Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.21, 17:23:16
Hi Carroll.
Yes indeed, that looks rather a large one.
I have been a bit preoccupied today trying to sort out the mess over at OU. Com. I have actually locked the topic at 18.00 BST today.
If there is still an interest I will open a topic here at OUR, it's sad though because I felt it would bring a few newcomers into this area of research. Hey ho.....
Kind regards, Graham.
Well I'm still building so yeah I'd be interested in somewhere to ask dumb questions other than your skype ;D
I'm told this would be good to do here [unless we get the mess fixed at Stefan's quickly
Quote from: Chet K on 2017.04.21, 23:21:17
I'm told this would be good to do here [unless we get the mess fixed at Stefan's quickly
Cool just got mine running. Tweaking now.
A very interesting circuit. Lighting up the neons on a few milliwatts of input. Sooo many different wave forms but have not seen TKs yet.
Have you seen these? :D
Yes!
Ps stRted using yoke but getting better results on a met glass 25mm torpid.
That first one is a beayooootiful ringdown! I haven't seen anything that pure in mine.
I also have used a little bitty toroid instead of the yoke. I get higher voltages in the spikes with the little toroid, but there isn't room in there for the inner inductor thing that I put in series with the Collector.
Oh, and why don't you use the screensave function on your scope? Just stick a thumbdrive in the front hole and press the little "print" key under the Help button. The file size and image pixel dimensions will be much nicer for forum use.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so5OY5OBoJU
I can't help it. :P
Yes, good idea, please move my posts on this topic over to this thread if possible. O0
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.22, 10:51:08
Yes, good idea, please move my posts on this topic over to this thread if possible. O0
I think you would have to copy paste post.
Peter has a way he moves thyem so they flow with the rest of the thread.
will see if he can do it better than "copy paste" ?
PS
still waiting to hear from Stefan ,will ring him again tomorrow if I don't hear back by then
as I mentioned he is Moving house ATM
Here is Grum's original post at OU.com
Dear All.
Welcome to a new thread dedicated to Nelson Rocha and his Mini Radiant Exciter circuit. Builders most welcome.
I used the Acronym N.R.M.R.E. as it's quite a mouthful and I'm rubbish at typing !! :)
For deeper research might I suggest a visit to Nelson's You Tube channel.
https://www.youtube.com/user/batraquioo0
Here's a couple of Nelson's videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfpG9wFw4iI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjK6OlYO9Aw
It's already very clear that the circuits in the videos differ quite strongly from the posted schematic below.... This is where you guys n gals come in!! ;)
Investigation!!
I built a version some time ago. Video here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6lmd0HKxOw
I found this when my channel suggestions came up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iER4K1O7iMc
Nelson's work has inspired a few! Thank you Nelson Rocha.
Good luck everyone, Graham.
Ok here is my exp today.
Really fun to play with for starters. It sometimes just runs away and wants as much current as it can get then does interesting stuff at 13ma.
I could not get a 300v 4700nf at Jaycar so I have a 100v 4700nf . My transformer I bought today 9v - 240v It was the closest I could get.
Diodes are UF4003
I started with a Yoke as my core for my coils because I had seen TKs work. The wire on mine though was multistrand plastic coated and maybe 30 turns. It was interesting The neon lit at under 1 volt . The best I had today was 5mw of input to light the neon. That was with a metglass core .5mm 50 turns. I'm wondering though if what I'm seeing is what I see when I hold a neon near a slayer exciter? I couldn't measure voltage across the neon. Might just be a bad dmm? I did not see the wave that TK first published (attached) but his wiring was more transformer like so I'm thinking of winding another core. I'll also upload some odd scope shots.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.22, 09:28:21
That first one is a beayooootiful ringdown! I haven't seen anything that pure in mine.
I also have used a little bitty toroid instead of the yoke. I get higher voltages in the spikes with the little toroid, but there isn't room in there for the inner inductor thing that I put in series with the Collector.
Oh, and why don't you use the screensave function on your scope? Just stick a thumbdrive in the front hole and press the little "print" key under the Help button. The file size and image pixel dimensions will be much nicer for forum use.
It's quicker to take a pic with the phone and upload directly than muck about with a thumb drive but I will soon so I can show measurements etc. That wave was fascinating. It just locked in. I could take all the way to 10v but then current would run away. The just lit up in a stable, 2 bars solid, no flickering light. That wave like more current than others. I also attempted the "parametric oscillator" with a bit of rolled up transformer steel as the core. It's hard to tell the difference but things seem stronger but blunter, if that makes any sense at all.
Also transistors I have tried Tip122 MJE13007G (best perf at low voltage) and one other can't remember the name will post when back out on the bench tomorrow. I've been playing with cap values but I think I should be winding on a variety of cores and gauges. Just need a simple design to switch them easily.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.22, 10:03:27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so5OY5OBoJU
I can't help it. :P
Oh man that was funny. I've answered your other Qs at the new thread.
The circuit as it stands is a basic blocking oscillator (aka JT) with a high gain Darlington in place of the standard single transistor used in such circuits. Due to the high gain of the TIP122, the circuit may be very prone to several parasitic oscillation points depending on the bias and other factors.
The use of the 4700 pF capacitor on the secondary of the saturating choke T2 partially rings the secondary making it somewhat resonant.
I have redrawn the original N Rocha circuit that includes the components inside the TIP122 and the possible saturable biasing core of Zephir's hypothesis.
If anyone is interested I will post it here with some additional notes and analysis.
Regards
Quote from: ION on 2017.04.22, 18:58:53
The circuit as it stands is a basic blocking oscillator (aka JT) with a high gain Darlington in place of the standard single transistor used in such circuits. Due to the high gain of the TIP122, the circuit may be very prone to several parasitic oscillation points depending on the bias and other factors.
The use of the 4700 pF capacitor on the secondary of the saturating choke T2 partially rings the secondary making it somewhat resonant.
I have redrawn the original N Rocha circuit that includes the components inside the TIP122 and the possible saturable biasing core of Zephir's hypothesis.
If anyone is interested I will post it here with some additional notes and analysis.
Regards
Dear ION.
Yes please. O0
As TinselKoala has shown in his last video the circuit seems to, is " Harvest " the correct word? Ambient energy.
Kind regards, Graham.
Here is the first draft, drawn with conventional input on left, output on right, rails at top and bottom.
Since the bridge rectifiers were not identified, I left them with "?"
Any errors spotted I will correct in the next release. ?
Has TK posted his ambient energy harvesting data? (or is it implied in that alt snakeoil video)?
From the waveforms I've seen thus far, the circuit seems unstable and will tend to bounce between several operating modes at the slightest external interference or synchronization with ambient externally generated frequencies or static magnetic fields large enough to couple to the core (depending on bias setting).
Hence TK's black box magic trick.
Regards
I'm having trouble reconciling that new schematic with the ones I've seen and used before. In particular the position of the 4700pF capacitor. Maybe I'm just not seeing it right, but in the topologies in the original schematic and in Itsu's redraw this capacitor is across the AC inputs to the "charger" FWB as well as one of the windings of the toroid.
I'm willing to try just about anything though.
(I wouldn't call the alt.snakeoil demonstration "ambient energy harvesting". The disturbance in the Force from the Black Box is just kicking the very sensitive NRJT blocking oscillator into another mode of operation; the power that is brightening the neon is coming from the JT's power supply. You can't really see it in the video but the current draw goes up quite a bit when the BB is switched on. With other settings of the input power and the pot, the BB can "kill" the NRJT's oscillations completely.)
Looking into it now.
OK found the problem and reloaded it with a ver1.01
I fixed two errors on my redraw. I had the FWB going to ground, should have gone to the diode decoupled source. Then the 4700pF needed to go after the small inductor It was a first draft so thanks for catching that.
If you change the wire passing through the core in the original hand drawn schematic to a tiny inductor you will see that the capacitor needs to be after this inductor. The collector of the transistor always goes directly to the CW of T2.
All outputs are after this small inductor, which nowhere appears on the original (unless it is the wire passing through the T2 core).
In the last posted drawing (you posted?) it is revised with an inductor, but the inductor is between the collector and the CW winding, which position does not agree with the original hand drawn schematic.
If we can agree that the small inductor is represented by the wire passing through the toroid T2, then we may all be on the same page.
Regards
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.22, 23:12:49
I'm having trouble reconciling that new schematic with the ones I've seen and used before. In particular the position of the 4700pF capacitor. Maybe I'm just not seeing it right, but in the topologies in the original schematic and in Itsu's redraw this capacitor is across the AC inputs to the "charger" FWB as well as one of the windings of the toroid.
I'm willing to try just about anything though.
(I wouldn't call the alt.snakeoil demonstration "ambient energy harvesting". The disturbance in the Force from the Black Box is just kicking the very sensitive NRJT blocking oscillator into another mode of operation; the power that is brightening the neon is coming from the JT's power supply. You can't really see it in the video but the current draw goes up quite a bit when the BB is switched on. With other settings of the input power and the pot, the BB can "kill" the NRJT's oscillations completely.)
Mine certainly also is not unstable it jumps around as you are turning the pot but doesn't seem . All I could come up was a hidden exciter inside the case interfering or attenuating. I haven't seen evidence of harvesting.
T
Has anyone actually seen any "HV Radiant" from the output side yet? I haven't, but that could be down to the little transformer I'm using, or circuit discrepancies.
However my own "Mini Exciter" does produce plenty "HV radiant" whatever that is. And with lots fewer parts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgndINJHnd0
Quote from: JimBoot on 2017.04.22, 23:44:37
Mine certainly also is not unstable it jumps around as you are turning the pot but doesn't seem . All I could come up was a hidden exciter inside the case interfering or attenuating. I haven't seen evidence of harvesting.
T
If I try to use 10v input the current draw is excessive and the transistor heats up really fast. Plus I haven't seen anything quite like that nice squarish waveform with the beautiful ringing either. I do think I'm seeing some changes in performance, possibly due to degradation of the transistor from the 90 volt or greater spikes. Even though the first transistor hasn't failed-hard, I just now changed it out for a fresh one.
I can certainly adjust it to where it shows ringing but not exactly like yours.
Quote from: ION on 2017.04.22, 23:37:40
Looking into it now
The main discrepancy seems to be in how you have the AC inputs of the charger FWB connected. I think.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.22, 23:55:47
The main discrepancy seems to be in how you have the AC inputs of the charger FWB connected. I think.
Yes, I changed it and re-upoaded with a new ver #1.01.
I think I described how the error crept in with my earlier post
Thanks TK.
By the way... has anyone figured out why we are doing this?
I mean, what are the claims or phenomena we are supposed to be reproducing or exploring? It's fun to make pretty coloured squiggly lines on expensive test equipment, no argument there. But seriously.... whaaaat?
Ambient energy harvesting (when there is energy in the ambient to be harvested) using tuned circuits? Been there, done that.
Unstable low voltage Joule Thiefs? Been there, done that.
"HV Radiant" circuits? Been there, done that.
Wireless power transfer? Been there, done that.
Blown up and burned out lots of components? Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, in spades.
About the only thing I haven't done, earlier and, IMnotsoHO better, is to sell my stuff to foreign investors.
Quote from: ION on 2017.04.22, 23:37:40
Looking into it now.
OK found the problem and reloaded it with a ver1.01
I fixed two errors on my redraw.
If you change the wire passing through the core in the original hand drawn schematic to a tiny inductor you will see that the capacitor needs to be after this inductor. The collector of the transistor always goes directly to the CW of T2.
All outputs are after this small inductor, which nowhere appears on the original.
In Itsu's drawing, the inductor is between the collector and the CW winding, which does not agree with the original hand drawn schematic.
The two earlier schematics are thus not in agreement AFAIK.
I'm to blame for the position of the inductor in Itsu's drawing, his original did not include this inductor. It is where I put it on my test build.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.23, 00:27:43
By the way... has anyone figured out why we are doing this?
I mean, what are the claims or phenomena we are supposed to be reproducing or exploring? It's fun to make pretty coloured squiggly lines on expensive test equipment, no argument there. But seriously.... whaaaat?
