Few people realize that we have available at the earth's surface a huge magnetic vector potential. It is the small spatial non-uniformity of that vector potential (expressed as the vector Curl function) that we see as the well known Earth's magnetic field.
I believe this magnetic vector potential could be a useful resource so I have started this bench to see if it leads anywhere. Here is a paper describing the magnetic vector potential and how movement through it leads to an electro-kinetic potential which can easily be as high as 1 kilovolt. That you can get this high voltage simply from movement through space is something that has been overlooked for over 120 years. More papers to follow with specific experimental schemes.
Smudge
OK here is paper number 2. This uses drift velocity of conduction electrons to get electro-kinetic potential. Another paper will deal with rotating discs.
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
I have just looked at part two.
Could we use Co axial cable ? By stripping back the braid at the East and West ends leaving the straight sections braided ?
Is there an optimum separation gap ?
Just some initial thoughts.
Kind regards, Graham.
to note
Mirror threads here
http://overunity.com/17063/smudges-musings-on-electro-kinetic-potential-in-the-earths-a-field/msg498062/#new
and here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20677-smudges-musings-electro-kinetic-potential-earth-s-field.html
respectfully
Chet K
edit to add link
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.01.06, 11:43:37
That you can get this high voltage simply from movement through space is something that has been overlooked for over 120 years.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.01.06, 19:18:11
Could we use Co axial cable ? By stripping back the braid at the East and West ends leaving the straight sections braided ?
From Smudge's first paper:
5. Closed paths and closed circuits.
It therefore makes sense to consider the presence of a "field" of those scalar values throughout space. It is the math for this scalar "field" that cannot be challenged. Such a "field" of scalar values is not true for (v.A) since its value at any point depends on the velocity of the observer. If the observer is not moving there is no potential.
And from the Introduction:
Note that 203 Weber/m is a huge value unlikely to be seen in a laboratory (to get an appreciation of this you would find that value of A field at the cylindrical surface of a huge fully-magnetized piece of iron that is 400m in diameter, 4km long and weighing 4 giga-tonnes!). Surprisingly, few people are aware of this aspect of the Earth's magnetism and little attention has been given to the possibility of employing this as a useful resource.
It's a very interesting experiment that would benefit from a comparison of the Earth sphere, and the relatively much smaller Iron cylinder models.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.01.06, 19:18:11
Dear Cyril.
I have just looked at part two.
Could we use Co axial cable ? By stripping back the braid at the East and West ends leaving the straight sections braided ?
Is there an optimum separation gap ?
Just some initial thoughts.
Kind regards, Graham.
The coaxial cable idea seems like a neat way to form the capacitor completely around the wire. Hopefully Smudge will chime in regarding it's efficacy. Should be easy to test.
This was a good refresher and addition to Smudge's 2016 paper on the subject. A good read, as always although my thick head struggles with the math and some of the concepts.
I can't help but think this is related to the Steve Mark TPU and the Hendershot device (cutting "East and West, as well as North and South") Hendershot remarked that his discovery was while researching to invent a better compass. Smudge remarks that if this works it would be a compass working on a new principle.
Would such a device exhibit "stiction" in forced movement?
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.01.06, 19:18:11
Dear Cyril.
I have just looked at part two.
Could we use Co axial cable ? By stripping back the braid at the East and West ends leaving the straight sections braided ?
Is there an optimum separation gap ?
Just some initial thoughts.
Kind regards, Graham.
Yes, using coax is a neat solution for an initial look-see. From memory the capacitance of 50 ohm coax is about 20pF per foot so if you had a 1 ft straight section the two capacitors in series gives just 10pF as the branch connection. That might be enough to detect something with an oscilloscope at sensible drive frequencies say up to 1MHz. You could strip back the braid over small sections at each end of the curves, then use the braid on the curved portions for applying high DC potential so as to get surface electrons on those curved conductors that could flow at greater velocity. That gives you another parameter to play with. I'll knock up a sketch.
Smudge
Here's a sketch of the scheme using coax cable. I have shown the use of toroidal cores to induce current into the closed loop at two places that are diametrically opposite, so as to ensure that you can't get direct induction into the load. The resistors in the high DC voltage circuit are just high value isolation resistors.
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
Many thanks for the diagram, some dimensions would help in the construction. Suitable length and width separation.
What sort of value is our DC HV ? And how smooth does it have to be?
I'll try to get something " knocked up " over the weekend.
Kind regards, Graham.
Dear Graham,
You need to be able to swing it around to look for a maximum when aligned E-W and a minimum (or zero) when aligned N-S. So I imagine the straight section to be about 1 ft long, maybe up to 3 ft. The distance between the straight sections is immaterial, so really that comes down to the ease of producing the curved sections passing through the toroidal cores. The High voltage DC is something to try to see if it improves things, and I envision it going up to about 10KV if the gaps in the braiding are large enough to prevent sparking there. It is purely a voltage that is needed, no current draw. Again those gaps can be whatever is easiest, perhaps 1 inch.
Regards
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
Many thanks for the extra info. O0
I prefer the embodiment attached from your paper as it would be easier to apply. Any objections ?
Kind regards, Graham.
Copper is not the fastest conductor
Element Molar iVolume Conductivity
Compar. to Cu [mol/m3 %Cu] [S/m %Cu]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cesium 10% 8%
Rubidium 13% 14%
Potassium 16% 24%
Radium 16% 2%
Barium 18% 5%
Strontium 21% 13%
Europium 25% 2%
Ytterbium 27% 6%
Calcium 28% 49%
Sodium 30% 36%
Polonium 31% 4%
Lanthanum 32% 3%
Bismuth 33% 1%
Praseodymium 34% 2%
Cerium 34% 2%
Neodymium 35% 3%
Samarium 35% 2%
Promethium 36% 2%
Gadolinium 36% 1%
Yttrium 36% 3%
Thorium 36% 11%
Terbium 37% 1%
Dysprosium 37% 2%
Holmium 38% 2%
Erbium 39% 2%
Lead 39% 8%
Antimony 39% 4%
Thulium 39% 2%
Lutetium 40% 3%
Thallium 41% 11%
Phosphorus 42% 17%
Tin 44% 15%
Indium 45% 20%
Scandium 47% 3%
Protactinium 47% 9%
Mercury 48% 2%
Zirconium 51% 4%
Magnesium 51% 39%
Hafnium 53% 6%
Arsenic 54% 6%
Cadmium 55% 24%
Lithium 55% 19%
Uranium 57% 6%
Plutonium 58% 1%
Gallium 60% 12%
Neptunium 61% 1%
Tantalum 66% 13%
Niobium 66% 11%
Titanium 67% 4%
Silver 69% 105%
Gold 70% 76%
Aluminum 71% 64%
Tungsten 75% 34%
Molybdenum 76% 34%
Platinum 77% 16%
Zinc 78% 29%
Rhenium 80% 9%
Palladium 80% 17%
Technetium 84% 8%
Iridium 84% 36%
Osmium 85% 20%
Vanadium 85% 8%
Rhodium 86% 39%
Ruthenium 87% 24%
Manganese 97% 1%
Chromium 98% 13%
Copper 100% 100%
Iron 100% 17%
Cobalt 108% 29%
Nickel 108% 24%
Beryllium 146% 42%
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.01.07, 14:57:17
The High voltage DC is something to try to see if it improves things, and I envision it going up to about 10KV if the gaps in the braiding are large enough to prevent sparking there. It is purely a voltage that is needed, no current draw.
So Grum can use his Wimshurst machine to pull the electrons to the surface
A side note, The "Boss" is neatening up the thread at OU.com so things can flow smoothly...
respectfully
Chet K
Which thread?
http://overunity.com/17063/smudges-musings-on-electro-kinetic-potential-in-the-earths-a-field/msg498062/#new
...but I see only your posts in this mirror thread and nothing to clean up. ???
Stefan removed all off topic comments already
Dear Cyril.
I have just spotted the term " RF " in the diagram, what frequencies are we thinking about?
I have nothing capable of going over 1 MHz and if we're talking power it's a no go.
I'll wait upon your reply before getting on with any construction.
Kind regards, Graham.
I built Smudge's loop fastened to a 3 foot long by 5 inch wide piece of plywood with some old RG8/U shielded cable that I had on hand.
This stuff has 7x19 AWG strands for an inner wire of equivalent AWG 11 . and has a solid inner dielectric, not the newer foam type. This is old stock, most of the newer types have polyethylene foam dielectric.
The inner wire bundle should sustain plenty of current, so can be driven hard without melt through.
Now I have to add the RF drive transformer and HV supply and testing will begin.
Dear Graham,
IMO RF is anything over 50KHz and I don't envision going above 1MHz. As a guy more concerned with things mechanical you might be more interested in my next paper published right here. I think this has great possibilities since it appears you can get significant induced EK potential, and the frequencies will be much lower than 1MHz. And you don't drive with RF, you drive an electric motor to get the movement.
Best Regards
Smudge
Well it seems Ion is ahead of Grumage in the build of my long loop, so maybe Grum could turn his attention to the rotating devices?
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
Many thanks for your latest paper. O0
As I was reading the resemblance to Innova Tehno 1943 was uncanny!
Now dear Verpies published a chart a few posts ago, what would be the ideal metal/metal combination ? From the pictures published on OU.Com it appears to be a Copper/Aluminium combo.
kind regards, Graham.
The Rotating Disk in the Earth's Field paper is interesting to me. An early technological direction I pursued was the Hydro Electro Lytic Pump (HELP), an infrastructure that could easily incorporate your work as the electronic driver, as it is a variation on the Tesla turbine.
In Smudge's model the electrical input energy to provide a rotational moment of a mass is purely dedicated to that task in air, developing a polarity differential across the disc, and a HV KV output at the disc rim largest at the Equator.
My HELP turbine technology uses a rotating opposing flat surface capacitor plate to electrolyse a liquid and cause liquid to gas phase change. This is at 90 degrees to Smudge's electrical gradient.
Dear Graham,
I am not sure what the different metals do in the Innova Tehno thingy. For looking into my ideas different metals are not required, so use whatever is most convenient.
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.01.08, 16:44:58
For looking into my ideas different metals are not required, so use whatever is most convenient.
Verpies conductor "speed" list in post #11 would allow you to plot a performance value for each conductor listed, if the disk was made out of that pure material, and all other variables remained constant for each test. (apart from Density.. because that is defined as Mass per unit Volume)
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3395.msg59182#msg59182
After you have got a few different results for each different conductor material you could estimate a line of best fit.
See if any of the current frames of reference fit (trusted scientific record), if not a new frame of reference may require a new definition within the system.
If you are defining the pure root structure all current knowledge should fit into the tree.. ;D
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.01.08, 16:44:58
For looking into my ideas different metals are not required, so use whatever is most convenient.
Different metals do not provide much advantage for your rotating disk device, but your device based on the electron drift velocity can benefit from them.
For example the electron drift velocity in Cesium is 10x faster but its resistance is 12.5x higher (1/8%) than Copper.
Calcium metal has only 2 times the resistance of Copper but 3.5 times higher electron drift velocity.
Ran some preliminary tests this morning and will post the pics of the test setup when the camera is charged.
I was able to drive up to 9 amps at 20kHz into the loop using a current step up toroid, tube audio amp and oscillator. I also put about 10kV on the turnaround sections. I used a 1k resistor across the center section and scoped across the resistor. I was able to sweep the frequency within the saturation range of the toroid and amplifier, roughly 1k to 25k
In no case did I see any DC or AC output from the center section outer shields, with or without HV attached to the turnaround sections. There was only a tiny bit of noise (low mV) which did not seem to be affected by changes in E-W alignment.
The Rg8/U with 11AWG inner conductor did not even get warm to the touch with 9 amps continuous at 20kHz.
I will run some further tests as time permits today. Sorry if this initial null result disappoints. Hopefully something will show up later, or someone else may have better results.
p.s in looking at the pictures, the black box is the HV supply and the white wire was actually clipped onto the far end turnaround.
Quote from: ION on 2017.01.08, 18:17:43
There was only a tiny bit of noise (low mV) which did not seem to be affected by changes in E-W alignment.
It was that kind of E-W dependent mV noise that was expected.
Quote from: verpies on 2017.01.08, 18:46:39
It was that kind of E-W dependent mV noise that was expected.
At garage workshop level would detecting specific material values be realistically possible ? If so, a random attempt to observe an anomaly could take a while.. null results appreciated.
If there is a scalar "field" of energy available throughout Earth space, with an energy gradient at highest potential at the Equator, defining what is moving in respect to everything else in the model is important.
This is a general post, I am quite interested in this, and verpies just saved everyone a hell of a lot of time! O0
Quote from: verpies on 2017.01.08, 18:46:39
It was that kind of E-W dependent mV noise that was expected.
I will say again that I found
no E-W dependent signal or DC level. The "noise" that was present existed with or without the driving signal or HV source, and it seemed to be just ambient EMI.
I looked for any kind of directional peaking of signal but it was not seen.
If the experiment is to prove the earth "A" field exists with this type of test setup, then I believe a noise free environment and better test setup will be needed as my present test setup and environment is masking potential signal, which I would guess to be in the microvolt or less range.
As a potential power source, the present suggested setup may need a revision , as I was pumping into the toroid 30 to 40 Watts and detecting only mV random noise across the 1K resistor, so uWatt range. Better measurements with some numbers will follow, but my initial impression is that the signal does not correlate to anything more than ambient EMI from lighting etc., with no directional E-W or N-S preference.
I welcome and urge Verpies, Graham, and others to replicate so that we can compare notes in order too see what is being missed. I know Verpies and Graham have suitable equipment for this.
Good work Ion. The only thing I can suggest is a much higher value "load" resistor. The ability to pump current through the load will be limited by the relatively small capacitance coupling values, and maybe a higher load (like 1M !!) would supply more voltage. With drive at only one end I would have expected to see some direct coupling into the "load" and not just noise. If you can get some sinewave signal there then you might look for variation with orientation.
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
May I draw your attention to my post here?
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3395.msg59181#msg59181
I have a broken " instant heat " soldering gun, I could use it to drive the loop, thoughts?
With regards to your third paper, I have at my disposal over 100 2" diameter hollow Brass balls with a hole through the centre line. Rather than a disc could I create a hub with spokes, said spokes made of " stud bar/allthread " the balls bolted at the ends of each spoke? Or is the disc of metal an important factor?
Not having much metal in the workshop these days but a ridiculous amount of sheet plastic off cuts another alternative could be covering the plastic disc with Aluminium foil and fitting some M 8 Brass dome head nuts with suitable division?
Kind regards, Graham.
Dear Graham,
I assume the instant heat solder gun operates on 50Hz mains so not really a high enough frequency to drive any significant current through the capacitive coupling. But you could be OK if you just look for voltage across a high resistance, like the 1M or 10M scope probe itself. There is no doubt the gun would pump current into the loop.
As regards the spinning disc approach, I have had further thoughts on this expressed in the paper here. I don't know whether you or anyone else have come across the electro-static (not really static but you know what I mean, using electro-static attraction and repulsion) motor described here where the commutation is carried out using spark gaps as one electrode passes another. This uses an insulated disc and you say you have lots of plastic around. If you also have some DC EHT source (which I suspect you have) it could be an interesting exercise making this form of motor. You could perhaps cut your brass balls in half then glue them to the disc, having first put a bolt though the hole, said bold having been tapered down to a point. Even if the earth's field thing doesn't work the electro-static motor will/should.
Smudge
A quick search on electrostatic motors reveals many designs using Coulomb forces but none of them use spark gap commutation. Now either my brain has done something silly in working out what charge the isolated electrode gets via the spark as it passes the fixed one, or this simple idea has remained hidden in plain sight for centuries. Maybe not very practical due to tip erosion, but even that could be overcome with appropriate design.
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
Many thanks for the new paper. O0
With regard to the soldering gun I was thinking on the lines of a variable frequency input from a power amplifier not specifically at 50 Hz.
I wonder if TinselKoala has dabbled in this area? Electrostatic, that is.
Kind regards, Graham.
I have dabbled a little myself.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-AqL-8RGNc
Could I use that disc with some woodscrews poking through as a " Quick and dirty " experiment ?
Oh, and here's my laboratory grade Van de Graaff generator in action !! ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiqEtigpJaI
Kind regards, Graham.
Hi Graham,
IMO the wood screw is not large enough. I think you need a reasonably large body that can carry a reasonable amount of charge at a reasonable voltage. The larger a body the greater its self capacitance. IMO the screw would have too small a self capacitance, but try it anyway. I like your Van de Graaff, that should do it perfectly. If that machine you were debunking actually actually sparked across to the electrode maybe it would work. You need sharp points on the disc electrodes almost mating with sharp points on the fixed ones. Maybe a modification of that would suffice.
Smudge
How about these ?
Brass M 8 domehead nuts.
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.01.09, 16:28:26
A quick search on electrostatic motors reveals many designs using Coulomb forces but none of them use spark gap commutation. Now either my brain has done something silly in working out what charge the isolated electrode gets via the spark as it passes the fixed one, or this simple idea has remained hidden in plain sight for centuries. Maybe not very practical due to tip erosion, but even that could be overcome with appropriate design.
Smudge
The spark-gap commutated Enhanced Franklin ES motor (powered by the TKDirod) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqf3bUL4YqE
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.01.09, 16:40:45
Dear Cyril.
Many thanks for the new paper. O0
With regard to the soldering gun I was thinking on the lines of a variable frequency input from a power amplifier not specifically at 50 Hz.
I wonder if TinselKoala has dabbled in this area? Electrostatic, that is.
Kind regards, Graham.
Indeed I have.
Measuring mini Van de Graaff machine voltage using laboratory ES voltmeter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eogpGHFgV6E
Van de Graaff oil jet demo 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2lTeGH-lws
Construction and operation of a small VDG machine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3pgtYQo7VU (part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xcxk0WKo9o (part 2)
TKDirod: (capable of over 60 kV)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxEpSX2Hd54
TKIDirod, corona motor, NE2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpemKuf6X_c
MagLev ES motor w/ Arduino tachometer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVfw-TeJ9r4
TKBonetti Machine: (capable of over 300 kV)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fWasxYQZZw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYGFqkXjwZc
Quantum Gravity Nullification (from alt.snakeoil):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-aP7sk48jw
Even at relatively "low" HV, such as over 600 v, any sharp points or roughness or irregularities will spray charge (ionizing air gas molecules) and will limit voltage buildup. To get actual EHV you need to pay careful attention to smoothness. Also, conductive paths formed by moisture and dust on non-conducting surfaces will kill your charge. Black plastics are often colored black with carbon-black.... and are sufficiently conductive to kill charge buildup. Wood -- good if it is _completely_ dry, better if it is wax-impregnated. Delrin (white) = excellent material. Acrylic (perspex, plexiglass) is great. Polycarbonate (Lexan) also good but generally too flexible for, eg, Bonetti disks. Bead chain with large beads makes excellent conductors ("wires") for EHV. And you would be surprised at how strong ES attraction-repulsion can be. Many many times stronger than gravity.
Thanks TK for those links. Grum, hold fire, there is more coming soon. The whole v dot A electrokinetic potential thing is mired in controversy and might not lead anywhere. But what isn't in doubt is the Electric field of the earth that can be as high as 300V/m if my memory serves me correctly. So an electrostatic motor along the lines I have been describing could gain an anomalous amount of energy from that source. I am writing a paper on it to include the math. What I realize immediately as I do this is the tiny quantity of commutated charge received by practical sized spheres or semi-spheres based on their self capacitance, at practical high DC voltage drive. So my thoughts turn to achieving motional force in the earth's E field from much greater charge which means much greater capacity than the self value. I think this may be possible using semi spheres that are capacitively connected to a conductive disc where that capacitance is many times greater than the self because of that coupling using a narrow gap filled with dielectric. Maybe that dielectric is simply the glue that attaches the semi-sphere to the disc. The spherical outer electrode travels through the potential difference supplied to the two fixed electrodes plus the potential difference supplied by the Earth's E field, thus transporting its charge through that combined potential, whereas the opposite charge on the other side of the dielectric is continually at the zero potential of the disc. Looking at the Innova Tehno electrodes they could well be capacitively connected. So we have the rotating disc earthed and the HV DC drive symmetrically +/- about earth. With the Earth being negatively charged its E field points vertically downward, hence out two fixed spheres have the top one positive and the bottom one negative so that the disc rotates though the additively combined field. We have an electrostatic motor that is OU, it requires mechanical drive to get it going and HV DC supply to keep it going. We drive it with an electric motor that doubles as a starting motor and a generator. We have a small battery for starting that drives the electric motor/generator and at the same time drives the HV DC generator. Then once it is going the battery is disconnected and replaced with a load, the output from the motor/generator driving both the load and the HV DC generator.
