I made this material nearly a year ago but abandoned the project when the conclusion by some was that it was merely a peltier device or electrostatics. https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3815.msg79116#msg79116 . After reading Brad's thread on Neutrinovoltaics I watched some of their older vids. In my builds a year ago I was using a separator between my material & the foil. I decided to paint the foil directly with the substance.
Postage stamp size voltage tops out at around 600mv. You can stack them in series and I've topped out at 3.5v. Cannot light an LED.
I'd put some material in a choke toroid holder (25mm dia) and found I did not need an electrode to get a voltage. Both probes could be touching the same material and I'd get a reading up to 350mv. For the highest reading the dmm probes were mm apart . When I measured the resistance in the same position it was 15Mohm . THe lowest resistance was when the probes were over a cm apart and measured 24kohm but no volatge could be measured in that position.
Material is plant matter soaked in FeCl3 then fired at 750c ramped up over a couple of hours. Then crushed and mixed with sodium siilcate to form the paint. I'll do a vid but what other measurements or tests would you recommend?
And when both probes are in the paint I get a reading too.
Hi Jim,
Reading your tests and findings, I think it would be useful to use say a 10 kOhm load resistor across any such cells you test and measure the loaded voltage across the resistor.
Say the stacked assembly which topped out at 3.5 V would have been able to maintain the 3 - 3.3 V across the 10 kOhm, you would have had a 0.3 - 0.33 mA load current.
But such cells usually have a rather high internal resistance as you experienced and the open voltage drops immediately when loaded hence the load current also drops to micro or nanoAmper range.
A DMM loads such cells by its 10 MegaOhm internal resistance, quasi a negligible load.
One more thing: using a 10 kOhm or similar resistors in parallel with the DMM voltmeter helps reduce any E field pick up from your local enviroment which may also able to lead you astray.
(Later remove the 10 kOhm when doing any other measurement with the DMM .) ;)
Thanks for sharing your results.
Gyula
Quote from: JimBoot on 2020.12.01, 04:46:06
I made this material nearly a year ago but abandoned the project when the conclusion by some was that it was merely a peltier device or electrostatics. https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3815.msg79116#msg79116 . After reading Brad's thread on Neutrinovoltaics I watched some of their older vids. In my builds a year ago I was using a separator between my material & the foil. I decided to paint the foil directly with the substance.
Postage stamp size voltage tops out at around 600mv. You can stack them in series and I've topped out at 3.5v. Cannot light an LED.
I'd put some material in a choke toroid holder (25mm dia) and found I did not need an electrode to get a voltage. Both probes could be touching the same material and I'd get a reading up to 350mv. For the highest reading the dmm probes were mm apart . When I measured the resistance in the same position it was 15Mohm . THe lowest resistance was when the probes were over a cm apart and measured 24kohm but no volatge could be measured in that position.
Material is plant matter soaked in FeCl3 then fired at 750c ramped up over a couple of hours. Then crushed and mixed with sodium siilcate to form the paint. I'll do a vid but what other measurements or tests would you recommend?
Try what they did Jim,and try powering a small calculator,as they require very little power to run.
I would also try shorting the cell,just in case there was any capacitance effect there. Once shorted out for a brief time,see if there is a voltage across the stack again. If you get the same 3 odd volt's,im mixing up some brew O0
Brad
Thanks guys, I suspect microamps but will test. I'll have to buy a calculator :) They are not consistent with their measurements so I'll be making a new brew from scratch. See if I can capture some Tesla cosmic rays. `
You mixed Iron Chloride with some Plant Matter then fired it at 750 degrees C
until the plant matter was carbonized?
Then added Sodium Silicate to form your paint?
Iron Chloride is acidic.
Sodium Silicate (Water Glass) is basic.
After the final mix and Double Displacement the paint would probably be a
mixture of Iron Oxide/Hydroxide, Sodium Chloride, Sodium Carbonate, Carbon and Silicon Dioxide.
Iron Chloride decomposes at approximately 500 C and one of the byproducts is FeClO.
Or some variation, depending upon the proportions.
That would serve as a reasonably good electrolyte in an electrochemical voltaic cell.