Ambient energy harvesting (when there is energy in the ambient to be harvested) using tuned circuits? Been there, done that.
Unstable low voltage Joule Thiefs? Been there, done that.
"HV Radiant" circuits? Been there, done that.
Wireless power transfer? Been there, done that.
Blown up and burned out lots of components? Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, in spades.
About the only thing I haven't done, earlier and, IMnotsoHO better, is to sell my stuff to foreign investors.
Dear TK
You lead with a very good question. After reviewing a few of NR's videos and getting totally bored I'm thinking of bowing out before I bow in too far, but will probably get kicked out for that comment.
I'm sure you've seen it all and are quite tired of the "radiant" claims as am I.
About 60 years ago I built one of those radio circuits that scavenged it's supply off a local AM high power transmitter. It's been downhill since then LOL.
So I ask you, where do we go from here? For right now, TR's device looks interesting to me.
Kind regards
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.23, 00:27:43
By the way... has anyone figured out why we are doing this?
I mean, what are the claims or phenomena we are supposed to be reproducing or exploring? It's fun to make pretty coloured squiggly lines on expensive test equipment, no argument there. But seriously.... whaaaat?
Ambient energy harvesting (when there is energy in the ambient to be harvested) using tuned circuits? Been there, done that.
Unstable low voltage Joule Thiefs? Been there, done that.
"HV Radiant" circuits? Been there, done that.
Wireless power transfer? Been there, done that.
Blown up and burned out lots of components? Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, in spades.
About the only thing I haven't done, earlier and, IMnotsoHO better, is to sell my stuff to foreign investors.
For the glory? It's a good learning circuit for me to tinker with. I'll spend time swapping components and winds to see how efficient I can get it.
Well, connecting the inductor as shown in ION's diagram made a big difference in the maximum voltage obtainable on the Collector spike.
Also, the polarity of the inductor makes a difference (as I suppose it should if it is affecting the toroid parametrically.)
Two scopeshots, both at 2.0 volts input, inductor wired one polarity and then the opposite polarity, pot tuned for maximum p-p spike amplitude.
Quote from: ION on 2017.04.23, 00:47:26
Dear TK
You lead with a very good question. After reviewing a few of NR's videos and getting totally bored I'm thinking of bowing out before I bow in too far, but will probably get kicked out for that comment.
I'm sure you've seen it all and are quite tired of the "radiant" claims as am I.
About 60 years ago I built one of those radio circuits that scavenged it's supply off a local AM high power transmitter. It's been downhill since then LOL.
So I ask you, where do we go from here? For right now, TR's device looks interesting to me.
Kind regards
Yes.... the TR device. I ran the sim on my LTSpice IV (running on Linux) and I do see a minuscule change in the peak output voltage when changing the +11 to -11. It isn't clear to me though how an electronics modelling program can encompass and accurately model a variable that is... shall we say... speculative to the extreme. This would appear to violate Ibison's Law of simulations. The results with actual apparatus may show some tens or hundreds of microvolts difference depending on orientation, but how is it possible actually to attribute this change to the hypothesized cause, and not to some other "third variable" that hasn't been controlled for? Personally I don't want to participate in that discussion myself as I have a string of PMs from TR that effectively turned me completely off, but I will make this comment about proper control experiments (rather than mere demonstrations of an effect) that must be performed in order to assign causality.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.23, 01:11:32
Yes.... the TR device. I ran the sim on my LTSpice IV (running on Linux) and I do see a minuscule change in the peak output voltage when changing the +11 to -11. It isn't clear to me though how an electronics modelling program can encompass and accurately model a variable that is... shall we say... speculative to the extreme. This would appear to violate Ibison's Law of simulations. The results with actual apparatus may show some tens or hundreds of microvolts difference depending on orientation, but how is it possible actually to attribute this change to the hypothesized cause, and not to some other "third variable" that hasn't been controlled for? Personally I don't want to participate in that discussion myself as I have a string of PMs from TR that effectively turned me completely off, but I will make this comment about proper control experiments (rather than mere demonstrations of an effect) that must be performed in order to assign causality.
I agree with some of your observations. The sim is meant to help tune a ferrite core by plugging in numbers from the bench, not to actually simulate real gravity effect. Then you must go back to the bench and retune the actual device.
I do also have reservations about noise pickup and shielding and the rigorous controls that must be applied before a effect can be claimed as real. I was employed in the real world designing commercial uV level laboratory equipment for half a lifetime, discrete chopper stabilized amplifiers for thermocouple level signals, am very familiar with the errors that can creep in.
But I guess this is off topic so we can continue elsewhere, and Grum can delete.
Regarding your scopeshots, are you looking at the collector voltage? if so there is a noticeable change in slope when switching positions. Try to look at collector current and notice the effect on the ramp up of current when switching positions. Stretch your horizontal and vertical so one ramp up fills the screen corner to corner. WE don't need to see the other stuff for this test. This makes it easier to see the slope change. May require a CSR. I'm sure you know all this, but others may not. Also put a reasonable resistive load on both outputs so the transistor can work a little harder.
Kind Regards
P.S. see my post here about hazardous base drive current:
http://overunity.com/17242/replication-of-mini-radiant-exciter-circuit-of-nelson-rocha/msg505242/#msg505242
Digging a little deeper, the max allowable base drive current is 120 mA. The maximum reverse voltage is 5 volts per the datasheet.
There is no resistance to limit the peak current drive capability from the core to the base since it is capacitively coupled with some rather large values. Whatever current is stored in the T2 core during the core charging ramp up will be discharged into the base when Q1 cuts off, as that is the load with the fewest diode drops.
This is a needless waste of power from T2 since much less base drive will turn Q1 on efficiently, The DC current gain minimum is 1000 per the datasheet so 1 milliamp base drive will allow for 1000mA of collector current . Since the maximum collector current For TIP122 is 5 Amps, 5 mA is adequate to saturate the Q1 output transistor to it's max collector current rating.
Assuming the circuit is run from a 12 volt battery, absolute max ratings would be approx. 5 A x (12-Vsat) = 52.5 Watts output power capability. Does anyone know the actual output power capability vs power drain of the circuit?
What is it's design point? What does Mr Rocha claim?
Assuming best case of saturated turn on, with no power dissipated in switching, the transistor will then be dissipating Vsat of 1.5 volts x 5 amps or 7.5 watts so a heatsink large enough to keep the device within the temp max of about 130 C is needed.
We have not even touched on the possible destruction of the base by exceeding the 5 volts reverse rating.
Of course all this is moot if there are no specs on the device and it is only intended work once in awhile for just a few minutes to light up a NE-2 (uA) before the base is degraded.
Am I the only one who enjoys curling up by the fire with a good data sheet...a true nerd?
One more comment on that other project: Please don't misunderstand me. It is often far easier to demonstrate that an effect is real, than it is properly to assign causality for the effect. Digging a microvolt signal out of the noise floor is one thing, but trying to figure out what actually causes the signal you are seeing may be a horse of a different color altogether. In the case of working on conventional circuits it may not be so important, because usually you will know what the cause is, and usually you won't get a Nobel prize for re-writing the physics books if you do catch the cause. However, obviously, in the case of interest here, things are a little different. Merely demonstrating the effect is apparently rather trivial, albeit requiring sensitive equipment and extra care on the part of the experimenter. Definitely assigning the cause of that effect to invisible pink unicorn farts, polarized aetheric ley line vibrations or the flow of space is far from trivial.
Re operating near or beyond the limits of the transistor, yes. I just blew out one of mine by exceeding the Base-Emitter voltage by too much. I can't imagine running this circuit on a 12 volt battery. I have my current-limiting power supply set at about 1.8 amps and it is easy to get to that limit with even only around 2 volts, when the pot is turned all the way up.
Well,it's running :D
Seems to work ok,and quite stable in my case.
Turning the voltage up above 3v,blows out the neon,when the pot is turned all the way down.
Have not toasted a transistor yet-->yet.
I also went with horizontal coil's,instead of the coil through the center of the toroid.
I do notice about a 20mA decrease in current draw,when those horizontal coils are removed from the circuit,but that also results in a duller NE2.
So now that Vortex has re-drawn the circuit,we can see it is just a JT,with a heap of other part's that would dissipate power-->a loss in other words.
Not seeing anything special about this circuit yet,but only just got it up and running.
Going to build a standard JT,with the same step up transformer on it,and do a side by side comparison.
Video 1 up soon.
Brad
The video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elVI05A_q_I
Brad
Hi Brad.
Nice video. O0
To the uninitiated it would be considered a " miracle " running without a power supply.
I assume we can attribute its self running ability to the " super cap " installed at the front end?
On a more serious note, what's the cause of the " package mode " ?
Cheers Grum.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.23, 10:37:16
Hi Brad.
Nice video. O0
To the uninitiated it would be considered a " miracle " running without a power supply.
I assume we can attribute its self running ability to the " super cap " installed at the front end?
Cheers Grum.
Yes indeed Grum, that is a super cap on the input.
After watching the video again,i see i did not mention that-which i thought i did.
QuoteOn a more serious note, what's the cause of the " package mode " ?
I do not know,nor do i know how you could actually achieve that---but i have lol.
You would think that once the transistor stopped oscillating,it would remain off.
But as you can see,it fires up again ???
Brad
Well Brad.
This was one of the " curiosities " that some of us witnessed previously.
Here's Nelson's reply to what has transpired so far.
Quote from Nelson Rocha at OU.Com today.
" Hi everbody ,
I could see by last updates , most are trying lit up neon bulb :) Is there any special reason for this to happen?
I have already said, and I repeat:
The purpose of this circuit is not to ignite neon bulb lol, even because in the original circuit there is no neon connected at the transformer output, but near the input of the circuit near the capacitor C5 maybe people should consider search by negative resistance theme and will find better explanation to i use the neon bulb.
I already describe that hv radiant output when circuit is property tuned is capable to charge a capacitor just by one wire without apparently increase the input , or even be used to transmit electric power by one wire . In the video we could see just one wire connected to one coil and be received by other isolated coil .
https://goo.gl/photos/mXtpKMi9L69WVjVBA
We can see too how different are the wave shot in scope from most of replications until now, and without burned transistors :)
The circuit could do that operation and in same time recharge a battery without impact in input . I just saw one person show that until now
call's MAC and he made one video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iER4K1O7iMc&t=17s
Like i said since first beginning this circuit is just to be study , And is part of a learning process to other nice project, but..... i know "is only a JT" like most pro people say , and in that way i just could answer to "Pro's" replicators :
don't need spend their precious time in something that is so simple and trivial , just ignore ;) and go forward in other projects.
I just say that because already saw some "elite" replicators at end of some days of experiment with this circuit, start complain why are spend their time with something is only a simple JT and they have better alternatives circuits to lit several neon bulbs .
To the people real interested i know they will have moments of fun and learning with that circuit not any doubt .
Nelson Rocha "
End quote.
It seems we might be "missing " something ?
Cheers Grum.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.23, 12:52:35
Well Brad.
This was one of the " curiosities " that some of us witnessed previously.
Here's Nelson's reply to what has transpired so far.
Quote from Nelson Rocha at OU.Com today.
" Hi everbody ,
I could see by last updates , most are trying lit up neon bulb :) Is there any special reason for this to happen?
I have already said, and I repeat:
The purpose of this circuit is not to ignite neon bulb lol, even because in the original circuit there is no neon connected at the transformer output, but near the input of the circuit near the capacitor C5 maybe people should consider search by negative resistance theme and will find better explanation to i use the neon bulb.
I already describe that hv radiant output when circuit is property tuned is capable to charge a capacitor just by one wire without apparently increase the input , or even be used to transmit electric power by one wire . In the video we could see just one wire connected to one coil and be received by other isolated coil .
https://goo.gl/photos/mXtpKMi9L69WVjVBA
We can see too how different are the wave shot in scope from most of replications until now, and without burned transistors :)
The circuit could do that operation and in same time recharge a battery without impact in input . I just saw one person show that until now
call's MAC and he made one video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iER4K1O7iMc&t=17s
Like i said since first beginning this circuit is just to be study , And is part of a learning process to other nice project, but..... i know "is only a JT" like most pro people say , and in that way i just could answer to "Pro's" replicators :
don't need spend their precious time in something that is so simple and trivial , just ignore ;) and go forward in other projects.