Smudge
TK is that your hand getting so close to the Bonetti wheel adjustments? You have courage!
Attached is a pic of the cover of my High Voltage bible. I'm sure there are also other good reads out there, but this is my favorite. Recommendation: don't let a copy escape you.
I tend to favor the simple design of Felici or Sames machines, but have never built one so kudos to you on the Bonetti.
Smudge:
While I appreciate the rigorous math treatments, perhaps others such as myself are more visual or intuitive and going a little deeper with practical explanations would be easier for us that struggle with the math.
Recently I have been downloading and plodding through whatever I could find on the Magnetic Vector Potential and this was the simplest explanation I could find:
Quote1. A (uniform) magnetic field B in the z-direction corresponds to a vector potential A that rotates about the z-axis with magnitude A = B0•r'/2 (with r' the displacement from the z-axis, not from the origin—obviously!). So that gives you the A inside of a solenoid. The magnitude is A = (1/2)•n•I•r'/ε0c2, so A is proportional with r'.
2. Outside of the solenoid, A's magnitude (i.e. A) is inversely proportional to the distance r', and it's given by the formula: A = (1/2)•n•I•a2/ε0c2•r'. That's, of course, consistent with the magnetic field diminishing with distance there. But remember: contrary to what you've been taught or what you often read, it is not zero. It's only near zero if r' >> a.
Is this correct? Is there a simpler way to describe it?
Here is another article (http://blazelabs.com/e-exp10.asp) for Smudge
Quote from: ION on 2017.01.10, 18:15:38
Smudge:
While I appreciate the rigorous math treatments, perhaps others such as myself are more visual or intuitive and going a little deeper with practical explanations would be easier for us that struggle with the math.
Recently I have been downloading and plodding through whatever I could find on the Magnetic Vector Potential and this was the simplest explanation I could find:
Is this correct? Is there a simpler way to describe it?
Well that tells you the magnitude of the
A field and the geometry of the field lines (concentric circles) within and outside a core, but it doesn't tell you exactly what the
A field is. There is a vector identity called the Curl, which expresses a form of spatial non-uniformity. It expresses how a vector changes magnitude with distance as as you move away at right angle to it. which often (but not always) results in the vector curling round to form closed loops. Quite often vector identities result in the formation of another vector, perhaps the best known being vector multiplication which we do when we use Fleming's RH and LH rules using our fingers and thumb as the vectors. You could also do the same thing with the Curl function using say the first finger to point along the vector, the thumb to represent magnitude of spatial change at right angles to the vector, and the second finger to represent the resulting Curl vector. A magnetic
B field (Webers/m
2) is defined as the Curl of the
A vector, i.e.
B = Curl(
A).
The
A vector actually comes from moving charges. A moving point charge Q radiates an
A field that everywhere points along the velocity direction and has a magnitude that reduces with distance r from the charge and is given by
A=munought*Q*
v/(4*pi*r). (Over long distances you also have to take account of the propagation time because the radiation travels at light velocity). Thus taking a radial space increment away from and at right angles to the velocity (thumb), first finger along the velocity also
A field direction, then the Curl points along the second finger direction which results in the B field forming concentric circles.
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.01.10, 12:08:42
The whole v dot A electrokinetic potential thing is mired in controversy
So what?
The AB Effect proves that there is sth happening in the center of a toroid so even where the E and B fields are zero, potentials still exist and they cause real effects...there are just no gradients.
Quote from: verpies on 2017.01.11, 07:29:28
So what?
The AB Effect proves that there is sth happening in the center of a toroid so even where the E and B fields are zero, potentials still exist and they cause real effects...there are just no gradients.
Well there you have the controversy. You say there are no gradients, yet various authors have argued that there
are gradients. And then there is the argument when dealing with
grad(
v dot
A) as to whether you neglect some velocity terms, or as Culwick says "if
grad operates only on
A, not
v". It is down to experiments to determine who is correct, and since the presence or absence of the
grad terms determine whether we get OU or not, then such experiments are of interest to this forum.
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.01.11, 08:39:06
Well there you have the controversy. You say there are no gradients, yet various authors have argued that there are gradients. And then there is the argument when dealing with grad(v dot A) as to whether you neglect some velocity terms, or as Culwick says "if grad operates only on A, not v". It is down to experiments to determine who is correct, and since the presence or absence of the grad terms determine whether we get OU or not, then such experiments are of interest to this forum.
Smudge
Nice accurate summation of the situation!
I am one of those authors arguing for a frame of reference definition of the same mass in the same space at the same time, in order to create a temporary gradient imbalance, this being critical to achieving COP>1 performance.. or not.
Of course this is in a different 'field'.. ;D
If the definition of mass occupying a space volume is critical to gradient creation, the resultant static scalar potential energy to vector mass kinetic energy switch must be used externally to the originating system, or be re-absorbed internally within the system during the working cycle.
This position forces me to argue that 'work done' is a third frame of reference, occupying a different space to the other two (which occupy the same space at the same time and are dependent on specific definition).
This 'work done' in my model can be stored by transformation into electricity (available for use externally to the system), which is not a fundamental state of matter.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.01.10, 03:13:39
And you would be surprised at how strong ES attraction-repulsion can be. Many many times stronger than gravity.
Of interest now is what does the v dot A electrokinetic potential do to the equal but opposite charges Q in a charged capacitor that is moving at velocity v. If Q*potential represents some energy residing with the charge, how does that energy manifest itself? If the charges are wiggling about at Fermi velocity do their Fermi velocities change? What about the effect of the A field on those Fermi velocities? Do we get greater Fermi velocity in one direction compared to the other? If the capacitor plates are parallel to the A field do we get a forced migration of charge along the plates so that positive charge goes one way and negative charge the other? Since only electrons can move. the positive ions being fixed in the lattice, do we get this migration on only the negative plate? If so does this separation of charges represent an effective change in capacitor value? Does the Innova Tehnu machine charge capacitance on the revolving disc at one value of capacitance then discharge it at another value? Or does that migration of negative charge provide the sideways displacement needed to break an otherwise symmetrical torque waveform, leading to a net positive boost torque. Food for thought there.
Smudge
Quote from: ION on 2017.01.10, 18:15:38
TK is that your hand getting so close to the Bonetti wheel adjustments? You have courage!
Attached is a pic of the cover of my High Voltage bible. I'm sure there are also other good reads out there, but this is my favorite. Recommendation: don't let a copy escape you.
I tend to favor the simple design of Felici or Sames machines, but have never built one so kudos to you on the Bonetti.
(snip)
Somewhat OT but for the benefit of those seeking EHV from electrostatic machines:
Yes, my fingers are imparting the initial slight charge by friction to the disks to get the machine started. There are other ways but this is the simplest way I have discovered. One must know just where to touch, though! I think a beta-particle radioactive source placed in the right spot would also work great for starting the "influence" or induction process.
For anyone interested in EVH generation I can strongly recommend the TK-Bonetti design as being superior to other designs such as Pidgeon. I've made a couple of improvements in design so that the machine is capable of more voltage and current output per unit volume than just about any other design.
In the attached photo, note the position of the neutral structures and the output combs, as well as the distributed corona. While it may look like the corona is coming from the combs onto the disks, it is actually the other way around: the disks are turning in the direction such that the corona comes off the _disks_ and onto the neutral and output combs. Also, in the area at top and bottom of the disk pair, a very interesting phenomenon occurs _between_ the two disks (barely visible in this photo at the top of the machine). A strange sparkling scintillation happens between the disks in this area between the neutral combs on opposite sides of the disk pair, not corona but something else. The disks are also repelled and attracted to each other in various places around the machine. This makes it difficult to use polycarbonate plastic for the disks, as it is too flexible and the thin disks warp crazily under both electrostatic and aerodynamic loads when in operation. They warp and will crash into each other! So use acrylic plastic which is stiffer.
Another thing that is important is that the motors used to drive the disks be "non-cogging" or rather freely turning when not powered. This will allow you to see what happens when you turn the motors off and allow the machine to coast to a stop in a charged state. Very interesting! But don't let your motor shafts and disk hubs be of any conductive material -- the center of the machine is a bad place for anything conductive as the HV will short out across the centers of the disks if it can.
The modifications that make the most difference (other than general cleanup and elimination of sharp edges) are the variable positioning of the neutral structures and the output combs. Most builds that you will see of the basic Bonetti design (and in fact all Wimshurst and other rotating disk machines I've seen) actually have the neutral structures and output combs fixed in non-optimum positions; for better performance they need to be made so that they can be moved independently, as in my design. The machine pictured in the attached photo has disks that are approx. 300 mm in diameter and it easily produces 270 mm sparks in rapid sequence between large spherical terminals. Look that up in your spark-gap voltage tables!
I enhance the capacitance of my machines by putting a stack of HV doorknob capacitors with barium or strontium titanate dielectric across the output prime conductors. Water-filled Leyden jars work well but are so -- last century! And also wet and sloshy.
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.01.10, 12:08:42
Thanks TK for those links. Grum, hold fire, there is more coming soon. The whole v dot A electrokinetic potential thing is mired in controversy and might not lead anywhere. But what isn't in doubt is the Electric field of the earth that can be as high as 300V/m if my memory serves me correctly. So an electrostatic motor along the lines I have been describing could gain an anomalous amount of energy from that source. I am writing a paper on it to include the math. What I realize immediately as I do this is the tiny quantity of commutated charge received by practical sized spheres or semi-spheres based on their self capacitance, at practical high DC voltage drive. So my thoughts turn to achieving motional force in the earth's E field from much greater charge which means much greater capacity than the self value. I think this may be possible using semi spheres that are capacitively connected to a conductive disc where that capacitance is many times greater than the self because of that coupling using a narrow gap filled with dielectric. Maybe that dielectric is simply the glue that attaches the semi-sphere to the disc. The spherical outer electrode travels through the potential difference supplied to the two fixed electrodes plus the potential difference supplied by the Earth's E field, thus transporting its charge through that combined potential, whereas the opposite charge on the other side of the dielectric is continually at the zero potential of the disc. Looking at the Innova Tehno electrodes they could well be capacitively connected. So we have the rotating disc earthed and the HV DC drive symmetrically +/- about earth. With the Earth being negatively charged its E field points vertically downward, hence out two fixed spheres have the top one positive and the bottom one negative so that the disc rotates though the additively combined field. We have an electrostatic motor that is OU, it requires mechanical drive to get it going and HV DC supply to keep it going. We drive it with an electric motor that doubles as a starting motor and a generator. We have a small battery for starting that drives the electric motor/generator and at the same time drives the HV DC generator. Then once it is going the battery is disconnected and replaced with a load, the output from the motor/generator driving both the load and the HV DC generator.
Smudge
I had the idea some years ago to replace the "sectors" on Wimshurst disks with HV doorknob capacitors for the same reasons, but I never actually built such a machine. It would be interesting to try it. And Oleg Jefimenko made electret-rotor motors that are powered nicely by the Earth's E field. His book on electrostatics is required reading for anyone interested in these phenomena.
However, the Innova Tehno machine is clearly a hoax, constructed of a few Red Herrings, just like the Methernitha Testatika. (Remember, the best Red Herrings are real fish, even if they point you in the wrong direction ultimately.) Real ES generators, like Bonetti/Wimshurst/Pidgeon/Dirod, will indeed "motor" when charged and allowed to turn ... but turn in the _opposite direction_ from the way they turn when driven and generating. But you need careful builds in order to see this phenomenon: low bearing friction, drive motors that can be disconnected mechanically or that have very low friction and no magnetic cogging, careful EHV construction that does not allow charge to escape readily, etc.
@TK,
The problem with using the Earth's E field is the screening effect of buildings. What intrigues me about the Earth's A field is that it doesn't get screened. I have been doing more research and found a paper that presents the vector math in a different way, putting a new slant on things. I am writing a paper on this, taking ION's comments on board by presenting the math with simple to understand concepts. I think this could lead to an OU machine since it offers the source of the anomalous energy being the spinning high temperature Fe plasma that is the Earth's core. If I am right that spin is slowed down slightly as we draw this anomalous power from our machine. Not good for the longevity of the Earth's magnetic field over a time span of thousands/hundreds of years! But maybe in that time frame man could do with the A field what he is trying to do with Carbon emissions, get some sort of feedback to become A field neutral.
Smudge
NO!
The best Red herrings are smoked...... Kippers!
Mmmm.... I like Kippers. :)
Joking apart.
The " Door knobs " would increase capacitance ? Area rather than Mass ?
What about laminated segments ? Several metal plates stacked with dielectric ?
So.... these devices, if properly built can motor ? Has a motor/generator ever been tried ?
I'm game.....
Another dedicated thread perhaps ?
Cheers Graham.
Purely electric motors are nice because they give the designer a lot of time to react, since the energy stored in capacitances does not leak out as fast as it does from magnetic inductors (non-superconductive ones).
I like electric motors, that are based on dielectric slabs/sheets being pulled into the space between two charged metal plates.
P.S.
I like pickled herring.
OK, here we go with the latest revelation. It appears that the simple expedient of placing or removing charge from say an isolated sphere can summon up a force impulse from the Earth's magnetic vector potential A field. If that force does work, i.e. the charge moves during the impulse, the energy gained can be put to good use. The source of that energy is the moving Fe ions within the Earth's molten core. Those moving ions create the A field and the moving-changing charge radiates an E field that slows down those ions. The ions in the core and the moving-changing charge at the surface are coupled by near field radiation to form a closed system.
The attached paper suggest a simple experiment that could verify the existence of this force impulse. Perhaps Grumage could perform this experiment using his Van de Graaff generator. I also attach two other papers referenced.
Smudge
edit, third paper was omitted, now added
Here is some required reading http://bado-shanai.net/Map%20of%20Physics/mopElectrotonic.htm (http://bado-shanai.net/Map%20of%20Physics/mopElectrotonic.htm)
The magnetic vector potential A field is also called the electrotonic field, and it confers hidden linear momentum onto electric charge. Note the reference to Feynman's Carousel where the sudden removal of that hidden momentum results in Feynman's carousel rotating. In that case the A field from the coil current forms concentric circles so it imparts hidden angular momentum, and that loss of hidden angular momentum, by conservation laws, causes the thing to rotate. So my spheres in the uniform A field have hidden linear momentum in their ions and in their mobile conduction electrons, and in the uncharged state these two momentums are equal and opposite. The removal of some electrons takes away their hidden momentum which "unshields" that quantity of linear momentum hidden in the lattice. By conservation of momentum the lattice exhibits a linear force and it will move.
Smudge
Hi Cyril.
Will these do ?
I have over 130 of them..... please don't ask ??!! ;)
Kind regards, Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.01.16, 16:58:18
Hi Cyril.
Will these do ?
I have over 130 of them..... please don't ask ??!! ;)
Kind regards, Graham.
They seem to be about 6 cm diameter and have a surface thickness of about 1.5 mm. They look brassy so I calculate a mass of 142 gm. Their self capacitance is about 1.7pF so if charged to 100 KV I reckon you should see a sudden velocity of about 2 mm/s, which should be observable. Go for it!
Seem like you are well stocked for the next stage putting some onto a rotating disc :).
Smudge
Hi Cyril.
We went for it.... nothing to report....
The connection wires were jumping about but no discernible movement of the sphere was seen.
As a footnote it took nearly 20 minutes of drying on the stove before we got any life from the V d G and unlike on other occasions where 2 " sparks could be drawn from the 8 " dia collector the best achievable was just over 1/2 " !!
Too humid perhaps ?
Kind regards, Graham.
Addendum.
How about an inflated balloon covered with Aluminium foil ? I re read your Pdf, you suggested a sphere of 100mm diameter. Our spheres are only 50 mm diameter and weigh 55 grams.
Disappointing but could be the humidity is the problem in keeping the voltage too low. Roll on Summer!!
On the other hand maybe it will never work :(, it seemed too good to be true.
Smudge
Chet, here's Fig 6.
Perhaps a large styrofoam ball painted with metallic paint or graphite rubbed evenly onto the surface might deliver high capacitance and low moving mass, making the effect more detectable (if it indeed exists).
I got my sums wrong by a factor of 10 for Grum's spheres so the effect would have needed a microscope to detect the movement! Yes it needs very low mass and the balloon or styrofoam ideas are good. I remember using something called Aquadag to paint an electrode onto glass, there was also something called Oildag. That was 67 years ago!
Smudge
For EHT you could use a smoking candle flame to cover the surface with C4. It's lightweight and may serve the purpose.
A little heavier is the old LP record anti static spray.
Heavier still is those metallic balloons, I've used these on a Tesla coil and it several the purpose.
A few ideas.
Dear All.
As an aside, does anyone know if I can " gee up " the output from my V d G ?
I seem to remember reading about applying a high potential to the bottom brush?
Ideas?
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.01.16, 16:58:18
I have over 130 of them..... please don't ask ??!! ;)
No explanation needed ...you have brass balls.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.01.16, 19:59:56
As a footnote it took nearly 20 minutes of drying on the stove before we got any life from the V d G and unlike on other occasions where 2 " sparks could be drawn from the 8 " dia collector the best achievable was just over 1/2 " !!
Too humid perhaps ?
Yes, humidity is the problem but not in a way you think.
The humidity aids in depositing and binding conductive air-pollutants to the Van de Graaf belt. These pollutants cause charges to leak and the belt becoming inefficient.
Wash the belt first with copious amounts of deionized water and then with small amount of a hygroscopic solvent that does not dissolve the belt. An
absolute ethanol (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ratR1ngcWss) comes to mind here. Verify that the solvents are really deionized with an ohmmeter set to MΩ or GΩ scale. Protect the belt from dust when drying it (dust can be conductive)
Quote from: szaxx on 2017.01.17, 12:09:33
Heavier still is those metallic balloons, I've used these on a Tesla coil and it several the purpose.
Mylar balloons are not so heavy - they float in the air with helium inside.
The metallic layer is very conductive but you have to melt away the protective plastic layer to make a galvanic connection to it.
Smudge, thanks for jogging my memory regarding AcquaDAG. It has been many decades since I used the stuff, mainly to touch up scratches on the outer coating of a serviced CRT, and which formed the ground of a large capacitor formed by the same stuff used as an inner coating on the CRT.
QuoteAquadag is a trade name for a water-based colloidal graphite coating commonly used in cathode ray tubes (CRTs). It is manufactured by Acheson Industries, a subsidiary of ICI. The name is a shortened form of "Aqueous Deflocculated Acheson Graphite", but has become a generic term for conductive graphite coatings used in vacuum tubes. Other related products include Oildag, Electrodag and Molydag. The product names are often printed with DAG in upper case (e.g. AquaDAG). It is used as an electrically conductive coating on insulating surfaces, and as a lubricant.
So I guess this could be made by mixing graphite and water, with something added to keep the graphite in suspension. Candle soot could be tried as szaxx recommended.
QuoteAquadag consists of a dispersion of colloidal graphite in distilled water.[1][2] It is provided in concentrated paste form and is usually diluted with distilled water to a desired consistency before application. It can be applied by brushing, swabbing, spraying, or dipping, after which the surface is dried, leaving a layer of pure graphite.
After drying the coating is electrically conductive. Its resistance and other electrical properties vary with degree of dilution and application method. When diluted 1:1 and applied by brush its resistance is:
Air-dried ~800 ohms per square
Heated to 200 °C ~500 ohms per square
Heated to 300 °C ~20–30 ohms per square
Quotes from Wiipedia
Thanks for the memories!
Graham
Yes, I have seen a small electrostatic supply of a few kV to aid charging the low side of the belt on these machinesmainly in construction projects and on large machines, but I have practically no firsthand experience using this method. This is usually called the "controllable spray voltage". Not sure if they are supplied on smaller machines. Are you certain that your machine does not already have one? Check in with TK on this one.