Hi Jim,
Besides using a calculator that consumes very little power, you could consider this LED flasher circuit here:
http://www.discovercircuits.com/DJ-Circuits/ac14fls.htm (http://www.discovercircuits.com/DJ-Circuits/ac14fls.htm)
It needs a 74AC14 type hex inverter. (if you click on the schematic within the link, it opens in a clear pdf file) The 74AC type circuits work up to 6.5 - 7 V maximum supply voltage, do not exceed it.
This circuit here also consumes very low power: http://www.discovercircuits.com/DJ-Circuits/10secosc.htm (http://www.discovercircuits.com/DJ-Circuits/10secosc.htm) A DMM set in AC volt may nicely indicate oscillation.
Greetings
Gyula
Quote from: TinMan on 2020.12.01, 15:32:10
Try what they did Jim,and try powering a small calculator,as they require very little power to run.
I would also try shorting the cell,just in case there was any capacitance effect there. Once shorted out for a brief time,see if there is a voltage across the stack again. If you get the same 3 odd volt's,im mixing up some brew O0
Brad
I grabbed a cell I made a year ago and it still had 800mv on it. Stuck a 10k resistor as per Gyula suggestion had a 5-10mv drop
I had some of the material sitting in h2o2 to exfoliate from a year ago. Made some cells from that without the water glass. 3 in series showed 2 - 2.5v. Found an old calculator and hooked it up. Calculator calculates. I'll upload the vid soon. Given this material is still damp I'll try it again tomorrow. Thanks Brad and gyula.
Here's the first vid https://youtu.be/9MVoA-_xF9U this is "graphene" minus water glass. They have graphite electrodes for the positive. Battery removed from calculator. Solar cell covered
Here is the old material mixed with water glass https://youtu.be/uc9fIij8SmU
Quote from: JimBoot on 2020.12.06, 06:02:27
Here is the old material mixed with water glass https://youtu.be/uc9fIij8SmU
Hi Jim.
Looks good so far,but we do need to eliminate any chance that it is a galvanic cell.
Simply make sure it is completely dry.
Then short the cell out for a good 5 minute's,and then see if it produces power again.
A neutrinovoltaic cell will work just like a solar cell,but 24 hours a day.
You may have done so already,but do you have a video on the making of the material you are using ?.
I am a little better off financially now that i have my own business,and can pump a bit of cash into this project.
I also have more free time on my hands now,so happy to put in the hard yards on this one.
But first,get the cells completely dry,and lets see what happens.
Brad
Quote from: TinMan on 2020.12.06, 11:35:52
Hi Jim.
Looks good so far,but we do need to eliminate any chance that it is a galvanic cell.
Simply make sure it is completely dry.
Then short the cell out for a good 5 minute's,and then see if it produces power again.
A neutrinovoltaic cell will work just like a solar cell,but 24 hours a day.
You may have done so already,but do you have a video on the making of the material you are using ?.
I am a little better off financially now that i have my own business,and can pump a bit of cash into this project.
I also have more free time on my hands now,so happy to put in the hard yards on this one.
But first,get the cells completely dry,and lets see what happens.
Brad
Yep totally agree on testing again when dry with the non water glass cells. I have some material that has been soaking for a year in ferric chloride. I'll be firing it soon and will do a vid. I'm using my wife's jewelry kiln for precious metal clay, so a bit fancy.
Quote from: JimBoot on 2020.12.06, 11:56:30
Yep totally agree on testing again when dry with the non water glass cells. I have some material that has been soaking for a year in ferric chloride. I'll be firing it soon and will do a vid. I'm using my wife's jewelry kiln for precious metal clay, so a bit fancy.
Sounds good Jim.
I do have some sheets of graphite here that i ordered for another project that never happened.
I also believe that there has to be a silicon layer as well :-\
From what i have found out so far via research,the graphite layer is the emitter,the silicon layer is the junction,and the copper or ali layer is the collector.
Trying to find out how the silicon layer is made--what process,atm O0
Brad
Quote from: TinMan on 2020.12.06, 12:06:34
Sounds good Jim.
I do have some sheets of graphite here that i ordered for another project that never happened.
