Hey all, dropping by to show off my latest creation. This is essentially an axial version of the Adams Generator.
Results so far... 9V in / 18V out (bottom EM coil), no heat, no current draw. Top coil is putting out a lazy 27-36V...
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.14, 03:31:26
...no current draw. Top coil is putting out a lazy 27-36V...
How do you measure the current ?
Quote from: verpies on 2023.11.14, 10:03:06
How do you measure the current ?
Ah, this is just one component, meet the rest of the family. The two little terrors at the front are going to feed each other, now that I can induce and use emf from the EM coils. These will be set to run at 18V between each other, and generate somewhere between 60-90V from the coils above the rotor.
Those volts will be fed into either side of the little monster in the middle for the purpose of extracting huge amounts of emf.
I've built it in three pieces as I haven't been able to get my head around building it as a single unit.
You did not answer the question.
Quote from: verpies on 2023.11.14, 14:38:07
You did not answer the question.
The power supply has a amp meter.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.14, 20:49:05
The power supply has a amp meter.
What is the current resolution of this meter and how does it respond to high-crest-factor current pulses ?
Quote from: verpies on 2023.11.14, 20:52:55
What is the current resolution of this meter and how does it respond to high-crest-factor current pulses ?
The PS I'm using is a cheap one with 10mA steps. I can draw current by simply moving the hall sensor back a few mm to give the coil a longer window to fill. I don't have understanding of high-crest-factor current pulses as I am largely self taught.
The reason you don't see current drawn, is because mechanically/magnetically I have rotor magnets almost overlapping the coil cores which makes the magnetic resistance all but disappear. Coupled with a back EMF pulse at the point of magnetic equilibrium, and you have a relatively free moving rotor.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.14, 22:33:23
The PS I'm using is a cheap one with 10mA steps. I can draw current by simply moving the hall sensor back a few mm to give the coil a longer window to fill. I don't have understanding of high-crest-factor current pulses as I am largely self taught.
The reason you don't see current drawn, is because mechanically/magnetically I have rotor magnets almost overlapping the coil cores which makes the magnetic resistance all but disappear. Coupled with a back EMF pulse at the point of magnetic equilibrium, and you have a relatively free moving rotor.
I am afraid that nobody have instruments to measure free energy ;D :D
If you can't fill a bucket with such thing and show it, you can't claim anything :)
Quote from: Classic on 2023.11.15, 13:32:36
I am afraid that nobody have instruments to measure free energy
Yes, we do.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.14, 22:33:23
The PS I'm using is a cheap one with 10mA steps.
So you are blind to currents less than 10mA and v/i timings.
Do you have an oscilloscope ?
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.14, 22:33:23
I don't have understanding of high-crest-factor current pulses as I am largely self taught.
Most of the members here are "Self-taught" and understand the concept of the crest-factor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crest_factor).
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.14, 22:33:23
The reason you don't see current drawn, is because mechanically/magnetically I have rotor magnets almost overlapping the coil cores which makes the magnetic resistance all but disappear.
No, the reason is the lack of appropriate measuring devices for measuring small pulsed currents.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.14, 22:33:23
Coupled with a back EMF pulse at the point of magnetic equilibrium, and you have a relatively free moving rotor.
The current flowing through a coil does not reverse direction during the "back EMF pulse".
What is equal "at the point of magnetic equilibrium" ?
What is the inductance and resistance of your coils ?
Where does your coil pulsing regime put you on this graph (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3723.msg72540#msg72540) ?
Are your threaded rods ferromagnetic ?
Are you aware that even non-ferromagnetic conductive objects subjected to varying magnetic fields, will have eddy-currents induced in them, which cause mechanical braking and losses ?
Are you able to plot the torque vs angle of your rotor as shown in this video (https://youtu.be/QwbP4b4tlFU?t=358) ?
If my sentence does not end with a question mark then you need not reply to it ...but you may comment it optionally if you wish.
Quote from: verpies on 2023.11.16, 04:25:13
So you are blind to currents less than 10mA and v/i timings.
Do you have an oscilloscope ?
Yes. No.
Most of the members here are "Self-taught" and understand the concept of the crest-factor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crest_factor).
Thanks for the link, I'm clearly a very small fish here.
No, the reason is the lack of appropriate measuring devices for measuring small pulsed currents.