Quote from: verpies on 2017.01.17, 13:36:08
No explanation needed ...you have brass balls.
Not wishing to brag !! ;)
I'm fairly adept at the " Art " of metal spinning, this one however was done at a local firm.
As an aside, attached is a photo of the UK's largest V d G..... Built fairly locally to me.... On the site where Lewis Carrol sat and wrote Alice through the looking glass.
Interestingly there has been many a " Tale " of cars swapping places mysteriously on the car park when they were operational, spooky eh?
Cheers Graham.
Update.
After a thorough overnight drying on the stove and taking Verpies advice, cleaning the belt with an alcohol swab. I'm now seeing 40mm sparks.
Trying the experiment with the 5" sphere we found several leakage spots along the suspension so were only getting 1/4" sparks at the sphere proper.
Solutions, anyone ?
Cheers Graham.
Ok, I'll keep posting my advice on EHV static machines. Here are some thoughts based on what I'm reading here in the last few posts.
1. _ANY_ sharp points, thin wires, excessive roughness etc on voltage-charged parts will prevent buildup of EHV because such areas result in high field concentrations and will spray off corona -- often invisibly. Smoothness is critical. Even voltages as low as 600V can produce invisible corona discharge from sharp edges or points.
2. Moist air is not actually bad in itself; I've done electrostatic demonstrations in 100 percent RH with rainstorms outside. But moist air leads to invisible moisture adsorbed onto surfaces, particularly dusty surfaces, and this moisture will be conductive at EHV and will short out your machines, preventing charge buildup.
3. Once a conductive path forms, then allowing the machine to discharge along that conductive path, especially on plastic surfaces, causes an invisible carbon trail to form on the surface, which of course remains conductive enough to prevent charge buildup.
4. On VDG machines, the top spherical capacity has a sharp edge where the support column enters. To prevent this sharp edge from killing your charge buildup by corona spray, manufacturers of VDG machines use a "re-entrant" geometry, where this edge is forced up into the sphere itself, where the "faraday bucket" effect will cause the edge to be at a low relative potential and hence not be spraying corona. The only places a VDG machine should have sharp points are the "brushes" (which really aren't brushes because they really should not actually contact the belt.) Don't neglect the bottom enclosure part either; this can be connected to a good Earth ground like a cold water pipe (metal of course!), but if "floating" it too should have geometry and smoothness like the top.
So to get the best performance from your machines:
1. They must be _clean_ and _dry_. No dust must be present, and you can dry them effectively with an ordinary blow-dryer, carefully directing warm air over all surfaces inside and out. Careful not to melt parts! This will work even in high humidity but may need to be repeated when the parts have again adsorbed moisture from the air. I don't think I'd recommend putting the whole thing on a stove to dry it. Of course if you have a temperature-controlled drying oven big enough to contain the whole machine... that's a different story. But just use a blow-dryer; the warm airflow helps to evaporate moisture at the same time it warms the surfaces, and you can direct the airflow easily, like down the inside of the column, etc.
2. If you have invisible carbon trails caused by unintended sparking across surfaces, you may even need to replace the part, or abrade the surface followed by re-smoothing in order to get rid of the trail.
3. Thin wires, whether insulated or not, are not good for conducting your EHV charge to your load objects. Remember, at voltages of tens or hundreds of kV, the only effective insulation is distance. (Ordinary insulating materials are practically useless. Glass and smooth ceramic surfaces, like standoffs, etc. are the first things to accumulate and adsorb moisture from the air and will rapidly become conductive in humid environments.) Use bead-chain with large balls for your flexible "wires" to make connections from the machine to the load. Their resistance is negligible at EHV, and their effective diameter, being much larger than thin wire, reduces corona loss due to small curvature radius of the thin wire. Bead chain is also very flexible even in larger sizes.
4. If you use alcohol to clean parts, be especially careful not to get it on acrylic plastic parts. It will cause crazing, cracking, premature structural failure, and the cracks can even become low-resistance pathways for unintended discharge. Yes, on VDG machines the belt must be kept clean, as it will become conductive itself due to dirt and carbon deposits and will limit or kill charge buildup. Sparking along the belt is a common fault that will of course prevent charge buildup on the top capacity.
5. If your VDG top capacity does not have the re-entrant geometry at the hole, you can still help prevent or limit discharge by the use of "field shapers" around the column, as I illustrate in my VDG tutorials:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3pgtYQo7VU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xcxk0WKo9o
As to the issue of boosting VDG machines by spraying charge onto the belt from a conventional HV supply, yes, that works. Also increasing the capacitance of the "belt" works, see the Pelletron for how this is done.
In several of my demonstrations linked earlier you can see me using ping-pong balls that have been spray-painted with a nickel-containing conductive paint (grey). This stuff is readily available in electronic supply houses as MG Chemicals "Super Shield" :
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/emi-and-rfi-shielding/other-coating-systems/super-shield-nickel-841
I would not expect this to work on styrofoam balls without prior surface sealing, though; it will probably dissolve the styrofoam. The surface of styrofoam balls available at, eg, craft stores is too rough to be usable anyway. And things like Mylar balloons, with very thin metallic coatings, are also not really suitable because every spark will vaporize a pinpoint of the coating where the spark originates/terminates.
There are several companies that supply re-entrant, spun aluminum spheres for VDG machines. You can also improvise: I was using Chinese steel bowls from a restaurant supply house in Toronto, and I even found a bunch of chrome-plated steel baby-moon hubcaps at Active Surplus that were excellent performers (although not nearly as good as spheres with re-entrant holes.) I used hole saws and the lathe to cut the column holes in the bowls and hubcaps, followed by sanding with emery cloth to make the cut edges rounded and smooth.
If your load is not allowing charge to accumulate and voltage to build, use a small spark-gap to keep the load disconnected until the machine has built up enough charge to jump the gap and thus connect the load. You can see me using this technique in some of my videos. (Dirod + neon bank, for example: there is a little spark gap built into one end of the neon bank.)
Dear TinselKoala.
Many thanks for your detailed and informative post. O0
Our stove is water jacketed so it never gets to temperatures that would cause any damage, cozy warm.
The top sphere does indeed have the " re entrant " geometry you have written about.
So.... how should I proceed? It became obvious, in the dark that there were many leakages along the thin wire, how about the wire used to convey the energy from a Piezo igniter?
For Cyril.
The 5" dia Brass sphere weighs just over half a Kilo, too heavy?
I was hoping that if a rhythm could be established we might see a cumulative effect and start to see a swing?
Is the sphere shape important ? What about an empty Beer/Soda can?
Kind regards, Graham.
TK
This bead wire I see you using in your Vids , can you offer up a source/vendor ?
I looked around and only see cheap "bling" in my searches.
can we use "bling chain" [My "T" Type ?}
Also The Nickel spray is a gem of an idea
link again here
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/emi-and-rfi-shielding/other-coating-systems/super-shield-nickel-841
we have another project which needs Nickel coating and it will be interesting to see just how effective this product is in that application.
contacting vendors in My area and elsewhere ATM for price quotes.
http://www.ballchain.com/chain_sizes.html
I used to get it from a hardware store in Alameda CA where they kept the larger sizes in stock for some reason.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.01.18, 17:46:13
http://www.ballchain.com/chain_sizes.html
I used to get it from a hardware store in Alameda CA where they kept the larger sizes in stock for some reason.
Here in the UK we can buy lengths of ballchain for bathplugs.
Graham, the shape does not matter as long as you follow TK's recommendations about sharp edges and sharp radii.
Smudge
Dear TinselKoala.
Will this do ?
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjDmIe7wM7RAhWMBBoKHVKSAYAQFggdMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fitm%2F2-Metres-Silver-Plated-Metal-Ball-Chain-1-5mm-Ball-%2F310609137442&usg=AFQjCNHyS5LoWuCDYoVaWMvMV1F5zMiT4Q&sig2=c5B6qp5gRrpjes1kS35cyw
Cheers Graham.
Here's my Van de Graaff generator..... Alongside our power outage standby light.... All fuelled up and ready to go at a moments notice.
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.01.18, 18:52:34
Graham, the shape does not matter as long as you follow TK's recommendations about sharp edges and sharp radii.
An interesting point that students of Lord Kelvin's Thunderstorm appreciate. Some shapes are more efficient than others though..
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.01.19, 15:18:51
Here's my Van de Graaff generator.....
The sphere in the VdG is considered optimal for focusing charge potential.
So an undesirable charge leakage in the system infrastructure is prevented in order to create an overload in a tiny volume of space, focusing the energy. The spark ionizes the path of least resistance through the surrounding medium.
The Kelvin generator drops liquid mass through the Earth's gas, in a gravitational field picking up a charge as it is accelerated through space. This works anywhere on the planet, if it was picking up the charge from the A field I would expect it's performance to change as the position of the apparatus on the planet's surface changed, because the gravitational field was inline with A field, or 90 degrees out.
Quote from: evolvingape on 2017.01.19, 16:44:47
The Kelvin generator drops liquid mass through the Earth's gas, in a gravitational field picking up a charge as it is accelerated through space. This works anywhere on the planet, if it was picking up the charge from the A field I would expect it's performance to change as the position of the apparatus on the planet's surface changed, because the gravitational field was inline with A field, or 90 degrees out.
The gravitational field (radial to the Earth sphere) is always at 90 degrees to the A field, it can never be in line. The A field everywhere runs horizontal W to E.
Smudge
Van de Graaff " Gee up " >:-)
I have a broken plasma lamp, ( Glass broken ). Could I use the generator to spray onto the belt to increase output ? HV diode needed ?
Cheers graham.
Ok....
A very loud silence to my previous post??
Well. My " bling " Silver plated ball chain arrived today, all 2 metres of it.
I would like to report that by using my " Earth " sphere from the V d G in place of the Brass ones I'm seeing a ball at rest with the machine switched off to an ever so slight East/West swing with the collector cracking over to ground rhythmically.
I'm still suffering corona losses from the chain but in one area only, dirty perhaps ?
A tentative " YES " perhaps? We'll see....
Kind regards, Graham.
Grum
as requested
Smokey started a tutorial thread on his Motor
http://overunity.com/17100/sm0ky2s-modified-voss-machine/msg498683/#new
he's having issues ATM with posting Pics and such [using the phone to post is ruff]
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.01.23, 20:34:19
A very loud silence to my previous post??
Not in my case, it is a silence in response to this:
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.01.19, 19:53:33
The gravitational field (radial to the Earth sphere) is always at 90 degrees to the A field, it can never be in line. The A field everywhere runs horizontal W to E.
I am thinking because I am confused.. and that is unpleasant and silent.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.01.23, 20:34:19
Ok....
A very loud silence to my previous post??
Well. My " bling " Silver plated ball chain arrived today, all 2 metres of it.
I would like to report that by using my " Earth " sphere from the V d G in place of the Brass ones I'm seeing a ball at rest with the machine switched off to an ever so slight East/West swing with the collector cracking over to ground rhythmically.
I'm still suffering corona losses from the chain but in one area only, dirty perhaps ?
A tentative " YES " perhaps? We'll see....
Kind regards, Graham.
I would have suggested getting an ordinary brass ball-chain, but with larger diameter balls. 1.5 mm is pretty small. The "effective diameter" should be large in order to reduce the field concentrations which leak charge.
Your chain may have a rough spot, sharp edge or point in the area where it is spraying corona. Look at the setup running in a dark room, identify the leaky area, and then carefully inspect the chain in that area for roughness or sharp points. When you've corrected this spray area, some other place on your machine will then become the area of greatest field concentration and then you can improve that area. Eventually your machine/experiment may have discharge areas in random locations that move around. This will mean that you have done all that you can do and your machine is "equalized" in terms of field concentrations and is reaching the highest voltage possible under your environmental conditions.
Then you can think about enclosing the whole thing in a gas-tight container and pumping up 10 atmospheres of CO
2 or SF
6 gas pressure to further insulate it and reach even higher voltages.... >:-)
As far as identifying the motion of a charged, suspended sphere when EHV is present/absent, you have to be very careful. Charged bodies can develop quite substantial attraction/repulsion forces even at surprisingly low voltages. For example in an experiment we did at my former laboratory we were able to get a heavy bicycle wheel-sized rotor to turn with only 500 volts of charge potential between the 1-inch diameter sparking drive electrodes. This really surprised us as we were expecting to need tens of kV in order to get things moving. So you can easily get a suspended, charged sphere to jerk back and forth simply because it is attracted/repelled from objects in the environment that you didn't think were actually part of your experiment at all !!
Or you may have created an "ion thruster" if you have some unnoticed sharp or rough area that can spray corona invisibly at unexpectedly low potentials.
:D
I accept everything TK says, he is obviously skilled in all this very high voltage stuff. While encouraged by Grum's tentative results it will take some painstaking work to establish whether it really is the wanted force being seen. All I can offer at the moment is to minimise the mass so as to increase the movement and that would need the making of another sphere. Also to try different locations to see whether the movement is always E-W. However it should be noted that current flowing down or up the suspension chain in the presence of the horizontal component of Earth's magnetic B field will also induce E-W motion (Fleming's LH rule). So maybe a better approach is to look at a pair of spheres, one at each end of an insulated rod, with the thing balanced on a pivot that allows it to rotate in the horizontal plane. If one sphere is charged positively while the other is charged negatively the application or removal of charge should generate a torque impulse if the rod lies N-S, and not do so if the rod lies E-W. However we still have to consider the conductors supplying the charge and the influence of the Earth's B field vertical and horizontal components. If the conductors supplying the charge lie along the B field then there should be no force on them when they carry current. See attached image
Smudge
To be frank, I'm a little annoyed......
You published your paper on the 16 th of January, I asked about the chain 5 days ago and today we read the chain is too small and ionic forces unseen might skew the results....
A simple post earlier could have saved a lot of time.
I'm unable to pursue this avenue at the moment due to a severe chest infection that came on rather suddenly overnight. Perhaps TK could provide some pointers for your latest idea?
As my V d G is a very sturdy construction perhaps the pivot could be made off the centre of the collector?
Grum.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.01.24, 15:47:15
To be frank, I'm a little annoyed......
You published your paper on the 16 th of January, I asked about the chain 5 days ago and today we read the chain is too small and ionic forces unseen might skew the results....
Sorry if I've annoyed you. The ballchain came from TK, he is the expert on high voltage phenomena. I would never have thought of ballchain I thought a simple suspension wire would do the trick.
Quote
A simple post earlier could have saved a lot of time.
I have only just realized the implications of the force on the vertical wire, had I thought this through earlier I would have suggested the alternative scheme.
Quote
I'm unable to pursue this avenue at the moment due to a severe chest infection that came on rather suddenly overnight. Perhaps TK could provide some pointers for your latest idea?
As my V d G is a very sturdy construction perhaps the pivot could be made off the centre of the collector?
That's not a bad idea providing only one sphere actually gets the charge from the V d G (the other sphere just acts as a counterbalance). The connection could go through the pivot and along one radius arm. But I am thinking small wire again and that produces corona. Maybe a ballchain inside a plastic tube (with appropriate counter weight of course).
Hope your infection clears up quickly, some of the infections in this part of Yorkshire are lasting for weeks.
Regards
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
My apologies, I'm feeling a little " rough " no, my comments were directed to TK. His expertise in this area is far greater than anyone, I felt a timely comment could have saved us a lot of effort.
As for the chain, well there are many " beady eyes " here..... probably end up draped around a neck or wrist !! ;)
Kind regards, Graham.
Tinsel has very serious commitments elsewhere , Time is a commodity which can be hard to come by at times.
So at least we have learned a bit more [a very big bit] about the proper path forward.
Grum your efforts are tremendous and I know it gets harder to do as time goes by , hopefully the future will have some brighter spots !!
Sorry to disappoint... and I don't log onto this site every day.
But I did say this when I first brought it up:
QuoteUse bead-chain with large balls for your flexible "wires" to make connections from the machine to the load.
And then right after that I provided a link to a USAan source/manufacturer of large sizes of ball chain.
It's not that huge an issue; the 1.5 mm ballchain, silver plated, will be better than thin flexible wire, once you find the offending rough or sharp spot. Larger is better, within reason (cost, availability, physical handling properties, etc all should be considered.) It's not worth fighting about though.
Another item that is indispensable is aluminum foil duct tape. And a trick I showed in passing in one of my videos is to use tiny magnets attached to either end of a length of ball chain -- with bits of the aluminum tape -- to make connections with metal cans or spheres. If the spheres are non-magnetic, you can glue another magnet inside the sphere. Mark the location on the outside, and then you can stick your magnet-ended ball chain on at that spot.
Hope you feel better soon, Grum. You are doing good work, keep the stress level low and chill out for a while.
I found that a Google search using the string ("hidden momentum" + "magnetic vector potential") (without the brackets) returned lots of papers discussing the subject. The hidden (non velocity-dependent) momentum given by qA applies to both the conduction electrons and the ions, but these are in opposite directions so normally they cancel out. The big question is can a change in hidden momentum result in a force due to conservation of momentum? In other word if qA changes value does q get a kick so as to obtain a velocity that creates non-hidden momentum mv to counter that change? Well in the well known case where A changes value we know that we get an electric field E=-dA/dt that puts a force qE on q. So the answer seems to be yes. In these experiments we are changing q while A remains constant. It seems surprising that this experiment hasn't been done before, or maybe it has and we just haven't found the reference.
Smudge
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.01.25, 04:39:38
Hope you feel better soon, Grum. You are doing good work, keep the stress level low and chill out for a while.
Thanks. And I wish the same to you. O0
Kind regards, Graham.
You read it here first. Here is my paper purporting to have discovered (or rediscovered) a lost electrodynamic force.
I feel like one of those explorers who has discovered a lost continent or a lost civilization. They left their wives to go on their voyages of discovery. I do the same but I just go upstairs to spend time on my voyages ^-^.
Smudge
Here is another paper. I wish I had the money and the equipment to perform meaningful experiments but sadly that is not the case.
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
Regarding figure 6 of your latest paper.
Could I use " whole " spheres press fitted into a polycarbonate disc?
I have a maximum " Swing " of 7" on my lathe meaning I could create just under a 14" diameter disc, would this be adequate ?
Kind regards, Graham.
If i remember correctly Hendershot said if you cut the earths magnetic field East-West you get movement and if you cut it North-South you get energy.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.02.05, 17:38:57
Dear Cyril.
Regarding figure 6 of your latest paper.
Could I use " whole " spheres press fitted into a polycarbonate disc?
I have a maximum " Swing " of 7" on my lathe meaning I could create just under a 14" diameter disc, would this be adequate ?
Kind regards, Graham.
Dear Graham,
I am sure you can make a 14 inch diameter motor. I think it needs to be as lightweight as possible, to be well balanced and mounted on low friction bearings. The aim is to make an electrostatic motor rotating about a horizontal axis that runs up to a self sustaining speed. Then see if that speed varies as the rotation axis is turned through 360 degrees. If you get maximum speed with the axis N-S and minimum speed with the axis S-N then that indicates the Earths vector magnetic potential is having the wanted effect.
Best regards, Cyril
It doesn't have to use spheres. Empty coke cans could work, like the machine on youtube someone posted recently. That rotated in the horizontal plane and a feature of this type of motor is that it can run in any direction. You have to give it a push to start it. So see if it runs faster in one direction compared to the other, rather than turning the whole machine through 180 degrees.
Smudge
A search on Youtube for Franklin electrostatic motor show lots of replications. These all seem to use spark gap commutation which may not be the best way to transfer the charge, but on the other hand it removes the friction of brushes. I wonder whether anybody has found that their motor runs one way faster than the other way? I guess not since the device is seen more as a curiosity than a useful piece of kit. Here are a few interesting ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlL3XtzYWV0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlL3XtzYWV0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My5AXyYJFW4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My5AXyYJFW4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmCv-0mWIfA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmCv-0mWIfA)
Also a picture of Franklin's motor. The motor can run in either direction. If the line joining the two Leyden jars runs N-S then the thimbles are travelling E-W or W-E as they pass over the jars and change polarity. There should then be a difference in rotation speed between CW or CCW rotation, due to the change in hidden momentum from the Earths A field. Turn the thing through 90 degrees so the jars are E-W and the change in revs should disappear. Greatest effect at the equator, zero effect at the Earth's poles.