I also believe that there has to be a silicon layer as well :-\
From what i have found out so far via research,the graphite layer is the emitter,the silicon layer is the junction,and the copper or ali layer is the collector.
Trying to find out how the silicon layer is made--what process,atm O0
Brad
Very interesting the cells that were damp yesterday are now dry. These ones did not have sodium silicate and are just using tissue paper as the junction. Still get a good voltage reading, will do the calc test again a bit later.
Ok dry cells without the sodium silicate work on the calculator. I need some button cases to eliminate bad contacts. Lots more experimenting to do .
I'm getting better voltage readings using graphite as the positive terminal rather than copper. The graphite is from a builders pencil and it's impedance is 3 times higher than copper breadboard jumper wire. Made several different cell types tonight. I need 2.5 volts from these cells for the calculator to function as opposed to a single AA. This means at least 3 cells in series atm. Size of them does not seem to matter as far as I can tell.
Quote from: JimBoot on 2020.12.07, 03:21:09
Ok dry cells without the sodium silicate work on the calculator. I need some button cases to eliminate bad contacts. Lots more experimenting to do .
Ok,so you now have dry cells driving the calculator.
Did you short them for 5 minutes ,and try again Jim ?
Brad
Quote from: JimBoot on 2020.12.07, 11:38:25
I'm getting better voltage readings using graphite as the positive terminal rather than copper. The graphite is from a builders pencil and it's impedance is 3 times higher than copper breadboard jumper wire. Made several different cell types tonight. I need 2.5 volts from these cells for the calculator to function as opposed to a single AA. This means at least 3 cells in series atm. Size of them does not seem to matter as far as I can tell.
As the size increases,the available current should also increase,but voltage should remain much the same.
Brad
Quote from: TinMan on 2020.12.08, 10:19:25
As the size increases,the available current should also increase,but voltage should remain much the same.
Brad
Ok I have not tested current vs size. Thanks. Interesting in their latest video they have sandwiched their material between two strips of foil. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OCCOWQvG30
In the category of more things I don't understand. Still trying to eliminate a galvanic or other chemical reaction as the source of current.
When the cells are damp the voltage does not change but current does significantly. So I eliminated the foil, soaked a paper towel and sprinkled the material on top. Placed a piece of graphite on top of that as my positive terminal. When I place the neg probe on the paper not in contact with the material I get 10X the current of a dry cell. So no metal except for the neg probe in the water 10mm away from the material. When I place the neg probe on the Al current goes up 100X compared to a dry cell. Only as high as 1-200ua in this setup. I cannot see any degradation on the Al and there should be I would have thought if this was a galvanic reaction. I have more material which has been soaking for about a year in Fecl3 which I will fire soon. The water is "natural spring water" out of a bottle.
Quote from: TinMan on 2020.12.08, 10:17:30
Ok,so you now have dry cells driving the calculator.
Did you short them for 5 minutes ,and try again Jim ?
Brad
Sorry missed this, I have done that in the past so did not try again. I'm testing different cell configs, as the ones I've made so far are bloody fiddly and hard to work with.
Quote from: JimBoot on 2020.12.09, 03:26:09
In the category of more things I don't understand. Still trying to eliminate a galvanic or other chemical reaction as the source of current.
When the cells are damp the voltage does not change but current does significantly. So I eliminated the foil, soaked a paper towel and sprinkled the material on top. Placed a piece of graphite on top of that as my positive terminal. When I place the neg probe on the paper not in contact with the material I get 10X the current of a dry cell. So no metal except for the neg probe in the water 10mm away from the material. When I place the neg probe on the Al current goes up 100X compared to a dry cell. Only as high as 1-200ua in this setup. I cannot see any degradation on the Al and there should be I would have thought if this was a galvanic reaction. I have more material which has been soaking for about a year in Fecl3 which I will fire soon. The water is "natural spring water" out of a bottle.
Hi Jim
You need to eliminate all moisture in the cell.
No wet paper towel,no moist mixture--all very dry.
Brad
Quote from: TinMan on 2020.12.10, 08:16:37
Hi Jim
You need to eliminate all moisture in the cell.
No wet paper towel,no moist mixture--all very dry.