The current flowing through a coil does not reverse direction during the "back EMF pulse".
What is equal "at the point of magnetic equilibrium" ?
The attraction between the top and bottom coil cores. Which is the same point where the hall sensor activates the em coil to attract, turning off directly above the core. This is the technique Robert Adams used
What is the inductance and resistance of your coils ?
42m x 0.022 (3 x 14m x 1mm dia wound on 20mm threaded sleeve over a 12mm thread)
Haven't looked at inductance calcs.
Where does your coil pulsing regime put you on this graph (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3723.msg72540#msg72540) ?
More calculations to do.
Are your threaded rods ferromagnetic ?
Yes
Are you aware that even non-ferromagnetic conductive objects subjected to varying magnetic fields, will have eddy-currents induced in them, which cause mechanical braking and losses ?
Yes, but considering I can spin the rotor easily with a couple of fingers and watch the perspex flex under about 30kg of force on each side, outside resistance is largely insignificant. The bearing in the rotor cops a flogging however.
Are you able to plot the torque vs angle of your rotor as shown in this video (https://youtu.be/QwbP4b4tlFU?t=358) ?
More calculations to do.
If my sentence does not end with a question mark then you need not reply to it ...but you may comment it optionally if you wish.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.16, 09:51:46
Quote from: verpies on 2023.11.16, 04:25:13
Do you have an oscilloscope ?
No
If you are in the market for one, then I recommend this one (https://youtu.be/S8jrpCoZyx8) for starters. It is under $400.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.14, 03:31:26
Hey all, dropping by to show off my latest creation. This is essentially an axial version of the Adams Generator.
Results so far... 9V in / 18V out (bottom EM coil), no heat, no current draw. Top coil is putting out a lazy 27-36V...
How much do you estimate the total cost for your setup and how long it take to build ?
Do you get same results from power source with battery usage ?
Also, one of my previous comments that someone keep deleting it. And as I said in one of the previous comments that someone deleted them, you dont need fancy instruments to build an OU device, but if you claim you may end up spending more than you already spent to build just to buy many unnecessary things.
Quote from: Classic on 2023.11.16, 13:31:01
Also, one of my previous comments that someone keep deleting it. And as I said in one of the previous comments that someone deleted them,
The moderator has deleted them. If I were you, I would not rock the boat and consider why your comments keep getting deleted.
Quote from: Classic on 2023.11.16, 13:31:01
...you dont need fancy instruments to build an OU device,
...but you need basic instruments to document their performance and discover their inner workings.
The scope I had recomended to unimmortal is not "fancy". It is one of the cheapest new scopes you can get nowadays and it has best performance per dollar.
Quote from: Classic on 2023.11.16, 13:31:01
but if you claim you may end up spending more than you already spent to build just to buy many unnecessary things.
With this statement you just discouraged this member from making concrete measurements and fear-mongering him with costs, that you have implied as "unnecessary".
Such statements have nothing to do with research and technical discovery, which this forum is all about, so I will not be surprised if the moderator deletes your post again or worse.
A quick progress shot of wiring up the family. The board in the middle is the circuitry for two 5V (+2V overhead) regulators to support the UGN3503 hall sensors, with the remaining voltage being switched to the EM coils.Copper wire is on the bench for the 2nd set of generator coils (coiling is a love hate relationship), and I'm about to learn how to use tinkered to 3d print a second rotor... busy times.
That was a lot of work!
Did you notice that there is no low-reluctance path for the return flux from these coils ?
Quote from: verpies on 2023.11.18, 02:42:56
That was a lot of work!
Did you notice that there is no low-reluctance path for the return flux from these coils ?
I'm loving your questions, but equally frustrated with how much I need to learn to understand them.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.18, 07:27:17
I'm loving your questions, but equally frustrated with how much I need to learn to understand them.
Reluctance in a magnetic circuit is analogous to resistance in an electric circuit.
Magnetic flux in a magnetic circuit is analogous to current in an electric circuit.
Return flux is the flux which loops back and completes the magnetic circuit.
Magnetic flux always forms complete loops, so it must return. There is no way to get around that.
Does this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_circuit) help ?
Quote from: verpies on 2023.11.18, 08:44:56
Reluctance in a magnetic circuit is analogous to resistance in an electric circuit.