Smudge
Smudge (and all)
I posted this a while back and wonder how it might fit the current ideas of electrostatic devices on a spinning disc.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=415.msg6604#msg6604
Spinning coils would develop a potential which is occasionally shorted when the tube ionizes.
Some musing on this would be interesting.
Hi Ion,
If you consider the coils as bodies that can have excess charge then it is possible they could receive force impulses that are torque impulses from the Earth's A field if the charge is switched in synch with the rotation. The synch could be obtained from the coils intersecting the Earth's horizontal B field. The high voltage could come from the flourescent starter. But it would need more than just the starter, e.g. an energy source like a storage capacitor and some reasonably complex switchery that would not be available at that pre-semiconductor time. Maybe the switching could be done by spark gap with the induced voltage from the coils which would be maximum when they are aligned E-W, but that would require the axis of the coils to be at right angles to the diameter joining them (that diameter must be N-S at the switching point).
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
In engineering there are many ways to " skin " the proverbial! I have worked out a plan to create a large diameter plastic disc without a lathe.
I'm intending to use those 2" Brass balls, of which I have many. My intention is to " press fit " them around the edge, my PCD being an 1,1/4" less than the OD.
What would be the ideal separation distance between one ball and the next?
Kind regards, Graham.
Dear Graham,
Not sure what is the best separation, but if you put in 16 spheres you would get just under 3/4 inch if my math is correct. I would think that is about right. However having just read Jefimenko's paper at http://rexresearch.com/jefimenko/jefimenko.htm (http://rexresearch.com/jefimenko/jefimenko.htm) you might consider just using the plastic disc and placing charge on its surface using corona discharge from a comb that has sharp teeth. If you look at Poggendorff's motor Figure 28 he has his combs at an angle so as to make it self starting and unidirectional, see first paragraph on page 59. If you had combs along the radii with their teeth normal to the surface the motor can run in either direction after being given a push. Then you look for different speeds in the two different directions. What do you think? My worry with the spheres is the total weight that puts load on the bearings and it might not run at all, but I am not really skilled in mechanical engineering and might be a bit paranoid there.
Best regards
Cyril
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.02.08, 11:10:58
Dear Cyril.
In engineering there are many ways to " skin " the proverbial! I have worked out a plan to create a large diameter plastic disc without a lathe.
I'm intending to use those 2" Brass balls, of which I have many. My intention is to " press fit " them around the edge, my PCD being an 1,1/4" less than the OD.
What would be the ideal separation distance between one ball and the next?
Kind regards, Graham.
Dear Graham,
For cutting large discs I use a radius arm attached to my router and use a fine point vee bit, then cut both sides about halfway through the material. Sometimes I experiment with the speed of the router so I don't get melting. I'm sure you have done this in the past, I'm just thinking out loud.
Also cutting a small circular groove to accept the edge of the hemi-spheres where the they are to be bolted will keep them from walking under high speed. If this is done on each side of the disc it should be very rigid.
I'm a little fuzzy on what is needed here. I imagine a large sphere will have more capacitance and more of a surface effect that cannot be obtained by just using doorknob capacitors inside smaller spheres for more capacitance. Or is this thinking wrong?
Kind regards
ION
The self capacitance of a sphere is proportional to its radius r and is given by C=4*pi*epsilon*r where epsilon is the permittivity of free space 8.85pF/m. For simplicity the capacity is close to 1 pF for every 1cm of radius. So Grum's 2 inch spheres will have a self capacitance of 2.5pF. The charge it gets will be related to the voltage by Q=CV. The change of charge that occurs at each brush is then 2CV (and that's not the French car :)). The force impulse (force*time) is 2*C*V*A where A is the vector magnetic field. Taking 100 Weber/m as the Earth's vector field Grum's wheel will get a 2*2.5*10-10*V force impulse at each passing. With his radius being 17.5 cm his wheel will get get a torque impulse of 1.75*V Newton-meters-seconds. With 16 spheres and rotating at R revs per second that is an average torque of 2.8*10-9*V*R Newton-meters.
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
Ok.... 14" it is... O0
I was intending to use my Rotary table under the milling machine.
I might also try the Poggendorff's motor approach first !! ;)
Dear ION.
It might surprise you to learn that a Router is a tool I don't have. Probably because my milling machine can perform the same function, but not so easy to carry around !! :) It's a good idea though, worthy of mention to those that don't have bigger kit.
I took myself to the workshop today to oversee my son's and grandson doing some casting..... Hmmm, they've got a lot to learn. A couple of pictures attached.
Kind regards, Graham.
Grum
Looks like a good way to learn the ABC's
If this hidden momentum lark actually works, then we need a means of storing then releasing charge and its hidden momentum that operates at a much lower voltage. Here is a suggestion that it can be stored by chemical means. I use the lead-acid battery merely as an example since I already had the ionic flow diagram on my computer.
Smudge
I have updated that last paper along with a suggested experiment. This does not need the EHT from a Van de Graff so it might suit other experimenters. It uses electrodes cut from those salvaged from a car battery, plus electrolyte and of course relatively low voltage pulses. The aim is to get a reasonably high current but narrow pulse into the device and look for a torque impulse. If a force from change of hidden momentum can be found it opens up so many possibilities.
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.02.08, 17:20:18
The self capacitance of a sphere is proportional to its radius r and is given by C=4*pi*epsilon*r where epsilon is the permittivity of free space 8.85pF/m. For simplicity the capacity is close to 1 pF for every 1cm of radius. So Grum's 2 inch spheres will have a self capacitance of 2.5pF. The charge it gets will be related to the voltage by Q=CV. The change of charge that occurs at each brush is then 2CV (and that's not the French car :)). The force impulse (force*time) is 2*C*V*A where A is the vector magnetic field. Taking 100 Weber/m as the Earth's vector field Grum's wheel will get a 2*2.5*10-10*V force impulse at each passing. With his radius being 17.5 cm his wheel will get get a torque impulse of 1.75*V Newton-meters-seconds. With 16 spheres and rotating at R revs per second that is an average torque of 2.8*10-9*V*R Newton-meters.
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
Could you simplify the above equation into something I can understand please? Mathematics wasn't my strongest subject.
I ventured out to the workshop but the biting NEasterly wind soon put paid to any serious work. I've ordered some 316 SS bearings and a 48 mm hole saw as the spheres aren't quite 2" in diameter.
My plan is to suspend the disc using a small DC motor as the upper bearing and use a needle point on glass as a lower preload. The motor will then be used as a Dynamo to ascertain any increase/decrease in the rotors orientation.
I will be hoping to proceed with some experiments later next week, just hoping the HVM arrives soon.
Kind regards, Graham.
Dear Grum,
I think the best way to approach this is to use the current being supplied by the VDG rather than the voltage when your beast is rotating. You can measure the current with a micro-ammeter in series with the earthy end of the connection. Taking the earth's E-W magnetic vector potential in Wales to be about 100 Weber/m (its 200 at the equator and zero at the poles) then your disc could get an anomalous torque of value current(uA)*disc diameter(m)/10,000 Newton-metres. 1Nm=0.7376 ft-lbs. So if you get 1uA and with your diameter (centre to centre) of 0.35m you should get 2.582*10-5 ft-lbs. That's a weeny torque to add or subtract from the system and I have no idea as to whether it will show up as a change of speed.
Smudge
I have found a patent WO2012053921 on electromagnetic propulsion that uses the change of charge in a magnetic vector potential to get thrust. So I am not alone. See attached extract. I can't find any meaningful images, those available are too poor a quality. It's looking good for a positive result.
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.02.11, 16:24:21
I have found a patent WO2012053921 on electromagnetic propulsion that uses the change of charge in a magnetic vector potential to get thrust. So I am not alone. See attached extract. I can't find any meaningful images, those available are too poor a quality. It's looking good for a positive result.
Smudge
Is he creating his own A field with the center magnet?
Quote from: Room3327 on 2017.02.12, 20:03:05
Is he creating his own A field with the center magnet?
Yes he is so I think his propulsion system won't work because he hasn't taken into account the reaction on that magnet. But his patent is the only written work I can find that states that
A*dq/dt represents a force that is real and can be used.
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.02.13, 08:34:31
his patent is the only written work I can find that states that A*dq/dt represents a force that is real and can be used.
Most arrangements that are responsible for the dq/dt cause a flow of charge from one place to another (electric current) and that creates its own set of force reactions.
Hello all.
Ok, all ordered materials are in with the exception of the Chinese HVM.
Now, can someone do a little mathematical work please?
My disc will have an OD of 355 mm. I'm going to pitch the spheres on a 335 mm PCD. This action will present a nearly hemisphere to the edge but a small portion of the 48 mm dia hole will be returning to secure the spheres.
Cyril suggested a 16 hole division. So I need to know the linear value in mm to set my dividers to. I could use my rotary table, but the blessed things too heavy for me to lift these days!
Thanks, in advance, Graham.
By my calculations you set your divider to 65.355mm. If the angular separation between centers is theta the formula is PCD*sin(theta/2). So that is 335*sin(11.25) in this case where the centers are 22.5 degrees apart. I hope that's right.
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.02.14, 16:10:15
By my calculations you set your divider to 65.355mm. If the angular separation between centers is theta the formula is PCD*sin(theta/2). So that is 335*sin(11.25) in this case where the centers are 22.5 degrees apart. I hope that's right.
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
I committed a " Schoolboy error ", cap in hand !! :-[
My PCD should have been 315 mm..... wanted 20 mm smaller (
ALLROUND ) Tut, tut !! Must be getting old. :)
Kind regards, Graham.
Dear Graham,
Then I get 61.453mm to set your dividers to.
Cyril
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.02.14, 19:44:00
Dear Graham,
Then I get 61.453mm to set your dividers to.
Cyril
Dear Cyril.
There's an error somewhere, the last division comes long.
We can't divide the circumference into 16 as the straight line is shorter than the curved one. I've lost my Zeus book in the workshop the formula is in there.
Kind regards, Graham.
Ok...... It's me again..... Must have set the dividers wrong!! :-[
We all make mistakes Grum.
The formula is in my previous post as PCD*sin(theta/2) where theta is the angular separation. 16 holes are set 22.5 degrees apart so you need PCD*sin(11.25).
Smudge
Dear Cyril and all.
I'm getting there !! O0
Discovered this afternoon that the spheres are not all the same size !! >:(
Time permitting I will be making a slightly tapered mandrel with some fine grit Emery cloth to open some of the holes.
The bearing is a precision SS ball race so shouldn't get sticky with any stray magnetic fields.
Cheers Graham.
Looking good Grum. Can't wait to see some results.
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.02.16, 20:10:02
Looking good Grum. Can't wait to see some results.
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
Well...... After a couple of hours spent " honing " the holes all 16 spheres fitted beautifully.
Disappointment rules the day however. I think there's too much weight to the assembly, at least in an horizontal plane. It just won't budge.
Could be there's not enough oomph from the V De G. Do I need a direct connection to the spheres?
Kind regards, Graham.
Dear Graham,
Do I take it you have tried to get some movement in a Franklin motor layout using the VDG and it won't budge? If you have some whiskers as brushes on the fixed spheres that would ensure the charge gets transferred and it may need a nudge to get it going so that all the spheres get some charge to create maximum electrostatic motor force. Don't nudge it with your fingers!. I did say early on that the spheres may be too heavy and there was talk of coated balloons or even empty coke cans. If you want to talk in more depth on the phone then message me and I'll send you my phone details.
Regards
Cyril
Dear Graham,
Even if your disc-of-spheres is too heavy to do meaningful overunity torque measurements it can still be used for an experiment that could have significant scientific importance. Currently there is a view that you cannot induce DC into a coil. That stems from induction coming from rate-of-change of flux through the coil, and to get DC the flux would have to be changing in the same direction permanently, i.e rising to infinity. Expressed as V=-dPhi/dt this is considered to be the only way you can induce voltage into a coil. I think this is too narrow a view and there could be another expression although I am not clever enough to put is as a formula. If you can induce DC into a loop, that will also apply if the loop has atomic dimensions and that means we can put a load onto the atomic circulations that exist in permanent magnets, i,e, the aligned electron spins and orbits. This is what I suggest as the means for applying a load to the Earth's core that supplies the Earth's magnetic field.
In the suggested experiment you drive the Franklin disc-of-spheres and supply charge as in the Franklin electrostatic motor, but you don't look for any torque change. Instead you look for DC induction into a coil. This is shown in the attached image. There is no doubt that the sudden transfer of charge into or out of the spheres at the brush contacts will radiate pulses and these will be picked up by the coil. When you look at the magnetic vector potential at the coil, each moving charged sphere creates a rotating vector but the vector only rotates through 180 degrees, then it suddenly reverses its polarity. According to classical theory the rotating A vector being at constant amplitude does not result in an electric field, it is only the switch in polarity that creates an electric effect. Hence the coil receives a series of unidirectional E field impulses, we have a means for transmitting a DC component through space (that in itself could be an important finding). The 1/r radiation law then assures that a coil will get more E field on its nearest edge than its furthest edge and you get a voltage induction that has a DC component.
If you are interested in doing this experiment I have a piece of kit that Graham Gunderson gave me. It is a DC amplifier that enables your 'scope to get down to micro-volts DC. It is so sensitive that you only have to touch a croc-clip connection and the heat transfer from your fingers causes a change. I can send this to you if you need it.
Thanks for you phone number, I'll be in touch later today or this evening.
Regards
Cyril
Dear Cyril.
Great to hear from you this afternoon. O0
My " El cheapo " DMM suggests a current of 100+ microamperes but on reversing connections a very erratic reading is seen.
The current setup is really " makeshift " so I'll endeavour to improve things as time permits.
Kind regards, Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.02.20, 16:55:32
My " El cheapo " DMM suggests a current of 100+ microamperes but on reversing connections a very erratic reading is seen.
DMMs are confused by pulsed DC.
Precede it with a fast diode in series followed by a capacitor in parallel.
Dear Graham,
After talking to you about the Innova device I looked at overunity.com to see their ideas on jam jar lids etc. It is clear to me that the hemispheres are attached to the rotating disc, they are not on a separate fixed disc. But yes there are three different coloured metals there. My take on this is that to get a significant amount of charge from a not too high voltage they are using half cell technology. A rechargeable battery uses two half cells to get a potential difference between the two electrodes. Each electrode reacts with the electolyte to put ions into the electrolyte and I think the ions could be the charge store. Normally a half cell (one electrode in an electrolyte) reacts chemically to have positive ions in the electrolyte and the reaction ceases when a certain quantity of the electrode material has been oxidised leaving the electrode negatively charged with excess electrons and positive ions in the electrolyte. IMO a fast pulse can remove the excess electrons from the electrode leaving positively charged ions in the electrolyte. Without the other electrode present to make a complete cell these ions can't travel anywhere. So effectively you have much more stored charge than you would get from having just a metal sphere with its small self capacitance. It's a bit like a one-electrode electrolytic self- capacitance. If you look at the other Brazilian machine at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlLOHKRP2GU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlLOHKRP2GU) you will see the hemispheres have a blue tinge, again indicating the use of an unusual metal. In that machine you see the guy fiddle with what could be the brush system that transfers the charge onto the electrodes as they pass top dead center. The Innova machine doesn't appear to have brushes, so I think it gets its charge from magnetic induction. The large coils at the back of the machine have counter windings so that flux gets ejected out through what looks like holes surrounded by white taped toroids. The hemispheres on the disc are not only part of a half cell but also contain coils whose output voltage charges the half cells. The coils get there induction from movement through the magnetic field from that rear set of coils that carry DC. So IMO the Innova device is a sort of Franklin motor getting torque electrostatically but more importantly also getting torque from the Earth's A field.
Regards
Smudge
Quote from: verpies on 2017.02.20, 17:14:28
DMMs are confused by pulsed DC.
Precede it with a fast diode in series followed by a capacitor in parallel.
Dear Verpies.
I had the V De G totally shorted with the DMM on microamperes, there was a steady Current reading in one polarity, which increased with the speed control. With polarities reversed the display flickered all sorts of readings.
Would that be considered pulsed if a direct and constant connection was being made?
Cheers Graham.
Dear Cyril.
I have attached the photograph we were discussing, I have indicated ( in Yellow ) the disc I was talking about, looks like Polycarbonate and smaller diameter to me.
What do you or other members see ?
Several heads are better than one !! ;)
Kind regards, Graham.
Dear Graham,
That's not a thin transparent disc. What you see is tin plated wire connecting all the bolts together, it goes under the nuts. The photo was probably taken to show that the wire has come apart, you can see a loose end hanging down from the top electrode of the photo, see my image below.
Cyril
I have created a Powerpoint presentation on the vector potential motor and here is it in pdf form. Enjoy
Smudge
1. You cannot properly measure the output of a VDG or other ES machine by "shorting" it through a meter, since the output depends on the ability of the machine to charge to a high voltage, and shorting through a meter prevents this buildup of voltage (charge separation). The proper way is to use a moving-coil microammeter or milliammeter, connected in series with the load you are powering with the machine, said load presenting a very high impedance. I would not use a DMM anywhere near such a machine regardless of how it is connected, as I would be very worried about buildup of charge inside the meter, resulting in damage to the microprocessor and/or other delicate components. No such worries with a moving coil meter.
2. I think I see the thin transparent disk that Grum is talking about, and it is _not_ the ring of wire (with a loose end) spanning the can-lid "segments". However....
3. The Innova Tehno device is 100 percent hoax. There is no point in trying to analyze what is essentially a bit of modern art sculpture, trying to get something working. By now you should all know enough about static machines to be able to tell that all the sharp points and edges of that device would never allow buildup of sufficient charge differential to do anything useful, much less give you the "holy grail" of self-running and substantial power output. And you certainly should be able to tell the difference between the behaviour of hoaxers, and real inventors with a unique device. Open minds are good, but not so open that your brains run out your earholes, making a useless mess of timewasting and futile "experimentation".
4. There should certainly be enough power from Grum's VDG machine at high voltage to get his disk of spheres rotating, _if_ the central bearing friction is sufficiently low. You need to pay careful attention to the "stator" structures that are providing the attraction/repulsion to the spheres on the rotor, as well as providing a frictionless means of transferring charge from the stator disks or spheres to the ones on the rotor. I recommend using carbon fiber rovings, available at your local aircraft hobby shop, as brushes for this purpose. Although my Enhanced Franklin Motor is spark-commutated and optimized for rotating only in one direction, you may like to review my video of this motor. Substitute brushes of carbon fiber for the sparking electrodes, eliminate the biasing stator elements, and make sure all parts that carry charge are smoooooooth and that the only conductive paths are provided by the CF brushes themselves.
5. A much simpler corona motor may also be adequate to test Smudge's conjectures about vector potential directionality affecting rotation.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.02.20, 18:56:48
Would that be considered pulsed if a direct and constant connection was being made?
No that would be steady.
However the DC induced in the multi-turn coil that Cyril has proposed, would be pulsed.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.02.20, 22:04:22
2. I think I see the thin transparent disk that Grum is talking about, and it is _not_ the ring of wire (with a loose end) spanning the can-lid "segments".
I see it too now. And you can see something on that disc towards the back, looks like a protruding bolt thread with nuts wound with two turns of some form of thick tape.
QuoteThe Innova Tehno device is 100 percent hoax. There is no point in trying to analyze what is essentially a bit of modern art sculpture, trying to get something working. By now you should all know enough about static machines to be able to tell that all the sharp points and edges of that device would never allow buildup of sufficient charge differential to do anything useful, much less give you the "holy grail" of self-running and substantial power output. And you certainly should be able to tell the difference between the behaviour of hoaxers, and real inventors with a unique device. Open minds are good, but not so open that your brains run out your earholes, making a useless mess of timewasting and futile "experimentation".
You may be right about the hoax but that doesn't mean we have to stop looking at it just in case it is not a hoax. I have tried to make the point that there is the possibility of getting significant motor torque at voltages where the sharp points and edges are not of any concern.
Smudge
Dear TinselKoala.
