Chet and I have been discussing sustainable microgreen production for the nuclear family for quite a while... this is a work in progress...tbc...
O0
Rob
been dragging my But on this one...will take some Pics of supplies I picked up too long ago ...and doing the first step...
thank you I needed this. O0
If its true what Brad told me...its remarkable.
50lbs seed makes almost 500 lbs food in 7 days [micro greens
hardly any energy required too.
GROWING MICROGREENS 101
https://www.bootstrapfarmer.com/blogs/microgreens/how-to-grow-microgreens-101
TOP TEN MICROGREENS
https://www.bootstrapfarmer.com/blogs/microgreens/top-ten-microgreens
MICROGREENS CHEAT SHEET
https://www.bootstrapfarmer.com/blogs/microgreens/the-ultimate-microgreen-cheat-sheet
Chet, I have put you some links up for study at your leisure from a site I really like.
I am interested in developing the hydroponic system into an automated unit that only requires loading fresh seed and removing grown microgreens for harvest.
I also want to build in a simple water steam purification unit which combined with the food system provides what people need in the developing world.
The water purification will take the lion's share of the energy required to run the system 24/7.
I will be focusing on seeds like sunflower and peas because they need soak and misting processes to germinate. A small pond fogger on a timer should provide the misting function.
Small led grow strips providing the light needed towards the end of the growth cycle, something like these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Pack-LED-Grow-Light-with-Timer-40W-T5-Grow-Lights-Strip-Grow-Lamp-Bar-4-Lev/392814911168?hash=item5b7597dec0:g:5fIAAOSwzn9ezk~9
Quote from: EvolvingApe
I also want to build in a simple water steam purification unit which combined
with the food system provides what people need in the developing world.
The water purification will take the lion's share of the energy required to run
the system 24/7.
Could a Solar Water Heater be used to heat the water sufficiently or is it
something that would need to be operational 24/7?
Good question. A solar still could certainly be incorporated to pre heat the water with the final phase change energy coming from a simple resistive heater like the RV community use.
An off the shelf little example:
https://waterdistillers.com/collections/steampure-water-distiller/products/steampure-water-distiller-distiller-only
700 watts continuous for an output of 16 liters in a 24 hour period.
Could be run for example from a solar panel but assuming an 8 hour working period would need a 3kW panel system for a 24 hour working cycle at 1kW.
Needs sizing to the drinking water requirement of the people it is serving while also providing a substantial balanced microgreen staple food source.
I was planning to run it from a hhop gen 4 open loop which wouldn't need to be too big for a 1kW system and many rivers would provide the mass flow of water required. This would mean the capacity factor of the gen 4 would be 0.997 assuming one day per year downtime for maintenance...
The pH of water from a steam distilled source is 7 moving to about 5.8 as it absorbs carbon dioxide from the air according to various sources, so it's in the right ballpark for what we need.
;)
Rob
very good info...I am hoping to do a few methods [would luv a dependable hydroponics
solution too.
perhaps managed with arduino or similar ?
Thanks again
and for clarity my goal is to hopefully find a power source [FE ] to run this anywhere on the planet ...and help feed the world in a more planet friendly way [housing too]
your contributions go a long way towards that goal.
I am following the same path Chet. I have one of these:
https://www.garlandproducts.com/grow-light-garden-black.html
I will be running some comparison experiments between the light bulb tube in this kit and the T5 LED strips I previously linked too as they are the same fitting size and comparable in low energy required.
I also have some microgreens growing in the garden in a very condensed footprint ( I have about a dozen sunflowers growing currently in the same pot ) to see how they do for the purpose of easily harvestable seed.
To that end have a watch of this happy chappy:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tAkDgOwR6hc
I still have a lot of work to do on this subject like identifying the ideal seed for an automated microgreen factory powered exclusively by the Earth's precipitation system ( a river ), but I am getting there! Be nice to have some help :)
The largest energy demand for the gen 4 open loop automated microgreen factory is without a doubt the steam distillation system. There are off the shelf options but they have a complicated parts system. A better option is an RV resistive heater element as previously discussed:
https://www.amazon.com/rv-water-heater-element/s?k=rv+water+heater+element&rh=n%3A228013
As you can see many sizes available offering 3+ kW in some examples. Now all you need is a condenser system which basically requires a heat sink, and we have a really good one available because our factory is sited on a large mass flow river!