Magnetic flux in a magnetic circuit is analogous to current in an electric circuit.
Return flux is the flux which loops back and completes the magnetic circuit.
Magnetic flux always forms complete loops, so it must return. There is no way to get around that.
Does this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_circuit) help ?
Yes! That makes a little more sense. I have spent inordinate amounts of time playing with magnets and rotors, and visualising optimal magnetic flows. This is part of where I had the idea to have the magnetic field constantly oscillating between top and bottom coil cores to reduce any form of resistance.
At the moment I'm only pulsing the lower coils, should I start switching the generator coils, magnetic reluctance should theoretically reduce to zero.
Here are the rather simple schematics for the switch and rectifier that I'm using. While the rectifier may look a little confusing, putting it around the coil allows for greater EMF recovery. This latest design with multiple diodes saw a 3V increase (up from 16V with single diodes) from 8 LEDS (16V) drawing out the EMF. The most interesting thing I've found, is that without a load, there is no voltage on the rectifier output.
Hey mate hope to catch up soon. Loved chatting with you. Hope to start working on this in a couple of weeks.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.22, 03:59:37
Here are the rather simple schematics for the switch and rectifier that I'm using.
Read this thread (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3221.msg53768#msg53768) where we tried to do a similar recovery of energy stored in a motor winding.
This thread (https://overunity.com/16167/sharing-ideas-on-how-to-make-a-more-efficent-motor-using-flyback-moderated/msg469283/#msg469283) is also relevant but you need to be logged-in to see the diagrams and attachments.
P.S.
Someone needs to talk to Stefan about the visibility of attachments to Guests visiting his new "Archive". It's not like they can create a new account there...
Quote from: verpies on 2023.11.22, 10:34:55
Read this thread (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3221.msg53768#msg53768) where we tried to do a similar recovery of energy stored in a motor winding.
This thread (https://overunity.com/16167/sharing-ideas-on-how-to-make-a-more-efficent-motor-using-flyback-moderated/msg469283/#msg469283) is also relevant but you need to be logged-in to see the diagrams and attachments.
..
Thanks. I need to create an account on OU.
Out of interest, what sort of results were you getting?
Using the rectifier I posted earlier, an open circuit after the rectifier is now showing up as 74V DC with a 63V capacitor in place for filtering. Remove the capacitor and the charge is barely 5V. The capacitor appears to be the broker between the load (LEDs) and the coil. But that doesn't explain why I see a much higher voltage with no load. Either way I've decided to put 9V regulators in place for the power side to stop any looping and provide a cleaner voltage to the coils.
Verpies
Quote
P.S.
Someone needs to talk to Stefan about the visibility of attachments to Guests visiting his new "Archive". It's not like they can create a new account there...
End quote
I had not realized this is an issue ?
Will mention ( ask)
Also trying to get Stefan comfortable with allowing genuine or active builds to be updated from
Time to time !( the moderated builders boards that were there)
Or genuine breakthroughs to be showcased.
I see he did this already ( once) with Martin Fleischmann THOR reactor.
And there are new things I am aware of ..Hakasays is working with a group on earth Transmission, also a global earthquake detection "syndicate ", sites around the globe connected with very specific open source technology !
As it develops it should be "pinned" at certain venues!
Etc etc
Quote from: Chet K on 2023.11.22, 13:36:17
Verpies
Quote
P.S.
Someone needs to talk to Stefan about the visibility of attachments to Guests visiting his new "Archive". It's not like they can create a new account there...
End quote
Yes, you need to login with a public access
Username
free-energy
and public password:
overunity
to see also all the attachments,
as it is stated on the startpage.
(Frontpage news)
Hope this helps.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.22, 13:07:22
Thanks. I need to create an account on OU.
Good luck with that.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.22, 13:07:22
Out of interest, what sort of results were you getting?
It's all there. Read the entire thread 8)
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.22, 13:07:22
Using the rectifier I posted earlier,
Diodes block/rectify current - not voltage.
Inductors store current.
Capacitors store voltage.
Quote from: verpies on 2023.11.22, 14:32:26
It's all there. Read the entire thread 8)
Hey Verpies, it might be more constructive to give me a quick high level of Vin/Vout of what you achieved, before I come back and tell you the thread is missing or my access is blocked.