Many thanks for the hints and tips. O0
The central bearing is a 2 RS and filled with production grease. I shall pop the seals and wash out with alcohol then apply some " clock oil " which is very light.
Now, the stator. Am I correct in thinking they need to be of a similar size to improve the repulsion/attraction?
I'm happy that you noticed that inner disc, but, IMO it "ain't " thin...... I would suggest a good 1/2" thick based upon the machines overall size and other components attached. I spent most of my adult life scaling IC engines from pictures I have a " good eye " for this sort of thing. It might just be there to reinforce the larger disc, but I'm unsure without more detailed pictures to work with.
Kind regards, Graham.
Addendum.
I'm not very familiar with this stuff!
With the rotor stationary I'm seeing sparks leaving to my earthy sphere. Is this suggesting that my plastic is conducting rather than insulating? Oh, I can also draw small sparks from each of the spheres too.
Graham,
It could be the plastic surface that is conducting. I recall TK saying something about this.
Cyril
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.02.21, 19:52:39
It could be the plastic surface that is conducting.
Especially when it is dusty/dirty + damp
I have just earned......
TWIT OF THE WEEK AWARD
Just found the specification of the plastic I used.......... ANTISTATIC
MK 2 disc underway.....
I think we can all earn that reward. I had to replace the rear shock absorbers on my Cortina Estate, spent ages lying under it sawing through a rusted-in bolt using a triangular file (don't ask!) only to find I was sawing in the wrong place when the wrong bit fell off. Another time I was checking some wiring in our airing-cupboard and placed the Avometer on top of the conveniently placed central heating water pump. Then wondered why I was standing in a pool of water (the pump had a priming button on its top surface).
Smudge
SUCCESS!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fiF6yJJX0
Thanks to all concerned. O0
Cheers Graham
Well done Grum, you must be pleased after all your efforts. Now you need to find a method of checking to see whether the Earth's A field is having any effect in aiding or opposing the torque. With your heavy wheel it takes time to accelerate up to a steady RPM so you need to take that into account. Do you have any ready method of measuring RPM?
Smudge
Indeed Graham, very well done, an impressive build.
I love the way it gets "up to steam".
Does it run either way when pushed?
Itsu
Thanks Guys.
I think you could hear in my voice that I was really happy.
Got to be quick, a storm is raging here, no electricity, running the WiFi from a UPS at the moment.
Obviously I won't be able to continue improving the build until our power is restored but will be thinking of a suitable method of speed measurement.
Verpies/anybody , could you draw that circuit for the micoammeter please?
Cheers Graham.
Well done mate! O0
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.02.23, 08:48:35
With your heavy wheel it takes time to accelerate up to a steady RPM so you need to take that into account. Do you have any ready method of measuring RPM?
I made a brief estimate of the RPM by counting the rotations of the silver ring in the center top of the disc. From 2:30 to 2:40 I counted 8 and from 2:40 to 2:50 I counted 9, and the disc still appeared to be accelerating as the video ended.
8x6 = 48 RPM and 9x6 = 54 RPM
An opto interruptor can be used to measure faster RPM's more accurately without disturbing the electrostatic energy state of the experiment / toy!
Quote from: Itsu on 2017.02.23, 10:36:43
Indeed Graham, very well done, an impressive build.
I love the way it gets "up to steam".
Does it run either way when pushed?
Itsu
Dear Itsu.
Yes it does run both ways.
Electricity back on now..... I discovered an old Ash tree had gone through our LV overhead line.... all four properties were off for 4 hours, hat's off to those guys they battled against absolutely horrendous weather......
Cheers Graham.
Well done Graham
I watched the video on my phone as been running around wife's clients since Tuesday, just got them to the airport and back home.
Interesting to see what comes of this, very exciting
Regards
Mike 8)
Been thinking about that Innova Tehnu machine and here is my take on it. Those rear coils have some core material in them probably steel. They carry DC but the flux is not continuous. The coils carry current to give the effect shown in the attached image. In the machine the pole pieces are hidden under white tape. Each thingy on the wheel passes over the pole pieces so I reckon the retaining bolt acts as a core for the internal coil that drives the capacitance. The things are filled with dielectric or possibly electrolyte material to get high value capacitance, as shown in the second image. One thing I have learned from this exercise is that charge that is changing in magnitude as it moves around a circle has the capability of extracting energy from a magnetic vector potential. So here we have just that, the charge is alternating by movement through the field from those pole faces and of course it is moving in a circle. What about the front coils? They certainly do look like Tesla coils but I think that may be wrong. That large inverted U shaped thing sticking out of the coils could be core material so the flux is essentially contained inside the core as it would be in a toroid. The wheely things are moving through the vector potential emanating from that core so they could be extracting energy from the atomic dipoles responsible for the magnetic flux in the core. It could be extracting energy from the quantum domain.
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
Love those technical terms..... " thingy " " wheely things " O0 :)
Attached is one of the latest photos kindly posted by Stefan at OU.com.
That white spatter was noticed by Luc, from it's position it hasn't come from that bearing.... Now what's that white powder super dielectric that was mentioned some time back? Anyone?
Kind regards, Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.02.23, 20:26:20
Dear Cyril.
Love those technical terms..... " thingy " " wheely things " O0 :)
Attached is one of the latest photos kindly posted by Stefan at OU.com.
That white spatter was noticed by Luc, from it's position it hasn't come from that bearing.... Now what's that white powder super dielectric that was mentioned some time back? Anyone?
Kind regards, Graham.
Either PTFE or cellulose acetate.
The later you can use a packet of cigaret filters (10g) disolved in 200ml of pure acetone, when the acetone evaporates you are left with a flexible clear acetate which is non conductive. Being a liquid to start with, you can make any shape you want or dip coat, works very well, it is sort of rubbery when dry.
Regards
Mike 8)
Dear Mike.
Interesting, but it had a more " exotic " name.... Mentioned on the Dally thread a long time ago.
My memory's rubbish these days.
Kind regards, Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.02.23, 20:26:20
Now what's that white powder super dielectric that was mentioned some time back? Anyone?
Titanium dioxide is white and has a dielectric constant of 100. It is uses as a pigment in brilliant white paint. Water has a K of about 78 so I guess water based brilliant white emulsion paint could be good. Barium titinate is even better with K around 1000 but it is piezoelectric. Don't know if anyone has tried powdered Barium titinate in an emulsion.
Smudge
First 2 pics taken at another time showing much more of the white stuff on the floor.
The other pics show the Gold covers with a bolt sticking out (on rotor) looks identical to glass jar lids which would suggest a jar is behind the gold lid and possibly containing the white stuff that leaked out during rotation.
Luc
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.02.24, 11:57:47
Dear Mike.
Interesting, but it had a more " exotic " name.... Mentioned on the Dally thread a long time ago.
My memory's rubbish these days.
Kind regards, Graham.
Mine too Graham :'(, I now see Cyril said either electrolyte (conductive) or dielectric (non conductive). If it is for high capacitance the acetate has a constant around 2.1, air is 1, also good to insulate, I was thinking of it being an insulator around the coil in his drawing.
Regards
Mike 8)
Quote from: Centraflow on 2017.02.24, 17:34:10
Mine too Graham :'(, I now see Cyril said either electrolyte (conductive) or dielectric (non conductive). If it is for high capacitance the acetate has a constant around 2.1, air is 1, also good to insulate, I was thinking of it being an insulator around the coil in his drawing.
Regards
Mike 8)
We need a much higher dielectric constant to get as much charge as possible on widely separate electrodes. That 2.1 figure won't do much. The reason for suggesting electrolyte is that a chemical change can release much more charge than you would get from a normal capacitor plate and at much lower voltage. AFAIK little attention has been paid to half cells (a single electrode in an electrolyte) that are given a high voltage pulse where the possibility exists for an enormous quantity of charge to be temporarily released into the electrolyte in the form of positive ions. To give an example, if we had an electrostatic motor of the Franklin type using 4 inch dia spheres charged to 100KV, each sphere carries about 0.6 microCoulombs. That same quantity of charge could occur in a half cell pumped with 1 amp for 0.6 microseconds. Pump it for 0.6 milliseconds and you get 1000 times more charge. Imagine Grum's Franklin motor having 1000 times more charge on his spheres!
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.02.25, 09:42:20
We need a much higher dielectric constant to get as much charge as possible on widely separate electrodes. That 2.1 figure won't do much. The reason for suggesting electrolyte is that a chemical change can release much more charge than you would get from a normal capacitor plate and at much lower voltage. AFAIK little attention has been paid to half cells (a single electrode in an electrolyte) that are given a high voltage pulse where the possibility exists for an enormous quantity of charge to be temporarily released into the electrolyte in the form of positive ions. To give an example, if we had an electrostatic motor of the Franklin type using 4 inch dia spheres charged to 100KV, each sphere carries about 0.6 microCoulombs. That same quantity of charge could occur in a half cell pumped with 1 amp for 0.6 microseconds. Pump it for 0.6 milliseconds and you get 1000 times more charge. Imagine Grum's Franklin motor having 1000 times more charge on his spheres!
Smudge
OK
So your electrolyte is your charge carrier as opposed to the electrode! just trying to get my aging head around this, I'm so used to electrode chemical change to carry the charge and the electrolyte to move the ions, it only has to be one as I use in my system, but there I use up over time the other collector/electrode, and only charge the one (with oxygen).
So you are sugesting the brass dome is just the collector to put positive charge into the electrolyte, then when it moves to another contact point of negative potencial, it discharges, but the collector in the electrolyte is now, possibly the coil, and not the brass dome (just looking at your earlier diagram with the coil).
Does the electrolyte have to chemicaly change, or does it just have suspended charged particles?
All fascinating stuff which needs to be experimented with.
Regards
Mike 8)
The fast pulse, high voltage charge works well at controling the current
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.02.25, 09:42:20
Pump it for 0.6 milliseconds and you get 1000 times more charge.
That would amount to 600μC
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.02.25, 09:42:20
Imagine Grum's Franklin motor having 1000 times more charge on his spheres!
Then the repulsion force acting on two such spheres spaced 10cm apart would be equivalent to the weight of 3593kg ...and the device would tear itself apart.
Quote from: verpies on 2017.02.25, 13:42:14
Then the repulsion force acting on two such spheres spaced 10cm apart would be equivalent to the weight of 3593kg ...and the device would tear itself apart.
:o :o :o :D That's
THREE AND A HALF METRIC TONS!!This all sounds really " far fetched " to me..... Laymans terms please ? Is this something we could test?
A four inch hemisphere, in Copper would cost around £12.00 each from my metal spinners.
Cheers Graham.
Guys, don't get carried away ;). I only used those numbers to emphasise the possibility that we could get much more charge temporarily stored in an electrolyte than we would normally get capacitively. Verpies has succinctly described the outcome of increased charge of that magnitude. In the Croatian Innova machine I suspect the charging/discharging process is via voltage induced into coils inside the hemispheres although there is another possibility and that is voltage induced across the cell via flux cutting. With the cell axis (electrode to electrode dimension) parallel to the rotation axis and the velocity circumferential it only needs some radial magnetic field to get induction across the cell. That could occur if the hemisphere-jam-jar lid cell does not pass directly over the pole faces but inboard or outboard of them. Either way the crux is that temporary storage of relatively large amounts of charge. It should be possible to experiment with two pulsed cells near each other to see whether there is that large electric force present. I would be inclined to make a cell with identical electrodes so that there is zero galvanic potential, but where impulse "charging" could make one electrode deliver ions into the solution. Then see whether two identical cells exhibit this force.
Smudge
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.02.25, 14:15:38
:o :o :o :D That's THREE AND A HALF METRIC TONS!!
Yes, provided that these spheres are charged to 600μC.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.02.25, 14:15:38
This all sounds really " far fetched " to me..... Laymans terms please ?
It is the charging of these spheres to that level, that is the difficult part.
I'll leave it to Cyril to calculate how much charge imbalance can be provided by the ionic electrolyte half-cell, practically.
Below is a photo of a real device used to generate a rotating magnetic field.
Its coils are driven in quadrature to create a rotating magnetic field (double-coil field rotation is shown in the animated GIF below).
Now a little neater.....
Base to finish.
Quote from: verpies on 2017.02.25, 16:03:03
I'll leave it to Cyril to calculate how much charge imbalance can be provided by the ionic electrolyte half-cell, practically.
Not my field. I'll try to do some research/self-education to see if I can come up with some figures.
Cyril
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.02.25, 18:15:40
Now a little neater.....
Base to finish.
When you look out of that window just above the machine in what direction are you looking? Hopefully it is near E or W then you can look for the vector potential effect simply by reversing the direction of rotation. If it speeds up faster in one direction than the other then that is a good sign.
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.02.25, 15:47:17
I would be inclined to make a cell with identical electrodes so that there is zero galvanic potential, but where impulse "charging" could make one electrode deliver ions into the solution. Then see whether two identical cells exhibit this force.
Smudge
The metal used must be pure as in pure nickel, copper, zinc etc, brass or stainless steel would be no good. I have shown what happens to SS when pulsed, it breaks down into it's base metal oxides, but can give huge current spikes on discharge.
I have done many experiments on this, not
exactly what Smudge is thinking of though, but can confirm the high current discharge is possible from the reversing chemical change when pulsed. Funny how things start to overlap in certain areas.
Tell me exactly what experiment you would like done and I may be able to do it
Regards
Mike 8)
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.02.25, 19:07:49
When you look out of that window just above the machine in what direction are you looking? Hopefully it is near E or W then you can look for the vector potential effect simply by reversing the direction of rotation. If it speeds up faster in one direction than the other then that is a good sign.
Smudge
Hi Cyril.
The home is built facing South, the window is Looking North. My electrodes are HT..... West ( LH )..... Ground East ( RH ).
Kind regards, Graham.
Quote from: Centraflow on 2017.02.25, 19:34:44
Funny how things start to overlap in certain areas.
Regards
Mike 8)
Dear Mike.
I think that as we gain a better understanding of the " Nature of things " all will overlap! ;)
I'm still reeling from Verpies post.......
THREE AND A HALF METRIC TONSKind regards, Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.02.25, 19:42:38
Hi Cyril.
The home is built facing South, the window is Looking North. My electrodes are HT..... West ( LH )..... Ground East ( RH ).
Kind regards, Graham.
Hi Graham,
So at the point where the wheel spheres gain or lose charge they are moving along the N-S axis. That's the wrong orientation but worth checking that it goes round both ways with the same amount of oomph. You then need to turn the system through 90 degrees to get them moving along the E-W axis. Then re-check whether there is a difference in rotation direction. Best to do it when it is all mounted on a base.
Regards
Cyril
Hi Cyril.
I don't quite understand your last post.
I'm applying charge ( in the photograph ) from the West and removing it at the East. We have already proven that the disc spins in both directions.
For the experiment we need to ( hopefully ) see a difference in speed with the charge placed on the North and removed at the South?
I hope to find time enough today to make a Polycarbonate base but am stuck with what to use as a Tachometer. I have a " hand held " one but it tends to, annoyingly, auto off....
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: verpies on 2017.02.25, 16:03:03
Yes, provided that these spheres are charged to 600μC.
It is the charging of these spheres to that level, that is the difficult part.
Dear Verpies.
Am I correct in assuming that the repulsive force of electrostatic energy is greater than that of electromagnetic energy?
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.02.26, 11:19:17
Hi Cyril.
I don't quite understand your last post.
I'm applying charge ( in the photograph ) from the West and removing it at the East. We have already proven that the disc spins in both directions.
For the experiment we need to ( hopefully ) see a difference in speed with the charge placed on the North and removed at the South?
I hope to find time enough today to make a Polycarbonate base but am stuck with what to use as a Tachometer. I have a " hand held " one but it tends to, annoyingly, auto off....
Cheers Graham.
It is the
sphere movement while it is receiving charge that is important, it has to move along the A field vector that runs W-E for any effect to occur. Your machine would work with the stator spheres above or below the moving ones when the arriving charge would be along a vertical axis, that arrival direction is of no consequence. Does that make things clearer?
As regards the tachometer, do you have an oscilloscope.? I think a small single turn loop on the end of a piece of coax would be able to pick up impulses from the sparks. Use the earthy stator sphere and place the loop near the spark. The scope trace should then show a train of impulses where you can measure the time intervals and that of course will give you the speed.
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.02.26, 17:39:20
I think a small single turn loop on the end of a piece of coax would be able to pick up impulses from the sparks.
I must object to this on practical and pecuniary grounds. Any mishap and the HV will kill the front end of the scope fast.
Otherwise it will work.
A alternative idea: Grum must have a strobe light for the tuning love of his engines.
Perhaps he can trigger it with his signal generator and observe the rotation of his disk in the strobe light from afar. When the disks rotates with any multiple frequency of the strobelight - it appears stationary.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.02.26, 13:51:55
Am I correct in assuming that the repulsive force of electrostatic energy is greater than that of electromagnetic energy?
EM almost does not repel at all. e.g.: have you ever seen the repulsion of two light beams?
As for the distinction between magnetic and electric repulsions, I can write that two parallel wires spaced 1 meter apart and carrying 1 Amp of current (=1 Coulomb per second) will magnetically repel with a force equivalent to the weight of 20μg (for each 1m length of the wires).
However, two spheres spaced 1 meter apart and charged to 1 Coulomb each will electrically repel with a force equivalent to the weight of 917431 metric tons. ( see
this (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elefor.html) ).
...but, but! who is to say that 1C/s is even comparable to 1C ?! A second is such an arbitrary unit! Ignoring that time factor leads to a nonsensical comparison, such as power to energy ;)
If we used a picosecond instead, then the magnetic force from 1C/ps current would be larger than the electric force from 1C charge (both at the same 1m spacing).
P.S.
The differences in magnitudes and behaviors of electric and magnetic forces, arise because electric forces are caused by 1D motions and magnetic forces are caused by 2D motions (not to be confused with 1 dimensional motions represented in 2 dimensional reference systems).
When an effect of motion is distributed over multiple dimensions, it manifests less in one dimension than motion not distributed over multiple dimensions. That's like each of two women getting less effect from your wallet than one woman.
Many thanks Verpies. O0
Ok....
Initial results..... Looking good, but wrongly executed.....
Clockwise rotation yields 80+ RPM with more rapid acceleration. Anticlockwise rotation yields 60+ RPM with noticeably longer acceleration time.
" Mr Hand " was used to start rotation, this is something that needs addressing.
Yet to try with North input South output.
Kind regards, Graham.
Further to Verpies answer a few posts back where he took two spheres placed 1m apart and carrying 1 Coulomb each.
If the spheres both move at velocity v at right angles to the line joining them then the magnetic force between them is exactly v/c times the enormous electrostatic force stated by Verpies, where c is the velocity of light. I think that is a better way to view things. Of course the electric force is still present, so if we did the measurement we would just measure a single force that is slightly smaller than the static one. In fact we could write that changed force due to the movement as (1-v/c) times the static one. That immediately suggests that magnetic and electric forces have a common origin and it's just our teaching that tells us they are different. That (1-v/c) factor appears a lot in relativity theory so perhaps that is the link. If you wonder how this can be when electric force formula use the permittivity (e-nought) of space while the magnetic formula use the permeability (mu-nought) of space then realise that (mu-nought)*(enought)=1/c2.
Smudge
More results.
With HT applied due North, ground applied due South I get....
66 RPM Clockwise.
71.3 RPM Counter Clockwise. With markedly noticeable acceleration in this direction.
These results come from using my " hand held " opto tachometer bouncing of each sphere then dividing by 16.
Having spoken with Cyril on the telephone last night the only method that will prove positively is with the HV module and the experiment set up outside in the middle of nowhere! Lucky for me..... I live in the middle of nowhere!
That's all for now folks......
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.02.26, 20:17:15
If the spheres both move at velocity v at right angles to the line joining them then the magnetic force between them is exactly v/c times the enormous electrostatic force stated by Verpies, where c is the velocity of light.
Yes, and to dazzle Grum some more, I will write that the same thing will happen if the charged spheres are stationary but the observer is moving at right angles to the line joining them.
Well done Grum. Yes the electrostatic field applied to the moving spheres can well be modified by nearby objects such as walls and that could explain why you get the different rotation speeds. We'll have to wait for better weather before you venture outdoors. Oh well, its only 269 years since Franklin built his motor so what does it matter if we wait a few weeks (or months as it's Welsh weather we are talking about >:-) ).