Brad
The dry ones still have voltage but only a few micro amps. After shorting out for 5 minutes returns the same readings . But I'm thinking more peltier effect than galvanic now. The readings are too inconsistent and now they won't start the calculator. I'll still fire the material I have.
ugh got the calculator going on completely dry cells. When you start calculating though it seems to drain the cells but then it "recharges" (for the want of a better word) itself. I'll work on it tonight while I'm printing parts for another project. The stack of cells pictured have an unloaded voltage of around 3v. When the calc is switched on it drops to about half and then drops lower with every button press. These cells are homemade paper made with the intercalated (not exfoliated material) graphite, then I have used a paper separator soaked in sodium silicate to sit between the graphite paper and Al foil. I used the Na₂SiO₃ as in the separator as RMS just demonstrated using it as an electrolyte to rejuvenate SLA batteries. EDIT: Just did another test and it seems the more digits displayed on the LCD will drain the cell but it calculates 3- 4 digit results easily.
So I put my meters current probe on these new cells. It showed 2 - 5 micro amps. Then I put it on ones I made over a year ago which had a lot more of the carbon material and they measured between 100 - 200 micro amps. Calculator does not drain them. Ran for 25 minutes, no discernible change in voltage during the run. A few tests here. What's the lowest power rated dc motor? Like to see if I can run these flat using inductive load.
https://youtu.be/FZoGDT6GIts
Checked cells this morning. The resting voltage of them in series is continually fluctuating from 1.677 to 1.690 . I may stick them in the fridge later to test thermal variation. Need to find a 3v motor amongst my junk too.
Quote from: JimBoot on 2021.01.04, 11:39:25
So I put my meters current probe on these new cells. It showed 2 - 5 micro amps. Then I put it on ones I made over a year ago which had a lot more of the carbon material and they measured between 100 - 200 micro amps. Calculator does not drain them. Ran for 25 minutes, no discernible change in voltage during the run. A few tests here. What's the lowest power rated dc motor? Like to see if I can run these flat using inductive load.
https://youtu.be/FZoGDT6GIts
Hi JimBoot,
On your question at video time around 11:24, my answer is that the DMM ampermeter does shorts out the calculator, so there is no any cell voltage (the 1.495 - 1.5V) left to run the calculator.
IF you have a 2nd DMM, switch it into the some kOhm resistance range and then you can check with it the internal resistance of your 1st DMM set to the same microamper measuring range: that resistance value you will see is what 'shorted out' your calculator and took away the current from it.
Re your question on lowest power rated motor: if you mean off the shelf types, there is little or no choice because the current loadable from the cell is in the some hundred uA range. The smallest current draw motor I found on ebay is this https://www.ebay.com/itm/262550362464 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/262550362464) and it needs 10 mA run from 1.5V when the shaft is unloaded.
Lasersaber showed the EZ-Spin motor with coils in series connection, having at least 15 kOhm DC resistance or higher and it has current consumption in the some 10 to some hundred uA range.
One of his latests with crystal cell feeding is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nCuGtEDI5g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nCuGtEDI5g) His so far ultimate motor is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNcgnooayDc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNcgnooayDc)
Gyula
Thanks Gyula, I was thinking of throwing an ossie motor together. I've run it before on 1-2ma so I'll give that a go and stop hunting :)
Similar Devices have quite a History. It is quite easy to build devices which output
a small voltage and current seemingly from "nowhere.:"
The Voltaic Pile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltaic_pile)
The Zamboni Pile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamboni_pile)
Batteries - Wet and Dry/Voltaic Pile (https://instructional-resources.physics.uiowa.edu/demos/5e4003-batteries-wet-and-dryvoltaic-pile)
The DuLuc Dry Pile High-voltage source (http://amasci.com/emotor/duluc.html)
The Clarendon Dry Pile (http://www.physics.ox.ac.uk/history.asp?page=exhibit1)
Is there a similarity?