Quote from: verpies on 2023.11.22, 14:32:26
Diodes block/rectify current - not voltage.
Inductors store current.
Capacitors store voltage.
This isn't strictly the case with negative energy, otherwise adding more diodes wouldn't have shown more voltage.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.22, 21:41:56
Hey Verpies, it might be more constructive to give me a quick high level of Vin/Vout of what you achieved, before I come back and tell you the thread is missing or my access is blocked.
Are you asking me to do your homework?
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.22, 21:41:56
This isn't strictly the case with negative energy, otherwise adding more diodes wouldn't have shown more voltage.
Most diodes exhibit a voltage drop (V
F) when current flows through them in the forward direction, so adding more diodes in series will increase their total voltage drop.
Also, diodes exhibit capacitance in the reverse direction (C
R), so adding more diodes in parallel increases their total reverse capacitance.
BTW: What is negative energy? "Negative" with respect to what other energy level ? You cannot have a "negative" of anything without defining the zero level first. When you do that, then anything less than this zero can be considered "negative".
Last but not least, how did energy get into the discussion of diodes' behavior? Diodes are oblivious to energy. They react to the direction of current which attempts to flow through them and they have a reverse voltage rating which determines how much reverse voltage they can withstand before breaking down and allowing a large current to flow (in reverse).
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.22, 21:41:56
This isn't strictly the case with negative energy
What is negative energy?
What is it that you can add to 3kWh that gives you 1kWh ?
Quote from: Paul-R on 2023.11.22, 23:27:30
What is negative energy?
What is it that you can add to 3kWh that gives you 1kWh ?
Haha, yeah it's not real intuitive, but here is the jist of it as I've come to understand it with my non-technical mind. When a circuit is formed a flow of energy is created, what we don't see is the etheric circuit that forms in a higher density that we can't (yet) interact with. When the flow of energy is abrubtly cut (as we do with nanosecond switching MOSFETs), a magnetic reversal occurs that we see generally as EMF. The properties of EMF are the negative aspect of a flow of energy that has had it's positive aspect removed. Kinda like a two way mirror that we're starting to realise has two sides...
When the magnetic reversal occurs, what is it attracted to? a positive potential, unlike our classic electricity that is looking for a negative potential (or ground/earth) in order to reach a natural equilibrium. And what happens when a bunch of 'EMF energy' is sitting at the negative end of a coil as a result of having the positive cut, and sees the switch re-open with positive energy? It is attracted to it, causing resistance to the positive energy that has been released into the coil looking for ground.
Yes it's simplistic, yes the terminology needs work, but one look at an oscilloscope that has thousands of volts seemingly appear from nowhere when a circuit is cut, you have to wonder where did it actually come from.
Quote from: verpies on 2023.11.22, 22:19:34
Most diodes exhibit a voltage drop (VF) when current flows through them in the forward direction, so adding more diodes in series will increase their total voltage drop.
Also, diodes exhibit capacitance in the reverse direction (CR), so adding more diodes in parallel increases their total reverse capacitance.
BTW: What is negative energy? "Negative" with respect to what other energy level ? You cannot have a "negative" of anything without defining the zero level first. When you do that, then anything less than this zero can be considered "negative".
Last but not least, how did energy get into the discussion of diodes' behavior? Diodes are oblivious to energy. They react to the direction of current which attempts to flow through them and they have a reverse voltage rating which determines how much reverse voltage they can withstand before breaking down and allowing a large current to flow (in reverse).
As per my explanation in my last post, because I so far understand that 'EMF' is attracted to a positive potential, I am attempting to present something to it, to induce the emf/voltage away from the coils, and multiple paths through parallel 1000V diodes in an unorthodox recitifier appears to be working. Only a couple of weeks ago from a 9V input, I was seeing 11.5V with just a button type IC recitifer, and I thought it was xmas. Now I'm seeing 74V and wondering how much more can can there be, and how do I extract it.
Anyway, I've got more than enough usable voltage to power my other little terror - shortly, I hope for them to be both reciprocating.
Getting a higher voltage from lower supply voltage and an inductor is nothing unusual.
This is usually done like this:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Boost_converter_anim.gif)
This example shows 3x voltage boost. However even 100x boost is possible with this method.