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.02.27, 15:40:20
Well done Grum. Yes the electrostatic field applied to the moving spheres can well be modified by nearby objects such as walls and that could explain why you get the different rotation speeds. We'll have to wait for better weather before you venture outdoors. Oh well, its only 269 years since Franklin built his motor so what does it matter if we wait a few weeks (or months as it's Welsh weather we are talking about >:-) ).
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
I'm confused....
I thought that it
WAS the difference in RPM we were looking for ? ( Direction dependent )
Kind regards, Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.02.27, 17:47:00
I thought that it WAS the difference in RPM we were looking for ? ( Direction dependent )
I think he meant it to be "direction dependent" relative to the equator, not relative to your walls.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.02.27, 17:47:00
I thought that it WAS the difference in RPM we were looking for ? ( Direction dependent )
Yes it is but we can't claim to have definitely found the Earth's
A field effect if the same effect can be created by distortion of the electrostatic field. We have to rule out the latter and that means doing the experiment within a vast space where there are no nearby walls. While I sincerely hope that your latest finding really
is the effect that I am looking for, the fact that it also showed up in the earlier run where the stator had a different orientation clearly demonstrates that your room is not the ideal laboratory. So I wait impatiently for the results from the next phase. If in the "wrong" orientation it can be shown that both rotation directions are equal while in the "right" orientation they are unequal then we are on much stronger ground.
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
The dim light bulb now shines brightly!! O0
There's a member who's watching quietly suggesting that my spheres having a hole at either end might also " skew " the results.
I've just looked on eBay, there's a seller offering 5cm 304 SS hollow spheres at £0.99 each, with an extra 5% off if more than 3 are purchased. Free postage to boot!
What's the thoughts? It will mean me having to hone another 0.5 mm out of each socket but that's no big deal.
Consensus?
Kind regards, Graham.
These...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-Size-Stainless-Steel-Mirror-Sphere-Polished-Hollow-Ball-Home-Garden-Ornament-/162176736075?var=&hash=item25c27c9b4b:m:mpCrUG4LoQUCc8d4jMm-n-w
And..... While we are about it ......
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Red-LED-4-Digital-Tachometer-RPM-Speed-Meter-NPN-Hall-Proximity-Switch-Sensor-/162017018134?hash=item25b8f78116:g:Iy8AAOSwxp9W88Xv
Cheers Graham.
Dear Graham,
What's the weight of those SS spheres? If they are substantially lighter than your brass ones then I would say go for it. The change in acceleration between CW and CCW will be more noticeable, and you won't have to wait so long for the wheel to reach max revs.
Regards
Cyril
Dear Cyril.
The deed is done....
Knowing the Chinese they will probably be made from the lightest gauge possible! I went to order 16, the dialogue box said enter a lower number. I entered 8 thinking it was a maximum postal thing. went to order another 8 only to find they had 7 left..... I have had to order 8 from a different supplier.... Gad zooks sometimes eBay can be quite frustrating !!
Now, yet another slow boat sets it's lonely sail..... Could be mid April. :(
Kind regards, Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.02.28, 13:16:27
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Red-LED-4-Digital-Tachometer-RPM-Speed-Meter-NPN-Hall-Proximity-Switch-Sensor-/162017018134?hash=item25b8f78116:g:Iy8AAOSwxp9W88Xv
Where would you put the magnet the thing senses? With a detection range of 10mm max you couldn't put it on the wheel near the spheres, it would have to be inboard near the bearing. Then you have the wiring to the sensor head that would have to be routed so that it didn't affect the measurement or get clobbered by the high voltage. No, the best route is for an optical pick off that will work at a reasonable range. With some clever lens attachment it should be possible to get you hand held tachometer working at a longer range where you can have it fixed to a stand.
Smudge
@@ Sorry posted at same time as Cyril ,and now I see additional equipment mentioned ...
@ Grum
Like waiting for the secret decoder ring in the mail..... :-[
here is a brief "partial "summary of experimenting criteria .
@ Dry bearings no oil [years of scientific Gyroscope experience.. dry clean bearings are best [this machine is not running forever or under extreme loads [Yet ^-^ Acetone or other for clean up
@ yes light weight spheres , smooth of equal dimension [as much as possible on OUR budget
@ Well grounded faraday cage "Chicken wire" OK, a nice 10ft box was mentioned [having a bottom on cage not too important {?} ,height as best can be done .
@ position wooden {?} table in middle of grounded faraday room with van der graff underneath [no bias to one side or other and no people in room
try to have viewing port ??
@ all leads should be of equal length so as to not bias operation [within reason
@ mentioned keeping personal distance and using "sticks" for adjustments [will ask for clarity on "sticks ?
@@ note touching can make archs which will leave carbon traces { very bad] any archs will deposit carbon traces .
@ Comment on working outside ? Very Difficult to achieve quality environment [particles etc
@ results need repeatability to rule out all unknown or unseen contributions from local environment
**sure there is more I forgot , will add as advised ....................
Just had a chat with Chet, or a chet with Chat and he asked me post the model number of my digital tachometer.
It's a DT-2234C
Red laser based, the range of sensing can be several inches away and so negate electrostatic effects.
It's one of those where you put a piece of silver foil on a rotor. The usual trick, to avoid using their own supplied small amount of tape, is to loop/paint black around the rotor edge and stick a small piece of tinfoil over that on the rotor.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Laser-Photo-Tachometer-Non-Contact-RPM-Tach-Meter-Speed-Gauge-DT-2234C-/322094945843?hash=item4afe5ad633:g:mPIAAOSwiYFXKApP
$10.62 Free Shipping
Mine has been running for years with no issues. You can save the readings (up to 3) and it runs on a 9V PP3, have had the same one in this all that time.
Dear Cyril.
Can this experiment be run in a different way?
I could substitute the central bearing with a suitably machined plastic gear that is fitted to a 12 VDC motor. Then drive the disc.
What would we need ? Can the experiment be done this way, or is the electrostatic interaction a fundamental key?
Kind regards, Graham.
Dear Graham,
The spheres gaining and then losing charge is the fundamental key, not the electrostatic attraction or repulsion. It is that gain or loss of charge at the point where the sphere is travelling along the A vector that conjures up a force impulse pointing along or against the A vector. It is that force impulse that is anomalous and either aids or hinders the electrostatic motor action.
Your present set-up has two charged spheres as the stator and these produce the electrostatic field that is part of the electrostatic motor. Those stator spheres are analogous to the N and S poles of a simple magnetic motor while the moving spheres are like the armature and also the commutator. It would be nice if the stator spheres were not there to create the electrostatic field and the motor would just run on the A field interaction. That would still need something to feed charge onto the moving spheres, like a sharp point mounted on an insulated pillar or even a tiny sphere, and the same on the other side to take charge off. You would still need the same high voltage to get the charge onto the rotor spheres. However the small stator electrodes would not then produce such a large electrostatic field and its motor action would be much reduced. The A field interaction might not be sufficient to drive the motor, and that is where your suggestion could be put to use. You could drive the disc via your 12 VDC motor and note its power draw under different orientations to see whether there really is something anomalous aiding or hindering the drive.
I have put forward the idea that a much larger charge might be obtained at a much lower voltage by using cell technology where charge is released by a chemical reaction, and that could be what the Innova Croatian device uses. If we get to that stage the electrostatic motor action might disappear, then we have the A field reaction as a strong anomalous driving force where your DC motor becomes a generator that delivers anomalous energy to an external load.
Regards
Cyril
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.03.01, 15:34:56
I have put forward the idea that a much larger charge might be obtained at a much lower voltage by using cell technology where charge is released by a chemical reaction
Regards
Cyril
And could that cell technology which causes a chemical reaction be the white substance that has leaked out of jars which I believe to be behind the gold lids on the rotor?
Regards
Luc
Quote from: gotoluc on 2017.03.01, 17:27:27
And could that cell technology which causes a chemical reaction be the white substance that has leaked out of jars which I believe to be behind the gold lids on the rotor?
Yes of course it could. The interesting thing about the magnetic vector potential, the
A field, is that it penetrates, it doesn't get shielded. So you can have charge inside a cell that is hidden behind a metallic shell and it can still react with the Earth's
A field. It can still produce a force. The only down side to this speculation is that although there will be a relatively enormous amount of charge in the form of say positive ions in the electrolyte, the chemical reaction leaves behind that same amount of opposite polarity charge as free electrons in the electrode. (It is this production of free electrons that allows the cell to produce an electric current). So the two cancel out wrt force. Only if the free electrons in the electrode are suddenly removed do we have that large quantity of charge left isolated in the electrolyte, and I posit that is what happens. Of course we are not talking about a complete battery cell here that consists of two half cells having different electrode materials, we are talking about just a half cell with only one electrode.
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.03.01, 19:40:04
Of course we are not talking about a complete battery cell here that consists of two half cells having different electrode materials, we are talking about just a half cell with only one electrode.
Smudge
Yes. one electrode we see on the rotor but maybe the other is not recognizable or visible?
Luc
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.03.01, 19:40:04
The interesting thing about the magnetic vector potential, the A field, is that it penetrates, it doesn't get shielded.
Magnetic potentialhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_potential
The term magnetic potential can be used for either of two quantities in classical electromagnetism: the magnetic vector potential, A, (often simply called the vector potential) and the magnetic scalar potential, ψ. Both quantities can be used in certain circumstances to calculate the magnetic field.
The more frequently used magnetic vector potential, A, is defined such that the curl of A is the magnetic field B. Together with the electric potential, the magnetic vector potential can be used to specify the electric field, E as well. Therefore, many equations of electromagnetism can be written either in terms of the E and B, or in terms of the magnetic vector potential and electric potential. In more advanced theories such as quantum mechanics, most equations use the potentials and not the E and B fields.
The magnetic scalar potential ψ is sometimes used to specify the magnetic H-field in cases when there are no free currents, in a manner analogous to using the electric potential to determine the electric field in electrostatics. One important use of ψ is to determine the magnetic field due to permanent magnets when their magnetization is known. With some care the scalar potential can be extended to include free currents as well.
Historically, Lord Kelvin first introduced the concept of magnetic vector potential in 1851. He also showed the formula relating magnetic vector potential and magnetic field.
Wave–particle dualityhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality
Wave–particle duality is the concept that every elementary particle or quantic entity may be partly described in terms not only of particles, but also of waves. It expresses the inability of the classical concepts "particle" or "wave" to fully describe the behavior of quantum-scale objects. As Albert Einstein wrote: "It seems as though we must use sometimes the one theory and sometimes the other, while at times we may use either. We are faced with a new kind of difficulty. We have two contradictory pictures of reality; separately neither of them fully explains the phenomena of light, but together they do."[1]
Through the work of Max Planck, Einstein, Louis de Broglie, Arthur Compton, Niels Bohr and many others, current scientific theory holds that all particles also have a wave nature (and vice versa).[2] This phenomenon has been verified not only for elementary particles, but also for compound particles like atoms and even molecules. For macroscopic particles, because of their extremely short wavelengths, wave properties usually cannot be detected.[3]
Although the use of the wave-particle duality has worked well in physics, the meaning or interpretation has not been satisfactorily resolved; see Interpretations of quantum mechanics.
Niels Bohr regarded the "duality paradox" as a fundamental or metaphysical fact of nature. A given kind of quantum object will exhibit sometimes wave, sometimes particle, character, in respectively different physical settings. He saw such duality as one aspect of the concept of complementarity.[4] Bohr regarded renunciation of the cause-effect relation, or complementarity, of the space-time picture, as essential to the quantum mechanical account.[5]
Werner Heisenberg considered the question further. He saw the duality as present for all quantic entities, but not quite in the usual quantum mechanical account considered by Bohr. He saw it in what is called second quantization, which generates an entirely new concept of fields which exist in ordinary space-time, causality still being visualizable. Classical field values (e.g. the electric and magnetic field strengths of Maxwell) are replaced by an entirely new kind of field value, as considered in quantum field theory. Turning the reasoning around, ordinary quantum mechanics can be deduced as a specialized consequence of quantum field theory.
And.... for the second week running....
"TWIT OF THE WEEK"
Is collected by me!
The HVM arrived this morning, hurriedly attached and the motor ran quite well. This " bright spark " decided to ground the Negative! Now it's pitiful....
The motor still runs but with nowhere near the verve, I have ordered a couple of replacement units, and another slow boat sets it's lonely sail for the UK.
Cheers Graham.
Addendum.
It seems the Black wire is the " HOT " one, not the Red one, as I naturally assumed it would be !!
With only 20 Kv the motor takes an age to speed up, BUT does seem to accelerate faster in Clockwise rotation with HOT facing North. Is this the correct direction for your hypothesis?
Dear All.
First batch of 8 x 50 mm diameter spheres arrived today, they're a little lighter in weight @ 22 grams each whereas the Brass ones weigh 55 grams.
I'm going to make another lighter rotor as the new spheres are nearly 2 mm larger in diameter and I will use my trusty dividing head to accurately position the sockets.
That's all for now folks......
Cheers Graham.
I'm interested in these spheres.
Are they really stainless steel? (some SS alloys are ferromagnetic)
Do they have a seam or hole? Are they highly polished? Are they chrome plated? Have you drilled one yet... I would like to know the wall thickness.
Dear TinselKoala.
Attached close up showing the joint between the two halves, far from perfect as you can see.
They are Stainless Steel and judging by the use of a powerful Neodymium magnet, beyond 304 but not quite 316. In other words slightly magnetic.
Here's the link on eBay. No mention of electroplating.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/162176736075?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2648&var=461150078748&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I haven't drilled one, no intention of either but they are " bang on " 50 mm diameter and weigh 22 grams so you should be able to calculate the thickness from that?
At £ 0.99 pence each here in the UK I couldn't even think about making my own !!
Cheers Graham.
One for the mathematicians.
I've lost my dividing head tables book.
I have a 90:1 ratio drive into the head.
My division is 16.
I have four plates.
61, 56,52,50,44,43.
41,39,38,37,34.
64,62,59,58,57,54.
53,51,49,47,46.
I need five full revolutions........ but how many holes? ???
Hope you can help.
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.03.16, 13:28:29
One for the mathematicians.
I've lost my dividing head tables book.
I have a 90:1 ratio drive into the head.
My division is 16.
I have four plates.
61, 56,52,50,44,43.
41,39,38,37,34.
64,62,59,58,57,54.
53,51,49,47,46.
I need five full revolutions........ but how many holes? ???
Hope you can help.
Cheers Graham.
Gee that is an old timer... or maybe just a UK standard? Our here in the colonies the usual ratio is 40.
removed
OOPs Smudge is right... been awhile
Ron
Never used a dividing head, had to look it up in Wikipedia to find out about it.
By my calculations you get 4 degrees for each rotation of the hand crank, your 5 rotations give you 20 degrees. You need 22.5 degrees for your division ratio of 16. Hence the plate has to supply that extra 2.5 degrees which is 5/8th of a rotation of the handle. So you use the plate with 64 holes where hole number 40 gives you 5/8th of a turn. But you had better check this out as I could be wrong.
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.03.16, 15:14:07
Never used a dividing head, had to look it up in Wikipedia to find out about it.
By my calculations you get 4 degrees for each rotation of the hand crank, your 5 rotations give you 20 degrees. You need 22.5 degrees for your division ratio of 16. Hence the plate has to supply that extra 2.5 degrees which is 5/8th of a rotation of the handle. So you use the plate with 64 holes where hole number 40 gives you 5/8th of a turn. But you had better check this out as I could be wrong.
Smudge
To coin a very old one!
Nice one Cyril. O0
I managed to get 4 dots on a sample before the lack of " anchorage " threw everything off, made a perfect 90 degrees.
Ron.
Not an antique but Far Eastern origin, thanks for your input.
Cheers Graham.
If this thread is to get anywhere useful we need to investigate the use of electro-chemical means for getting high quantity of charge in or on a body. The suggestion here is to create a half cell consisting of an electrode (e.g. magnesium) within an electrolyte (e.g. salt water), contained within a plastic container. There will be an electrolytic action where positive ions will appear in the electrolyte leaving the electrode negatively charged and an equilibrium position will be reached with the ions clustered around the electrode. If the negative charge on the electrode is suddenly removed we are left with positive charged ions in the electrolyte, and my feeling is this is a means to get high value charge temporarily present for a relatively low voltage pulse. So the suggestion is to have this half cell suspended from the ceiling by a thin wire and to supply it with HV pulses of alternating polarity to see whether it endures force impulses along the E-W direction. Image below. Anyone up for this?
Smudge
Dear Cyril.
I don't have the necessary " ingredients " for this " recipe " .... ;)
" HV pulses of alternating polarity "
By what value of HV are you suggesting ?
Kind regards, Graham.
PS. Mk3 rotor is all " piloted " out but I discovered that I hadn't got a 50 mm hole saw, ordered one today.
Hi Graham,
I don't really know what voltage but I guess between 100 and 1,000. I think it needs perhaps a one shot impulse to start with to see if there is any effect. Then it's a matter of repeating the shots in sync with the movement to try to pump the swings up to higher levels. The alternate polarity is maybe needed at the opposite end of the swing so I see a manually switched pulser giving out those alternate polarity pulses. If it does indeed work then you might need to build a wheel that incorporates half cells instead of your spheres. Don't know whether stainless steel would make a good electrode. If it does then maybe some plastic hemispheres placed over your spheres could contain some electrolyte. Just thinking ahead. Don't want to stop your work, looking forward to seeing your new wheel in action and seeing where that leads.
Best regards
Cyril
For some reason which I haven't yet figured out, I've been saving older style large size magnesium filled flashbulbs.
Would drilling a tiny hole and filling the bulb with saltwater work or does the magnesium need to be in a central core?
The casings are not glass, but some kind of plastic on some, so alternately a number of holes could be drilled in the casing and it can be immersed in a larger vessel with the saltwater.
A while back while doodling, I came up with a spark gap circuit that neatly gives plus or minus pulses from a single polarity supply. I'll see if I can locate it.
ION,
There needs to be an electrical connection to the magnesium, perhaps the ignition filament already does that. The shape of the magnesium is not important but its surface area is. Looks like you could do a quick test with one of those bulbs. I imagine they are not very heavy but the extra mass of the electrolyte might make the sideways deflection too small to detect. Worth a try though.
Smudge
Hi Cyril.
How about a thin rod of Lead wrapped with Sulphuric acid soaked blotting paper?
Cheers Graham.
Hi Graham,
Yes why not, that should work. Better still to keep the weight down would be a piece of copper pipe that has been tinned.
Cyril
Experiment update.
Ok, the new lightweight rotor is finished. I just need the other eight spheres to arrive......... Sooooooon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGG70XbLlXs
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.03.23, 18:29:09
Experiment update.
Ok, the new lightweight rotor is finished. I just need the other eight spheres to arrive......... Sooooooon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGG70XbLlXs
Cheers Graham.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VkrUG3OrPc
How Weight Affects Acceleration - English Units
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0I5d8Z41N0
How does weight affect acceleration? How much faster will a car accelerate if you reduce its weight? This video explains, with the aid of Sir Isaac Newton, how much faster a car will be, theoretically, if you reduce its weight. English units? Unfortunately so.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.03.23, 18:29:09
Experiment update.
Ok, the new lightweight rotor is finished. I just need the other eight spheres to arrive......... Sooooooon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGG70XbLlXs
Cheers Graham.
Thanks Graham, looking very slick O0
What about that 20KV unit you wrecked, what is it, and will it be "up to the job"?
Itsu
Thanks Guys. O0
Regarding experiment 2, how about a triple " A " cell or a " Button " cell suspended from a wire? I had been thinking on the lines of a piece of Lead beaten thin and a small self sealing pouch filled with H2SO4.
Can someone draw me a known to work voltage multiplier circuit so I can derive the 1000 volts from my 240 AC supply please?
Itsu, I'll reply later regarding the HVM I'm on my IPad ATM.
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: Itsu on 2017.03.23, 20:52:54
Thanks Graham, looking very slick O0
What about that 20KV unit you wrecked, what is it, and will it be "up to the job"?