Once the clean distilled water has been used in the germination stage it can be flushed into a separate chamber where we are growing our seed stock...
Now we need to think about fertiliser...
Our microgreen seeds don't need it just clean 6 pH water and we have that figured out.
Our seed stock that is allowed to go to flower does need it however, so let's talk about poo!
I have been using worm castings:
https://www.epicgardening.com/worm-castings/
However, I don't have a worm farm for sustainability and so I have had to buy it, not a great option!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_manure
Green manure is an option for the automated farm, we grow our own fertiliser using the power of the river to feed our seed stock.
If we have a 600 Watt seed stock chamber and a 600 Watt green manure fertiliser chamber and we have a 3000 Watt water distillation system that takes us to 4.2kW. If we aim for a 5kW system that leaves us 800 Watts for the microgreen chamber and control systems, should be plenty!
We can also put solar panels on top of the gen 4 facility for an extra energy boost on the same footprint! Solar panel capacity factor sucks at about 0.25 ;D but maybe just as well utilise them as part of the overall energy density footprint of the free energy system.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacity_factor
https://sunmetrix.com/what-is-capacity-factor-and-how-does-solar-energy-compare/
A well structured Compost Heap will attract many earthworms while
creating a very nutrient rich humus.
Composting 101 (https://morningchores.com/composting/)
How to make Compost (https://www.bhg.com/gardening/yard/compost/how-to-compost/)
Quote from: evolvingape on 2020.06.04, 15:36:48
If we have a 600 Watt seed stock chamber and a 600 Watt green manure fertiliser chamber and we have a 3000 Watt water distillation system that takes us to 4.2kW. If we aim for a 5kW system that leaves us 800 Watts for the microgreen chamber and control systems, should be plenty!
Taking this situation a little further we can analyse the stated 600W for both growing chambers.
The 600W refers to a continuous level of energy input to the growing lights over a 24 hour period. We won't need continuous light like this as we are providing an artificial sun equivalent.
The 600W split across two growing chambers would allow us to run each chamber for 12 hours each alternately.
The 600W split across 3 chambers would allow us to run each chamber for 8 hours each.
You could alternatively reduce your chambers down to one with a 200W requirement but that seems counterproductive when we can size the gen 4 to 600W continuous.
I plan to run a series of experiments later this year to determine the period the light needs to be on to provide viable seed. Hopefully 8 hours is enough because that increases our potential seed stock by 50% for a light on period reduction of only a 1/3. If we can get away with 6 hours high quality light then our potential seed stock has doubled for a halving of the light period.
Viable seed is what we want not plants that will win the Chelsea flower show!
Rob
I am recruiting converts for this project,also I believe I did mention to you
at some point the microBiome and how it is incredibly connected to our health.
I will be posting a bit on that [small explanation from a layman who claims many diseases we are having in our society ATM are Due for extermination /elimination from society
thru our Gut management...[MicroBiome :stupefying science advancements and understanding going on ATM
Note to Mudped
thanks for input...yes Woyms [NYC slang for worms]...we have a new open source Lab opening in your neighborhood extreme southwest USA [a few other members here out that way too ...will be tooling up that lab albeit slowly
as its mostly one very dedicated member who will be experimenting there.
and his wish is to grow the open source group there [mine too...
Plus he built a looped food growing system there years back [fish too]
now he is back to grow the group... and lab... for open source work [all he does]
and his goal is also Robs dream ...an autonomous community ...of like minded persons working to make the world a better Place.[a global community with habitats everywhere...[the "outback" too]...teaching and training others...
could really use an FE energy source tho..
respectfully
Chet
Within a community of people living together there will be a
quantity of "poop" to contend with and, very fortunately, it
is easy to convert that "poop" and other scraps unsuitable
for composting, into Energy.
With a fairly simple setup a BioGas generator could be put
to use to produce gas for cooking, for running generators
when needed, and even for powering a car. A small company
in Israel makes BioGas Generators for home use which are
reasonably priced. It is also quite easy to make a BioGas
generator with materials readily available oneself.