I just say that because already saw some "elite" replicators at end of some days of experiment with this circuit, start complain why are spend their time with something is only a simple JT and they have better alternatives circuits to lit several neon bulbs .
To the people real interested i know they will have moments of fun and learning with that circuit not any doubt .
Nelson Rocha "
End quote.
It seems we might be "missing " something ?
Cheers Grum.
Well i guess the neon is being used to see this HV radiant energy output-->what ever radiant energy is suppose to be C.C
I guess any type of energy that radiates out from a source,could be called radiant energy O0
I have placed an LED across !what is T1 ! in IONs circuit drawing,and now we have a new situation :o
Will get to that tomorrow night,as time for me to hit the hay.
Looks like there is a new project coming up,but nothing to do with free energy--more like broken bone's,by the sounds of it lol.
I dont know how i get talked into these thing's
At 48 years of age,things start to snap a little easier :D
Seems a couple of my close friend's,want to start a lawn mower racing club,and i have been talked into building and racing one.
Anyway,back tomorrow night.
Brad
well
sometimes cutting the grass the fastest.....Um...yeah sooo...
HHmmm , naaah yer gonna have a hard time talking the wife into this one.
O0
we only live once...put wings on it too... :D
Has anybody (Besides Nelson that is) seen any hint of "HV Radiant" at the output of this circuit? With the neon on the output transformer removed, of course, and with or without the FWB on the transformer's output winding.
This is as high as I have dared to go (no neon, FWB or other load on transformer output). This is at 2 volts input at about 500 mA draw:
Dear TinselKoala.
What is "HV Radiant" ? Terminology undefined, like Aether??
That's one heck of a spike though.
Taking an excerpt from Nelson's last message.
" but near the input of the circuit near the capacitor C5 maybe people should consider search by negative resistance theme and will find better explanation to i use the neon bulb. "
Now as I see it C5 is an additional store, BUT can it be classed as in parallel with C1 as there's a Diode D1 between them? Is the NE2 flashing over and putting some charge into C5 ?
" negative resistance "
Suggestions ?
Cheers Graham.
..... and with my 8-diode FWB on the transformer output, but with no load on the FWB... this is the maximum I could get. A bit more drive from the pot setting and it falls back abruptly to about 400 V, so it is possible that something is breaking down, like transformer insulation or diodes.
Also this is the current state of the circuit I'm using.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.23, 17:38:13
Dear TinselKoala.
What is "HV Radiant" ? Terminology undefined, like Aether??
That's one heck of a spike though.
Taking an excerpt from Nelson's last message.
" but near the input of the circuit near the capacitor C5 maybe people should consider search by negative resistance theme and will find better explanation to i use the neon bulb. "
Now as I see it C5 is an additional store, BUT can it be classed as in parallel with C1 as there's a Diode D1 between them? Is the NE2 flashing over and putting some charge into C5 ?
" negative resistance "
Suggestions ?
Cheers Graham.
My working definition of "HV Radiant" is high voltage RF noise. And by high voltage I mean generally in excess of 10 kV, where one might see some tiny corona spraying from a sharp point.
So I've got some way to go before I declare "Eureka!". But it has become clear to me that NR defines things differently than I do. So perhaps he sees the threshold for "HV Radiant" as 1 kV or so, maybe.
I did see a tiny glow in the neon with only one leg connected, so maybe. But again... I have simpler and more efficient circuits that will genuinely produce much higher voltages and will light up neons and CFLs and suchlike with _no_ wires connected and at considerable distance. Whenever I point out these facts to NR he replies with something like "but that is not the primary purpose of this circuit". Well... what IS the primary purpose of this circuit then? Wait.... I think I know.... it's to get us off his back so we will stop constantly asking him to demonstrate a self running circuit, or to tell us what he sold to the FMIBS (Foreign Men In Black Suits). Or maybe it is just a big joke, to see how many components we will burn up before shelving the project like some others have already done.
As for the rest, again, I don't know exactly what he is trying to say.
Here is my metaphor take from it what you will.
We have at least three maybe four guys here that have extensive backgrounds in working with engines. I need not name them.
Lets say there is a different guy named Jim who had never designed or even looked at engines before, has no history or knowledge of prior art but got a bright idea one day and decided to build an better gasoline engine.
So he builds this thing and takes it to the four mechanical experts here and they look it over and begin finding major flaws in the construction of the device. Fuel is blowing by the piston, the timing is way off, the crank is not suited to the displacement chamber, the valves stick and do not seat properly, fuel is leaking from the carburetor, the mix is terribly wrong, the porting is inefficient etc, etc, etc.
The engine has a tiny propeller that it is turning as proof of it's magic horsepower (or unicorn power, as you prefer).
Jim says: see, there it is, unicorn power!
Jim says: You mechanical think inside the box types, say you would like to put the device on a dyno and compare it to known working devices?, but I insist this engine puts out power that can't be measured by those conventional measuring devices.
Then he says nevermind all that, you guys are not thinking outside the box, you are trained in conventional engineering thought. It's easy to see, my device puts out magic horsepower that can't be measured with conventional devices, see the propeller turning.
When you ask for Jim's drawing of his engine to see what materials he specified, he pull out a scrap of cardboard with some very crude markings and does not explain why wood was used for the piston or why the mains power had to be used to generate the spark. The drawing looks like it was made by someone who never worked in a mechanical engineering environment and does not follow any standards for the communication of mechanical ideas.
It is clear to the mechanical experts that Jim is totally unskilled in the art of engine design, has an exalted sense of his own abilities and ideas, and cloaks his ignorance in further obfuscation.
Then as final insult Jim says, I give this to you as a tool to study and learn from and move on to better designs.
Now the question is what standards would you expect from such a person bringing you an engine to test, what rigorous testing would you insist be applied before you take Jim seriously?
So Jim leaves in a huff taking his engine to a group of people that are more like him, that have no real experience in mechanical designs especially engines, and as expected, they are quite impressed with his engine and want to learn more about unicorn power and how they might use it's magic properties.
End of story
Have I hit a "berserk mode" at 2.5 v , 250 mA input? :D
>spew(coffee, keyboard)!
Now I'm laughing hilariously at ION's story! The wooden piston really got me going.
O0
Dear ION.
Point taken and a smile " to boot ".... O0
I well know my limitations in the electronics area with just level 3 Radio/Television repair qualifications from over 40 years ago now.
Time for bed then ?
But before you tuck me in.
Could someone answer my earlier question please.
" Now as I see it C5 is an additional store, BUT can it be classed as in parallel with C1 as there's a Diode D1 between them? Is the NE2 flashing over and putting some charge into C5 ? "
Night night.....
Dear TinselKoala.
That's one of them.
Ah, the wooden piston.
Years ago a friend was traveling in an old Triumph " Standard 8 " he asked the driver why it smelt of smoke in the cab...... the driver replied that he had blown a piston and replaced it with a wooden one !!
That's absolute gospel truth.....
It's been done. I used wood to get me home when a brake pad shed the Ferrodo !!
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.23, 18:48:57
Dear ION.
Point taken and a smile " to boot ".... O0
I well know my limitations in the electronics area with just level 3 Radio/Television repair qualifications from over 40 years ago now.
Time for bed then ?
But before you tuck me in.
Could someone answer my earlier question please.
" Now as I see it C5 is an additional store, BUT can it be classed as in parallel with C1 as there's a Diode D1 between them? Is the NE2 flashing over and putting some charge into C5 ? "
Night night.....
Well, yes and no. It charges in parallel with C1 when the power supply is connected, but it can't discharge in parallel when the supply is disconnected, because of the diode. So it can't act as a main power storage like the C1 but it can act as a storage for the toroid windings and through the toroid to the Base of the transistor. The connection to the main power rail through the diode keeps the C5 "topped off", I think.
I can't say about the neon, though. Which neon and where is NR connecting it?
2.5 V at 210 mA input, pot turned all the way down (max resistance). I have a neon load on the HV FWB and it is flickering nicely.
The "charger" output, with no load, is holding at 19.4 V. I've seen this go up to about 21 volts when the pot is cranked up and the thing changes into a different mode. Next I'll put a load on the charger output.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.23, 19:00:59
Well, yes and no. It charges in parallel with C1 when the power supply is connected, but it can't discharge in parallel when the supply is disconnected, because of the diode. So it can't act as a main power storage like the C1 but it can act as a storage for the toroid windings and through the toroid to the Base of the transistor. The connection to the main power rail through the diode keeps the C5 "topped off", I think.
I can't say about the neon, though. Which neon and where is NR connecting it?
Well, that's the $64,000 question !!
The Neon is on a stalk in the video.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.23, 18:42:38
Have I hit a "berserk mode" at 2.5 v , 250 mA input? :D
Look at that waveform! berserk mode is obviously the key to OU. Think my new motto will be:
I'm going "berserk" :D
Now I'm off to print up those bumper stickers. O0
... continues to oscillate for several minutes after power supply is disconnected ....
.... make that "Continues to oscillate for _many_ minutes" after disconnecting power supply...
Still has a signal on the output transformer secondary as well. Can't light an LED with it though, not much oompf there.
It's definitely running down but very gradually indeed.
I have a switch in series with the Base of the transistor. Turning off this switch flatlines the traces. Then I turned the switch on.... still flatlined. Hmm... cycle switch several times very quickly... oscillations restart (or is the switch faulty?)
a repost from Stefan's forum
Nelson
Quote
unfortunately was my last contribution about this subject .
Seems some "funny" persons like ridicularize my efforts and my work and in that way, certainly they not need any kind of support, i tell that because even in their elitist forum "overunityresearch.com" they simple not show any respect by my person and my efforts and by what i share .
In that way no more information will "travel" from this forum to overunityresearch.com .
This topic was blocked in Overunity.com just because some persons get "pouting" , and prefer go work in their "private" forum where they feel freely to use their habitual behavior and language and talk what they want . So in this way , they can continue with their jokes ,and laugh because laugh is good for health , but the will not have nothing more by me .
Myself do not understand, the reason to they continue to waste time on something they do not believe or even understand by the way .
I already share the essential for anyone who is interested in build that circuit otherwise people not satisfied with my decision just , leave it .
I'm really a fool thinking some persons could change :( its my fault .
Nelson Rocha
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.23, 21:01:44
.... make that "Continues to oscillate for _many_ minutes" after disconnecting power supply...
Yeah I also saw that. Thought I was measuring it wrong. I sent the vid to grum. I've had over a minute so far. The neon was not lit when I was seeing it and it only occurred when I switched the polarity on one of the coils. And you can still manipulate the oscillation with the pot when the power is off.
btw ION I would never try to build an engine :) .. maybe a motor or two but never an engine.
Quote from: JimBoot on 2017.04.23, 22:26:13
btw ION I would never try to build an engine :) .. maybe a motor or two but never an engine.
Neither would I, I tried to rebuild a VW engine once and came to the conclusion I lacked the experience to pull it off successfully. I took it to an expert, we became friends and he took me as an apprentice and showed me every step of the process. I doubt that I will ever need rebuild a VW engine again, but it was a valuable experience. He never held back any "secret information" or dribbled out the process like a trail of crumbs. He was open and generous and skillfully guided my every step in the process with full explanations.
I was not trying to impune anyones electronics abilities with the little story, just trying to make the point that experts in one field do have transferable skills and should hold any claimant to the same rigorous standards of scrutiny as they would for someone bringing a device to their own field of expertise.
Rigorous proof of claims, rigorous test protocol, full disclosure, and above all clear explanations of the claims of the device. No pixie dust or unicorn power.
Regarding the quote from reply #59
That someone decides to take their ball and go home pouting like a child, there is an old saying:
"A person of superior nature is not easily offended"So, no big loss from people that
try to hide what they don't have to begin with.