What would be unusual if you obtained a higher product of voltage and current at the output than at the input.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.23, 00:36:45
..., because I so far understand that 'EMF' is attracted to a positive potential,
That's news to me. EMF is like a voltage. How can "voltage" be attracted? Can you explain?
I feel like I've come to a cross-road with this project, and I'm not quite sure of my next step...
I built a switch and fired up my little monster over the weekend. I've got the voltage divider bias set at 1:1 for the gate of the P-channel (IRF9540) power switching transistor, which has an upper Vgs limit of +20V. So the ouput of either of the little terrors' generator coils can drive this at around 36V safely.
The EM coils aren't offset like the little terrors, and have been wound in series with opposite winding for each side of the rotor - all attract, all repel at the same time. Each coil 80 is metres @ 1.7 ohm, becoming ~800 turns over 12mm bolts with threaded ends. The magnets in the rotor are the same as the little terrors, where I've used a stack of 40mm x 20mm N42 magnets (20x8mm and 20x4mm) that clip to each other via a 1mm shelf in the middle of each magnet hole in the rotor. With all of that magnetic attraction, you can only start it with two firm hands.
As shown in the photo, and just like the little terrors, with a 36V input I'm still drawing no current and the transistor is staying at room temperature.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.26, 02:38:43
I feel like I've come to a cross-road with this project, and I'm not quite sure of my next step...
I built a switch and fired up my little monster over the weekend. I've got the voltage divider bias set at 1:1 for the gate of the P-channel (IRF9540) power switching transistor, which has an upper Vgs limit of +20V. So the ouput of either of the little terrors' generator coils can drive this at around 36V safely.
The EM coils aren't offset like the little terrors, and have been wound in series with opposite winding for each side of the rotor - all attract, all repel at the same time. Each coil 80 is metres @ 1.7 ohm, becoming ~800 turns over 12mm bolts with threaded ends. The magnets in the rotor are the same as the little terrors, where I've used a stack of 40mm x 20mm N42 magnets (20x8mm and 20x4mm) that clip to each other via a 1mm shelf in the middle of each magnet hole in the rotor. With all of that magnetic attraction, you can only start it with two firm hands.
As shown in the photo, and just like the little terrors, with a 36V input I'm still drawing no current and the transistor is staying at room temperature.
Love to see a video when you get a chance. I've set up a Robert Adams GPT so if you have a circuit diagram I can upload and ask questions.
Quote from: JimBoot on 2023.11.26, 04:16:23
Love to see a video when you get a chance. I've set up a Robert Adams GPT so if you have a circuit diagram I can upload and ask questions.
Haha... when all is said and done, the video is pretty uneventful (yet to post any up on youtube, but I will). Lift it up while running and it's whisper quiet. Probably more interesting in person ;)
I guess I'm more testing out the axial platform and my build technique more than anything.at the moment. The reduced magnetic reluctance using offset coils cores is most definitely a doorway to more potential.
Edit: Start-up vid: https://youtube.com/shorts/g8L9jV9hWHk?feature=shared
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.26, 04:33:36
Haha... when all is said and done, the video is pretty uneventful (yet to post any up on youtube, but I will). Lift it up while running and it's whisper quiet. Probably more interesting in person ;)
I guess I'm more testing out the axial platform and my build technique more than anything.at the moment. The reduced magnetic reluctance using offset coils cores is most definitely a doorway to more potential.
Edit: Start-up vid: https://youtube.com/shorts/g8L9jV9hWHk?feature=shared
I'm curious. Why does the power supply current display read 2.30 amps after you switch it off?
Regards,
Pm
Quote from: partzman on 2023.11.26, 14:24:05
I'm curious. Why does the power supply current display read 2.30 amps after you switch it off?
Ah, that's the adjustable current limit. It let's you know what your current limit is set at before you fry things :)
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.26, 02:38:43
...
As shown in the photo, and just like the little terrors, with a 36V input I'm still drawing no current and the transistor is staying at room temperature.
Hi,
Do you have either a digital or an analog multimeter? I would suggest to use such meter as an Ampermeter connected in series with one of the DC outputs of your power supply.
This way there would be one more checking possibility to indicate the zero current draw, with the multimeter set to either DC or AC amper position (please check both, using not only the Amper but the mA settings ).
I would like to ask this too: how do you utilize the AC output of the generator coils? Do you rectify the AC and filter it with an electrolytic capacitor?
