zip-cord.html

Or just wind it yourself with two spools of magnet wire side-by-side. With patience, it shouldn't take all that long to wind a close-spaced bifilar cylinder with two strands of magnet wire.

Not expensive, dead cheap £12 + VAT + postage, I've ordered 2 off 500g spools, will get permission from him to put his phone number up, he has 2 off 10KG spools of the stuff, but it has a twist in the wire which was caused by bad manufacture, but can be straightened out apparently.
It's a UK company but looks like they do ship overseas.
They do enamelled iron wire as well.

AND also Kanthall tape  ^-^

OK had permission to publish details of the wire supplier just in case anyone wants it while it's cheap.

www.wires.co.uk

Contacts name is Dan on 01371 238013

The 1mm & 0.8mm Bonded bifilar wire is not on the website, but if you ring and ask for Dan he will give anyone a good price, not sure about the 0.8mm but the 1mm was £12 + VAT + P&P for a 500g spool

OK the wire arrived, very nice wire and quiet stiff to wind which is not surprising being dual 1mm bifilar.
Each strand has a different colour.

I wound this coil for the first test the only tube i had was 8cm diameter and i wound 16cm long, i used a grid dip meter and it dips at 20.7MHz, 72 Turns.

The wind is not perfect it was quiet hard to get the wire to lay side by side without gaps as can be seen in the picture, as i was winding i was turning every now and then to take out the slight twist in the manufacture error, i am tempted now to try winding it onto another former as this may make it easier to straighten and lay closer side by side, although for this coil Arie states it is important the bifilar wires are equally close together and as they are bonded they are indeed so maybe the occasional space between turns does not matter.

Been playing with the above coil

I hooked an avramenko plug to it to monitor output voltages, just a hunch

Quote from the patent

Quote( a) Theory.
The fast oscillation of an electro-magnetic field in a conductor for "free
electrons" produces longitudinal wave compaction / dilutions in the Aether,

The coil seems to resonate at quiet a low frequency of 1.12MHz and am unable to get the desired 180 degree shift until i go way above this main lower resonant point.

Here's a circuit of my setup

I am using a 30pf cap for C1 and a variable cap for C2
With the attached waveform all adjusted at series resonance with all phases in alignment.
Not run the numbers for the inout power yet but i was getting 1.738V across my avramenko output which has a 510R load resistor.

I really think the correct sized coil needs building now as in the patent.

Pout= V^2/R
Pout = 1.738^2/510 = 5.9mW

Interestingly the current in the Avramenko leg of the unconnected bifilar has a larger current flowing than the driven bifilar infact it's 195% but as i did not monitor the voltage Grrr it's meaningless  :P

To calculate Pin is it LCRvrms * (Rvrms/R) or LCvrms * (Rvrms/R) in the series resonant circuit, in the Smudge tests i used LCRvrms but the thing i don't understand is why i would include the voltage across the Resistor as this surely respresents current not a true representation of voltage???

Although when i go back to the Smudge device and change my Pin calculations and use LCvrms instead of LCRvrms then i start getting COP 24  :D

I went back tonight to measure the LCRvrms of the open side of the bifilar see Blue trace and it appears there is a much higher frequency sitting on the sine. ???

As can be seen in this shot yellow and cyan are in phase and represent the 2 currents in each bifilar but the voltages are slightly out of phase with respect to each other yet the driven bifilar voltage was also in phase with the currents.

There was no Avremenko plug connected for this shot.

Hi Peter,

so mixed results he.

I have my dual bonded wire ordered, so hopefully it will arrive soon.
Would it be possible to find the Characteristic impedance and the velocity factor of this dual wire with a fast pulse like in "time domain measurements"?
That is what i would like to do/know when having my wire / coil set up.
That way i would be able to choose a frequency (not at resonance) at which there are 2 full wavelengths on this stretch (i estimate mine will be about 80m long) of wire.
With a former diameter of 16cm (PVC) and a length of 1 meter, i want to wind this stretch of wire with an inbetween turn spacing of 1mm so it will be close to Aries setup which seems to use also 2 wavelength (at about 8.5MHz).

Regards Itsu

Hi Kees
That's good news with the wire  O0
Not sure about mixed results, more like am i doing the maths right, if i am then we have COP > 1 which should mean i am doing the maths wrong  :-[

So regarding my post 17

My Current Iin is R1vrms/10 Ohm so Iin = 0.184 / 10 = 18.4mA

Then my Pin is Iin / LCRvrms Pin = 18.4mA / 1.73 = 0.01064W or 10.64mW

COORECTION Pin is Iin * LCRvrms =31.83mW

Power in Avremenko Plug = Vrms^2/R or Pav = 1.738^2/510 = 5.9mW

Power in R1 = Vr1rms^2/R1 = 0.184^2/10 Pr1=3.39mW
Power in R2= Vr2rms^2/R2 = 0.360^2/10 Pr2=12.96mW

Wow what did i get wrong.

Pout= 5.9 + 3.39 + 12.96 = 22.25mW

COP = Pout/Pin = 2.097


EDIT
OK i think i was wrong to include Pr1 in my Pout total
So my new Pout= 5.9 + 12.06 = 17.96mW

COP=17.96 / 10.64 = 1.68

OK, Peter,

what about:  

QuoteThen my Pin is Iin / LCRvrms Pin = 18.4mA / 1.73 = 0.01064W or 10.64mW

Should that not be:   "Then my Pin is Iin * LCRvrms Pin = 18.4mA * 1.73 = 0.0318W or 31.8mW"?

Anyway,  not sure that we can use this avremenko plug here, guess the two bifilar windings will influence each other presenting wrong data.
Also the output from the patent is inbetween the coils and capacitors,  not where you have attached the avremenko plug.

I notice that Arie is using the input of the FG as Vin, not its output.

Regards Itsu

Dam. well spotted.
Oh well i knew i did something wrong, been rushing too much, not enough time at the moment to concentrate fully.

Hi Peter,

a classical case of lack of free time and to much free energy stress   :P

Take it easy.


Regards Itsu

Received my spool of 1.5Kg dual bonded 1mm magnet wire.

The cat likes it already, but i need to straighten it out first before i can start winding it onto the 16cm diameter former (PVC).

One turn measures 51cm length, so lets see how many turns will be possible.

Regards Itsu

Hi Itsu

Nice  O0, what was the charge for postage to Netherlands, the great thing with the tube winding is that we can re use the wire after testing for other projects.

Looking forward to you getting some time in on it, i got a larger cardboard tube now, but not 16cm diameter a little less and will try winding what i have left on that to see how long i can get it.

Cheers
Peter

Peter,

the shipping costs was 10 pounds, so not bad at all.

Itsu

Thats really good then, so we now have a great source of all types of wire including iron  O0

It was a nightmare to straighten out this spool, the "occasional twist" turned out to be one almost every turn on the spool!

The thick (1mm) wires are hard to manipulate to go straight, and tend to split the bonding causing 2 separate wires over several inches here and there.

Anyway, i managed to wind 175 turns with about 4mm in between spacing on a 1m long former (16cm diameter).

I have some length left from the spool which i can use for some other projects.

As the circumference of the 16cm diameter former is 51cm, i have 8925cm (175*51) = 89m 25cm length of dual bonded 1mm wire, see pictures.

Next i will use my PICO-PULSER to measure the reflection time of the pulse to calculate the velocity factor of this coil / transmission line.
Also the char. impedance will be measured.

Regards Itsu

That's very nice, Itsu!

I guess I'm too late with my advice:
The way to straighten solid wire is to _stretch_ it slightly. Clamp one end securely, roll out the length you want to straighten, and "pull" on it ( wrap free end around a piece of wood for a good grip) until it gets a slight stretch in it. This will straighten out bends and minor kinks. It will also make it easy to "untwist" the twists.
And the way to make a coil with evenly-spaced turns is to wrap the straightened wire, and some spacer material like thicker wire, cord or rope, at the same time, in parallel. Then remove the spacer cord once the coil is wound.

Thanks TK,

The dual bonded wire is kind of brittle, so not much force can be applied before it splits.
I did use an extra wire parallel to get the 4mm spacing, which works ok.



Further measurements:

178 turns,  50.7cm each so a total length of 90m 24cm.
Open end shows MOhms with the fluke, so no shorts
LCR meter shows 20nF capacitance!  no readable inductance because of the open end
Time domain measurements shows a velocity factor of 0,64 (64%) of this dual bonded magnet wire.
Char. impedance turns out to be 30 Ohm.

For these last 2 calculations, please check the video for any math errors or wrongly applied concepts.

Screenshot shows the difference between the pico-pulse and the (open end) reflection (1.07us).

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP2aUDFmARo&feature=youtu.be


Regards Itsu

I created a 2 * 11pF capacitor to be used as in the diagram Fig.2



Questions:

1) Above i calculated the velocity factor (0.64) for this dual bonded wire.
But it turns out that the FG is NOT across the both coil ends, but across 1 coil (see diagram Fig.2).
Does the velocity factor (0.64) still holds for a single wire of that dual bonded wire pair??



2) Looking at the diagram we see Fig. 2 as the schematic, and Fig. 3b as the physical layout.
Arie talks about 180° phase difference between the 2 coils, in fact in his patent he says:

"This invention concerns the against each other oscillating of two electromagnetic fields"
and:
"If there is a 180° phase difference (equal capacitance's) between the electron-flows, then we are dealing with
nodes and anti-nodes which are moving along the wire pairs"

But my measurements up till now (see video) do not show this phase difference, in fact the signals across the both wires are "in phase".

In the video i have the FG ground lead at the junction of the 2 capacitors and probing with the scope (2 probes)
from this ground point to both points A and B

Also (not in the video) when probing in stead of points A and B the end of the coils (near points 7 and 8 ) i still have signals "in phase"

Why do i not see/have this 180° phase difference between the 2 coils??

Video here:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq4HN4_Ld6Y&feature=youtu.be

The screenshot is from the situation in the video, input 4.77MHz sine wave 5vpp from the FG,
yellow across the cap A  (to middle ground)
Blue across the cap B    (to middle ground)
red both above signals added  

There is a 56 Ohm resistor as load across points A and B  (Vuit = Vout)


Thanks,   regards Itsu

Quote from: Itsu on 2015.04.23, 12:30:10
I created a 2 * 11pF capacitor to be used as in the diagram Fig.2


Questions:

[clip]

But my measurements up till now (see video) do not show this phase difference, in fact the signals across the both wires are "in phase".