Itsu
Hi Itsu.
Here's a link to the UK eBay listing.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/292029955520?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
It drove the heavier disc reasonably well until I grounded the wrong side.... :-[
Two more on order, we'll have to wait and see.
Cheers Graham.
Thanks for the link Graham.
5W he, i might order one myself, you never know when they come in handy.
Itsu
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.03.24, 11:07:42
Can someone draw me a known to work voltage multiplier circuit so I can derive the 1000 volts from my 240 AC supply please?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI8Yt1AQrH8
...or buy one of these self-defense stun-guns or paralyzers.
Quote from: Itsu on 2017.03.23, 20:52:54
Thanks Graham, looking very slick O0
Indeed ! ...and you thought Grum could make only heavy and grimy contraptions.
Did i?
allthough, when working on his steam engines or half a ton heavy Milling machines, Graham does remind me sometime of "Tim Tooltime Talor"
when he was working on his 8 cylinder hotrod in his garage: "Harr, Harr".
Can't wait to see all spheres installed and spinning up.
Itsu
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.03.20, 17:25:59
If this thread is to get anywhere useful we need to investigate the use of electro-chemical means for getting high quantity of charge in or on a body. The suggestion here is to create a half cell consisting of an electrode (e.g. magnesium) within an electrolyte (e.g. salt water), contained within a plastic container. There will be an electrolytic action where positive ions will appear in the electrolyte leaving the electrode negatively charged and an equilibrium position will be reached with the ions clustered around the electrode. If the negative charge on the electrode is suddenly removed we are left with positive charged ions in the electrolyte, and my feeling is this is a means to get high value charge temporarily present for a relatively low voltage pulse. So the suggestion is to have this half cell suspended from the ceiling by a thin wire and to supply it with HV pulses of alternating polarity to see whether it endures force impulses along the E-W direction. Image below. Anyone up for this?
Smudge
I put up a half cell consisting of a magnesium rod in salt water (plain tap water with some spoons of table salt) and suspended it from the ceiling.
I am tapping it with some positive HV pulses of about 500 to 1000V coming from an ignition coil via a microwave oven diode sourced from a depleted 1.5V AA battery (1.2V left).
No movement seen, but i will be doing some more experiments using also negative pulses etc.
I will put up a more sensitive movement measurement system like a pointer on the bottle and some lines or grid on the below paper sheet.
First video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PG5TXNHSZo&feature=youtu.be
Regards Itsu
Edit, i put up a more clear movement detection grid below the bottle, see 2e picture.
Do you know the reverse leakage current of your diode?
Where did you get the magnesium rod of that size?
The diode is a HVR 1x 3 which has a 0.3uA max. reverse current (if that the leakage current is), see data sheet below.
The magnesium rods (3) i got from Ebay, here:
http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Magnesium-Rods-18mm-x-100mm-99-99-Metal-Sticks-Blocks-Bars-UK-/171259190301?var=&hash=item27dfd7dc1d:m:mbCfSEkcN5QGEIJmeiXNuew
Itsu
Hi Itsu,
If this was a suspended sphere we would be looking to charge and then discharge the sphere's self capacitance. It is only during the charging or discharging phase that there would be any movement. So effectively we would apply a square wave to the sphere and expect movement only during the leading and trailing edge of the square wave. If we applied a fast pulse then any momentum imparted on the leading edge is immediately counteracted by reverse momentum imparted on the trailing edge.
Maybe I was wrong to suggest fast pulses applied to the half cell, perhaps it needs a HV DC supply suddenly connected to the cell :-\. Or maybe the cell idea isn't any better than the sphere :-\. Or maybe there isn't any force anyway :-[.
Your HV scope probe, can that handle DC or is it a capacitive divider? I don't see any switched DC on your scope, only a fast pulse. With that diode there I would have expected to see something more like a sawtooth waveform where there is a fast charge then the slow trailing edge is the discharge through the scope probe.
Smudge
Hmmm.... Spooky...
I too decided this morning to look into Cyril's experiment two.
Pictures attached.
The Microwave oven transformer is pretty much self explanatory!
The cell, as yet not filled with H2 SO4 is a thin piece of beaten Lead inside a small self sealing plastic bag.
I hope to follow with a short video later, once the risk of electrocuting the grandchildren has been eliminated !! :D
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: Smudge on 2017.03.29, 15:02:53
Hi Itsu,
If this was a suspended sphere we would be looking to charge and then discharge the sphere's self capacitance. It is only during the charging or discharging phase that there would be any movement. So effectively we would apply a square wave to the sphere and expect movement only during the leading and trailing edge of the square wave. If we applied a fast pulse then any momentum imparted on the leading edge is immediately counteracted by reverse momentum imparted on the trailing edge.
Maybe I was wrong to suggest fast pulses applied to the half cell, perhaps it needs a HV DC supply suddenly connected to the cell :-\. Or maybe the cell idea isn't any better than the sphere :-\. Or maybe there isn't any force anyway :-[.
Your HV scope probe, can that handle DC or is it a capacitive divider? I don't see any switched DC on your scope, only a fast pulse. With that diode there I would have expected to see something more like a sawtooth waveform where there is a fast charge then the slow trailing edge is the discharge through the scope probe.
Smudge
ok, i just followed what you were proposing in post #205.
I think you are right about the pulses, the cell seems to want to move (both on positive as on negative pulses), but somehow it stalls again like the leading and
trailing edges fighting each other.
The HV probe can handle DC, i guess the time base was way of to see the pulse correctly.
Below a screenshot of a positive pulse (using a full AA battery).
Itsu
Dear All.
It is with a heavy heart that I have to announce " Busted " !
Nothing, not even a minute movement was seen.
Sorry Cyril. :(
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.03.29, 18:22:05
Dear All.
It is with a heavy heart that I have to announce " Busted " !
Nothing, not even a minute movement was seen.
Sorry Cyril. :(
Oh well, thanks for trying. Maybe your Franklin motor will eventually show something, at least there we know what the charge values are if we know the voltage. The half cell idea was a bit of a wild guess.
Smudge
Ditto here, no real movement detected.
not with the positive / negative 500 - 2000V pulses, nor with a 83V supply (my dual 40V PS's in series) steady on, steady off both + as -83V.
It looks like my magnesium rod is all salted up!
Itsu
I wonder what would happen if you used the magnesium rod as an anode and provided a cathode of some kind, and used hydrogen peroxide instead of water in the salt-water electrolyte. (Not for Smudge's experiment, but as a battery....)
;)
Well the reason i had the magnesium rods is for experiments i did on (plain tap) water batteries in this thread here:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3421.msg59987#msg59987
I used these rods with copper as cathode wrapped around the magnesium to power a clock which still runs today (1,3V steady).
The best result was with a graphite rod of the same dimensions as the magnesium rod as a cathode, 1.7V, but current was low.
All with plain tap water though.
Itsu
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.03.29, 20:06:37
I wonder what would happen if you used the magnesium rod as an anode and provided a cathode of some kind, and used hydrogen peroxide instead of water in the salt-water electrolyte. (Not for Smudge's experiment, but as a battery....)
;)
Bass taking pi**tard !!
A colloquial term from Birmingham......... " Workshop of the world " " You can always tell a Brummie, but not very much "
;)
Re match.
Upon tidying up the MOT assembly I noticed one of the connections from the FWBR had broken away, with not knowing when this happened during the experiment I'm going to give it another try.
I'll keep you posted.....
Cheers Graham.
Update....
Sadly, same as yesterday's findings. I even checked the whole circuit by discharging the caps from the Lead plate.
Update.
Franklin motor Mk3 now nearly complete.
Two of the spheres are very badly finished, I've asked for replacements.
Not going to bore everyone with yet another " Spinney " video..... :D
Cheers Graham.
Well
we're not exactly Steeped in franklin motor videos over here....
quite the contrary... they're as rare as hens teeth....
wouldn't mind seeing it run......
unless its a nuisance to do ??
Right, me to, as i said before:
Can't wait to see all spheres installed and spinning up.
Itsu
Ok, Ok.......
Here you are then..... ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkMnY2SsxPk
:)
Graham, it runs great, its a beauty.
Glad you decided to make a video of it, thanks.
Itsu
Hi Grum
Very nice indeed, you could try a bit of reflective material on the top face of the perspex disc and shine your laser taco downwards.
When using this microwave oven diode in smudge suspended half cell test, i noticed in the data sheet of this HVR-1x-3 diode it has a max. forward voltage drop of 11V.
I found this very high as normal silicon diodes have a 0.6V forward voltage drop, but i understand this is a feature of these HV diodes.
As i just ran across a youtube video on how to use a scope as a V-I curve tracer ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWY-pakm_OM ) i wanted to try out this myself.
I use my scope in XY display mode and used my current probe for the current (you could also use a csr).
Below is a screenshot of the curve trace of this HV diode which shows that my diode has a forward voltage drop of about 7V.
Further below is a curve trace of a normal 1N4148 signal diode which shows a forward voltage drop of 0.6V.
Could come in handy to test unknown (HV) diodes.
Regards Itsu
Many thanks for the compliments guys. :)
For some strange reason I seem to have lost the typing cursor, any ideas on what I might have done? It's working at OU.Com.
Ok as the motor is virtually complete, just waiting for the HVM's now. Who would like to build the accelerometer? I was thinking about counting pulses over a timed interval.
One for TK.
How good a shield would CoAx be with 20 Kv on the inner conductor? I have some really heavy duty stuff from my CB radio days.
Cheers Graham.
Grum, nice work on your projects
Itsu
HV diodes used to be made of a stack of pellets of ordinary >1000PIV diodes. I don't know if that is still the case with newer technology.
I have an old large Tek and a Heathkit curve tracer, but my favorite is the simple homemade curve tracer using a high voltage (1500V) low current transformer, a Variac and some current limiting resistors. I like this for testing the breakdown or avalanche of HV transistors and diodes in a non-destructive way,
Update.
HVM's arrived whilst on the school run, the motor runs but not as fast as with the VdG.
They are specified at 20,000 VDC. I have no means of measuring such a high voltage, we'll just have to take their word for it!
Cheers Graham.
QuoteHow good a shield would CoAx be with 20 Kv on the inner conductor? I have some really heavy duty stuff from my CB radio days.
Like RG-8? I dunno, could give it a try.
QuoteThey are specified at 20,000 VDC. I have no means of measuring such a high voltage, we'll just have to take their word for it!
Well, you could use your extra spheres to make a sphere gap and get pretty close that way. Or use another of the techniques described here:
http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/hvmeasurements/
But you have to be careful with those modules. I don't know about the one you have but some of the cheap Chinese ones will try to raise their voltage if "open-circuited" on the output, to the point where the internal insulation may break down.
For tachometry... you should be able to detect each spark from stator sphere to rotor sphere with your scope. Clip a piece, like six inches square, of aluminum foil to the scope probe and hang it a few feet away from the motor, of course being very careful not to let your HV spark to the foil! This should allow the detection of the collapsing E field as each spark happens. Then with a little math you can derive the rotor speed from the frequency of the spark detections.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.03.30, 17:53:36
Ok, Ok.......
Here you are then..... ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkMnY2SsxPk
:)
Hi Graham,
As you are near to doing the wanted experiment here is my take on the preferential rotation directions. If you can demonstrate that all four situations give the wanted result then I think it can be concluded that there is indeed an influence from the Earth's magnetism. However I would not be surprised if the experiments are not conclusive in that there could be an inbuilt bias for a preferential direction that is greater than the field influence. We'll see.
Smudge
Hi Cyril.
A step closer !! ;) O0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koJ0qHNWlBM
Cheers Graham.
Hi Graham,
Looking good! If you have any toroidal cores you could run the earthy connection (positive?) through the core and have some toroidal turns on the core. That will then be a step-up transformer with a 1 turn primary. You should be able to see the individual current pulses on a 'scope and can of course use their timings as a measure of rotation speed times 16.
Smudge
Dear All.
I was hoping that perhaps another member of the forum could " knock up " the electronics to see this experiment through.
A small " Hall effect " transistor into a timer/counter affair would be great. I'm totally unfamiliar with these newer gizmos, like Slider has been demonstrating recently. The " 555 alike " with simple LED/LCD display would be great.
As I see it a controlled/consistent start mechanism and count the number of revolutions over a given time would prove Cyril's theory one way or the other.
Oh, I forgot to ask. Is/does the HT layout appear adequate to remove doubt about its influence on the rotor?
Kind regards, Graham.
You might be able to get a pedometer at your local dollar store. These can be easily hacked to make a rudimentary counter. They have a little weighted switch the contacts of which can be brought out to count and tally external events. They usually also have a reset button. With a few protection diodes and a resistor, the switch input might even trigger from the electrostatic field of a sphere whizzing by.
I have hacked one of these in the past to perform a counting function just to see if it could be done. Only problem is it may not count to a high enough value for you.
I don't think any of the methods of counting the sphere-sphere discharges will be reliable, because the motor might "miss" and experience double discharges (or noisy discharges).
If I were you, I'd go to a junk yard (or that musty place in your shed) and dig out an old/broken VCR.
Inside, there are reflective tape-reel sensors, that you can use to sense the rotations optically.
The pedometer idea is an interesting one, perhaps because i'm sure i've seen them at the dollar store and am intrigued about repurposing anything like that.
VCR's were/are treasure troves. They have good long distance matched I/R LED's in them too,
Yep, the '555-A-Like' would be an option and thanks for including it in your thoughts.
That's part of the idea of the thing, to have the core functionality of the timer expanded to do other measurements and show them on the screen.
There are 7 analog inputs, 13 digital input/outputs and even PWM on some pins of an Arduino Nano, so such an idea would be a good addition.
A Hall effect sensor can trigger a counter and be timed for how ever long you wish to sample the rotation data.
By having 2 pots on it already, the timings can be set and either auto triggered on the first pulse change, or you could manually trigger for a timed period when the DUT reaches top speed. Similar to a RPM meter but with more flexibility.
It would be a good time to change the firmware to a menu system, then other useful gadget items can be added.
I'll sort out the firmware and upload a demo video when it's running, if it sounds like a plan.
Guys, such an overwhelming response !! Thank you. O0
We're not really interested in knowing how fast the rotor is spinning, we really want to know how much quicker it is in say, CCW versus CW rotation over a given time. I just used 5 minutes as an arbitrary figure.
So, with this in mind..... I have been thinking of making a simple lever that will push a vertical rod ( fixed to the rotor ) either to the left or right and in doing so also triggers the start function.
This start function should ideally, operate not just the timer/counter but also a relay to energise the HVM too.
The outcome, hopefully, is that we should see a different count ( CCW CW ) dependant on the motors orientation thus proving/disproving Cyril's theory.
Have I made sense ? :) Sadly my fingers just can't keep up with the pace my mind's running at !! :D
Cheers Graham.
Yes, you made sense explaining your idea, but I must object to it on the basis that any mechanical interference with the disk's rotation will decrease the credibility of the result.
That's why I am a strong proponent of
contactless methods for counting these rotations.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.02, 16:18:40
We're not really interested in knowing how fast the rotor is spinning, we really want to know how much quicker it is in say, CCW versus CW rotation over a given time. I just used 5 minutes as an arbitrary figure.
Due to the properties of calculus, any inclusion of a time period during which the angular velocity of the disk remains constant, will decrease the precision of the meaning of your result (e.g. how many times the disk turns in a 5min period).
In other words, don't include periods, during which the disk is
not accelerating (...or close to it).
Quote from: verpies on 2017.04.02, 17:24:13
Yes, you made sense explaining your idea, but I must object to it on the basis that any mechanical interference with the disk's rotation will decrease the credibility of the result.
That's why I am a strong proponent of contactless methods for counting these rotations.
Due to the properties of calculus, any inclusion of a time period during which the angular velocity of the disk remains constant, will decrease the precision of the meaning of your result (e.g. how many times the disk turns in a 5min period).
In other words, don't include periods, during which the disk is not accelerating (...or close to it).
Dear Verpies.
Fair comments.... O0
I guess you're suggesting I need to find another method of starting the rotor off on it's travels ? Electromagnetic pulse ?
The answer to your second point, I assume, is to find out how long it takes to reach a steady speed and then use a lower figure of time for the actual experiment ?
Kind regards, Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.02, 18:22:27
I guess you're suggesting I need to find another method of starting the rotor off on it's travels ? Electromagnetic pulse ?
You could, but that would be needlessly complex.
If putting the stationary ball
between the rotary balls is able to initiate the rotation, then go for it - just make repeateable positioning stops.
If it is not, then one mechanical impulse to start the rotor is tolerable, especially if it is repeatable. For example a single swing of an initiating pendulum or a ball rolling down a ramp and colliding with your disk to give it a predictable kickstart.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.02, 18:22:27
The answer to your second point, I assume, is to find out how long it takes to reach a steady speed and then use a lower figure of time for the actual experiment ?
Yes
You can also hack an ordinary LED digital clock and make it a counter by bringing out the signal line that normally gets it's sync signal from the 50 Hz mains line, and tie an optical sensor to that line. In your case it will be reading 50 revolutions per second increment , so you will need to work the final reading to the number of elapsed seconds, minutes, hours total that will reflect number of revolutions.
You can work in total elapsed seconds x 50 = # of revolutions
With a single piece of reflective tape on the rim of the disc:
10 seconds elapsed = 500 revolutions (10 x 50)
one hour elapsed = 50 x 3600 = 180,000 revolutions.
five minutes three seconds elapsed = (300 x 50)+ (3 x50) = 15150 revolutions.
For a long run, the +/- 50 count precision may be adequate
You could also put 50 pieces of reflective tape around the outside of the disc so that 1 sec = 1 revolution
Or divide the revs with tape any way you like.
The particular clock in the schematic does not have a seconds digit, but some do
See attachment
Small battery operated analog clock movements can also be hacked into revolution counters and this may be easier since the escapement on some advances one second per pulse, you can bring out the leads from the coil in the clock and have external events as the input to the coil.
QuoteYou can also hack an ordinary LED digital clock and make it a counter by bringing out the signal line that normally gets it's sync signal from the 50 Hz mains line
Now that's a bit of gold there !
Makes easy sense...I dare say Hollywood have made good use of that nugget.
Been redoing the 555-A-Like code. After getting it ready for testing, I now have the odd situation of the Adafruit SSD1306 library producing gibberish on the screen. The U8g library works fine with its test code...scratching my head on this one and it produced bouts of Tourette Syndrome for the electronics hobbyist !
I'd like to upgrade it anyway and your project Graham seems ideal.
So will likely rewrite things to use the u8g method, as even older Arduino IDE's don't work with the Adafruit ibrary.
???
Ran into similar troubles with the ILI9341 library.
Might ditch the OLED and use an ST7735.
Can I throw any more useless numbers at you guys ? LOL
To energise the HVM you could use a normally closed microswitch ?
That would be mounted on the arm and therefore become open, powering the HVM.
Arcade ones have 3 terminals on them (most probably do), with both N/O and N/C options.
Quote from: Slider2732 on 2017.04.03, 03:32:40
Now that's a bit of gold there !
Makes easy sense...I dare say Hollywood have made good use of that nugget.
Been redoing the 555-A-Like code. After getting it ready for testing, I now have the odd situation of the Adafruit SSD1306 library producing gibberish on the screen. The U8g library works fine with its test code...scratching my head on this one and it produced bouts of Tourette Syndrome for the electronics hobbyist !
I'd like to upgrade it anyway and your project Graham seems ideal.
So will likely rewrite things to use the u8g method, as even older Arduino IDE's don't work with the Adafruit ibrary.
???
Ran into similar troubles with the ILI9341 library.
Might ditch the OLED and use an ST7735.
Can I throw any more useless numbers at you guys ? LOL
To energise the HVM you could use a normally closed microswitch ?
That would be mounted on the arm and therefore become open, powering the HVM.
Arcade ones have 3 terminals on them (most probably do), with both N/O and N/C options.
Dear Mark
Many thanks for inspiring me to get back into Arduino stuff. Although still a novice C++ programmer, I was able to build up a program for the 17 bit dual slope TC500 A to D, and even write a library for it that works.
Also rewrote a library for ICM7218C display driver as the available ICM7218A library was a different animal and would not function with the C versions.