The amount of BioGas that several people together can make
is really quite astounding. Lots of video on YouTube.
Quote from: Chet K on 2020.06.05, 17:40:17
could really use an FE energy source tho..
Chet, I'll try again...
Is a small powerful power source that is infinite and free going to help us toward personal freedom or personal isolation and feudalism ?
Ever read Deathworld 2 by Harry Harrison (1964, initially titled The Ethical Engineer) ?
Would a large power source that requires cooperation amongst all with zero ecological cost benefit everyone more effectively ?
I love rivers...
Historically the Nile was a great example of how civilisation in the desert sprung up along the green river banks.
Here is a snippet of another example:
https://www.britannica.com/place/Ganges-River/Hydroelectric-power
Hydroelectric powerThe hydroelectric potential of the Ganges and its tributaries is enormous—estimates have ranged from some 51,700 to 128,700 megawatts—of which about two-fifths lies within India and the rest in Nepal. Some of that potential has been exploited in India, including hydroelectric developments on headwater tributaries of the Ganges in Uttarakhand (e.g., the Bhagirathi and Alaknanda rivers), on the upper Yamuna River and its tributaries in Himachal Pradesh, and, farther downstream, in the Ganges basin along the Chambal (a right-bank tributary of the Yamuna) and Rihand rivers. Only a tiny fraction of Nepal's hydroelectric generating capacity has been exploited.
Environmental issuesConcern has grown over the environmental impact of hydroelectric dams, including habitat destruction for wildlife (terrestrial and aquatic), forced relocation of people living in the paths of dams and reservoirs, loss of agricultural land, and disruption of water supplies for inhabitants near the completed dams. Some have called for reductions in the amount of power generated, redesigning dams to make them and their impounded reservoirs less intrusive, and even moratoriums on future dam construction in some areas.
So, 51 to 129 MW is considered enormous energy potential is it ?
hhop gen 4 open loop will produce GW's from the same river length with zero environmental impact.
Ask some of your clever friends a favour... Sit down with pen and pencil and do the simple math and peer review hhop gen 4 open loop potential for this river flow... then let's talk again.
evolving ape
QuoteI also want to build in a simple water steam purification unit which combined
with the food system provides what people need in the developing world.
The water purification will take the lion's share of the energy required to run
the system 24/7.
https://www.cawst.org/services/expertise/biosand-filter/more-information
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosand_filter
The BSFs was developed by Dr. David Manz in the 1990s at University of Calgary, Canada.
I built and tested this technology years ago and it works unbelievably well. The fact is, nature has always done things better, cheaper and more sustainable than mankind. It works so well I designed my own 1 litre/min Arduino automated system and all that is required on the front end is a small UV light to finish any water to exceed municipal standards. I also used a 1" thick activated carbon top layer which absorbs any heavy metals, herbicides and pesticides.
In effect this technology acts just like a natural wetland using biological processes. Imagine having a wetland the size of a football field in your back yard naturally purifying all your water with no chemicals, that is what this unit does. It's strange, I have decades of industrial water treatment experience but this simple technology is light years ahead of that. What nature can accomplish with low technology and almost no energy input just blows me away.
If anyone is interested and wants more info just give me a shout.
Regards
Shout.... :) and thanks for the offer...we have fellows who know there way around programing an arduino and perhaps I can learn too.
O0
to be clear ...I don't seem to have a green Thumb...[always upto my elbows in greasy
motors
I hate greasy motors....
That's really helpful AC thanks very much. The exhaust water from the gen 4 already has gravitational potential so it can be fed directly into the top of the Biosand filter. This frees up all the electrical energy to go toward food production and means I can make the system itself much smaller.
Good stuff! O0
Chet
The system I designed doesn't really need an Arduino and is mainly a safeguard, backwash regeneration sequencer and quality control monitor.
My system was designed for my dugout water or a river/stream. It basically uses a 12v solar or 120v pressure pump to feed toilet float valves at the top of each biological sand filter (BSF) to maintain the level or static pressure head. Generally for a whole house unit four plastic barrels as BSF's with three in service and one in regeneration works well. The effluent or output from the BSF's goes to a common header and is then pumped up to household pressure. From here an off the shelf activated carbon 5 micron finishing filter and UV light finish the job.