In the video i have the FG ground lead at the junction of the 2 capacitors and probing with the scope (2 probes)
from this ground point to both points A and B

Also (not in the video) when probing in stead of points A and B the end of the coils (near points 7 and 8 ) i still have signals "in phase"

Why do i not see/have this 180° phase difference between the 2 coils??

[clip]

Thanks,   regards Itsu

Hi Itsu,

Well, I have a thought regarding this particular DeGeus patent.  It is interesting to note that the schematic seems to show counterwound windings but the physical layouts all show bifilar windings.  IMO, you will only find a 180 degree phase shift between the windings if they are are counterwound with equal capacitance's at the output.  I'm probably wrong about this but it is a possibility!

Regards,
partzman

Hi partzman,

yes, that was also my idea, thanks for confirming this.

Looks like the patent is not (with reason??) clear on this.      I could try to swap lets say the upper coil leads and see what will happen.
Another idea is that he really uses 2 FG's, each (in opposite phase) feeding a separate coil.

Thanks,  regards Itsu

Hi Itsu,

I think you have the function generator connected wrong.  IMO the connection to the junction between the two capacitors is not the ground connection, but is the live connection.  Then you have the possibility for the two points A and B to have different phases.  Also the 56 ohms across A and B should be removed as it is not the load for the function generator and effectively ties the two voltages together.

Smudge

Hi Smudge,

thanks,  i did reverse the FG leads earlier without any change.
But i did it again and now also removing the 56 Ohm load resistor (i know its not the FG load,  but it was meant as the output load).
But again probing points A and B with the 2 probes (ground reference still the FG black lead now attached to lets say point 7) gives the 2 signals in phase, see screenshot.

Perhaps i need to isolate the FG from ground, and measure the points A and B using the middle capacitor point as probe ground reference?


Thanks,  regards Itsu

Hi Itsu,

I did a quick setup using two vertical wound coils that are easy to position either as bifilar or counterwound.  The scope shot below shows the coils positioned as counterwound with two 221pfd caps arbitrarily chosen and positioned as per the DeGeus patent. I placed the ground of the generator at the junction of these caps with the hot lead connected to one end of one of the coils. The other end of the remaining coil is left open and connected to CH3 (cyan).  CH1 (yel) is the output of the generator. As you can see, there is 180 degrees of phase shift.  The frequency here is 4MHz and even though there are current measurements shown, I made no attempt at any other measurements of this setup.

Hope this is of some help!

partzman

Nice work Itsu  O0
If you were to send 2 spaced small pulses that were spaced to the time period of the SRF of the bifilar i wonder if the impedance would reflect the point that for an instance the coil is operating at resonance, so first pulse the impedance would be 27 Ohm but zero for the time period of the 2nd pulse.

As i stated earlier Arie said it is the current that is 180 Degrees out of phase not the voltage, i have managed to get 180 degrees phase change in the bifilar setup but only at higher frequencies and only by measuring the current phase in each leg of the bifilar.

Also worth noting is that Arie is operating his coil at 2 x the resonant Frequency.

Quote1) Above i calculated the velocity factor (0.64) for this dual bonded wire.
But it turns out that the FG is NOT across the both coil ends, but across 1 coil (see diagram Fig.2).
Does the velocity factor (0.64) still holds for a single wire of that dual bonded wire pair??

You can measure each coil of the bifilar independently, this is great if the wire is not bonded because each could be measured with your velocity device and trimmed so both match.

Quote from: partzman on 2015.04.23, 16:02:05
Hi Itsu,

I did a quick setup using two vertical wound coils that are easy to position either as bifilar or counterwound.  The scope shot below shows the coils positioned as counterwound with two 221pfd caps arbitrarily chosen and positioned as per the DeGeus patent. I placed the ground of the generator at the junction of these caps with the hot lead connected to one end of one of the coils. The other end of the remaining coil is left open and connected to CH3 (cyan).  CH1 (yel) is the output of the generator. As you can see, there is 180 degrees of phase shift.  The frequency here is 4MHz and even though there are current measurements shown, I made no attempt at any other measurements of this setup.

Hope this is of some help!

partzman

Hi Partzman,

ok,  very good,  i swapped the Fig. 2 upper coil, and now at certain points (the 2 wavelength point at 4.4MHz, the 3 wavelength point at 6.2MHz etc.)  i do see a sudden phase shift to almost 180°, see screenshot.
I also made a short video showing these different points phase shifts, but.........
i don't think we should be using counterwound coils, allthough i agree the Fig. 2 schematic is pointing to that.

The video to be seen here:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1mNroJnVwI&feature=youtu.be

Any other solutions on creating a 180° voltage phase shift using the normally bifilar wound coils?


Peter,  i do not understand your remark about 2 spaced small pulses,   i dont think it will influence the char. impedance of any transmission line.

Could you please point out where Arie was mentioning the 180° phase shift between current and voltage?  I don't think i can be that much ever (max 90°)
The below diagram Fig. 1b clearly shows 2 voltages being 180° out of phase (Vmax) and also in fig. 1e and Fig. 1d (for square waves)  

Finally, for pulsing a transmission line (like the dual bonded wire is), you need 2 wires, so i cannot "measure each coil of the bifilar independently,this is great if the wire is not bonded because each could be measured with your velocity device and trimmed so both match"

Thanks all,   regards Itsu

Itsu
Please see my post 10 on first page there is a quote from the patent
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2897.msg47533#msg47533

QuoteIf there is a 180 °  phase difference ( equal capacities ) between the electron currents

It is the 2 bifilar currents not voltages that there is a 180 degree phase shift.

Ok Peter,

i also had repeated that statement in my post #31 above  :)  :

"This invention concerns the against each other oscillating of two electromagnetic fields"
and:
"If there is a 180° phase difference (equal capacitance's) between the electron-flows, then we are dealing with
nodes and anti-nodes which are moving along the wire pairs"


Yes,  that could indicate that the currents should be 180° out of phase, but why then the pictures in the patent showing Vmax in the both coils also 180° out of phase?

I measured (together with the voltages again) the current with my current probe in first the red bifilar coil, then in the green bifilar coil (see the green trace), which shows they are both in phase too  :D

Regards Itsu

Hi Itsu

Yes it's not very clear, is the magnetic field in phase with the current or a resulting phase with regard to voltage & current??

Peter,

good point, i could try to measure the magnetic field with my Hall sensor probe, will try that tomorrow.

Regards Itsu

All,

Here i show the usage of a little gadget i use for years measuring the RF on coils etc.
It clearly detects the presents of 1, 2 or 3 wavelengths on my coil, which could be very usefull.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCeJSbDxVmc&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu

Quote from: Itsu on 2015.04.22, 22:12:26
For these last 2 calculations, please check the video for any math errors or wrongly applied concepts.

Concepts are fine but the latter Δt marker is not placed correctly.  The time delta should be shorter than 1.07μs when measured to the beginning of the reflection.
Also, I would use a 47Ω pot to measure the characteristic impedance more precisely (... or at least 100Ω)

Quote from: Itsu on 2015.04.23, 21:03:56
Here i show the usage of a little gadget i use for years measuring the RF on coils etc.
It clearly detects the presents of 1, 2 or 3 wavelengths on my coil, which could be very usefull.

Yes, the beauty of standing waves.
Take a look at Tinsel's avatar which depicts a string of neon bulbs showing standing waves in real time and all at once.

Hi Itsu
That's a handy gadget, Don Smith used neon's to do the same but he was using higher voltages.

So i wonder if we can get 180 degree current phase then maybe at the fundamental resonant frequency you maybe able to detect the 2 out of phase nodes, being 180 degree out of phase then each would be a quarter of each end of the coil, if your meter had a centre zero maybe it would detect the negative node peak as well as the positive peak node.

Itsu and Peterae,

Here is the result of the same pair of vertical coils as in the previous counterwound test but now positioned as bifilar.  I also replaced the caps with two 22pfd with the connections remaining the same.  At 6.14Mhz for this arrangement, the voltages between windings did shift to nearly a perfect 180 degrees out of phase and the currents (not shown) also were 180 degrees out of phase but not equal in amplitude. Somewhat above and below this frequency, the voltage phase transitioned to 0 degrees differential.

The inductance of each coil is 16uh with 15 turns each and the inter-winding capacitance is ~40pfd.

The one thing DeGeus points out is that when running at optimum with his setup which I'm sure you are well aware of, the voltage across each line will be ~2x the generator.

EDIT: Note that a quick resonance calc with the coil specs puts the fo at 6.291Mhz.

Regards,
partzman

Quote from: Peterae on 2015.04.23, 21:26:47
Hi Itsu
That's a handy gadget

Let's call it "AVU meter" - from Avramenko VU meter

Well that's interesting Partzman, not enough time right now to get the details from the patent but Arie is using a 16cm diameter former wound to a length of 2 x diameter or 32cm, so he has a large amount of turns and in the patent he runs at a frequency higher than yours i think.
Good to see you are getting the phase shift.

Hi verpies
yes i thought that was an Avramenko plug on the meter, very clever, i will try making one when i get a chance.
Thanks

Ok,  my idea was to stay away from any resonance point of these coils as i think it is not the purpose of this invention to run at resonance.

Anyway, i just measured the both coils and the data for the both coils/wires (one is green colored, the other red) is:
(using single loop wire around the middle of the coils 5Vpp sine wave input from the FG)

Gr inductance 828.3uH    1st/highest resonance  823KHz @ 90Vpp, 2th resonance at 2.277MHz @ 77Vpp
Rd inductance 828.2uH    1st/highest resonance 818KHz @ 87Vpp, 2th resonance at 2.294MHz @ 77Vpp

Reconnecting like Fig.2 (so now including the 2 caps) i see corresponding peaks at 739KHz @150Vpp, 2.901MHz @52Vpp, 4.832MHz @15Vpp etc.

But always the both voltage signals are in phase.

Will try with higher value capacitors.

Regards Itsu

Quote from: verpies on 2015.04.23, 21:18:20
Concepts are fine but the latter Δt marker is not placed correctly.  The time delta should be shorter than 1.07μs when measured to the beginning of the reflection.

Hi verpies, good to see you again.

With "the beginning of the reflection" you mean like in the screenshot below? (996ns would mean an electrical wavelength of 150.5m and a velocity factor of 0.60)

QuoteAlso, I would use a 47Ω pot to measure the characteristic impedance more precisely (... or at least 100Ω)

Ok,  i used a 50 Ohm multi-turn potmeter so the char. impedance came out at 28.8 Ohm.