Regards
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.23, 18:42:38
Have I hit a "berserk mode" at 2.5 v , 250 mA input? :D
Ah ha
That is exactly what i have going on.
Brad
Quote from: TinMan on 2017.04.24, 07:32:52
Ah ha
That is exactly what i have going on.
Brad
Cool huh?
Did the best reality check I could do to make sure the oscillations I'm seeing after power disconnect weren't just scope based. I put a dmm on the circuit and voltage was dropping at about 1mv / sec. I had it at 1.67 on the power supply and when I disconnected it was 1.65. On another test I got the neon flashing for about 10 secs at 2hz. Interesting to play with.
When did you discover that you can wire a relay to "buzz" by connecting the coil power connection through the normally closed switch contacts, and get high voltage spikes from the coil when the thing buzzes and rapidly turns itself on and off? Bonus points for adding a capacitor to store some of the spike energy. I think I was about ten years old, which puts it in the far distant past, last century sometime. Of course I didn't have a fancy power supply or oscilloscope then, I just used it to shock my friends and family and annoy the dogs. :o
"Why would you want one of these, and what good use would you make of it?" -- They are just questions, Leon, they are written down for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiCD2LJjA-A
Sorry, I guess I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. If you have nothing, you have nothing to lose.
Quote from: JimBoot on 2017.04.24, 08:11:47
Cool huh?
Did the best reality check I could do to make sure the oscillations I'm seeing after power disconnect weren't just scope based. I put a dmm on the circuit and voltage was dropping at about 1mv / sec. I had it at 1.67 on the power supply and when I disconnected it was 1.65. On another test I got the neon flashing for about 10 secs at 2hz. Interesting to play with.
Yep. I went around the house turning off all UPS, CFLs, monitors and etc. to make sure it wasn't picking up noise power from the environment somewhere. I finally killed it by using a jumper to short the power rails, but it didn't die instantly, it tapered off to flatline over a couple of seconds. SO that is pretty conclusive that it was running on stored power in the capacitors. Confirmed by applying a tiny voltage to get some charge, and it went straight into these low voltage oscillations again. My setup must have pretty high Q for it to go on like that for so long. Having the switch in the Base circuit also helps by providing the "kick" that can start these low voltage oscillations if they aren't happening at first.
The severe base drive using large coupling capacitors (with no limiting series resistors as found in a typical BO or JT) allows the circuit to oscillate at very low voltage.
But at higher voltage the base is over driven with high forward current and high reverse current which can lead to failure of the TIP122 as I pointed out in an earlier post.
Good engineering involves selecting the appropriate base drive current limit scheme for the window of preferred operating voltages.
Operating with less than a couple of volts, no problem the TIP122 will not fail. Raise the voltage too high and either the base will be fried or the SOA will be exceeded.
I guess when there are no voltage operating specs for a circuit, you do so at your own risk of blowing transistors.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.24, 12:13:40
When did you discover that you can wire a relay to "buzz" by connecting the coil power connection through the normally closed switch contacts, and get high voltage spikes from the coil when the thing buzzes and rapidly turns itself on and off? Bonus points for adding a capacitor to store some of the spike energy. I think I was about ten years old, which puts it in the far distant past, last century sometime. Of course I didn't have a fancy power supply or oscilloscope then, I just used it to shock my friends and family and annoy the dogs. :o
"Why would you want one of these, and what good use would you make of it?" -- They are just questions, Leon, they are written down for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiCD2LJjA-A
Sorry, I guess I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. If you have nothing, you have nothing to lose.
Lol-you watched that too.
I made one of these about 10 years ago.
I think it was called the mechanical oscillator- battery desulfator,by JL Nordin if i remember.
I use those for interference testing (susceptibility) of circuits to fast rise random EMI pulses. They will cause a microcomputer to glitch out and restart often. I tested a lot of our commercial products with such a device, put the appropriate EMI hardening into the product and then sent them off to the EMI test lab for approval.
We could not afford to buy the precision impulse generating equipment at that time
Just a short antenna on the coil breaking contact does the job.
Did you miss something?
Or am I being deluded?
Next question.
Perhaps Nelson's intention was to get an overshoot.
How would a Neon connected to the " spikey " side and the positive of C5 go?
Topping off ?
TinselKoala, you didn't actually state how long it took for your device to die, well not so much die but you killed it. Days, hours. ??
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.24, 15:58:37
Did you miss something?
Or am I being deluded?
You aren't missing anything and neither did I. Who is being deluded? Maybe the person making the video, because you cannot rely upon the _power supply's_ meter readings to tell you the truth-- especially if the manufacturer is Rigol, and even more especially if you have charged up a capacitor with the power supply and are then running on the cap rather than the PSU's output. I can show you similar "zero current" readings using my old Topward 6306D and the "NRMRE" or as I prefer to call it the NR Mystery Joule Thief. Charge the input caps to a certain voltage then back off the PSU to a lower voltage-- bingo, the PSU then provides no current because the NRMJT is running on the energy in the cap, until it drops to or below the PSU voltage setting. And that's not even fooling the PSU by drawing rapid pulses from it!
Ask yourself why, if the power supply really isn't providing any power, does it need to be connected at all. Does Rigol secretly provide Dark Shenzhen Energy which can be seen on an oscilloscope but not on its own meters?
(ETA: by the way I cropped and shrank your image to make it more forum-friendly....)
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.24, 16:04:43
Next question.
Perhaps Nelson's intention was to get an overshoot.
I'm not sure what you mean by "overshoot" and I'm certainly not qualified to guess NR's intentions, but it's good bait anyway.
Quote
How would a Neon connected to the " spikey " side and the positive of C5 go?
Topping off ?
You mean like in the attached schematic? I'll try it once I warm up the equipment and have another cuppa Joe. (instant decaf of course, don't want to wake the Drop Bear inside me)
Quote
TinselKoala, you didn't actually state how long it took for your device to die, well not so much die but you killed it. Days, hours. ??
Hello GI love you long time low rate, island rate, kama'aina rate... :-*
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.24, 19:36:46
I'm not sure what you mean by "overshoot" and I'm certainly not qualified to guess NR's intentions, but it's good bait anyway.
You mean like in the attached schematic? I'll try it once I warm up the equipment and have another cuppa Joe. (instant decaf of course, don't want to wake the Drop Bear inside me)
Hello GI love you long time low rate, island rate, kama'aina rate... :-*
Ok.
You got me.
I'll leave with a gesture made famous by Winston Churchill...
Ta ta.
Did I offend you in some way? If so, please accept my apology, no offense was intended.
It is just very hard for me to take this project seriously, that's all. Maybe I should just quit, since it's clear that nobody knows what we are supposed to be "proving" by exploring this circuit.
The "precise" answer to your question about "how long" is... I don't know. Hours maybe. Not days.
As to the use of the 10F supercap.... well, if NR can use one, why can't I?
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.24, 16:04:43
(snip)
How would a Neon connected to the " spikey " side and the positive of C5 go?
Topping off ?
(snip)
No effect that I can see. Neon does not light.
Minutes after disconnecting power supply.... a chain of Elephants !
Dear All
I added the inductor in my redraw of the circuit per the observation of the axial inductor by user Zephir. It is his belief that this added inducter assists the main toroid by helping it to become a paramatric oscillator i.e. the inductance of the main toroid is controlled by the small axial inductor.
It is my belief that there may be too little effect to form a parametric oscillator, but we shall see.
I might add that user partzman and Mr. Fred Epps have performed an exhaustive study and made very exacting measurements of parametric inductor control in an oscillator circuit and have not found there to be any hint of excess power by such a configuration.
Perhaps Mr. NR has some other method that is different and yields results.
I wish to note that in his schematic TK has the inductor in a different position i.e. between the collector and the CW winding of the toroid.
The extra axial inductor (if it is assumed to be the wire that looks like it is passing through the core on the original NR drawing) goes from the collector out to the driven devices, i.e. the step up transformer and charger bridge rectifier. This is an important difference. The collector as seen in the original NR drawing connects directly to the CW winding of the toroid.
You can try the inductor in either location, but I doubt that it will have much effect. To have a larger effect it would have to be be positioned such that it is better coupled to the toroid core as in an image posted by Zephir with a half core glued to the toroid.
I might add that it is not unusual to get ozone from the output of the step up transformer, as the peak voltage can get quite high on the secondary of the so called "radiant" output.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In drawing schematics, it would be really good if everyone would try to conform to the industry standard conventions of :
1) inputs are on the left of the drawing, including power connections
2) outputs are on the right of the drawing
3) positive power rail across the top of the drawing
4) negative power rail (or circuit common ground) across the bottom of the drawing*
5) everything else is hung between these connection points or rails.
* if there is a negative bias supply it is to be drawn beneath the circuit common.
This makes it much easier to analyze signal and power flows when studying the circuit.
I have attempted to demonstrate this art in my redraw of NR's original sketch.
It will also make your drawings look more professional as well as easier to communicate to others. With time and practice, you will be able to read any such drawing easily, without having to untangle it in your mind.
As far as possible your breadboard will then be made to conform as far as possible to the layout of the schematic drawing, making for very easy testing and troubleshooting.
Just a suggestion.
Kind Regards
Vortex1
Sure. And for our next project maybe we should try building this:
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/circuit_diagram.png)
(Thanks, xkcd!)
I think the idea of this circuit is create a fast switching mag field for very little cost. I think this is what Matt was hinting at. So I'm trialling pick up coils next.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.25, 20:33:43
Sure. And for our next project maybe we should try building this:
I happen to know that circuit will not work as drawn because the inventor left out an important component so that replicators would always fail. ssshhh don't tell anyone it's the hocus pocus focus trimpot (Digikey) and I won't tell where it goes in the circuit except by PM and feed my paypal kitty. ;)
Quote from: ION on 2017.04.25, 14:02:42
Dear All
I might add that it is not unusual to get ozone from the output of the step up transformer, as the peak voltage can get quite high on the secondary of the so called "radiant" output.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In drawing schematics, it would be really good if everyone would try to conform to the industry standard conventions of :
1) inputs are on the left of the drawing, including power connections
2) outputs are on the right of the drawing
3) positive power rail across the top of the drawing
4) negative power rail (or circuit common ground) across the bottom of the drawing*
5) everything else is hung between these connection points or rails.
* if there is a negative bias supply it is to be drawn beneath the circuit common.
This makes it much easier to analyze signal and power flows when studying the circuit.
I have attempted to demonstrate this art in my redraw of NR's original sketch.
It will also make your drawings look more professional as well as easier to communicate to others. With time and practice, you will be able to read any such drawing easily, without having to untangle it in your mind.
As far as possible your breadboard will then be made to conform as far as possible to the layout of the schematic drawing, making for very easy testing and troubleshooting.
Just a suggestion.
Kind Regards
Vortex1
Thanks for the circuit drawing tips. Helps us noobs.
Quote from: ION on 2017.04.25, 14:02:42
Dear All
I added the inductor in my redraw of the circuit per the observation of the axial inductor by user Zephir. It is his belief that this added inducter assists the main toroid by helping it to become a paramatric oscillator i.e. the inductance of the main toroid is controlled by the small axial inductor.
It is my belief that there may be too little effect to form a parametric oscillator, but we shall see.
I might add that user partzman and Mr. Fred Epps have performed an exhaustive study and made very exacting measurements of parametric inductor control in an oscillator circuit and have not found there to be any hint of excess power by such a configuration.
Perhaps Mr. NR has some other method that is different and yields results.
I wish to note that in his schematic TK has the inductor in a different position i.e. between the collector and the CW winding of the toroid.
The extra axial inductor (if it is assumed to be the wire that looks like it is passing through the core on the original NR drawing) goes from the collector out to the driven devices, i.e. the step up transformer and charger bridge rectifier. This is an important difference. The collector as seen in the original NR drawing connects directly to the CW winding of the toroid.
You can try the inductor in either location, but I doubt that it will have much effect. To have a larger effect it would have to be be positioned such that it is better coupled to the toroid core as in an image posted by Zephir with a half core glued to the toroid.