And do you connect this output back to the DC input of the motor where the 36 VDC is coming from your power supply?
I know you showed a rectifier drawing in your Reply #19 but as you wrote in Reply #32 you made certain changes in the circuit, this is why I ask. The best would be if you could draw an actual circuit schematic on the setup you kindly showed in the video. This way we could all comment and help in a much better way to understand the behaviour of your present setup. Please do not make changes on it.
Gyula
Quote from: gyula on 2023.11.27, 14:30:46
Do you have either a digital or an analog multimeter?
I have just ordered an Astra AI 6000 :) I bought my existing meter 25 years ago :-\
Quote from: gyula on 2023.11.27, 14:30:46
I would like to ask this too: how do you utilize the AC output of the generator coils? Do you rectify the AC and filter it with an electrolytic capacitor?
And do you connect this output back to the DC input of the motor where the 36 VDC is coming from your power supply?
I know you showed a rectifier drawing in your Reply #19 but as you wrote in Reply #32 you made certain changes in the circuit, this is why I ask. The best would be if you could draw an actual circuit schematic on the setup you kindly showed in the video. This way we could all comment and help in a much better way to understand the behaviour of your present setup. Please do not make changes on it.
My intention is to use the AC output from the generator coils on the LT's, recitify and filter, to drive the LM. The LM is going to be the main power output of the system. The LT's are going to power each other via the output from the em coils.
I'm in a bit of a quandry at the moment. With 9V into the EM coils, my little terrors (LT's) are putting out too much voltage from the generator coils (>37V) which is the threshold for the 5V & 9V regulators, to feed back into the EM coils on the second LT. I haven't been able to test driving the second LT from the first LT via the EM coil output as I'm still waiting for a second rotor to be printed. And, after some testing this morning, the regulator capacitors are sized too small to keep up with the EM coils. This is where I also need to get a scope.
The change in switching circuit for the little monster (LM) was ony to satisfy the additional voltage (36V) at the gate of the PFET - as this exercise was to test the switch with an estimated output voltage from the LT gen coils, and validate the build. The output recitifier of the LM is still a work in progress as this is where I intend to harvest all of the energy from all of the coils, and as I'm still learning, improvements will be made :)
I understand it's a little confusing with so many points of input/output, but as mentioned in an earlier post, this is the only way I could initially build it to test out all of the elements before consolidating into a simple single unit.
One thing to bear in mind with linear voltage regulators (LM78xx) is that even though they support max ~36V, anything over their rated output voltage +2V is going to cause them to heat up significantly. Ideally you will want to try to maintain the input voltage as close to rated output +2V as you can.
Quote from: lfarrand on 2023.11.28, 04:42:14
One thing to bear in mind with linear voltage regulators (LM78xx) is that even though they support max ~36V, anything over their rated output voltage +2V is going to cause them to heat up significantly. Ideally you will want to try to maintain the input voltage as close to rated output +2V as you can.
Yeah, I was being a little impatient waiting for a rotor and thought I'd try to make the LT eat itself... so this use case is invalid.
With the 18V I am seeing out from the EM coils, the plan is to split that between the 5V & 9V regulators (+2V each for overhead). So if my sums are right I'll break even and stay cool.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.11.27, 23:14:59
...
I'm in a bit of a quandry at the moment. With 9V into the EM coils, my little terrors (LT's) are putting out too much voltage from the generator coils (>37V) which is the threshold for the 5V & 9V regulators, to feed back into the EM coils on the second LT. I haven't been able to test driving the second LT from the first LT via the EM coil output as I'm still waiting for a second rotor to be printed. And, after some testing this morning, the regulator capacitors are sized too small to keep up with the EM coils. This is where I also need to get a scope.
...
Hi,
Well, to reduce the induced voltage from the >37V range, the best would be to remove a certain number of turns from the coils involved or just make a tap around half way of the full turns. This way you could remain in a safe operation area of the linear voltage regulators.
Would you tell what does the 36V input voltage feed in your circuit you show in the video? Just curious... 8)
Gyula
Quote from: gyula on 2023.11.28, 11:55:49
Hi,
Well, to reduce the induced voltage from the >37V range, the best would be to remove a certain number of turns from the coils involved or just make a tap around half way of the full turns. This way you could remain in a safe operation area of the linear voltage regulators.