Regards Itsu

Hi Itsu,

I am reminded of the inner construction of HP wide-bandwidth baluns that I used to use.  These use the fact that a pair of twisted magnet wires create a transmission line that is close to 50 ohms.  The balun used a twisted line pair wound as a toroidal coil on a ferrite ring core.  One end of the twisted pair was an unbalanced input while the other end was the balanced output.  The image shows the construction.  As I recall these had a bandwidth covering 10 to 500MHz.

You will note that your coil using paired wires has exactly this form except your coil is solenoidal and not toroidal.  You will also note that the balanced output yields anti-phase voltages on each terminal relative to ground, which is what you are trying to achieve.  You will also note that the only difference as regards the connections is that your open ended winding is connected to ground in this balun.  This does not use resonance, but there might be some peculiarities at resonance if your function generator and load impedances differ from the line impedance.  Hope this helps.

Smudge

All,

I ran an interesting set of tests using the coil arrangement I posted previously but rather than clutter up this thread, I've posted the results on my "Magneto Electric Induction" bench in reply #53.

Regards,
partzman

Quote from: Smudge on 2015.04.24, 14:44:14
Hi Itsu,

I am reminded of the inner construction of HP wide-bandwidth baluns that I used to use.  These use the fact that a pair of twisted magnet wires create a transmission line that is close to 50 ohms.  The balun used a twisted line pair wound as a toroidal coil on a ferrite ring core.  One end of the twisted pair was an unbalanced input while the other end was the balanced output.  The image shows the construction.  As I recall these had a bandwidth covering 10 to 500MHz.

You will note that your coil using paired wires has exactly this form except your coil is solenoidal and not toroidal.  You will also note that the balanced output yields anti-phase voltages on each terminal relative to ground, which is what you are trying to achieve.  You will also note that the only difference as regards the connections is that your open ended winding is connected to ground in this balun.  This does not use resonance, but there might be some peculiarities at resonance if your function generator and load impedances differ from the line impedance.  Hope this helps.

Smudge

Hi Smudge,

it sure looks similar, however, as can be seen in this toroid version of Aries patent, the unbalanced input (FG) comes in in the middle section of the capacitor and one of the coils far end which is different.
The balanced side (Vuit = Vout) is the same.

Somehow i cannot get any 180° shift between the voltages (or currents) like shown by partzman.


All,

I tried some higher value of capacitors (2x air variable 30-350pF) but the higher the capacitance (350pF), the lower the output peaks on the known frequencies (4.7Mhs, 6.2Mhz etc.)
Also no shift was seen or induced by manipulating the one or both variable capacitors.


Regards itsu

Scanning through the patent as linked by peter in his post #1 of this thread:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2469.0;attach=13892

I notice the following about the capacitors used (slightly re-translated from Dutch)

"7. A Method and Apparatus, as in (6), wherein said capacitors have the same capacitance (and thus a 180° phase difference occurs)."
"10. A Method and Equipment, as in (6), wherein the capacitance values of said capacitors are below 10 picofarads."

This "below 10 pF" was also mentioned earlier in the patent when Arie was talking about "The capacitor values are at minimum about half a picofarad. "

This seems to be confirmed by my using higher air variable capacitors which with increasing capacitance show lower amplitudes.

So i have cut my wire capacitor (11pF) in half, and it now measures 6pF at both sides.
But allthough now indeed the amplitudes of the signals are higher, no phase shift is noticed in the lower (below 10MHz) range.
Only when using an scope isolated from ground i start to see a phase shift up till 180° upwards from 23MHz, but the amplitude is way below the supplied 5Vpp, see picture.

Not sure what to think about this,  could it be that the ground loops from FG and scopes are preventing the correct displaying of the signals?
Why only phase shifts above a certain (high) frequency?

Regards Itsu

because when operating above the SRF of the coil it becomes capacitive not inductive or a negative inductor.

If the frequency can be found where the current is 180 deg then it might be worth us building a standalone transistor sinewave oscillator to pump up the amplitude

Hmmm,  in post #50 i showed that the both coils have a Self Resonance Frequency of ± 820 KHz, but only at above 23MHz i see this phase shift occur  (only with an isolated scope).
I will try even less capacitance to see if this phase shift frequency decreases.


Found a strange statement in the above linked patent, its both in the original Dutch patent as in the translated one:

"A-B is the input AC voltage; C-D is the output"       A typo??


Regards Itsu

Hi Itsu,

Been thinking about this circuit and I think the junction of the two capacitors is at the hot end of the function generator.  You have to use a frequency that is resonant with the L and one of the C's so that the generator is driving a series resonant circuit.  Then the input voltage from the generator is low as its is driving a low resistance but the voltage across that L is high.  Because the other wire does not make a series resonant circuit that high voltage in the driven wire travels down the transmission line to be reflected from the open end and comes back at twice the voltage if the line is a multiple of half wavelengths.  So you get twice that high voltage across the two lines at points A and B, and from the zero reference that appears as voltages that are 180 degrees out of phase.  Getting the line and the LC to both resonate together is the key and you may have to adjust the L by putting ferrite inside it.

Smudge

Hi Smudge,   great post, it makes a lot of sense, some things that are unclear with me are:

# the "zero reference" point.  With that you mean the junction of the 2 capacitors which is the hot end of the FG?
# also you say: "Because the other wire does not make a series resonant circuit.....etc."  
 Here you point to the other wire/coil with capacitor, Right?
 But why does it not make a series resonant circuit? It is an LC, right?  It does not make a LC circuit in relation to the FG is that what you mean?
# As the both wires/coils are on the same former, putting ferrite inside it does change the both wires/coils resonance points, but at the same time.
 So no adjustment between the both coils will occur.
 

As can be seen in my post #50 above i wrote:

Gr inductance 828.3uH    1st/highest resonance 823KHz @ 90Vpp, 2th resonance at 2.277MHz @ 77Vpp
Rd inductance 828.2uH    1st/highest resonance 818KHz @ 87Vpp, 2th resonance at 2.294MHz @ 77Vpp

As the capacitor was cut to be 6pF each, we have a series LC of 828uH and 6pF, see diagram.

This resonance calculator: http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm   calculates the resonance to be at 2.258 MegaHertz which is very close to the above measured 2th resonance of 2.277Mhz
(not sure what the first resonance point of 823Khz is (3th subharmonic?), but this 2.277 is the full wavelength resonance point).

So at 2.277MHz we are at series full wave (is two ½ wavelengths) resonance having a very low (close to 0) impedance.


To confirm this theory, i would like to "catch" the both 180° out of phase signals with my scope, but need to know this "zero reference" point and if known, then i need to measure it without disrupting it with the FG/scope ground leads.


Thanks,  regards itsu

Quote from: Itsu on 2015.04.25, 19:49:16
Hi Smudge,   great post, it makes a lot of sense, some things that are unclear with me are:

# the "zero reference" point.  With that you mean the junction of the 2 capacitors which is the hot end of the FG?

No, it is the ground point you show in your diagram smudge1.

Quote
# also you say: "Because the other wire does not make a series resonant circuit.....etc."  
 Here you point to the other wire/coil with capacitor, Right?
 But why does it not make a series resonant circuit? It is an LC, right?  It does not make a LC circuit in relation to the FG is that what you mean?

Yes.  It can't be a series resonant circuit because the other end is open so you can't pass current through the L.

Quote
# As the both wires/coils are on the same former, putting ferrite inside it does change the both wires/coils resonance points, but at the same time.
 So no adjustment between the both coils will occur.

It is not adjustment between the two coils that matters.  You have to realize that there are two distinct resonances.  One is the simple LC series resonance.  This has no connection with the time delay down the transmission line.  The other resonance is that transmission line when it is a multiple of a half wavelength.  So you have two different resonant frequencies that must coincide.  You therefore need to measure both (which you have effectively done, you quote the L and C values and you have done a TDR measurement on the transmission line).  That should tell you what value capacitor you need to sync those two together and I only suggested ferrite as a fine adjustment assuming you would have a fixed value capacitor.

The output from A and B is at high voltage and high impedance so you must use high value load resistors.  An with such low value capacitors you can't hang 10pF scope probes there, that will screw things up.  You need potential dividers as the load so you can connect scope probes at a lower impedance point, see my modification of your diagram.

Quote
As can be seen in my post #50 above i wrote:

Gr inductance 828.3uH    1st/highest resonance 823KHz @ 90Vpp, 2th resonance at 2.277MHz @ 77Vpp
Rd inductance 828.2uH    1st/highest resonance 818KHz @ 87Vpp, 2th resonance at 2.294MHz @ 77Vpp

As the capacitor was cut to be 6pF each, we have a series LC of 828uH and 6pF, see diagram.

This resonance calculator: http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm   calculates the resonance to be at 2.258 MegaHertz which is very close to the above measured 2th resonance of 2.277Mhz
(not sure what the first resonance point of 823Khz is (3th subharmonic?), but this 2.277 is the full wavelength resonance point).

So at 2.277MHz we are at series full wave (is two ½ wavelengths) resonance having a very low (close to 0) impedance.

That 2.277MHz is the LC resonance and has nothing to do with the wavelength down the transmission line.  You must adjust the frequency (by changing capacitor values) so that it coincides with the transmission line resonance.  Why don't you try driving the transmission line itself from just one end to find its resonant points, that would help in getting you to the right point.

Quote
To confirm this theory, i would like to "catch" the both 180° out of phase signals with my scope, but need to know this "zero reference" point and if known, then i need to measure it without disrupting it with the FG/scope ground leads.

Answered above.

Regards
Smudge

Very nice Smudge,  that clears up many things.

As usual for me, this simple circuit has much more to it then i realized.

I have to treat those 2 distinct resonances in a different way ("simple LC series resonance" and "transmission line when it is a multiple of a half wavelength").

Thanks,   regards Itsu

OK, I have just looked back at your earlier posts.  Your transmission line is 90.24m long.  You measured 20nF.  That is a distributed capacitance of 222pF/m.  You also measured its characteristic impedance Z as 30 ohms.  Now since Z=sqrt(L/C) where the L and C are the distributed values we can get the L as 0.2uH/m.  The time delay per metre t=sqrt(LC) comes out at 6.66nS which for the total line length of 90.24m is a one way delay of 0.61uS.  Two way delay is 1.22uS which is close to the 1.07uS you measured.  Thus the first resonant point for the transmission line calculates as 832KHz.  That explains your mystery first resonance that you measured at 823KHz.  So you have to get your LC resonance to coincide with multiples of 823KHz which you are close to with your 6pF capacitors but not quite there.  Keep trying.