The Arduino does something really neat, I made a diy capacitive probe using two stainless wires to measure and monitor water turbidity at the BSF output. Turbidity is the TDS or total dissolved solids which is measured by conductivity. As such one probe wire is connected to the common 5v output from the Arduino and the other wire goes to an analog input such as A0-A9. The analog input or analogRead value from the probe ranges from 0 to 1023, near zero is perfectly clean like RO water and unfiltered well water ranges from 300 to 500. The more dirty the water the greater the turbidity or TDS, the greater the conductivity and a higher voltage read at the analog pins. Thus we can easily measure and monitor the efficiency of each BSF and use a cheap irrigation type solenoid to remove a unit from service and regenerate if needed.
The Arduino can also regenerate a BSF by back washing it just like any other sand filter. This is done by closing the water output solenoid valve then opening a clean water valve at the bottom of the unit to slowly reverse the water flow upward and out a dirty water overflow outlet at the top of the unit. The back washing can also be done manually every couple weeks as well. Thus with a $10 micro-controller and some solenoids and probe wires this system can be fully automated quite easily.
Basically a cheap BSF system with an output of 1 litre/min provides 60 L/hr, 1440 L/day or 390 gallons/day, which is average use minus external use like watering the lawn. My system also uses inlet toilet float valves/open barrels and a secondary pump system to avoid the most costly part of most systems which is the necessity of pressure vessels. The real kicker here is that this inexpensive technology can remove calcium/magnesium hardness and iron as well if not better than many very expensive systems, it's basically food for the microorganisms.
Regards
AC
a very simple and useful tool for water purification ....Where I live now is an artesian well.
when I first moved here they had another method for quality control of the drinking water.
There were little sheds over the well supply... where water was fed to all the homes and they had Trout living in there.
If the trout thrived...everybody was happy and drank the water ,if the fish died ...nobody drank the water and it needed checking. It was actually somebodies job to keep small baby trout in the little houses and monitor them.
I use the British Berkefield
https://preview.britishberkefeld.us/
thanks for the info.
Chet
A Tale of Two Courgettes
Here is a picture of one experiment I have been conducting. The little ones are in poor soil in an air permeable cloth pot.
The big ones are in self watering containers with my own enriched fertiliser, I call it the poo mix... Remind me of something I would expect to see in Jurassic Park! That's a 12" ruler added for scale.
Compact Sunflowers
Here is an experiment in a non self watering pot with more than 20 sunflowers growing at the same time. We shall see how they progress, I am looking for viable seed!
Chet
The biggest problem here is hardness and iron in well water and river/lake pollutants. Most people are unaware of how polluted our water has become around populated areas. Meanwhile the conservative governments are gutting what minimal regulations we had to protect the environment.
It's sad when all my fishing buddies say the fishing was good but too bad they can't eat them. I didn't think anyone would let the environment get this polluted... but they did.
River valley civilization
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_valley_civilization
A river valley civilization is an agricultural nation or civilization situated beside and drawing sustenance from a river. A "civilization" means a society with large permanent settlements featuring urban development, social satisfaction, specialization of labor, centralized organization, and written or other formal means of communication.
A river gives the inhabitants a reliable source of water for drinking and agriculture. Additional benefits include fishing, fertile soil due to annual flooding, and ease of transportation. The first great civilizations, such as those in Mesopotamia and Egypt, all grew up in river valleys.
Quote from: evolvingape on 2020.06.17, 15:44:55
A river gives the inhabitants a reliable source of water for drinking and agriculture. Additional benefits include fishing, fertile soil due to annual flooding, and ease of transportation.
A river can also give you huge amounts of electricity in addition to the above benefits, if you have developed the suitable 100% green technology to attach to the wheelworks of its nature.
Broccoli Florets
Good news on compact broccoli growing. I planted 4 and ended up with 6. They are doing very well and should be finished in 2 to 4 weeks, in a single self watering container. They require a lot of water!