I might add that it is not unusual to get ozone from the output of the step up transformer, as the peak voltage can get quite high on the secondary of the so called "radiant" output.
(snip)
Kind Regards
Vortex1
Wait... now I'm really confused. ???
In the most recent schematic that I have from you, the inductor is positioned as follows: One end of inductor is connected to the Collector of the transistor and to the "cw" winding of the toroid. And the other end of the inductor is connected to one of the AC inputs to the "charger" FWB, to the 4700 pF capacitor and to the bottom of the 24V winding of the output transformer. Right?
And in the schematic I'm using on my board, one end of the inductor is connected to the Collector of the transistor and to the "cw" winding of the toroid. And the other end of the inductor is connected to one of the AC inputs to the "charger" FWB, to the 4700 pF capacitor and to the bottom of the 24V winding of the output transformer. Right?
What am I missing here? Is there a more recent version that I haven't seen yet?
Oh, perhaps I see. When you first posted your revision, I changed my setup to conform to your revision, and I guess you have not yet seen my revised schematic that conforms to yours. Didn't I post it already though?
EDIT: Yes, I did. http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3448.msg60977#msg60977
... And here I've altered Itsu's redraw (with my component values and the extra inductor) to conform more closely to ION's suggestions as to the standard way to draw schematics: ;)
So... now that we've gotten that cleared up :D are we now being "hinted" at that this circuit and the relay buzzer circuit are supposed to be ways of generating "nanopulses" of high voltage? And is there some significant use for these pulses in making a "free energy" or self running OU device?
Besides, I mean, how they are normally used in industry to instantiate Faraday's Law of Induction, by making a fast changing magnetic field in some primary coil that will in turn induce even higher voltages in some secondary coil somewhere... sort of like the way switchmode power supplies work in part? Or how solid state Tesla coils work?
Well, when I think of "nanopulses" I expect to see rise-fall times in the single digit nanosecond range, and to make them useful for engineering I expect to see them at stable frequency, duty cycle and peak voltage values. But that's just me, I guess.
I reoriented the inner inductor so it is diametrically horizontal instead of co-axial, connected up the "charger" components, added an LED + 2.2k resistor as load on the charger, and the usual neon on the output of the HV FWB. Also installed a socket (blue 3-terminal screw thing) for the transistor to make it easy to change. Turned the "torrrid" yoke around so that the thinner wire is on the Base drive side for a little more resistance. (Yes, I've tried several actual toroids but they don't work as well as the yoke. Of course I don't have a magic green toroid to try...)
Running at 2.0v, 610mA input, collector spikes at 186v p-p (not the maximum obtainable, just a friendly setting for now).
Happiness is a warm ...er.... transistor.... :D
Several minutes after disconnecting power, neon and LED are out, pot cranked to high resistance end.... another "berserk" set of waveforms? C.C
Thanks TK. I tried the parametric oscillator thing with some rolled up silicone steel as the core. Did not have and significant joy so abandoned. So yeah use the nano pulses at zero amps for some cheap mag switching. In the last vid he was using Pancake coils to pick up.
I don't know how you measure input power with no current. I'm guessing though we'll get bemf from the pickups as we add a load, no idea what the result will be.
Quote from: JimBoot on 2017.04.26, 07:25:09
Thanks TK. I tried the parametric oscillator thing with some rolled up silicone steel as the core. Did not have and significant joy so abandoned. So yeah use the nano pulses at zero amps for some cheap mag switching. In the last vid he was using Pancake coils to pick up.
I don't know how you measure input power with no current. I'm guessing though we'll get bemf from the pickups as we add a load, no idea what the result will be.
You're welcome!
If there is no input current there is no input power, so you can just disconnect the power supply and watch it keep on running forever.
Wait... it won't keep on running with the power supply disconnected? Well, then, I must conclude that the "no current" idea is incorrect.
Steel is not the best core to use for altering inductance of a coil. Try ferrite, or powdered iron mixed with epoxy and stuffed into a drinking straw, with a copper end cap. This makes a "tuning wand" (google that).
(https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/imagenes/wandshorus_12a.jpg)
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.25, 20:33:43
Sure. And for our next project maybe we should try building this:
Yeah sure....
Just add " insult to injury "
The friends I've made know how to find me.
I leave you with a liberal quantity of Erfinder's insect repellent.....
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.26, 10:25:43
Yeah sure....
Just add " insult to injury "
The friends I've made know how to find me.
I leave you with a liberal quantity of Erfinder's insect repellent.....
I am really sorry if I've offended you in some way. But have you no sense of humour, of irony? Or perhaps it is I who am irony-deficient.
Or perhaps this is yet another club to which I'll never be able to belong.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.26, 11:16:00
I am really sorry if I've offended you in some way. But have you no sense of humour, of irony? Or perhaps it is I who am irony-deficient.
Well i seen the funny side of it Lol.
QuoteOr perhaps this is yet another club to which I'll never be able to belong.
I think you belong right where you are.
You are an asset to this forum. O0
The !irony! is T.K,you have actually done more work on this circuit,than those trying to promote it :o
This speaks volume's of your dedication toward it.
This alone,should have shown the others,that your !skillful! circuit above,was posted as a joke.
Brad
TK
You are a valuable asset to the forum and I appreciate your humor.
Maybe I'm the one that doesn't belong as it seems I've caused quite a rucus by asking for a claimant to clarify his claims and by doing a critical analysis of his device.
My better sense told me I should have stayed out of this discussion, trusted my own instincts, but keep my opinions to myself.
I apologize to all for any confusion I've caused.
p.s. if you've got 186 volts peak on the collector, be careful the device is rated for 100 VMax.......there I go again with that nerd talk. sorry.
Thanks men. I understand now that there has been considerable "back story" and behind scenes work on this circuit or some unspecified variant of it, and I am just a newcomer without the knowledge that some others are privy to. Hence my attitude that the whole thing is somewhat of a joke. Maybe if I knew what some others know about where this all leads, I wouldn't have this attitude... or maybe it would just make it stronger. It's not much fun being a mushroom--- being kept in the dark and being fed horsehockey, while trying to grow into something interesting and palatable.
Yes, I know the Data Sheet limits on the Vce, but I'm relying on the shortness of the pulse to keep things intact, and I only operate at those high voltages for short periods. The transistor does heat up. I've only blown one and perhaps degraded another one, so I have two "virgin" ones left, plus the operational one in the circuit now. What is interesting and scary is what the Base is forced to eat. I'm also going to test a mosfet in place of the Darlington at higher input voltages later on tonight probably. I wonder if I can hook up a 4420 gate driver with a mosfet and still get the oscillations. That will really pump up the "HV radiant" if it works.... and if my tiny output transformer can take the strain.
well
the "situation" at Stefan's has been addressed .
should be a more respectful venue there [hopefully for all projects].
respectfully
Chet K
For a really good time, call on TIP-35C. ^-^
(2 v @ 120 mA in, pot turned about 1/3 up from high-resistance end, LED+resistor load on "charger", neon load on HVFWB, LED and neon strobing brightly, transistor cold)
More from TIP-35C:
This is with 2.0 v @ 500 mA input. LED+2.2k on Charger output, reading 9.1 volts. Neon on HVFWB output. Both LED and neon glowing brilliantly and strongly. Pot just over halfway up. Transistor staying barely above room temperature, no heatsink installed.
This configuration appears to make higher voltage on the output transformer without the overlimit Vce spikes.
TIP-35C, no neon on output transformer, LED+2.2k on Charger output, 22.0 volts output. 2.0 v @740 mA input, transistor heating up somewhat, put heatsink on it.
Alas, still no sign of "HV Radiant", meaning I can't draw even the smallest arc to a screwdriver or light up a neon with one or no leads connected.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.26, 07:36:02
You're welcome!
If there is no input current there is no input power, so you can just disconnect the power supply and watch it keep on running forever.
Wait... it won't keep on running with the power supply disconnected? Well, then, I must conclude that the "no current" idea is incorrect.
Steel is not the best core to use for altering inductance of a coil. Try ferrite, or powdered iron mixed with epoxy and stuffed into a drinking straw, with a copper end cap. This makes a "tuning wand" (google that).
Interesting.
"Interesting" is what people say about Modern Art when they are too embarrassed to say what they really think. ???
Here's something really "interesting": With no loads at 2.0 volts input and pot all the way down (high resistance) the current draw is about 440 mA. With the neon connected the current draw _drops_ to around 200 mA, and with the further load of the LED+resistor on the Charger output, the current draw drops down to about 180 mA. Do you think if I put even heavier loads on it, the current will eventually drop to zero? I can haz cheezburger now? >:-) (The "Overunity Asymptote")
TIP-35C, no loads. This is about the closest I've gotten to "HV Radiant". 1.74 kV p-p before the output FWB.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.26, 22:56:29
"Interesting" is what people say about Modern Art when they are too embarrassed to say what they really think. ???
Here's something really "interesting": With no loads at 2.0 volts input and pot all the way down (high resistance) the current draw is about 440 mA. With the neon connected the current draw _drops_ to around 200 mA, and with the further load of the LED+resistor on the Charger output, the current draw drops down to about 180 mA. Do you think if I put even heavier loads on it, the current will eventually drop to zero? I can haz cheezburger now? >:-) (The "Overunity Asymptote")
TIP-35C, no loads. This is about the closest I've gotten to "HV Radiant". 1.74 kV p-p before the output FWB.
What happens if you short it? :)
I dunno, I'll have to try it the next time I fire it all up. Maybe something will blow up! That would be exciting, I haven't exploded a transistor in quite some time. Wear safety glasses! 8)
Dear TinselKoala.
Thank you for pursuing with this circuit. I have a couple of questions.
What is the reason/cause for this " berserk mode " or " package mode " where the output changes from a continuous oscillation into the mark/space oscillation?
Why did my circuit run with the base connection removed and display a sinus wave rather than a spiked one?
I'll close with a quote from Nelson.
" but near the input of the circuit near the capacitor C5 maybe people should consider search by negative resistance theme and will find better explanation to i use the neon bulb."
What do you think he's referring to?
Kind regards, Graham.
Quote from: Grumage on 2017.04.27, 10:52:07
Dear TinselKoala.
Thank you for pursuing with this circuit. I have a couple of questions.
What is the reason/cause for this " berserk mode " or " package mode " where the output changes from a continuous oscillation into the mark/space oscillation?
There are several capacitors that store and release power at various timing rates, and I suppose that at very particular settings of input power and Base resistance (pot setting), as well as changing transistor characteristics due to heating and maybe even partial degradation, these cap discharge/charge cycles interact to produce the "package" oscillation groups. I have seen this kind of thing in Joule Thiefs before. This present circuit is very sensitive to input power and pot settings as you know, and there seem to be dozens of different waveforms it will make as conditions are varied. I have learned how to make most of them consistently by now. So it is "unstable" but consistently unstable, in that one may repeat any particular waveform with the right input power and pot setting. If you have current-limiting on your power supply, the point where this sets in also has an effect on the overall performance of the circuit.
Quote
Why did my circuit run with the base connection removed and display a sinus wave rather than a spiked one?
I don't know, I haven't been able to reproduce this phenomenon. But as I've already demonstrated this circuit is sensitive to EM radiation in the nearby environment and it is possible that it was picking up some signal from something in your lab. It might also be possible that the Darlington transistor's second Base which is internally connected to the Emitter through an internal resistor might have been causing some oscillation even though the first transistor's Base was disconnected by you. In my build I've put a switch in series with the Base and I frequently turn this switch off and on to see if I can get the same thing happening, but so far not. I do recall that one of my Joule Thiefs showed this behaviour at one time too but I never tracked it down and now I don't even remember which JT it was (I have dozens of different ones scattered around the place buried under years of other projects.)
Quote
I'll close with a quote from Nelson.
" but near the input of the circuit near the capacitor C5 maybe people should consider search by negative resistance theme and will find better explanation to i use the neon bulb."
What do you think he's referring to?
Kind regards, Graham.
I have no idea, but I've grown tired of trying to interpret NR's proclamations and I wish he would just come out and say what he means in words that I might be able to understand. He's a big tease, or perhaps a "fisherman" casting bait, and I have little patience for that kind of thing.