Smudge

Smudge, that is clear all the way to the 823KHz  :(

Still puzzled about that as it seems to me having no relation to either my measured 2-way reflection pulse of 1.07us or your calculated 2-way delay of 1.22us:

full wavelength 140.1m (from the 1.07us reflection pulse) which is a frequency of 2.141MHz
full wavelength 122.8m (from the 1.22us reflection pulse) which is a frequency of 2.442MHz

What is this 823KHz resonance point?

Thanks,  Itsu 

Quote from: Itsu on 2015.04.26, 10:50:48
Smudge, that is clear all the way to the 823KHz  :(

Still puzzled about that as it seems to me having no relation to either my measured 2-way reflection pulse of 1.07us or your calculated 2-way delay of 1.22us:

full wavelength 140.1m (from the 1.07us reflection pulse) which is a frequency of 2.141MHz
full wavelength 122.8m (from the 1.22us reflection pulse) which is a frequency of 2.442MHz

What is this 823KHz resonance point?

Thanks,  Itsu  

Don't know how you calculated those wavelengths.  The 1.07us reflection represents a waveform of period 1.07uS for 1 cycle and that is 935KHz.  The 1.22us is 1 cycle period of 820KHz.  When you are dealing with times you don't need to go into wavelengths.

But just to get this right the calculated time delay per metre was 6.66nS which is a velocity of 1.5x10⁸m/s.  At that velocity the wavelength of an 820KHz waveform is 183m and that is twice the length of your line or near enough.  Methinks you have got in a muddle with your calculations.

Edit.  And how can an increased time delay (going from 1.07 to 1.22uS) result in a reduced length (from 140.1 down to 122.8 )?  Something wrong in the formula used here.

Smudge

Ok,  i screwed up the math from time to wavelength somehow.

But what about my measured 1.07us pulse.  This is the forth and back time of my pulse, so the single route time would be half of it = 0.535us.
So the waveform of period 0.535us for 1 cycle would be 1.869MHz, not 935Khz.          (or do i see a half wave (half cycle) as resonance?).

Regards Itsu

Yes the open ended line is resonant when it is a half wavelength long.  So the one way time is only half a cycle.
Smudge

Let's be clear about this.  The transmission line is resonant when the reflected wave comes back to reach the input in phase with the signal there, hence it adds to the signal and creates twice the voltage.  Thus the resonant line acts like the familiar parallel tuned circuit offering a resonant peak (not a trough although that can be arranged).  To achieve this the two way time has to be exactly one cycle period (for the first resonant peak or integer multiples of that time for other peaks at higher frequency).  That means the one way time is exactly a half cycle, the line is electrically one half wavelength long.

If the half wavelength line were terminated at the far end with a short circuit, the reflected wave would come back in anti-phase and would subtract from the input voltage.  The line would then look like a series resonant circuit yielding a voltage trough.  To get the peak resonance with a shorted line you need a quarter wavelength line or any integer multiple of quarter wavelengths.  Actually a shorted line is better because you can get a definite short there, whereas an open circuit suffers from stray capacitance and the open circuit is not so well defined.

Smudge

QuoteWith an arrangement of the embodiment of Fig . 3b and a cylinder length of the double winding of 33 cm and a winding-diameter of 16,5 cm - windings , wherein wire diameter ( with insulation
included , so called magnet wire ) of 1.1 mm was used, it was in the application of a square-wave
voltage of 21 volts, with a frequency measured at or near 8.5 MHz, a power increase of close to 8%
. ( measurement done with instruments that are accurate to 8.5 MHz ) .
If one has  input voltages at higher frequencies or could have there is therefore the possibility to
generate free electric power , and at any scale level . It is possible by properly choosing the length
of the wires , inductances and capacities with respect to the input frequency with a simple circuit ,
as described above,to bring frequencies at a high level with very low losses

I wonder why he uses such a high frequency for a coil that is 16.5cm diameter and 33cm long, the resonant frequency has to be way lower than 8.5MHz

OK i think i have worked things out to a degree.

There are only 2 things we need to concern ourselves with to get this working.

1 we need as large an amplitude as possible, this is achieved by adjusting wire length, capacitance values.

2 This is the most important thing see quote below from the patent.

QuoteThe zero point energy absorption process does not work if electrons flows move next to each other
in the same direction .

Forget about 1 lets concentrate on 2, so how can we guarantee that our electron flow in adjacent bifilar coils is not the same?
If we can answer that then all we need do is achieve a large drive amplitude efficiently using a transistor square wave generator.

I would have thought that we could do this by driving both coils 180 degrees out of phase, but this may use twice the power so maybe Arie has a more efficient way of doing this by driving only one and having the second open.

How do we monitor the electron flow phase is this our current or voltage.
OK so our electron phase is our voltage phase not current.

Hi Peter,  i agree, point 2 is the first condition we need to match.

Therefor my quest to have this 180° phase shift realized.

The trick to realize this is in the open ended coil, which should present a mirror of the signal on the other coil.
But as Smudge tried to explain, this will only happen under certain specific conditions.
The transmission line coil (open ended one) should match with its length and therefor with its standing waves the series resonance
frequency of the other coil/cap LC.

I have set up a voltage divider of 10Mohm/1Mohm on each A and B point to ground (see Smudge his drawing in post #60) and measure with my probes
across the 1Mohm resistors to ground.
But still the signals are in phase, and i have trimmed my capacitors from 11pf up till 1pF now.
The only effect noticed is that the resonance points frequencies slowly increases, low 1st frequency was 823KHz, now 1200KHz, 2nd was 2770kHz, now 3600Khz.

Regards Itsu

It just occurred to me that if the coils were wired in anti series then our inductance would be small, thus our resonant frequency much higher than at the moment, this would mean that the output indicated on the drawing is actually our input, which you stumbled on the other day in the patent.

Peter,

not sure what you mean by "anti series", do you mean "counterwound" as mentioned by partzman in his post #36?
If so, i did some tests with that config (swapped 1 coil leads) and sure we get 180° phase shifts then.
Not sure i understand your input / output swap statement, could you please draw a diagram?

Regards Itsu

Ok,  i did screw up the math of the time/wavelength calculations as stated in post #30 and to be seen in the video there.
I did ask to check it   ;D

Here a retry.
As can be seen in the screenshot below, the forth and back reflection pulse is 1.07us depending on where the 2th marker is positioned.   
I think it should be in the middle like shown (1.07us), but others mentioned that it should be on the start of the pulse which then would measure 996ns.   
For the time being i keep my 1.07us which i have measured severall times now.  (why does my 3ns wide pulse get smeared out to this ugly 200ns or so reflection pluse?  Capacitance?)

So the 1.07us is the forth and back reflection on my 90.24m (measured) long transmisstion line.
The single length time reflection time then would be 1.07us / 2 =  0.535us.

As the speed of light is 299792458m/s = 299.792458m/us the pulse traveled 299.792458m * 0.535 = 160.38m.
So the electrical length of my transmission line coil is 160.38m

As my transmission line is only 90.24m long, the calculated velocity factor of it is 90.24/160.38 = 0.56.


So we have:

a  physical transmission line length of    90.24m
an electrical transmission line length of 160.38m
a velocity factor of                                 0.56
char. impedance of                                 30 Ohm
capacitance measured                            20nF
Inductance of each coil                          828uH

According to http://www.wavelengthcalculator.com/ a wavelength of 160.38m corresponds with a frequency of 1.870MHz (1 cycle), so half a wavelength resonance would be at  935KHz.

This 935KHz is what i found as my 1st reonance points, but this is creeping up in frequency while trimming my capacitors (823KHz with 11pf, 935KHz with 6pf, and presently 1180KHz or so with about 1pf)

My idea was that this transmissionline frequency (open ended coil) should stay fixed no matter what capacitor value i connect.
What should (and does) change when trimming the cap is the LC resonance of the series LC circuit (not open ended coil)  :D

I made a 1Mohm/10Mohm voltage divider to probe the both A and B outputs as suggested by Smudge,  see diagram.
Works fine, but no phase shifts noticed yet.

Regards Itsu

What do the two output voltages look like?  Is there a difference between their amplitudes?   Is one voltage 3 times the amplitude of the other so that the difference is 2 times.  What I am getting at is that although A and B are in phase, if B is 3 times A then you have exactly what Arie is saying, there is twice the A voltage across the transmission line.  From the transmission line perspective that is like a balanced line relative to ground with positive and negative voltages, whereas in fact it is not relative to ground.  Just a thought.  It's what goes on inside the transmission line that is important.

Smudge

Smudge,

see the screenshot, a video of the setup and connections used is being uploaded right now.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBuyy3VK95I&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu

Quote from: Smudge on 2015.04.27, 14:06:12
What do the two output voltages look like?  Is there a difference between their amplitudes?   Is one voltage 3 times the amplitude of the other so that the difference is 2 times.  What I am getting at is that although A and B are in phase, if B is 3 times A then you have exactly what Arie is saying, there is twice the A voltage across the transmission line.  From the transmission line perspective that is like a balanced line relative to ground with positive and negative voltages, whereas in fact it is not relative to ground.  Just a thought.  It's what goes on inside the transmission line that is important.

Smudge

Smudge,

At first reading of the patent, I thought that a singular output of either phase would be 2x the input but after more study of Fig 1b, it it appears he is referencing the difference between the two 180 degree out-of-phase signals. Each would then each be equal to the input in amplitude but with the 180 degree phase difference.

I also respectively disagree on the generator connections because of what DeGeus says in claim 16.  "16. A Method and Apparatus, as in any of the preceding claims, wherein the power end of the winding, which is not connected to said voltage source, an 'open' direct from-end."  My interpretation of this is that the hot lead of the generator is connected to the coil lead, not the junction of the caps. I realize this is in conflict with his drawings which seem to indicate that the ground connection should go to the coil lead but in my little setup (which maybe should be taken with a grain of salt), it only works with the generator hot connected to the coil.

Regards,
partzman

Quote from: Itsu on 2015.04.27, 09:48:29
why does my 3ns wide pulse get smeared out to this ugly 200ns or so reflection pluse?  Capacitance?)

Because you have multiple reflection points.
Each time your twin wire separated while winding/unwinding, it changed the distance between the conductors and changed the characteristic impedance.
Wherever the characteristic impedance changes, a reflection occurs.  These reflections superimpose and smear your stimulating nanopulse.