Quote from: EvolvingApe
I planted 4 and ended up with 6.
Amazing! :o
Is this a new form of OverUnity? ???
How did you accomplish this COP? ;)
Quote from: muDped on 2020.06.22, 21:38:58
Amazing! :o
Is this a new form of OverUnity? ???
How did you accomplish this COP? ;)
;D
It seems that the poo mix I used was so nutrient rich that it encouraged an offshoot from the main plant to grow at 90 degrees near the soil for approximately 4 inches then turn vertical for a second plant off the same root system. This is my best guess as I am not a gardener by trade, it's just a minor hobby.
This may be a similar phenomenon to pollarding where severing the main trunk encourages multiple side growths that turn vertical.
Linear trees are also interesting, I have four.
Four Pot Grown Dwarf Patio PILLAR Fruit Trees Mini Orchard
https://www.gardeningexpress.co.uk/garden-plants/fruit-trees/patio-fruit-trees/four-pot-grown-dwarf-patio-pillar-fruit-trees-mini-orchard
My Braeburn pillar apple tree will have a 1 meter square footprint and will crop very heavily. I am told they take a young branch and graft it onto a trunk and root ball so it grows vertical only with pruning and not horizontal.
Pretty cool should get all four in an artificial grow box 600 to 1200 watts should do it!
Pretty cool! ;D
We need power!
A modest garden trampoline kind of size for reference.
3.5 meter diameter and 4m tall.
3.5m d and 3m high has a cylinder volume of 28.863m³
This equals 28863 kg/f acting on a piston 0.17m diameter generates a pressure of 1808 psi.
A 3kW hydraulic motor generator requires 1500 psi at a rate of 6 GPM which equates to 22.7 liters per minute.
A 0.17 meter diameter piston with a height of 1m has a volume of 22.7 liters.
Therefore we have 60 seconds runtime.
A two tower system gives us a capacity factor of 0.997 allowing for one day per year downtime for maintenance.
This is the equivalent of a solar panel system of 12 kW with a capacity factor of 0.25.
You can also put a solar panel system on top so 12kW + 3 kW = 15 kW from a 3.5 X 7 meter footprint which is 24m².
Having fun yet? O0
Three Gorges Dam on verge of breaking, CCP not reporting
https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/three-gorges-dam-on-verge-of-breaking-ccp-not-reporting/
Has there ever been a more important time for hhop gen 4 open loop technology?
No rivers need diverting, no populations displaced, no ecosystems thousands of miles long destroyed.
No dams that will eventually break potentially killing millions.
Localised power along the entire length of the river, the river will barely notice.
Power station run off pools that feed the river with wildlife, responsibly managed.
No change to the Earth's rotational speed due to massive hoarding of water in an unnatural surface position.
I could go on... but do I need to?
Hey Rob.
Can you point me to the area where I " actually " discovered the potential of your hhop gen 4 ( open ) cycle system please? I seem to recall mentioning a " tidal " system?
Cheers Graham.
Hello mate,
Well I can't remember where we were discussing this subject. Your observation that the gen 4 system creates high pressure output from a low pressure but high mass flow water source was spot on.
I remember we discussed the Bay of Fundy in Canada:
Where is the highest tide?
https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/highesttide.html
Tidal use of the gen 4 was your idea, I favour rivers, but tidal could work by charging a massive reservoir at high tide and running the gen 4 with discharge at low tide.
List of rivers by discharge
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rivers_by_discharge
This is a list of rivers by their average discharge, that is, their water flow rate. Here, only those rivers are shown whose discharge is more than 2,000 cubic metres per second (530,000 US gal/s; 440,000 impgal/s; 2,000,000 L/s). For context, the volume of an Olympic-size swimming pool is 2,500 cubic metres. So the flow rate at the mouth of the Amazon is sufficient to fill more than 83 such pools each second.
A quick update on the progress of the 🌻
I have about 20 growing in the same pot in about 12 inches of soil.
All seem to be going to flower with some more advanced than others.
I am particularly pleased with this experiment because sunflower seeds are a microgreen top 5 contender and they may be suited to highly compact growing...
Quantity and quality of viable seed may be the ultimate test, time will tell...