I've probed all around the circuit and even hard-connected a neon as you suggested earlier and found nothing, neon didn't light up anywhere except on the output of the HV transformer. I even had a neon installed from Collector to Emitter, in the style of He Who Cannot Be Mentioned Here, to protect the transistor from excessive Vce spikes but I never saw it flash, even though the scope shows spikes that exceed the neon's strike voltage, so I've now removed it.
Now I have a question for you: Is this "package" mode, or burst oscillation mode, in fact the "Berserk" behaviour that several people have referred to with this circuit? How do we know?
Once again, I apologize if I've rubbed you the wrong way, but I must reserve the right to be sardonic at times. I wouldn't be me otherwise.
Cheers mate--
--TK
Excellent work TK
Maybe this will also help:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=602.msg9543#msg9543
If not just disregard.
P.S. kinda why I don't get to excited about these things.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.27, 11:16:04
Now I have a question for you: Is this "package" mode, or burst oscillation mode, in fact the "Berserk" behaviour that several people have referred to with this circuit? How do we know?
Cheers mate--
--TK
Dear TinselKoala.
Yes. I think it is and your explanation makes sense. Thank you.
QuoteOnce again, I apologize if I've rubbed you the wrong way, but I must reserve the right to be sardonic at times. I wouldn't be me otherwise.
Those that know me well also know that I'm a carer, my dear wife's condition is a slow but downward spiral. We're not looking for sympathy but please understand that my time is getting more and more limited as each day passes by. This is why I was so grateful when Chet managed to press for your services, a simple explanation into the curious circuit behaviour we had seen last year.
Typically " Sods law " crept into the equation.... Chet's.... " The perfect storm " and the proverbial hit the fan !!
I have a very selfish attitude, my 15 years spent in this area of research is for one reason only, to keep our home warm, cheaply. The 2 KW PV installation has helped a little, we have generated 1.3 MW over 12 months, but I need something that goes 24/7.
Ok, that's enough " Heart surgery " we all have our off days, don't we?
Cheers Graham.
Apparently it is not you TK but I that have seemed to cause great offense on this forum as my posts go largely unnoticed or uncommented, even when very revealing to the subject at hand.
I spent a lot of time on these blocking oscillator circuits and posted the "quirks" over 6 years ago on my bench.
I referred to that a couple of posts ago, reply #105 and this was the link referred to:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=602.msg9543#msg9543.
Not a peep.
Scattered through the pages, I also tried to give a skillful analysis of the circuit problems. This was never acknowledged but often regurgitated in various forms.
Oh well someone has to be the blame for all the rucus besides Zephir.
Guess I've gone invisible mode. Good to be in black sheep mode again. As appropriate, I will exit this thread stage left.
It's not tragic, just disheartening.
Regards
apologies for horrid writing below [I can't really see to well ATM
well
It would seem the direction has changed focus to Pancake coils or Bifilar coils.
and one specific area to investigate is Partzman's MEI work .
will be nice to get some others up to Speed on that as well as Tinmans recent investigation.
Tinsel has tentatively agreed to do a replication on his bench of Partzman's MEI work ,
for discussion here in appropriate thread [all necessary bits will be shipped soon]
and the work will be shared at other open source Venues too.
Quote from: ION on 2017.04.27, 17:10:58
Apparently it is not you TK but I that have seemed to cause great offense on this forum as my posts go largely unnoticed or uncommented, even when very revealing to the subject at hand.
I spent a lot of time on these blocking oscillator circuits and posted the "quirks" over 6 years ago on my bench.
I referred to that a couple of posts ago, reply #105 and this was the link referred to:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=602.msg9543#msg9543.
Not a peep.
Scattered through the pages, I also tried to give a skillful analysis of the circuit problems. This was never acknowledged but often regurgitated in various forms.
Oh well someone has to be the blame for all the rucus besides Zephir.
Guess I've gone invisible mode. Good to be in black sheep mode again. As appropriate, I will exit this thread stage left.
It's not tragic, just disheartening.
Regards
Dear ION.
I have been trying to work on a reply to your last post, please don't blame yourself, far from it !! My wife has had a few bad days, really bad today. But no, to be honest you make such valid points it's like stating the obvious, if you understand what I'm saying ? And I'm not being derisive here.
I'm the " rookie " here and I'm truly grateful for the likes of you and others but I found myself being hurt a little. Just a bad day !! And sometimes there's also this problem with language " across the pond " too.
Kind regards, Graham.
Quote from: Chet K on 2017.04.27, 18:00:52
apologies for horrid writing below [I can't really see to well ATM
well
It would seem the direction has changed focus to Pancake coils or Bifilar coils.
and one specific area to investigate is Partzman's MEI work .
will be nice to get some others up to Speed on that as well as Tinmans recent investigation.
Tinsel has tentatively agreed to do a replication on his bench of Partzman's MEI work ,
for discussion here in appropriate thread [all necessary bits will be shipped soon]
and the work will be shared at other open source Venues too.
Thanks for the " heads up " Chet.
Who knows might just bring the two together !! ;)
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: ION on 2017.04.27, 17:10:58
Apparently it is not you TK but I that have seemed to cause great offense on this forum as my posts go largely unnoticed or uncommented, even when very revealing to the subject at hand.
I spent a lot of time on these blocking oscillator circuits and posted the "quirks" over 6 years ago on my bench.
I referred to that a couple of posts ago, reply #105 and this was the link referred to:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=602.msg9543#msg9543.
Not a peep.
Scattered through the pages, I also tried to give a skillful analysis of the circuit problems. This was never acknowledged but often regurgitated in various forms.
Oh well someone has to be the blame for all the rucus besides Zephir.
Guess I've gone invisible mode. Good to be in black sheep mode again. As appropriate, I will exit this thread stage left.
It's not tragic, just disheartening.
Regards
Please don't feel that way Ion, I think I speak for everyone here when I say we truly appreciate your posts. You generally say what needs to be said especially when it comes to electronics, usually after your posts nothing else needs to be said so we are quite. You have an amazing amount of electronic knowledge and I for one Thank you for sharing it with us.
I love youse all
we use to have Group Hugs at Stefan's...there were some "incidents" :o
Ditto Jimmy's comment [I did not know he was from The Bronx
Quote from: ION on 2017.04.27, 17:10:58
Apparently it is not you TK but I that have seemed to cause great offense on this forum as my posts go largely unnoticed or uncommented, even when very revealing to the subject at hand.
I spent a lot of time on these blocking oscillator circuits and posted the "quirks" over 6 years ago on my bench.
I referred to that a couple of posts ago, reply #105 and this was the link referred to:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=602.msg9543#msg9543.
Not a peep.
Scattered through the pages, I also tried to give a skillful analysis of the circuit problems. This was never acknowledged but often regurgitated in various forms.
Oh well someone has to be the blame for all the rucus besides Zephir.
Guess I've gone invisible mode. Good to be in black sheep mode again. As appropriate, I will exit this thread stage left.
It's not tragic, just disheartening.
Regards
Dear ION
I think you know that you have been my main mentor here on this(and the other) forum.
I comment on your posts,when i know or understand what you are talking about.
You must remember-im a mere mechanic ,not an EE--so most of what you say,is well above my pay grade.
But i am learning,and it's guys like you that are doing the teaching.
Now is a time we need you,on the bifilar thread.
I think im doing it right-but the OU results say otherwise--well,at least until proven to be.
Check it out-all associated scope shots with position diagrams,and let us know whats going on here?
Brad
There is no such thing as a "mere" mechanic! Those of us who love engines and machines and love wrenching on them beg to differ. We are the people that keep the world's cars running, keep the world's airplanes flying and even their bikes biking. If your car starts... thank a mechanic--- a Great mechanic!
;) O0
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.28, 13:24:50
There is no such thing as a "mere" mechanic! Those of us who love engines and machines and love wrenching on them beg to differ. We are the people that keep the world's cars running, keep the world's airplanes flying and even their bikes biking. If your car starts... thank a mechanic--- a Great mechanic!
;) O0
Lol,yea ,i know.
They say if there is no truck's,the world stop's.
No mechanic's-no trucks.
Back to the horse and cart ;D
Brad
Thanks for all the kind comments. Sometimes I guess paranoia can creep in.
Right now I'm twisting bolts on a B&S 11 HP with a blown head gasket. I get my hands greasy a lot trying to keep all the engines running around here, 7 or more not counting the chainsaws, autos and backup generators.
Once upon a time when solid state ignition modules would burn out on my chainsaws and small engines, I would try designing my own. I even built a rig with a DC motor driven flywheel and magnets to test designs, first in the lab, then on the engines.
But first I researched every small engine solid state points replacement patent that I could find before trying to reinvent the wheel..... due diligence you know. This is an interesting adventure in transistor design, since the only power source you have is the spinning magnets.
Maybe not to derail this thread (which I have already done) I will post some of that on my bench. (if anyone is interested)
It doesn't really relate to OU except for making HV sparks with spinning magnets appropriately timed, but is an interesting challenge to build a module that works properly and has automatic spark advance.
Point is. I do get my hands greasy very often but when it comes to IC engines, there are quite few on this forum that are my mentors, and Graham is at the top.
Thanks again
Kind Regards
Dear ION.
I wouldn't worry too much about " derailment " at this moment in time. Let's just see what comes from the BiFi department! ;)
Nelson, most certainly is using them..... O0
http://overunity.com/17220/n-r-m-r-e-an-investigation/msg504275/#msg504275
I thank you for your compliments but my area of engine expertise is more ancient I would rate Brad a serious contender too.
Magnetos, lovely things, I have some very early Bosch 19 ought period horseshoe magnet ones, they still work, never been touched....
You are referring to CDI ( capacitive discharge ignition ) if I'm correct ? Now here's one for you. Was Tesla the " true " inventor. Igniter for gas engines patent ?
I still prefer " Hot tube ignition " myself....
Cheers Graham.
Dear Graham
Yes, Brad has extensive engine skills and I think Chet was an aviation mechanic at one point, and is always rebuilding some engine. I'm sure there are others that I have not named so please chime in if you are out there.
QuoteYou are referring to CDI ( capacitive discharge ignition ) if I'm correct ? Now here's one for you. Was Tesla the " true " inventor. Igniter for gas engines patent ?
Some are CDI where the capacitor is charged to a high voltage from a separate winding on the magneto, then the capacitor is discharged at the appropriate time into a low turns count winding to generate the spark.
Another type uses a transistor that is held on (like the points dwell time) which allows current to build in the core winding until the appropriate moment when the transistor is allowed to open, then the spark is produced. The tricky thing is that it is all done with just the magneto powering the circuit, holding the transistor on and turning it off.....no external power source for timing control.
I don't know anything about Tesla's Igniter patent, but HV sparks was right up his alley.
Regarding Nelson's bifilar pancake coils, he doesn't use them in the mini exciter, so if the mini exciter is a teaching principle / learning tool towards some better end result, it has left out the main ingredient.
Regards
;)
Not only Chet but I too am a licensed aircraft mechanic ( now called in the USA "Aviation Maintenance Technician" which sounds like you should be able to keep your hands clean... but still can't.)
I worked for years for a company called Schneck Aviation, where we did complete overhauls of all the common horizontally-opposed piston engines found in light aircraft (and even the Goodyear Blimp which uses 2 counterrotating Continental engines). And I do mean complete. Total stripdowns even removing all paint, replacing all seals and gaskets, align-boring cases, turning cranks, chroming and re-honing cylinders, etc. And run-in on the Test Cell before releasing to customer. Which was my job: accept engine from buildup mechanics on the nose stand, take the engine and mount it to test cell with all temps and pressures and everything monitored, run in according to a time/RPM schedule, and most importantly, FIX any and every discrepancy noted on the test stand. Everything from leaking seals to bad magneto timing to mechanic installed wrong camshaft....
And later I worked Quality Assurance at Gary Aerospace where we did the same thing to big Radial engines, including up to PW4360 Wasp-Major.