You can play with the wire spacing using a toothpick and observe the changes in these microreflections while doing your TDR experiment with nanopulses.

P.S.
You probably realize what happened and why I am almost absent from the forum.

Right, so when having a good quality dual bonded wire we would not have this effect.
I don't think i can manipulate this present dual wire to be more "in line", so will leave it this way.

P.S.
yes, i understand, magical times, i hope all went and is well.

Regards Itsu

After working on the earlier video above, i decided to also scope the input signal from the FG.
It showed that during the resonance peaks, the 2 output signals (yellow and blue) are shifting phase compared to the FG input signal (purple).

There is an almost 180° phase shift across the resonance, with a 85° shift during resonance, see below screenshot

A video showing this can be seen here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzp-bE_Tjok&feature=youtu.be

So we have phase shifts during resonances, but between the input and output signals, not between the output signals.
Looks like the output signals are very tightly coupled somehow.

Regards Itsu

The 85 (almost 90) degree phase shift is to be expected.  Also the tight coupling between the output signals because the two conductors are so tightly coupled.  It is Arie's talk of energy travelling down the transmission line which is of interest since it is there that the interaction with the aether takes place according to his theory.  And it must be possible to send energy down that line and that is what I was concentrating on.  Of course you could connect one wire to earth and drive the other wire to find that line resonance as in the image below.  You lose the voltage magnification available from the LC resonance but this should tell you something about the transmission line used as a resonator.  Looking at your earlier reflected picosecond pulse distortion and amplitude I think you may find this is a poor resonance that is quite broad in frequency response indicating significant losses.  That may give you a clue as to why that line resonance does not appear to influence your results, perhaps the resonances you have seen have all been associated with the LC.

Smudge

Smudge,

Quoteperhaps the resonances you have seen have all been associated with the LC

thats what i was thinking too when the first resonance point was shifting when lowering the capacitance.

But with the above given information, it should be possible to calculate the transmission line resonance, like you did before (820 or 823 KHz.).

A quick look using your above diagram (smudge 1b) does not show any resonance points  :D
Have to go now,  will investigate more later today/evening.

Regards Itsu  

I did some further investigations, and found that after increasing the FG amplitude to 20Vpp i have some responses  (200mV pp range).

These responses are no clear resonance peaks, but more like a dip followed by a slight increase.

I found the following points (in the video they might be somewhat different due to me being close to the coils):

1403KHz
3771KHz
5604KHz
7098KHz
8603KHz
etc.

The use of different capacitors for c1 (10PF in the video, but earlier i used 1.8pF) seems to have no influence on these frequency points.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTfELHmrvOc&feature=youtu.be  

Regards Itsu

t would be interesting to see whether a short at the end of the line works better.  The problem with an open circuit is that the distributed capacitance between the wires that is responsible for the line characteristic doesn't suddenly stop when you reach the end, you get field lines that represent stray capacitance across the end as illustrated below.  That will have a smearing effect on any resonance.  IMO, although a shorted line will also exhibit stray magnetic field lines associated with the shorting wire, they will have much less effect.  I also have the sneaking feeling that the open end can propagate backward electric waves that do not travel inside the line, but rather outside, perhaps between the larger spacing of adjacent turns in your coil.  You may find the shorted line exhibits a better series of resonances associated with multiples of a quarter wavelength.

Smudge

Looking at your video the ground connection for the voltage divider seems to be via the scope.  I would have connected the divider to the grounded end of the coil so as not to have an enormous inductive loop in that ground connection.  Don't know whether that makes a difference.

Smudge

I did short the top leads before, and it did not make any difference in either amplitude or frequency.   Just did it again, but again no change from the open ended circuit.

Also i used earlier a cliplead to connect the 1mOhm ground side to the FG ground without noticing any difference.
I now have that ground side of the 1MOhm resistor soldered to the ground connection, again without any change.

I extended the search for resonance points with these results:


1403KHz
3771KHz
5604KHz
7098KHz
8603KHz
10006 "
11396 "
12746 "
14126 "
15536 "

So we have a difference of about 1400KHz   (1 full wave?).

Regards Itsu

Hey Guys...
       I just saw this thread after researching American electrical patents for an hour or more.   What I saw was similar to what you are working in in the way of transformers in order to increase power output from these transformers.   Really.   I've often wondered how is was that these inventors didn't see some of the overunity aspects that you're tying diligently to achieve.
       If I can find more time during my personal schedule, I'll try and show you what I mean by upload some of the patents I saw.   Time's   short on this computer, so I'll go.

I'll try to get back later.   You can e-mail me, since I try and check my Yahoo! account every day, if I can.

--Lee

Hi the_big_m,

I'm always interested in transformer patents. If you want to trade some around, let me know, I probably have about 100 of interest.
Also interested in your search methods, maybe we can compare notes.

orthofield

Assuming this 1400KHz is the full wave resonance point of the transmission line (which i cannot relate to the measured 1.07us (2-way) pulse),
i tried to match the LC resonance to this same 1400KHz, but unfortunately, i ran out of capacitance.

When using the minimum possible capacitance, being the red FG probe laying close to the both bottom coil contacts (estimated capacitance 1pF) i reach 1303KHz  :( .

The signals (yellow and blue) shown across the 1MOhm resistors are 3Vpp each in phase with each other with an FG input of 20Vpp (purple)

Shortening or lengthening the coil (inductance) would not help as then also the transmission line resonance frequency would move.


Would using a coax cable as coil be of any use?   Like using 100m of RG316 coax, it would fit in almost the same space as the present coil.
We would be able to more accurately pinpoint its transmission line resonance point.


Regards itsu

Quote from: orthofield on 2015.04.29, 18:36:35
"Hi the_big_m,
I'm always interested in transformer patents. If you want to trade some around, let me know, I probably have about 100 of interest."
       Good to hear from you, orthofield.
The transformer patents I'm looking for may also---just guessing?---have diagrams in three dimensions, at the start(first pg. on newer patents) page, that may be conceivably added, or else replace the functioning aspect, of a free energy antenna on a very large scale with the same pattern in the large scale wiring pattern, in the field, as in the original transformer.
       I've seen some interesting examples, so I'll try and give the 'Web address to a few.

"Also interested in your search methods, maybe we can compare notes."
       I have only a Library computer to do research on.   But, I'm about the only patron that does research regularly on patents in this town.  The dedicated computer is usually just sitting there, near the Reference Desk, so In can sit at the computer until my butt hurts on the library chair I sit in, or I get hungry---or need to use the restroom.
       The peculiar software with this computer allows searches by Patent Number,  Author of the Patent, date Filed, date Granted, as well as language in the introduction on the first page, usually.   That the thing I start with.   Here's the address...

http://www.google.com/advanced_patent_search

Okay, then.   Anyone can start with that, depending on the available information one has at the outset.  I may have a number left over from a previous session, or I can specify actual search arguments on the top line in the default "Words" Section.  Words I can use might be...

       "cross wound"  "over unity"  "coil turns"  'high voltage"  "3-dimensional transformer", etc.

Use your imagination---or also---describe language you liked from Patent Titles that you thought were of interest to you in the past.

So, I think you might understand?   That's how I do research, since I'm somewhat  limited in what I'm allowed to do with the software suite I have to use when I sit down at the computer.

Questions? Comments fro yourself or anyone who reads this?
       --Lee

Hi the_big_m,

The transformer patents you mention sound almost like some sort of fractal transformer. The 3 D transformer reminds me of the Meretsky patent, US4210959, "Inductive Device With Orthogonal Windings" but this is certainly not an antenna as such. It does have some unusual properties according to tests. McCreary US2445847 and his other patents are also interesting in this regard. And then there is the famous Wanlass parametric transformer, US3654546 and others.

There are a large group of these cross coil devices and they either were used as a parametric or reactive current control devices, or-- with a movable third coil-- as antenna tickle coils, or variable couplers.

Yes, I used to do a lot of research in the U. of Washington Engineering Library, where I would nail down a computer with my butt and then research until I couldn't stand it any more. If I got up there would inevitably be a student there when I got back. Originally when I started doing patent research in the late 80s the patent database was on nothing but a microfiche reader, so I would go to the library with a list of all the classes I was interested in and scroll through them, stopping to print. I still have a wall of paper from that period.

Now of course most things can be done online. I used Google Advanced Patent, Espacenet Advanced Search, and sometimes the USPTO class search page. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Google Advanced Patent uses an OCR like program to read the patents so a lot of older inventor's names are garbled, and often the program will not give truly all of the patents. Class coverage is also nonexistent before about 1920. USPTO class coverage is perfect but the interface is cludgy. Espacenet covers patents from 80 countries, but only goes back to 1920 in most cases.

Unless I have a certain patent that I'm looking for, I use class searches almost exclusively. For instance, the Daniel McFarland Cook patent was originally found by doing a class search on USPTO of the entire patent class of "inductors" (336), from the start of the patent system in the 1790s-- So I had looked at some half a thousand patents one at a time before running into that one!
It never would have turned up otherwise, since Cook's name is garbled on Google Patent, and the patent doesn't appear with a name or class on Espacenet.

Especially useful are class searches on Espacenet. Espacenet has classes specifically for rotary, solid state, and hydraulic/pneumatic "perpetual motion machines" as well as special classes for all sorts of electrical machines that don't fit into usual categories.  The most important of these classes are H02K53/00, for rotary free energy devices, and H02N11/00 for solid state free energy devices. Between these two categories there are about 20,000 patents that claim overunity, with only about 200 of them ever having been discussed in any forum or book. Go to

http://worldwide.espacenet.com/advancedSearch?locale=en_EP

and plug in H02N11/00 on the IPC line to have some serious fun :-)

orthofield

Hey, orthofield,
       I have to cut short my reply to you for lack of time remaining on this borrowed computer.
I like your referenced Patent 3654546.   So much so, I copied a printout from the library's Internet computer's software suite for a reference.
       Will return later for more discussion in, say, a day or two(?)   I haven't felt well for the last few weeks, but I do the best I can.

--Lee

I rewind my coils today using no space in between the turns like indicated in the patent, see picture.

First measurements show:

capacity 25nF
both coils inductance 1.743mH
Forth and back pulse time 1.01us, so 0.505us single route = 1980.2KHz (1/2 wave resonance point = 909.1KHz).
First LC resonance point with 10pF capacitors found was 880KHz.

Will trim the capacitor down so the LC resonance point matches the 1/2 wave resonance point at 990.1KHz.