While we're throwing numbers around I recently tested some MAX6675 K 1024 deg C thermocouple devices (around $2 USD) for future use in ECAT type testing, as well as the ADS1115 16 bit 4 channel variable gain A/D converter. Also scratched the surface of Raspberry Pi, and Pi Zero.
I will be very interested in your code, when you get it finished.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paper path sensing switches from old laser or dot matrix printers require very light force to activate, so could operate off a cam on Grahams device with only a tiny load of the disc.
Alternately there are a lot of optical sensor send /receive units on those old printers which could be adapted to be interrupted by a tab on the wheel.
I think I'd like to test bringing out the coil leads from one of those battery clock movements and see what the upper limit of counting frequency would be by running it off a SGen..........when I get the time. Nice thing about that approach is it gives a non-volatile reading....holds the value without power until reset!
I wonder if Graham has an upper limit of speed he has attained with the disc?
Regards
Dear All.
My apologies, Monday's are always fraught here.....
Many thanks for the various ideas I'm pretty sure we'll think of something between us.
Dear ION.
I have just checked the rotor, it seems to level off at 55.6 RPM. ( assuming the tachometer is seeing all 16 spheres )
I'm thinking on the lines of a Ball bearing rolling down a slope and hitting the bottom of a rod fixed to the rotor for the starting impulse. This ramp would be fixed via a pivot to ensure accurate results in either direction. If thought out well enough it could also initiate the HVM and counter also.
Kind regards, Graham.
ION - 2 of the screens you kindly sent to me ended up in the following projects:
YouTube Subscribers Counter
Retro LED Games System
Here are links to those vids, which I hope don't show embedded here or they would royally mess up the thread !
Thank you again :)
youtube.com/watch?v=kNl3T7Ls8Z4
youtube.com/watch?v=gC3FJxV7Bzw
Indeed, the idea is to expand on the 555-A-Like system, to incorporate Hall sensing and other sensor based inputs/outputs. Your thermocouple code might well be included if wished and certainly seems like a useful addition.
There are loads of example type projects of sensing, but not an all in one, as far as I can tell.
I think it may be useful to have an Open Source tailored solution for projects that we all work on.
Using a menu system, various tasks could be performed by the same unit, from stopwatch timers to relay switching to Lux measurements, a myriad all in one thing. Just attach a sensor, select and use its functions from the menu.
In Graham's case, such a thing may be useful as a backup measuring tool, an option.
I'll likely post in my Bench area with updated code..all are welcome to add to it though of course as time goes on. Or completely rewrite it lol
For now though....
I like the ball bearing idea Graham. Particularly if you had it fixed at its strike point, giving a known and same starting force from the lever in both directions. You could time how long it takes to reach that max 55.6RPM and already now have partial answers to the direction speeds question.
Dear Mark.
Many thanks for looking into a program to measure rotations against time. This stuff is way out of my comfort zone!
There's been some re kindled interest in the " Aspden effect " ..... Remember this?
https://youtu.be/m85GS5APXfk
After concluding Cyril's experiment I'm thinking of looking at this one again. But just with a flywheel directly connected to the drive motor. Your program would be ideal IMO.
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.05, 12:11:09
Dear Mark.
Many thanks for looking into a program to measure rotations against time. This stuff is way out of my comfort zone!
There's been some re kindled interest in the " Aspden effect " ..... Remember this?
https://youtu.be/m85GS5APXfk
After concluding Cyril's experiment I'm thinking of looking at this one again. But just with a flywheel directly connected to the drive motor. Your program would be ideal IMO.
Cheers Graham.
Hi Graham,
I do hope you will read what David Lawrence has to say on Flywheels in the latest post.
QuoteIf a wheel is spun up having no pattern in its outer rim, then the construction of the form is free of this effect.
All the atom in the wheel are already spinning at a stationary rate.
It is where we introduce new diameters of holes or diameters of rollers, and spin them oppositely.
Ron
Graham said:
QuoteDear ION.
I have just checked the rotor, it seems to level off at 55.6 RPM. ( assuming the tachometer is seeing all 16 spheres )
Dear Graham
At almost one rev per second it is ideal for one of those battery operated clock movements to tally total # of revolutions where you pulse the coil with a switch at each revolution.
Mechanically inclined as you are, you could also bring out a small wire that hooks to the escapement and cams off the wheel to tally total # of complete revolutions. It doesn't take much to trigger the escapement so a very tiny crank or cam would present nearly no load to the wheel.
Alternately a tiny magnet on the escapement and one on the wheel would also trigger.
Regards
Quote from: ION on 2017.04.05, 16:32:19
Graham said:
Dear Graham
At almost one rev per second it is ideal for one of those battery operated clock movements to tally total # of revolutions where you pulse the coil with a switch at each revolution.
Mechanically inclined as you are, you could also bring out a small wire that hooks to the escapement and cams off the wheel to tally total # of complete revolutions. It doesn't take much to trigger the escapement so a very tiny crank or cam would present nearly no load to the wheel.
Alternately a tiny magnet on the escapement and one on the wheel would also trigger.
Regards
Dear ION.
Indeed I could.... I shall have to look next time I'm in our local Pound store.
I felt Mark's project lent itself to something like this, and how about thinking on the lines of a DC Wattmeter ? In real time like a data logger ?
Dear Ron.
At the risk of upsetting Itsu...... " Double Dutch " springs to mind. I didn't really understand what he was driving at !!
Kind regards, Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.05, 17:09:47
Dear Ron.
At the risk of upsetting Itsu...... " Double Dutch " springs to mind. I didn't really understand what he was driving at !!
Kind regards, Graham.
Good Skype Graham... the "moggie" reminded me of Peter Sellers in the Wrong Box...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j73-5LRVHWM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j73-5LRVHWM)
The flywheel is the way forward IMHO, I will send you a vid when I get mine built... don't I wish, LOL
Take care,
Ron
Take an ordinary dollar store laser pointer and "hack" it so that it is supplied by a larger battery so you can turn it on and leave it on. Place this pointer below the disk, pointing upward, so it shines through the clear plastic. Put one or more pieces of black electrical tape on the disk to act as "interruptors" for the beam as the disk turns. There are no electronics in the pointer that can be affected by the electric fields. Construct a simple 555 monostable circuit triggered by a CdS photoresistor or other light sensitive device and place the sensor way up above the disk, like on the ceiling, where the laser beam will strike it. When the disk turns, the black tape bit(s) interrupts the beam once, or several, or many, times per revolution and causes the monostable to trigger. Monitor the triggering frequency using the scope or chart recorder if you have one. Speed logging sorted. Less than 5 dollars in parts, excluding the scope or chart recorder. No biasing of direction mechanically or in sensing system, no physical contact with rotating parts, no chance of blowing expensive instruments from inadvertent contact with EHV.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.05, 19:04:36
Take an ordinary dollar store laser pointer and "hack" it so that it is supplied by a larger battery so you can turn it on and leave it on. Place this pointer below the disk, pointing upward, so it shines through the clear plastic. Put one or more pieces of black electrical tape on the disk to act as "interruptors" for the beam as the disk turns. There are no electronics in the pointer that can be affected by the electric fields. Construct a simple 555 monostable circuit triggered by a CdS photoresistor or other light sensitive device and place the sensor way up above the disk, like on the ceiling, where the laser beam will strike it. When the disk turns, the black tape bit(s) interrupts the beam once, or several, or many, times per revolution and causes the monostable to trigger. Monitor the triggering frequency using the scope or chart recorder if you have one. Speed logging sorted. Less than 5 dollars in parts, excluding the scope or chart recorder. No biasing of direction mechanically or in sensing system, no physical contact with rotating parts, no chance of blowing expensive instruments from inadvertent contact with EHV.
An LED connected to the oscilloscope, and a laser pointer should do it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfitqGLPCUY
Courtazar, welcome to the forum.
We must bear in mind that Graham is looking for a way to tally the total number of revolutions in a given run from startup to finish over some fixed time e.g. 5 minutes, not the tachometer speed of the disc.
You will need a pulse counter of some sort to get a tally. The simplest I could think of were the clock or pedometer counters which would be fed from the optical sensors you and TK proposed.
The PRR (pulse repetition rate) would be about one pulse per second at top speed and much less when starting up, so it is a relatively slow moving disc, less than 60 RPM.
That's about ideal for the small battery operated clock movements or the pedometer.
Regards
Nobody has universal frequency counters or chart recorders any more, I guess. My Philips PM6676 would do the trick. I left behind in Canada a really neat Nixie frequency counter that I used to record revolutions of my magnet motor testbed. And a good chart recorder is hard to beat, since you have a record of time and pulses together right there on the paper.
It would be almost trivial to use an Arduino and an LCD or other display as a pulse counter. And then it could be repurposed for other tasks as well when this experiment is done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4num28k4EnA
All right, if this continues to be a problem then I have built a digital pulse totalizer (counting down from a preset) + a millisecond clock which gets started on the first pulse and stopped when count zero is reached.
I will ship it to Grum upon request, but the cost of the intl shipping will be greater than the cost of the device.
Dear Verpies.
That's wonderful, thanks. O0
This week has been a little hectic, I hope to get into the shop over the weekend. I came to start up the Milling machine and my 20+ year old VFD expired so I've had to get a replacement fitted.
Let me know what the cost of shipping will be please.
Kind regards, Graham.
£42 but I am not expecting you to pay it.
Quote from: verpies on 2017.04.07, 11:47:59
£42 but I am not expecting you to pay it.
That's cheaper than a new set of teeth!!
Dangit.... that's 3 gone in the space of three months..... note to self, stop eating irradiated Tuna....
Guys, why spend so much for a simple counter.
You could easily hack one of these to do the job:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-LCD-Run-Step-Distance-Pedometer-Walking-Calorie-Counter-/301450418892?hash=item462fd85acc:g:JUUAAOSwl8NVcoX0
There are even better units with more digits here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3DFitBud-Walking-3D-Pedometer-Activity-Fitness-Tracker-Calorie-Step-Counter-wi-/162426106898?hash=item25d159b412:g:XncAAOSwSlBYwtW0
You just need to bring the switch out to your wheel or use an optical interrupter. The last one also has a clock built in.
As I said before, I hacked one from the dollar store and it counted pulses just fine.
Or you can get a pulse counter like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/H7EC-BLM-0-999999-Counting-Range-No-voltage-Required-Digital-Counter-H1/282333113337?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D40130%26meid%3Ddb6e58a16be247d7ac5762821b1c068e%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D162201671333
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BQLZR-Digit-Display-Electronic-Accumulating-Counter-0-999999-Range-AC-100-240V/272597486605?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D40130%26meid%3Dcc7408f7eef240aa95d921b796a7c9e7%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D162201671333
http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-56-Red-LED-0-9999-Up-Down-4-Digit-Counter-Pulse-Switch-Input-Signal-DC12V-/291250763941?hash=item43cfe5f8a5:g:E5IAAOSw-jhUImZT
This one comes with the magnetic induction switch:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GEREE-LCD-Frequency-Counters-Pulse-Generators-Digital-Tally-Counter-0-99999-5-/152477718576?hash=item2380615830:g:i8IAAOSwImRYiHRd
http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-8-Blue-LED-3-Digit-Counter-0-999-Up-Down-Pulse-Switch-DC5V-28V-1-150Hz-/331477528272?hash=item4d2d99aed0:g:KKAAAOSwEeFU3A~i
And there are numerous other inexpensive solutions on ebay. I just did a quick search for pulse counters.
Dear ION.
You guys seem to have a much better choice of cheap goods across the pond!
Our " Pound " stores don't carry things like this at all, in fact we have just returned home from ours, nothing of any use, no clocks no Laser pointers.
eBay UK don't have a cheap pedometer either.
Perhaps Verpies could elaborate on the device he's built? It may turn out to be something that could be shared around the members of OUR?
Kind regards, Graham.
Dear Graham
Forget the dollar store pedometers, and read the rest of the ebay links in my prior post for pulse counters. You can do this for about $5 up with free shipping depending on the device quality.
You can even get a purely mechanical device if you don't like the all electronic type:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/W16-Mini-Pulse-Counter-/162201671333?hash=item25c3f916a5:g:WDkAAOSwMmBVm~wF
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.07, 15:17:05
Perhaps Verpies could elaborate on the device he's built? It may turn out to be something that could be shared around the members of OUR?
It is a 12VDC device with a 15 digit LED display that I designed to log the acceleration of a race car (from stop to finish).
TTL Pulses from the car's wheel's ABS sensor are fed into the device and counted/logged onto a removable memory card. The numbert of pulses reflects how far the car has traveled.
The exact time when each pulse occurs is written to the memory card with a microsecond precision.
The device has two counters:
- a pulse/distance counter (7 LED digits)
- a time counter (8 LED digits) MMM:SS:mmm
The pulse (distance) counter's
limit can be preset to any value (N) from a keypad located below the display.
After reset, the first pulse appearing at the input, increments the pulse counter and enables the continuous running of a millisecond clock (which works like a stopwatch).
When the pulse counter counts all the way up to the preset limit N, the millisecond clock gets frozen, yielding the time it took to count these N pulses.
The time of each pulse is also logged to the external memory card (formatted as FAT32) in a CSV file.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.07, 15:17:05
It may turn out to be something that could be shared around the members of OUR?
I doubt it.
It is a custom microcontroller + LED display driver jobbie and it is good only for logging the acceleration/deceleration of mechanical things ...or measuring how long it takes for N pulses to occur.
P.S.
If you can install the attached LCD font on a Windows machine, I can send you a software simulation of this device.
Dear Verpies.
Sounds pretty neat !! O0
Attached is a drawing of my simple starter.
Cheers Graham.
I'm running Windose 10. I think I have a RaR program installed.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.07, 18:13:21
Attached is a drawing of my simple starter.
Yes, simple is beautiful. It could also be a pendulum that swings once and hits sth on that disk.
You can make it even simpler by eliminating the "contact maker" on the ramp, since the first pulse from the optoreflector/optointerrupter on the disk can enable the clock anyway.
P.S.
Were you able to install the font attached to my previous message?
Upon opening it brings up VLC media player.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.07, 18:30:23
Upon opening it brings up VLC media player.
1) Use the program
WinRAR (http://rarlabs.com/download.htm) to open the LCD.rar file.
2) Extract the LCDsquare.ttf file somewhere to your local disk using WinRAR.
3) Copy the LCDsquare.ttf file to your \Windows\Fonts directory using Windows Explorer (other file managers might not work).
Ok. Done.
It seems to work.
It seems to miss the first pulse, am I correct?
Quote from: verpies on 2017.04.07, 19:24:30
Did you figure out what happens when you press the SET button for a long time ?
Yes indeed.... I was trying to do the 1 second, second thing in my head.... :)
No, it writes the first pulse to the memory card. That is a classic N-1 issue.
Did you press the ODOin button 66 times?
Did you figure out what happens when you press the SET button for a long time ?
P.S.
It blinks nicer on WindowsXP. What are you running it on?
Quote from: verpies on 2017.04.07, 19:29:00
No, it writes the first pulse to the memory card. That is a classic N-1 issue.
Did you press the ODOin button 66 times?
Did you figure out what happens when you press the SET button for a long time ?
P.S.
It blinks nicer on WindowsXP. What are you running it on?
Ok. I'll have another play... :)
As stated previously Windows 10.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.07, 19:58:50
As stated previously Windows 10.
Yuck!
If you have an old laptop with WinXP or 2K and a parallel port, most of this stuff could be done on it in software.
Hi Grumage
What are the max rpm that the disk attains when rotating against the A-field, and in the reverse direction, i.e. when "aided" by the A-field ?
Quote from: Cortazar on 2017.04.17, 22:23:45
Hi Grumage
What are the max rpm that the disk attains when rotating against the A-field, and in the reverse direction, i.e. when "aided" by the A-field ?
Dear Cortazar.
Unfortunately the experiment has ground to a halt. The Easter break has seen us doing the grandparent thing trying to entertain the youngsters without the aid of electronics.
A suitable timer and a nice day should see the conclusion, it has been suggested that the experiment should be run outdoors so that nearby objects don't affect the rotor.
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.18, 11:23:18
...trying to entertain the youngsters without the aid of electronics.
:o
Bump
Grum its time to talk again about your Needs for the tachometer or Whatsit? for your Smudge experiment.
Just Hung up with Slyder
He's gonna double check the "needs" here .
and then we move forward .
thanks
Chet
Hi Chet.
Not a Tachometer as such, but something that can count a number of pulses in a preset time. eg. 3 minutes.
We might have missed the weather window though..... 3 full days of sunshine has now given way to rain, our summers probably gone....
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: Chet K on 2017.06.28, 16:29:22
Grum its time to talk again about your Needs for the tachometer or Whatsit? for your Smudge experiment.
I have a gizmo like he needs, which I have first mentioned
here (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3395.msg60585#msg60585) and described
here (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3395.msg60605#msg60605).
doesn't your gizmo weigh a ton ?
heavy and costly To ship??
Grum
fear not, Global warming is in full swing...
get out the umbrella and sandles
How much does a cheap laser pointer, a photoresistor, an Arduino, an LCD display module and a wallwart power supply weigh?
I think this remote counter/totalizer task can be done with about 30 dollars or less in parts, half an hour assembly, and an Arduino sketch of under 50 lines of code.
Quote from: Chet K on 2017.06.28, 17:36:18
get out the umbrella and sandles
More like an umbrella, sou'wester and waders !! :D
Grum
well Tinsel has said with proper preparation [hair dryer] , electrostatic machines can be demonstrated in wet or moist environments.
I am not certain about this test and whether or not the Moisture will hinder the effect due to local area being electrostatically Stifled by
the weather conditions.
Tinsel wrote
Easy peasy
quote
How much does a cheap laser pointer, a photoresistor, an Arduino, an LCD display module and a wallwart power supply weigh?
I think this remote counter/totalizer task can be done with about 30 dollars or less in parts, half an hour assembly, and an Arduino sketch of under 50 lines of code.
end quote
the concern for this is mostly unexpected or unanticipated interference with the test rig and or environment.
if that's good enuff to go ahead.
then we will
and it will be discussed here [the build of the counter] just to be certain.
and shipped to Grum when done
Well, you can put the laser pointer on one side of the room, shining at some part of the apparatus in the center of the room, and have the arduino+LDR+display on the other side of the room, positioned so that the beam from the pointer normally falls on the LDR, and the apparatus turning interrupts the beam while rotating. You can thus sense and count rotations from as far away as the laser pointer can shine.
Quote from: Chet K on 2017.06.28, 16:29:22
Bump
Grum its time to talk again about your Needs for the tachometer or Whatsit? for your Smudge experiment.
Just Hung up with Slyder
He's gonna double check the "needs" here .
and then we move forward .
thanks
Chet
Anyone able to provide a synopsis, bring us all up to date on what you are building, and why ?
Hi Rob.
You remember this?
https://youtu.be/koJ0qHNWlBM
And here is the suggested test protocol.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3395.msg60483#msg60483
There's a few loose ends to tie up, consistent starting actuator, accelerometer and a suitable platform to conduct the experiment.
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.06.30, 11:27:22
Hi Rob.
You remember this?
Yes mate, had a lot going on lately and thanks for the refresher, I remember.
It is an interesting experiment, certainly original, and has a group participation rate that is an indicator in and of itself.
Forward message from Slyder RE Grum's build of Cyril's new experiment.
Slyder
Quote
Demonstration of the software running.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JH9m3Low9c
(3min 56sec)
The camera was on low battery, sorry for the rushed recording.
Output of the 555 timer section is from a pin on the Arduino, which will be a post to clip to on the built unit.
When made, it will 'ship' with running code, plug in and play. Updates to the code will be as and when time permits to make it a multi-use device in the future (different sensors, range finding, temperature/humidity, multimeter type uses). Hence the talk of downloading software...only needed for future updates.
Cheers
Mark
Mark is just about ready to ship .
looking quite amazing ...a beautiful tool for this experiment .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE2qCFhqnfU
what an amazing group of fellows here !!
Awesome work, Mark - as always!
Great work Mark
Regards
Mike 8)
Hello All.
Just a quick note to thank all concerned, the " Gizmo " has arrived safely in North Wales.
Cheers Graham.