(http://www.spannerhead.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/R-4360_1.jpg)
We built firewall-forward quick engine change packages for the Israeli Air Force, EMP-hardened, for their forward air control aircraft, among other things. Then they put _me_ in charge of the Test Cells there too.
https://vimeo.com/16117810
The guy with the flashlight looking for leaks... that could have been me, I even sort of look like that.
Then I worked for Mooney Aircraft at their Delivery Center here in SAT for a couple of years till they folded. That was nice, working on brand new airplanes sometimes not even painted yet, and supporting the owner pilots during their 25 hour conversion training and burn-in period at FlightSafety.
And in my spare time I overhauled VW engines for fun and profit. And just for grins, my girlfriend's 1956 titty-pink Cadillac, which dropped a valve at speed and totally destroyed most of the engine, ruined a head and bent three connecting rods. That was fun, pulling that big v-8 engine with an A-frame in her driveway, and later seeing her in overalls, all greasy, helping me to slip the pistons into the cylinders once we got the case back from the machine shop where they sleeved 3 cylinders and resurfaced the heads etc. Locating all the needed replacement parts was a trip in itself.
That's why I just laugh when someone accuses me of having dirty fingernails in a video. Wimps, they can't even use the right kitchen knife to tighten a screw on baby's pram.
TK, I did not know that about you, very impressive indeed. O0
What is needed is a good test stand to vet claimed FE devices.
Regards
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Graham
Looks like that patent uses a battery. Does it predate Kettering?
Regards
Well, as you can probably tell I do use that "test-stand" approach when I look at these things. My circuit layouts are deliberately designed so I can easily get to and replace every part if necessary, change things around, whatever. That's why I don't use pad-per-hole prototype boards until much later in the process, if ever, and I build almost like the schematic layout, with power legs on top and bottom and the "action" happening between the legs... er.... well, you know what I mean.
Oh yeah baby.....
Slippy pistons.....
:D
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.28, 20:05:28
Well, as you can probably tell I do use that "test-stand" approach when I look at these things. My circuit layouts are deliberately designed so I can easily get to and replace every part if necessary, change things around, whatever. That's why I don't use pad-per-hole prototype boards until much later in the process, if ever, and I build almost like the schematic layout, with power legs on top and bottom and the "action" happening between the legs... er.... well, you know what I mean.
Yes, I've always liked your breadboard approach.
If someone brings us an engine, we should insist on knowing what the claims are so that we can set up the "test stand" properly.
I guess what I meant by "test stand" is we should know what the claims are for a device so we can set the appropriate loads and speeds on the dyno, and the type of fuel to be used.
In the case of electronic devices, input voltage and current, and output loads, resistive, inductive or other, expected power etc.
Without that the burden is placed on us to guess, go in circles, cut and try, waste time.
Quote from: ION on 2017.04.28, 22:29:13
In the case of electronic devices, input voltage and current, and output loads, resistive, inductive or other, expected power etc.
Without that the burden is placed on us to guess, go in circles, cut and try, waste time.
Yes
Trying to do that now,but seems to be a big ask when asking how to calculate power dissipated by the coil's,and power factor correction for real power value's. C.C
Brad
Quote from: ION on 2017.04.28, 17:12:33
Dear Graham
Yes, Brad has extensive engine skills and I think Chet was an aviation mechanic at one point, and is always rebuilding some engine. I'm sure there are others that I have not named so please chime in if you are out there.
Some are CDI where the capacitor is charged to a high voltage from a separate winding on the magneto, then the capacitor is discharged at the appropriate time into a low turns count winding to generate the spark.
Another type uses a transistor that is held on (like the points dwell time) which allows current to build in the core winding until the appropriate moment when the transistor is allowed to open, then the spark is produced. The tricky thing is that it is all done with just the magneto powering the circuit, holding the transistor on and turning it off.....no external power source for timing control.
I don't know anything about Tesla's Igniter patent, but HV sparks was right up his alley.
Regarding Nelson's bifilar pancake coils, he doesn't use them in the mini exciter, so if the mini exciter is a teaching principle / learning tool towards some better end result, it has left out the main ingredient.
Regards
Todays younger generation are not being taught the old school ways.
Some time ago,i asked one of the younger mechanic's a simple question.
Being fresh out of nappies(just completed his apprenticeship),and thinking he knew all there is to know(because his papers said he dose),i asked the very simple question-->do you increase or decrease the points gap,to advance the timing?.
He stood there ,looking at me,if to say--what the-----are you talking about.
The question finally came out-->what are point's he asked :o
Why is it,as a mechanic,i am required to keep up to date with all modern tech,but todays youth are not even taught the most basic thing's--that still exist today,i might add.
I would still rather work on a robust points ignition system,than any of the (might last) modern day rubbish.
Anyway,below a pic of the donner of my new project--turning an old VW motor into a single cylinder-open crank engine-red neck style ;D
Oh,and with an electromagnetic governor O0
The motor only turns about 10* ,before we get lockup with a loud clunk lol.
Suspect a thrown rod,but will see soon enough.
Brad
ION
On another note,looking at your bench,i see this thread was started,and only one post--what happened?
This would directly relate to this thread,would it not?
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=606.0
Brad
Heh... looking at that old VW motor brings back memories and makes my hands itch for tools. It looks like a 1500-1600 cc type with singleport heads and vacuum-advance distributor. Too bad the carb is missing, originally took a Solex 28 or 30 I think. More common failure than thrown rod is a dropped valve, which will also cause the lockup and clunk especially if there are pieces of the shattered piston all through there. They will throw rods too if the operator ran them dry of oil.
I've rebuilt so many of those I can't even count them. Still have all the tooling necessary, including cylinder hones. Too bad I'm not in your hemisphere, I'd be over there helping you wrench on that thing, it's about a four-beer job. Take that sucker apart, install helicoil inserts for all the main studs, alignbore the case, turn the crank, fit over-undersized main bearings, polish the camshaft, install a complete set of 1640 cc Kolbenschmidt pistons and cylinders, mass-balance the 4 conrods, replace the distributor with a straight mechanical advance Bosch Porsche distributor and high voltage blue coil, flycut the heads, fit new exhaust valves, a tuned header instead of the stock exhaust system.... I'd make that sucker roar.
Quote from: ION on 2017.04.28, 22:29:13
Yes, I've always liked your breadboard approach.
If someone brings us an engine, we should insist on knowing what the claims are so that we can set up the "test stand" properly.
I guess what I meant by "test stand" is we should know what the claims are for a device so we can set the appropriate loads and speeds on the dyno, and the type of fuel to be used.
In the case of electronic devices, input voltage and current, and output loads, resistive, inductive or other, expected power etc.
Without that the burden is placed on us to guess, go in circles, cut and try, waste time.
Yes, exactly, and that is what is so frustrating about this NR project. We don't know what we need to know in order to make an effective exploration of the thing. Here, I am now using a TIP35C transistor. Is that important? Will I destroy my chances of seeing whatever the point is, if I don't use a TIP122 Darlington? Who knows? I doubt if even NR knows. That's why I have to keep my sense of humour and irony intact about this.
Quote from: TinMan on 2017.04.29, 00:47:24
ION
On another note,looking at your bench,i see this thread was started,and only one post--what happened?
This would directly relate to this thread,would it not?
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=606.0
Brad
Brad I never developed that thread further because most of my work was spent in related threads on my bench concerning how to test a blocking oscillator and the spurious behavior identified as in this post:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=602.msg9543#msg9543
I also decided that there were far better tutorials on line than I could write for how to engineer a JT, blocking oscillator, or ringing choke converter (RCC) as they are also known.
But first, as said in that post, you need to specify what you needed the device to do, then you could proceed. Many of the tutorials on line are heavy on math, but I think it's also good to have a feel for what is going on in the circuit, what causes what to happen, and that is where I should continue the topic.
e.g. what causes the different types of ringing that occurs after the flyback pulse has dumped nearly all of it's energy. Why do we become fascinated with that ringing and the shape of the decay What factors shape the frequency and damping ratio of the ringing. Why really efficient converters do not have the ringing, so what is it?
Maybe I should continue the thread in that spirit, identifying causes for certain waveshapes.
Regards
Quote from: TinMan on 2017.04.28, 23:55:56
Yes
Trying to do that now,but seems to be a big ask when asking how to calculate power dissipated by the coil's,and power factor correction for real power value's. C.C
Brad
Well, you could take this approach:
You know the power input, right? And you know the power dissipated in the resistors themselves, which is less than the power input. So "clearly" the rest of the input power is being dissipated or lost in the inductors, by radiation, joule heating, core losses if any, and perhaps even reflection back into the power supply.
Of course that makes the _assumption_ that Conservation of Energy applies already. ;)
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.29, 01:50:11
Yes, exactly, and that is what is so frustrating about this NR project. We don't know what we need to know in order to make an effective exploration of the thing. Here, I am now using a TIP35C transistor. Is that important? Will I destroy my chances of seeing whatever the point is, if I don't use a TIP122 Darlington? Who knows? I doubt if even NR knows. That's why I have to keep my sense of humour and irony intact about this.
Hi TK
Looks like the TIP35C is a much more robust device , the same voltage rating but much higher 5 times the current rating, but it is not a Darlington. The TIP35C has a DC current gain of about 25 whereas the TIP122 with the compound transistors has a DC current gain of 1000 minimum.
What does this mean? If you want the possibility of a lot of spurious oscillation modes, the TIP122 is the way to go, whereas the TIP35C will generally be more tame and controlled. It is really hard to even compare the two devices as they are vastly different animals. Only thing in common they are classed as
switching transistors, but that is a wide definition. The TIP35C is also classed as a general purpose power amplifier. Gain bandwidth product is also probably very different for the devices, as well as output capacitance.
I might add that the data sheets I have are from two different manufacturers. It might be better to compare the two devices from the same manufacturer so that the data sheets are similar in form.
Hope that helps
Yes, ION you are absolutely right. Without knowing what is considered "important" one really can't choose between the two transistors.
Myself, I like to see the high voltages on the output without seeing excessive transistor heating, so for me, the TIP35C works "Better" than the TIP122. But in my construction, changing from one transistor to the other is simply a matter of loosening and tightening three screws in a terminal block. Don't even have to fire up the soldering iron. So it is easy for me to do comparisons, and if someone will just tell me what is important, what are the desired waveforms, etc. I can easily change to the transistor that will give me those characteristics.
But the TIP35C still even gives me those long-duration oscillations after disconnecting the main power supply, so I'm not convinced that the high gain of the TIP122 is actually important for even that effect either.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.29, 01:44:56
Heh... looking at that old VW motor brings back memories and makes my hands itch for tools. It looks like a 1500-1600 cc type with singleport heads and vacuum-advance distributor. Too bad the carb is missing, originally took a Solex 28 or 30 I think. More common failure than thrown rod is a dropped valve, which will also cause the lockup and clunk especially if there are pieces of the shattered piston all through there. They will throw rods too if the operator ran them dry of oil.
I've rebuilt so many of those I can't even count them. Still have all the tooling necessary, including cylinder hones. Too bad I'm not in your hemisphere, I'd be over there helping you wrench on that thing, it's about a four-beer job. Take that sucker apart, install helicoil inserts for all the main studs, alignbore the case, turn the crank, fit over-undersized main bearings, polish the camshaft, install a complete set of 1640 cc Kolbenschmidt pistons and cylinders, mass-balance the 4 conrods, replace the distributor with a straight mechanical advance Bosch Porsche distributor and high voltage blue coil, flycut the heads, fit new exhaust valves, a tuned header instead of the stock exhaust system.... I'd make that sucker roar.
Lol-yah the VW motor :D
Yes,a 1500 single port.
A couple of friends of mine,and myself,where heavily into beach buggies here in S/W of WA,as we had 100's of square miles of sand dunes right at our front door.
All that work and modifications TK,when a simple turbo placed on a 1300 yields 128hp ;)
QuoteSolex 28 or 30 I think.
Yes,a terrible carby.
We use to put the 138 holden grey motor stromberg carby ,with variable main jet on the VW motor's,and worked a treat once fuel mix was correctly adjusted.The 1600 twin ports went very well,with a correctly jetted 350 holly as well.