Regards  itsu

Hi Itsu,

I have been playing with 5Spice looking into getting the 180 degree phase shift across the input to the delay line.  I have to say that the analysis agrees with your findings.  However it is possible to get what you want if the input source can float off ground.  See attached schematic and analysis.  The analysis shows the AC voltage building up to eventually reach a high value because there is no real line loss.  The 1M and 10M resistors are there because 5Spice demands that there be a DC path to ground at every node. Of course this is not your line parameters, I just modeled a 10 element delay line using arbitrary values.  Enjoy!!

Smudge

Hi Smudge,

thanks for taking the time to model that.

So under the right conditions, we should see some gain, that increasing amplitude looks promising

Regards Itsu

The increasing amplitude is because I did not model losses.  This is not OU, it is what any high Q system would do.  I did not follow Arie's explanation for coupling to the aether inside the delay line so I would be surprised if you do get anomalous gain, but that is always the hope.

Smudge

Ok,  so this is not what would happen under this 180° phase shift condition, but under no loss conditions. 


Thanks,  itsu

With this new closely wounded coil, i have the same problem as mentioned in post #88 above; i ran out of capacitance.

With the setup from Smudge in post #80 i again found traces of transmission line resonance at multiples of 1350Khz with this new coil

2714
4184
5523
6833 KHz.

The LC resonance when trimming the capacitor reaches 1127KHz, at which point i have no capacitor left to trim.

So i cannot match the LC resonance point (1127KHz) with the standing wave resonance point (1350KHz) of the transmission line to get this 180° phase shift.

Still thinking of using RG316 coax cable to redo this test.


Regards Itsu

Hi Itsu
Great to see you working away on this, amazing how low your frequency is compared to what he says in the patent.

Still trying to get energy and time to finish a larger coil, i am tempted to wire the bifilar in bucking mode, treat it as one coil with a series capacitance, add a series resistor to monitor the current and phase and then work out it's efficiency at different resonant points, as i did with Smudges device i tested.

The idea being i should meet the patents requirement for the bifilar phases with a simple setup to work out efficiency and cop.

Regards
Peter

Peter,

i have no luck in obtaining any phase shift between the both coils, and as that is the number one requirement, i cannot continue.

So hopefully you have more results with that approach, good luck.

Regards Itsu.

Itsu,

You might try the scheme I posted in reply #93.  This does require the input to be balanced so you could try to build the balun that I posted in rely #52 if you have some toroidal cores available.  That gives you the balanced feed that you require (i.e. 180 degree phase shift between the two wires) and that feeds directly to the transmission line via the capacitors that need adjusting for optimum performance.

Smudge

Smudge,

i have some toroid's available which i could use, not sure about the 50 Ohm line, guess i have to test severall dual lines for impedance.

Thanks,   regards Itsu

I am pretty sure that if you use say 0.5 mm copper wire with enamel insulation, use two strands and wind them into a twisted pair (I use a drill to do that) you end up with something close to 50 ohms.  Don't use plastic insulation because then the impedance comes out much higher.  You will need a significant length of twisted pair so as to put on the toroid core a significant number of turns (the number you would use if you were making a transformer primary to work at your frequency).

Smudge

Smudge,

i was already working on a toroid when i saw your latest update, guess i have to redo it, but i have some first results in the video below.

Toroid used is a nanoperm one (i have ferrite too if that is better) and the wire used is a twisted pair cat 5 ethernet wire of about 4.5m long (30 turns).
As i measured the impedance to be 120 Ohm (plastic insulation  :) ) i toke 2 pairs and paralleled them for a measured 55 Ohm now.

I used a standalone FG (via a 220/5V transformer) to isolate the signal, but it causes bad syncing of the scope signals.
When using 2 caps to ground on the toroid output i loose the 180° phase shift of the signals, so i left them out.

When not in resonance i have a 180° phase shift between tp1 and tp2 points signals, and this shifts to an "in phase" situation at the severall resonance points.

Components used besides the toroid and the Arie coils are 2x 47nF caps (were your 50nF caps are in the schematic) 2x 10M Ohm and 2x 1M Ohm resistors  
Please let me know what you think.

Video here:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7FcJJ1sswY&feature=youtu.be




Regards Itsu

Hi Itsu,

Just watched your video.  First thing to say is my 50nF caps were chosen for the arbitrary transmission line I modeled which has significant capacitance between the "wires" (in my line the "wires" are the series inductors).  Your line is completely different so you need to use much smaller values (like Arie's 10pF).  Second to get the balanced input across the line there is no connection at the other end of the line and that is different to Arie's circuit.  The other end of my line just floats (the 10M resistors are not needed but I have to put them in otherwise the Spice simulation doesn't work).  I see you have a connection to it but maybe that is there just for the 10M resistors.  If you have the Arie connection at the other end then try removing it.

The balun you constructed is designed for an unbalanced (one side grounded) input so you might use your grounded signal source and eliminate the 50/60Hz noise.  The balun converts that grounded input to an output that is balanced wrt ground and that gives you the 180 degree phase shift between the two output wires, even though the input has one wire grounded.  Your nanoperm core should be OK at these frequencies (I think  :-\ ).  I see no reason why your paralleled 120 ohm wires should not work OK.  As for the number of turns, if you could measure the inductance for that number of turns we could tell whether or not you need more.  I would check out the balun first by using a grounded input then shunting its output with 50 (or 55) ohms and scope each wire there to see that the output is now balanced wrt ground.  You should see half the input voltage on each wire and of course the 180 degree phase shift.  If you don't get that 180 degrees then that could indicate you need more turns on the core.

My gut feeling is you will get much different results with smaller coupling capacitors between the balun and the transmission line. 

Smudge

Smudge,  thanks again, i will concentrate first on the toroid.

I distributed the turns around the nanoperm core so they were evenly spaced along the whole circumference and used a 56 Ohm resistor across the output where i measured the both wires with my yellow/blue probes referenced to ground.
There was an amplitude unbalance, see first screenshot.

So i used another toroid from ferrite and more turns of similar cat 5 wire pairs.
This measured 3.92mH for each wire (the nanoperm toroid measured 54.8mH)
But also this ferrite toroid shows (even more) the amplitude unbalance, see screenshot 2.

We do have the almost 180° out of phase condition, so that's ok.

Video here:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4vc23FFXYI&feature=youtu.be


Any idea what is causing this amplitude unbalance?

By the way, when increasing the FG frequency there are some points where the amplitudes get equal, but then the phase shifts are less  :o  see screenshot 3   when at 13MHz

Regards itsu

Hi Itsu,

It seems the unbalance is related to the inductance, the nonoperm is better because of its higher inductance.  Perhaps more turns are indicated.  I guess you are also running into the frequency limit for both the nanoperm and the ferrite and that could explain the weird effects you are getting at the higher frequencies.  Your best result is showing the balun is working to some extent, and that would give you something interesting when connected to the Arie set-up.  You might also find better results with single twisted pair enameled wire.

Smudge

Quote from: Smudge on 2015.05.12, 07:56:21
Hi Itsu,

It seems the unbalance is related to the inductance, the nonoperm is better because of its higher inductance.  Perhaps more turns are indicated.  I guess you are also running into the frequency limit for both the nanoperm and the ferrite and that could explain the weird effects you are getting at the higher frequencies.  Your best result is showing the balun is working to some extent, and that would give you something interesting when connected to the Arie set-up.  You might also find better results with single twisted pair enameled wire.

Smudge

Itsu and Smudge,

I think the balun problem is that the output should be measured differentially which will give the desired results.  I have included an example built with a 1" od power ferrite which is not the best material for this application but I had it on hand. The wire is drill twisted 26 guage polyurethane coated and is wound in 20 turns on the core. A 47 ohm load resistor is across the balanced output.

I used the Math channel to display the differential between the balanced outputs as measured by CH2 (blu) and CH3 (cyan).  CH1 (yel) is the single ended generator input. The frequencies used are 1MHz, 5MHz, 10MHz, and 15MHz.  Also included is a pix of the balun.

The response is fairly good over the range tested but one can see the slight phase shift between the input and balanced output.

partzman

Smudge,

thanks, i will see what i can do.
(See bottom of this post.)


partzman,

thanks for joining in, i see that your balanced outputs  CH2 (blu) and CH3 (cyan) also have unequal amplitudes like mine.
Not sure what you mean by: "I used the Math channel to display the differential between the balanced outputs", did you substract (-) both channels?
Anyway, i suspect we need both balanced signals in an even amplitude and 180° phase shift for inputting into Aries setup, not a differentiated signal.



I was looking on the net for a 1:1 balun and found many, like the one mentioned here (see picture 1):
http://ea4eoz.blogspot.nl/2012/09/build-your-own-hf-balun.html

So i created that one, see picture 2  and found that it seems to work ok, see screenshot 3

I now have a balanced output with equal amplitude and 180° phase shift (blue and yellow,  purple is input from the FG)
This i will use as input for my Arie coil using 10pF capacitors (i will remove the 10M Ohm resistors).


Thanks all,   regards Itsu

Good find Itsu, much better than my balun  :-[ .  Good luck with the Arie work.

Smudge

Quote from: Itsu on 2015.05.12, 18:50:57

[snip]

partzman,

thanks for joining in, i see that your balanced outputs  CH2 (blu) and CH3 (cyan) also have unequal amplitudes like mine.
Not sure what you mean by: "I used the Math channel to display the differential between the balanced outputs", did you substract (-) both channels?
Anyway, i suspect we need both balanced signals in an even amplitude and 180° phase shift for inputting into Aries setup, not a differentiated signal.

[snip]

Thanks all,   regards Itsu

Itsu,

Yes, I used the Math channel to calculate CH2-CH3.  I also understand your requirement of equal and 180 degrees out of phase wrt ground for Arie setup.  Good luck with your tests.

Edit- Placed response outside quote!

partzman

This is as i have my circuit set up right now (see picture 1).
I had to use 10nF capacitors as the suggested 10pF capacitors would not let any signal through (10pF @ 1MHz = 15K Ohm reactance).

I have some resonance points at which we have mostly 180° phase shifts between the TP1 and TP2, but also some other shifts.
First resonance point can be seen in the screenshot 1 @ 823 KHz
TP1 = yellow (compared to ground)
TP2 = Blue   (compared to ground)
TP3 = purple (compared to ground)

Further resonance points are at (KHz):
1893 180° phase shift
2963 180° phase shift
4313  90° phase shift
5613  90° phase shift

The biggest peak is at 31.153MHz  :D at which we are at 0° phase shift. but good amplitudes, see screenshot 2
(FG was set at 5Vpp input @ 50 Ohm all the time).