Quote from: muDped on 2021.01.05, 23:39:42
Similar Devices have quite a History. It is quite easy to build devices which output
a small voltage and current seemingly from "nowhere.:"
The Voltaic Pile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltaic_pile)
The Zamboni Pile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamboni_pile)
Batteries - Wet and Dry/Voltaic Pile (https://instructional-resources.physics.uiowa.edu/demos/5e4003-batteries-wet-and-dryvoltaic-pile)
The DuLuc Dry Pile High-voltage source (http://amasci.com/emotor/duluc.html)
The Clarendon Dry Pile (http://www.physics.ox.ac.uk/history.asp?page=exhibit1)
Is there a similarity?
I'm familiar with some of those. Not that I can detect. I will be making more material and will try excluding the fecl3 as that is the only potential reaction that I can think of.
Some newer cells showing promise. Up to 1ma and 1v. Running a calculator is easy now. I'm pretty much out of the old material now. Hopefully I'll get some kiln time soon.
I had some exfoliated material left. These do not have sodium silicate but are still slightly magnetic. I'm currently making them like this. Spread the material out, then roll it up with a graphite electrode in the centre, then wrap in foil.
New material being fired now. Pictured is treated and untreated material before firing . I'm ramping up at 700f/h to 1382f. Then it's set to bake for 2hours. Cooking an untreated sample too.
Also seeing a piezoelectric like effect where current rises and voltage will drop as pressure is applied. Not sure if it's just because I'm making better contact or piezoelectric
Here is the paper I think rms was referring to re sodium silicate being used with lead acid batteries. https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/e1/f8/c5/42cf28a5bc2254/US20040175623A1.pdf Now he's building a magnetiser.
This new material is much more sparkly and explodes while cooling down from 180f . A lot more iron in this batch. Resistance is 15ohms over 1"
The way you're creating your Carbon is quite fascinating JimBoot.
Do you have any sort of hypothesis as to what the role or the function of the
Carbon and the Iron might be in producing the ElectroMotive Force?
Is your resistance measurement of 15 Ohms the Carbon just as it comes
from the oven while still in one piece?
I wonder what the resistance might be if the Carbon was powdered and pressed
into a rod or plate?
Quote from: muDped on 2021.01.10, 22:53:28
The way you're creating your Carbon is quite fascinating JimBoot.
Do you have any sort of hypothesis as to what the role or the function of the
Carbon and the Iron might be in producing the ElectroMotive Force?
Is your resistance measurement of 15 Ohms the Carbon just as it comes
from the oven while still in one piece?
I wonder what the resistance might be if the Carbon was powdered and pressed
into a rod or plate?
As they are cooled slowly over 5 hours I suspect a crystal structure being formed by the iron hence my reference to Piezoelectrics. They reflect light like diamonds. I have other guesses but not theories. I'm fascinated by neutrinovoltaics so heading in that direction atm. The resistance measurement is from the material after firing before crushing. edit: Just measured the resistance over 1" for the fecl3 free carbon that was in the same bake. 9.9ohms mmm.
Grabbed a splinter of the new material and dipped it in the waterglass wrapped it with paper separator while wet then added the foil. Measured 5-600 mv. A few hours later it has dried and is measuring 1.2v
Took my third batch out let it cool for 6 hours and it seemed a little more crystaline. Both batches had shades of blue so I'm suspecting Cu contamination in the carbon I had surrounding it. Not sure where from though. There was a mix of glittering crystals some blue material stuck to the samples they were the same size as the activated coconut carbon I had surrounding them. These were magnetic though, the blue ones too. The photos didn't capture the detail. I put them on their own paper with NaSiO2 A day later they are showing over a volt and over 2ma on my dmm. Runs the calculator by itself. Then I stuck a magnet where the surrounding material was in the kiln tin and got a bunch more material. I put it on the paper the same way then tested the temp at various stages. It was always .3- .5 degrees c coolerthan ambient. I was thinking a chemical reaction but now I'm not sure what. This cell is showing similar performance and can run the calculator solo. We'll see what it's like tomorrow. To confuse things the intercalated carbon works still as well. I would have thought a higher temp if there was a chemical reaction. I'll add pix later.
EDIT: I'm going to soak new material and do it again with fresh receptacle . This is probably just a battery, chances are parts of the low grade stainless steel are getting into the samples . That's my guess until I try a new tin. Still would have thought it would have a higher temp tho.