Wait until you see the video i just shot of the strip down--this motor has been to hell and back lol.
It's been like 15 years since i have touched one of these engine's,and there getting rare here now.
Man-a million memories came flashing back.
Friday nights was always!rebuild the VW buggy engine!night with mate's,back in the day.
You could buy a full rebuild kit(new barrels,pistons,ring's,shell's,and gasket kit),for under $250.00 back then.
Ah-those were the days :)
Brad
All this talk of rebuilding VW engines is way more interesting to me than the NR JT. I had a 67 bus, a 76 bus, a 68 fastback, and I think one was a 69 squareback. When the 67 engine developed so much slop in the main bearing and connecting rods it was time to pull it, so after taking it into the basement and stripping it down, ordering new jugs and pistons, and a bunch of other stuff, I decided I lacked the skill and experience to pull off the rebuild, but found a friend to walk me through it. Call me chicken......I think it was the idea of messing with plastigauge and those tight bearing tolerances that made me squeemish. I also lacked the proper tools.
Why did I have so many EFI vehicles?.......I was an electronics guy! stupid moves. :-[
I understand how it feels to be a fish out of water when it comes to skillsets. ;)
Well we have thoroughly derailed this thread. Now how do we convince Jim and Graham that this is indeed related somehow to the NR thingy? :D
Hmmm....
It seems you guys had " the need for speed " bug?
For me as a young man most of my youth was spent exploring our beautiful higher regions of North Wales interspersed with my other passion of caving.
Married at 20 and a mortgage left very little cash for playing with so I just bumbled along.
The last major delve for me was when my BMW D sport ingested a swirl flap which necessitated a lid off and remove broken bits of Stainless steel. Other than a chipped vane on the Turbo and minor dings in number 3 piston and head I got off very lucky.
I'm really happy with my 180 BHP Diesel..... Old Rudolf could never have imagined such RPM !!
Cheers Graham.
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017.04.29, 02:46:08
Yes, ION you are absolutely right. Without knowing what is considered "important" one really can't choose between the two transistors.
Myself, I like to see the high voltages on the output without seeing excessive transistor heating, so for me, the TIP35C works "Better" than the TIP122. But in my construction, changing from one transistor to the other is simply a matter of loosening and tightening three screws in a terminal block. Don't even have to fire up the soldering iron. So it is easy for me to do comparisons, and if someone will just tell me what is important, what are the desired waveforms, etc. I can easily change to the transistor that will give me those characteristics.
But the TIP35C still even gives me those long-duration oscillations after disconnecting the main power supply, so I'm not convinced that the high gain of the TIP122 is actually important for even that effect either.
Yes the TIP35C will go out to 3 MHz GBW.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gain%E2%80%93bandwidth_product
Regarding the long run times, if the circuit is not providing any output power, it can "freewheel" for a long time, until the caps run down. How long does it run without the two power supply bypass caps?
What is important to remember that Blocking Oscillators are different in operational principles than typical feedback oscillators, but the various parasitic modes are produced when the circuit is "changing modes" or when the blocking oscillator is "between modes"
With the higher gain of the TIP122 you are more likely to have the required gain to support some of the intermediate oscillation modes i.e modes available when the transistor is not fully off or fully on but at some point in between. These are the normal feedback oscillator modes and gain available must support oscillation criteria if it is to oscillate in these "between state modes"
On the other hand due to the 3MHz GBW of the TIP35C you may have just enough gain to be able to hit some really high frequency (but less than 3MHZ) modes of oscillation.
Then there is the other factor: stiffness of the power source. A saggy or current limited supply or supply chain can cause a low frequency "burst mode" of oscillation due to the recharge time constants of the rail capacitors. We used to call this "motorboating". There are many causes for "motorboating" besides a "soft" supply. It could also be caused by drive being quenched due to long time constants in the base drive scheme.
A highly recommended read for all in this investigation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorboating_%28electronics%29
we see there is the odd heavy handed base drive that has it's own long and short time constants due to sheer capacitor size and esr, and also capacitance of the diode in that circuit. We cannot at this time know what the builder had in mind in this choice of circuit configuration. The rest is straight JT with multiple output paths.
Lots of stuff to juggle here. A good designer would present the rationale for his choice of each of the components in a complete circuit description, that is,if he truly wanted to teach an art. :)
If he wanted to play cat and mouse games, that is another story. ;)
There is a third story possible as well. And that is that the Designer honestly thinks he knows what he is designing and what he is trying to teach, but actually doesn't.
Do you have Nelson videos available somewhere ?
Ha, no response. I found that Nelson replicated Kapanadze device or at least was very close to it. He knew Tesla way to convert radiant energy into low voltage high current pulses (described in his lectures ), just no so frequent but I suppose he already improved it so he may have the technology which Kapanadze, Barbosa&Leal, Melnichenko have.
With all that knowledge why we are still in dark ages of people not having electricity and gas prices rising 1000% ?
Quote from: forest on 2022.01.06, 19:32:36
Ha, no response. I found that Nelson replicated Kapanadze device or at least was very close to it. He knew Tesla way to convert radiant energy into low voltage high current pulses (described in his lectures ), just no so frequent but I suppose he already improved it so he may have the technology which Kapanadze, Barbosa&Leal, Melnichenko have.
With all that knowledge why we are still in dark ages of people not having electricity and gas prices rising 1000% ?
started working on this again yesterday. Given myself quite a few belts. Need to tie one hand behind my back. Something interesting I found by accident was if I connected a lamp and a spark gap in series between the dc ground of my fwbr and the "ground" of my mot output, I could dimly light my incandescent 12watt lamp and get a neon to partially light with single wire. The mot puts out around 800volts with 7v 200ma input which I'm using instead of the 25/240v transformer. It did make my garage rf remote openers inoperable when running as my wife discovered when returning from the shops. I'll try and do a video tonight. Need a csr on the output as my meters said it was 12ma at 785volts which is wrong as my lamp should have been a lot brighter if that was correct.
Forest:
This was Nelson's last and best device. As far as I know...
He did mention that it does not self run for long. It reuses the same original one second charge, for a short while, but, it does not produce Free Energy.
And No, he did not replicate any of the Kapanadze devices. The device in the video below, was his own design.
The Slavs still dominate the self running technology. We don't know how to make it work, as yet. And, neither does Nelson.
Nelson Rocha:
https://youtu.be/9H3JMMKu-DM
NickZ
He did replicate imho method of Kapanadze converting HF hV into low voltage. I have some videos posted by Nelson downloaded , so I can prove it.
Look here https://youtu.be/rM6DMoa2ezw
Quote from: forest on 2022.02.27, 18:12:59
NickZ
He did replicate imho method of Kapanadze converting HF hV into low voltage. I have some videos posted by Nelson downloaded , so I can prove it.
Look here https://youtu.be/rM6DMoa2ezw
ahaa a spark gap. I will have some fun tonight.
Quote from: forest on 2022.02.27, 18:12:59
NickZ
He did replicate imho method of Kapanadze converting HF hV into low voltage. I have some videos posted by Nelson downloaded , so I can prove it.
Look here https://youtu.be/rM6DMoa2ezw
Forest: I'll be waiting for you to prove that Nelson has a self running Free Energy device. I don't care if it's a conversion device, or not.
As all free energy devices are a conversion devices. In order to be able produce "extra power" and self running. Any "extra power" has to come from somewhere, and be converted to a use able source. Input to output readings would show, NO GAIN in Nelson's case, and less output than the input source.
Kapanadze devices are still a secret.
There are several of us that have actually replicated some of the different versions of the Akula/Ruslan/Stalker devices. Yet, none of us, including Nelson, has gotten anywhere with this. And have now given up. Converting HV/HF to Low voltage is not the missing secret answer to all our unresolved issues toward showing and having Free Energy. Please prove me wrong, as the Kapanadze devices have never been replicated and shown WORKING, nor have any of Nelson's devices. As I said Nelson has mentioned repeatedly that his devices don't self run. And he did work for VW in Germany, to develop a self running car, needing no batteries, but things turned into a nightmare for him there.
So anyway, good luck with that. Just trying to help...and to help people avoid wasting more time on what does not work. So, we can focus of what does.
NickZ
PS. I did invite both Nelson Rocha, as well as GeoFusion on to both this forum, as well as OU.com. BUT, both of them have now given up on these tests.
Quote from: NickZ on 2022.02.28, 13:39:16
Forest: I'll be waiting for you to prove that Nelson has a self running Free Energy device. I don't care if it's a conversion device, or not.
As all free energy devices are a conversion devices. In order to be able produce "extra power" and self running. Any "extra power" has to come from somewhere, and be converted to a use able source. Input to output readings would show, NO GAIN in Nelson's case, and less output than the input source.
Kapanadze devices are still a secret.
There are several of us that have actually replicated some of the different versions of the Akula/Ruslan/Stalker devices. Yet, none of us, including Nelson, has gotten anywhere with this. And have now given up. Converting HV/HF to Low voltage is not the missing secret answer to all our unresolved issues toward showing and having Free Energy. Please prove me wrong, as the Kapanadze devices have never been replicated and shown WORKING, nor have any of Nelson's devices. As I said Nelson has mentioned repeatedly that his devices don't self run. And he did work for VW in Germany, to develop a self running car, needing no batteries, but things turned into a nightmare for him there.
So anyway, good luck with that. Just trying to help...and to help people avoid wasting more time on what does not work. So, we can focus of what does.
NickZ
PS. I did invite both Nelson Rocha, as well as GeoFusion on to both this forum, as well as OU.com. BUT, both of them have now given up on these tests.
Oh man of little faith watch this around 1:06------> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEND8dlUp1Y
NickZ
I only said that Nelson had figured out the conversion of HV HF into big current and his setup is very close to what Kapanadze showed in his first device ("green box") . For me running device consuming hundreds of watts from 9 V battery is already free energy. I wish we could do it currently, would be much easier to step forward. Just a resonant circuit and a way to convert HV into big current without destroying resonance is required.
Another inventor with self-running device : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0CvyfIuoGU
Quote from: forest on 2022.02.28, 15:48:18
NickZ
I only said that Nelson had figured out the conversion of HV HF into big current and his setup is very close to what Kapanadze showed in his first device ("green box") . For me running device consuming hundreds of watts from 9 V battery is already free energy. I wish we could do it currently, would be much easier to step forward. Just a resonant circuit and a way to convert HV into big current without destroying resonance is required.
That may be what you think, but Nelson has not even gotten close to what Kapanadze has shown, lately.
Nor is there free energy nor self running in any of Nelsons devices. So, no he has not figured out anything, at all.
Nor is there hundreds of watts being "consumed" from a 9v battery, as you assume.
I have linked Nelson's video, showing that the battery is only used to kick start the device, for ONE second, and is then disconnected.
NickZ
Quote from: NickZ on 2022.02.28, 20:16:32
That may be what you think, but Nelson has not even gotten close to what Kapanadze has shown, lately.
Nor is there free energy nor self running in any of Nelsons devices. So, no he has not figured out anything, at all.
Nor is there hundreds of watts being "consumed" from a 9v battery, as you assume.
I have linked Nelson's video, showing that the battery is only used to kick start the device, for ONE second, and is then disconnected.
NickZ
So, what about this little invention thats coming from our brothers in Zimbabwe ???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukJkRQscNb0
Sil
That will get buried, like All the others.
That corrupt country is not on our side, either.
NickZ
Quote from: AlienGrey on 2022.03.01, 12:20:14
So, what about this little invention thats coming from our brothers in Zimbabwe ???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukJkRQscNb0
Sil
i connected with Maxwell yesterday on LinkedIn. Seems like a good bloke.
Quote from: JimBoot on 2022.03.03, 21:27:58
i connected with Maxwell yesterday on LinkedIn. Seems like a good bloke.
Did you ask him how it worked?
He refered to the card as a microphonic device, back in the 20's valves were microphonic due mainly to the heater being the cathode, flick the envelope
and it would fly into oscillation, fascinating.
Sil