Question; where/how to pick up the output signal to make some input/output calculations.

Thanks,  regards Itsu

Quote from: Itsu on 2015.05.13, 15:15:45
This is as i have my circuit set up right now (see picture 1).
I had to use 10nF capacitors as the suggested 10pF capacitors would not let any signal through (10pF @ 1MHz = 15K Ohm reactance).

I have some resonance points at which we have mostly 180° phase shifts between the TP1 and TP2, but also some other shifts.
First resonance point can be seen in the screenshot 1 @ 823 KHz
TP1 = yellow (compared to ground)
TP2 = Blue   (compared to ground)
TP3 = purple (compared to ground)

Further resonance points are at (KHz):
1893 180° phase shift
2963 180° phase shift
4313  90° phase shift
5613  90° phase shift

The biggest peak is at 31.153MHz  :D at which we are at 0° phase shift. but good amplitudes, see screenshot 2
(FG was set at 5Vpp input @ 50 Ohm all the time).


Question; where/how to pick up the output signal to make some input/output calculations.

Thanks,  regards Itsu

Itsu,

Well, nobody else has responded to your question of where to pick up energy measurements so I'll offer some suggestions.  If your inputs are 180 degrees out-of-phase, a single load resistor matching the network impedance could be connected to the now open ends of your red and green coils.  The output voltages would have to be measured differentially possibly using hi resistance dividers as Smudge suggested if your scope probe capacitance is relatively high.  The frequency chosen for these measurements ideally should be at least 1/2 wavelength for your setup to be in the spirit of Arie's patent.

To measure the high peak output at 31.153MHz, a load could be connected to the open output of each winding and connected to ground.  This connection would be required due to the lack of phase shift as shown in your last scope shot.  This measurement would not meet Arie's patent requirement of opposing signals in adjacent wires but it would be interesting to see what results you get however!

partzman

Thanks partzman,

i did monitor the open ends of the coils with my scope, and found we also there have the 180° phase difference, but only when NOT at resonance!
When approaching the resonance points, it peaks and shifts to "in phase".
I did not use a 56 Ohm load resistor or the voltage dividers (10M / 1M) yet, but will look into that later today.

No special effects found around the by Arie mentioned 8.5MHz.

Regards Itsu 

My reading of the Arie patent is that the OU occurs at the standing wave voltage peaks where the thin dielectric between the two wires is at maximum stress.  I do not understand why this should be but if it is to be tested than it is important to get the maximum voltage there.  I originally thought that the Arie circuit was designed to have two different resonant circuits that were made to coincide in frequency.  Then each one has its own magnification factor and the overall voltage magnification could be the product of the two Q's.  Your three wire balun suggests to me a way of achieving this by winding a third wire onto the large Arie coil.  See attached image.  The signal source drives a series LC circuit (green wire) so you get voltage magnification, the voltage across the L is much larger than the driving voltage.  Now to get a 180 degree voltage across the other transmission line wire we have a third wire (shown black) that couples inductively to L and is connected to give that 180 degree phase.  This 180 degree voltage is then connected to the other transmission line (red) wire.  Might be worth a try.

Smudge

Smudge,

thanks for your thoughts, i am missing the "attached image" though  :)

Regards Itsu

Woops!  Forgot to attach the image.  Problem now is I am away from home for the next two weeks and the image is on my home computer.  Essentially it shows a third winding on your Arie coil with same number of turns so that it will get the same voltage induced in it.  Then with one of your double conductors in series with a capacitor as a series resonant circuit you can use the extra winding to get a 180 degree shifted voltage identical to that across the L simply by the polarity of the connection to it.  And then feed this to the other conductor.

Smudge

@Smudge

QuoteMy reading of the Arie patent is that the OU occurs at the standing wave voltage peaks where the thin dielectric between the two wires is at maximum stress.  I do not understand why this should be but if it is to be tested than it is important to get the maximum voltage there.  I originally thought that the Arie circuit was designed to have two different resonant circuits that were made to coincide in frequency.  Then each one has its own magnification factor and the overall voltage magnification could be the product of the two Q's.  Your three wire balun suggests to me a way of achieving this by winding a third wire onto the large Arie coil.  See attached image.  The signal source drives a series LC circuit (green wire) so you get voltage magnification, the voltage across the L is much larger than the driving voltage.  Now to get a 180 degree voltage across the other transmission line wire we have a third wire (shown black) that couples inductively to L and is connected to give that 180 degree phase.  This 180 degree voltage is then connected to the other transmission line (red) wire.  Might be worth a try.

That sounds similar to the non-ferrous magnet circuit which attracts non-ferrous metals such as aluminum and copper. It relies on what is called travelling magnetism whereby a one turn coil, an inner aluminum washer on an iron core in this case, initially opposes the expanding magnetic field from an outer high turn coil. Lenz law dictates that the one turn coil must oppose the expanding magnetic field thus the high turn primary coil initially has a higher field strength than that in the one turn coil. The phase differential which is in fact a field strength differential causes non-ferrous materials with eddy currents induced in them to follow the field change thus we have a non-ferrous magnet of sorts.

It's kind of funny that all those people using shorted coils in their motor/gens never really understood what was happening when the effect is really quite simple.

AC

Quote from: Smudge on 2015.05.15, 17:10:44
Woops!  Forgot to attach the image.  Problem now is I am away from home for the next two weeks and the image is on my home computer.  Essentially it shows a third winding on your Arie coil with same number of turns so that it will get the same voltage induced in it.  Then with one of your double conductors in series with a capacitor as a series resonant circuit you can use the extra winding to get a 180 degree shifted voltage identical to that across the L simply by the polarity of the connection to it.  And then feed this to the other conductor.

Smudge

Thanks Smudge,  "i get the picture"  :)

Not sure to try that as it involved major rebuilding (rewiring) of my coils and it moves further away from the Arie patent.
I will try to experiment further with the setup i have right now as it is very close to the specs layed down by the patent, there should be some truth in it i guess.


Regards Itsu

Quote from: Allcanadian on 2015.05.15, 21:59:59
@Smudge
That sounds similar to the non-ferrous magnet circuit which attracts non-ferrous metals such as aluminum and copper. It relies on what is called travelling magnetism whereby a one turn coil, an inner aluminum washer on an iron core in this case, initially opposes the expanding magnetic field from an outer high turn coil. Lenz law dictates that the one turn coil must oppose the expanding magnetic field thus the high turn primary coil initially has a higher field strength than that in the one turn coil. The phase differential which is in fact a field strength differential causes non-ferrous materials with eddy currents induced in them to follow the field change thus we have a non-ferrous magnet of sorts.

It's kind of funny that all those people using shorted coils in their motor/gens never really understood what was happening when the effect is really quite simple.

AC

Eddy currents induced into a body turns that body into a magnet (electromagnet) and any magnet within a non-uniform field will endure a translatory force.  The direction of that force depends upon the polarity of the electromagnet relative to the non-uniformity.  This can then appear as a repulsive force (as in the case of say copper filings  against an AC electromagnet) or an attractive force, but the latter requires two AC driven coils having different diameters, and the attracting region is quite small.  The repulsion effect is well known and made use of at recycling plants to cause non-ferrous metal to jump off a conveyor belt.  The attract effect is little known, but it could be used in gold prospecting to get away from the old panning method.  It surprises me that no one has yet produced a solar powered gold magnet.  Or even something like the recycling jumper that causes the gold particles in the pan to jump.

Smudge

I finally got round to finishing my Arie Coil.

Diameter 14cm length 27.5cm

Each coil approx, 2 coils GREEN & RED enamelled wire 1mm diameter
LCR test @ 10KHz
L=830.6uH
R=1.2475 OHM
Z=52.20 OHM
Q=41.875

Interwinding capacitance 14.22nF

I setup as per the diagram below, coils are wired in anti phase, see dot on inductor in diagram.

With this setup i am getting a couple of frequencies that i get 180 Degree phase shift across the 2 caps

Cyan = 1 Ohm Resistor for current monitoring
Yellow = driven winding capacitance
Magenta = open winding capacitance

Looks like i have the current 180 degrees out of phase with the driven capacitance voltage, i should have scoped the Sig gen, so hopefully tomorrow night.
Not quiet sure how to proceed with power measurements yet, i will see what the phase of the Sig gen is in relation to these other scoped signals.

OK i added my 4th scope chan to monitor the phase of the sig gen voltage, it's in phase with my current so i am consuming a small amount of real power to drive the coils.

Note the Blue & Magenta scoped waves are on top of each other and the same amplitude so the blue is hidding the magenta.

the interesting thing is that i have yellow on the green coils cap which is 180 degree out of phase with the current, and i have magenta in phase with the current on the other cap.

Now if i were to use as in the patent the 2 caps for an output i would get a sinewave which is the sum of the yellow & magenta that is in phase with the current as in my purple math chan, i wonder what would happen if i try drawing a current from this as the yellow component's current is 180 degree out of phase with the magenta phases current yet i have managed to sum their voltages.

I tried connecting an Avramenko plug to the open red coils end which has a 500 ohm load and i read 400mV which equates to a power of 320uW, i did not see any increase in power consumption, although 320uW is small i suppose so not necessarily a valid test.

Looks like my input power is 1.07ma x 1.78V = 1.9mW

Hi Peter,

Nice going, could it be that your probes (1M ohm / 10pF?) are loading the probed points to much like mentioned by Smudge here:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2897.msg48394#msg48394

Perhaps you could try the 1:10 divider to see if things change.

Regards Itsu

That's a good point Itsu, i want to change my 1 Ohm current sense resistor to 10 Ohm to give me better resolution, i think i will try 2 100pf caps so maybe my probes wont be such a problem.
I want to try a high value resistor across the caps as a slight load, i want to know where the current comes from and what it does to the signal source.

Cheers
Peter

BUMP

Thank you Itsu, this is the same one that I had before and very related to what I am doing.

Regards

Mike 8)

Mike,

thanks for the BUMP,  i see i still have some questions, like why i never could obtain the 180° phase shift on the signals of the 2 coils etc.

I have rewind my bifilar coil and allthough i am still not satisfied with the result i will repeat some tests.

This bonded bifilar wire (1mm thick) is a nightmare to work with.

Below again the general setup (Fig. 2) of the patent, Fig. 3b is the one being replicated.
(what is this Vin thingy at C and D? Just the 220V AC in?  Is 10 an ordinary FG?)

Regards Itsu

Quote from: Itsu on 2018.09.21, 19:14:09

Below again the general setup (Fig. 2) of the patent, Fig. 3b is the one being replicated.
(what is this Vin thingy at C and D? Just the 220V AC in?  Is 10 an ordinary FG?)

Regards Itsu

I would say it is a mains powered SG and not a home brew generator.

Your output from the SG, how are you connecting it to the circuit? in other words which is ground and which is signal? I would say it makes a difference with looking at the diagram.

The problem with these patent diagrams, you never get the whole picture, you need to guess a little. Like the great phrase:- THOSE IN THE ART. ;)

I have taken some of this patent and gone further into the pst SM stuff, my work on STEAP and Ron S. The Jaños papers are of real importance and brings everything together, the thing is I have had to design from the beginning to try getting what is needed.

I think it is easier using 3 phases on a toroid, 120º,240º and 360º full circule. I think the power comes in from the floating ground, that is where the "aether" inter reacts between the "signals" standing waves, it is that ground that increases current circulation , the output then, if in phase, is greater than the input.

You only need a few % over input per cycle, at say 5KHz and extract DC on the output, you have power O0

Well that's my take.

Regards

Mike 8)

Mike,

i tried both ways to hook up my FG, first i had the black lead (ground) in the middle of the both caps, lateron
i changed that on Smudge his suggestion to the red lead there.

It did not make much difference in obtaining the 180° phase shift on both coils.

Ok, on the patent reading art and your attemps, i am no designer, so rely mostly on diagrams that suppose to
provide a working setup.

Perhaps i should go for the toroid design (Fig 3c) which suppose to be more difficult to build but gives better
results.


Itsu

Itsu

OK, was just a thought.

I really can't understand the 180º being of any benefit at all :-\

Look at the attached of 3 signals of the same frequency but 120º out of phase. Now that makes a lot of sense and you can see why.

I used to think why a lot was made of the beauty of 3,6,9, now I think I know why, it is the harmonics in relation to the phase difference. If the harmonics are in phase they will ADD their power. Now you would think that with the conservation of energy they would add up to the same value of the original wave, and you would be right. But and a big BUT, the magnetic interference between the waves due to the way the distribution of those waves are made, has caused a third interference, that of the aether which adds to the sum as well. We have now just gone OU by whatever % could be vibrated out of that aether. I use the word aether as I really do not know what it is, and neither does anyone else.

Regards

Mike 8)

@Cent! That was a great post.
I went and googled 'harmonic problems in power lines'.
https://www.google.com/search?q=harmonic+problems+in+power+lines&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1 (https://www.google.com/search?q=harmonic+problems+in+power+lines&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1)
Well now doesnt this promote a problem with society as a whole?
The list of problems is ad infinitum. What this means is opportunity abounds but at the cost of a great design turn over and career killing changes.
At this onset this tells me our infrastructure is seriously flawed to enable the dampening free energy to ground.
Now I realize I just asked for a bullet to the head but if one does not adhere to societal demands or whims this pursuit would benefit the designer greatly, especially when you read how the industry is giving a lot of pontifications in the realm of avoiding these.
There are too many ways to avoid free energy.
The third harmonic seems to be caused by a pressure from entropy that we ignore at all costs.
The third harmonic power reflection could have been the 'Secret' Steven Mark' was alluding to.

GK

We will know soon, I'm about to fire the TPU up tomorrow if all goes well.

Just doing the final connections to the coils, keep your fingers crossed. The clock input frequency can go over 1 MHz if need be just by changing plugin caps.

Regards

Mike 8)

I dusted of my deGeus coil and rewound it after straightening out the (twisted) wire as much as possible.
I connected it like where Peterae left of:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2897.msg48957#msg48957

So the 2 coils are driven in opposition (anti phase), see the dosts on the above linked post from Peter.

Indeed i now too have the both phases at 180° phase shift, but also different amplitudes.

Next i will do some further characterisation of these coils (inductance, impedance, resistance, capacitance etc.)

I measure a strong LC resonance on both coils around 700KHz, but we are after the standing wave (double amplitude)
of this ±90m long wire.

Presumably we need to match up the LC resonance with the standing wave resonance to get into business.

With the 7pF caps i have in place (variable type) i can vary this LC resonance between 600 and 1100KHz.

Will do some time domain reflection measurements too to determine the velocity factor of this transmission line
and its characteristic impedance.

Itsu 

Got these measurements on my deGeus coils

between coils measures 20nF @ 100Khz
each coil measures 1.39mH
each coil measures 1.6 Ohm
each coil has 145 turns on 16cm former.
each coil length is then: 16cm diameter = 50.27cm circumference x 145 = 72.9m
both coil (transmission line) measures a round trip of 740ns (time domain reflection), so 370ns for single length.
370ns in free space means 111m, so with the 72.9m we have a velocity factor of 0.65.
The impedance measured with this time domain measurement is 30 Ohm.

Itsu

Selfresonance of the both coils are around 1.8MHz (inductance is 1.39mH, so self capacitance is 5pF (in series)??).
When adding 7pF capacitors in serie, this series resonance frequency drops to around 700KHz and is prominently visible on the scope and SA.
When varying the caps, this series resonance point varies too.

But there are also other resonance points visible, like
2.050Mhz,
3.075MHz (strongest)
4.100Mhz
6.250MHz
8.200Mhz
etc.

These resonance points do not move when varying the series caps, so this makes me believe that those resonance points are the standing waves of this 73m long transmittion line.

@ 73m, ½  wavelength, frequency = 2.05Mhz
@ 73m, ¾  wavelength, frequency = 3.075
@ 73m, 1  wavelength, frequency = 4.1Mhz
@ 73m, 1¼ wavelength, frequency = 5.125MHz
@ 73m, 1½ wavelength, frequency = 6.15
@ 73m, 1¾ wavelength, frequency = 7.175MHz
@ 73m, 2  wavelength, frequency = 8.2MHz 
etc.

The shortest wavelength would be ¼ wavelength at a frequency of 1.025Mhz (but was not detected).

This 1.025Mhz together with the LC frequency at 1.025Mhz reacheable via very minimum series capacitance (1pF or so i guess) would synchronize the both resonances for optimum result.

But there are some problems.
Fig. 1b shows at least 2 full waves, pointing to 8.2Mhz (which was also specifically mentioned on the patent (8.5Mhz))
Then for ¼ wavelength to be set on the coil, one side must be grounded.

So that he matched up both the LC resonance and the standing wave resonance is not likely i think.

Guess i will shoot for the 2 wavelength at 8.2MHz for now.

Itsu

QuoteSo that he matched up both the LC resonance and the standing wave resonance is not likely i think.

In all my coils this matching is what I invariably aim for.
The varied configurations produce anomalies of effect specific to the configuration whether EMPs, sparks, vibrations, or antinodes.Cutting the conduction at the peak of an antinode always produces a discharge of some sorts.

GK,

so perhaps he uses a harmonic of that LC resonance (preferrable the 3th) to match it up.

I see besides the strongest 700KHz LC resonance point a fairly strong 3.075Mhz or so resonance point.
So if i can "move" that 700Khz resonance point to about 1Mhz by lowering the series capacitance, its
3th harmonics might math up with that.

Problem is that i do not detect any moveable harmonics resonance points of that 700Khz LC resonance point
(do LC harmonics resonance points exsist?).
And why is that 3.075Mhz resonance point a do see so strong (@ only ¾ wave length)? Am i screwing up with the
velocity factor  (0.65) here?

Also the preference from Arie to use/mention specific this 8.5Mhz frequency is strange then.

Food for though, thanks.

Itsu

This has been the boon dongle for everyone from beginner to eccentric.
Materials, configuration, power, pulse format and frequency. Most combinations don't do anything of interest. A smaller set do something. And a very slight set does phenomenal things.
Lets focus on the slight set. This would be where the test does a number of things, like where a great high resonance performs wireless power or LEDs glow very brightly and one needs more than one in series. But this is air core primarily. On the other side of the experiment we deal with saturation. This has pros and cons also and some new benefit. But then the experimenter goes off thinking about newer materials and this can get expensive with no further outcome. Ouch.
As I have always taken the high road as in the permanent 30 mile high look down when I see something that could apply I dive in and dissect to the best of my skillsets without becoming stuck too far down in pontification.
Back up to the higher view...
Over the years I have seen that 99.99% of the devices all deal with some portion of the magnetic field whether in air or core. This is obvious. But what is not is the ratios of the field and where they reside.
If we have a saturated core then vibrating the air portion doesn't do much as the core is the main feed. If we minimize the core in proportion to the amount of flux or field we want in air we then have a stepping stone into the next level of resonance. The field can be rung and it will sustain further than normal. We have all seen this.
With this in mind we can start to look at devices as a bipartisan function. Think Howard Johnson motor and Magnacoaster. Disregard the bad vibes. I have talked about these two before.
These devices like others that are promoted to work have something in common. The operator controls the air field flux tenacity, the strength of the flux surrounding the device. This is an incorrect description though. These devices control the status of the surrounding or coupling field. Magnacoaster controls the coupling internal between to items, i.e. a large core with a small neodymium, a field coil with a pickup and an air gap. The Howard Johnson takes another approach with the air gap. He sets the resonance in a wave motion around and between the two items of the device, the motor and the generator. His frequency control is the ratio of the two parallel pulleys.
There has got to be slippage allowance in the mechanical or electrical side to the magnetic field side so that the ringing can control the speed of the driver.
If one looks at any of the devices this way one can easily see the failure or working point of any non working device.
The SEG has inherent slippage also. It is in the mechanical side.
Pulling this all together causes one to step back and re analyze with a greater view. What part is missing or off kilter?
 Just like you  did.
SM stated it the best when he was talking about snipping wire at a very small increment to achieve the tightness for operation and not of operation.
Diameter of a ring could be a factor when taken into account with the core amount and power size. This would spell a definite wave length of the mag field wave length which has an inherent power factor of that resonance point.
In any documentation it would only take a small fractional change to create a device that doesn't do anything. But it looks perfectly legit. And it previously worked!
All in the pursuit of a self correcting operation.
Hope this isn't too far off the beam for any one.

GK,

Thanks for your insights, i believe almost all here discussed apparatus are linked together somehow,
so no one will be "off topic" or will be "far off the beam" when discussing or presenting his or hers brain childs

Itsu