Would you tell what does the 36V input voltage feed in your circuit you show in the video? Just curious... 8)
Gyula
Ah yes, thanks for the reminder. I'll put the switch schematic up tomorrow. It is a simple N channel FET triggered by a hall sensor to drop a voltage divider to ground, in turn triggering a P channel FET to power the coil from a PS.
If the output is high frequency you could use ferrite transformer to step down current
A forward message from TK ( aka TinselKoala )
Quote"
TK says
You can't get OU using p-ch mosfets as your switching element of magnetic field collapse
Use NOS 2n3055 instead and not all of them will work
Must be genuine, beware of forgeries
End quote
Additional information
TK
Quote
TK says
It doesn't matter how many or how few turns you have
The collapse of the mag field will cause voltage to rise until output resistance is overcome
One way or another
Whether simply driving LEDs or causing insulation breakdown or even radiating EM field
Voltage can rise nearly without limit even from small field collapse in certain situations
End quote
Respectfully
Submitted
Quote from: Chet K on 2023.11.29, 20:16:21
A forward message from TK ( aka TinselKoala )
Quote"
TK says
You can't get OU using p-ch mosfets as your switching element of magnetic field collapse
Use NOS 2n3055 instead and not all of them will work
Must be genuine, beware of forgeries
End quote
Additional information
TK
Quote
TK says
It doesn't matter how many or how few turns you have
The collapse of the mag field will cause voltage to rise until output resistance is overcome
One way or another
Whether simply driving LEDs or causing insulation breakdown or even radiating EM field
Voltage can rise nearly without limit even from small field collapse in certain situations
End quote
Respectfully
Submitted
TK, are you using the 2n3055 for high or low side switching (power or earth). My experience has been that I can do more with the PMOS than I can with the NMOS. I haven't worked out NMOS high side switching however which I know to be faster.
Passing along a comment from TinselKoala
Quote
TK says
The turn-off transition is more important and effective than the turn-on transition
End quote
And here another
Quote
TK says
The Lathe is the King of tools
And
The oscilloscope is the King of test equipment
See TK's Scoposcopy playlists
End quote
Respectfully submitted
And for perspective
The scopeoscopy play list is a big piece of a lifetime's experience chasing the beast ( how tricky it can be)
TK still hunts this elusive beast ( as does every "open source FE researcher
Silly question but still ask it why isnt TK on OUR ?
Sil
Too much fighting and drama ( chases plenty away)
The world is overflowing with such fighting and Drama ( daily distractions)
Here it should be a total refuge geared towards research and experiments !
TK has written in the past
"Not enuff actual science /experiments" ( what this forum was founded on and actual reason
Our host still funds it...
Trying to change that so more persons will return with perhaps ideas towards actual experiments (as a few others are doing or trying to do here .
Will take some time , I am quite hopeful knowing the sincere builder / researchers are everywhere ( globally)
And not limited to any one forum...
the resources and talent available is mind boggling...( in open source community
IMO our future depends on it ...
More from the oracle
Quote
TK says
To measure small, time-varying currents it is good to use a 1-ohm non-inductive resistor and measure the voltage drop across the resistor. Then apply Ohm's law. This can be done most easily with the oscilloscope.
End quote
Respectfully submitted
Quote from: Chet K on 2023.11.30, 19:49:33
More from the oracle
Thanks Chet.
Ok, while I'm waiting for rotors to be printed and a new multimeter - I thought I'd push the limits and see if my little monster could impersonate a vertical wind turbine ;D
There's still a little too much reluctance to be completely usable, but with a second monster mounted 30° offset will diminish this significantly. This matters as I'm working on mating the little terrors together. So instead of magnet to coil core attraction happening every 60°, this will become much smoother occuring every 30°.
Axial Adams VAWT (https://youtube.com/shorts/bf7bD9pbj3M?si=m1U1mMNimWksEo6E) in the sun.
Here another bit of pulse motor info from TinselKoala
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z0sjqoshznU
Respectfully submitted
Quote from: Chet K on 2023.12.03, 21:34:37
Here another bit of pulse motor info from TinselKoala
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z0sjqoshznU
Respectfully submitted
Thanks Chet.
Interesting, I had planned to do the same test, but with a 2 hall sensors and 2 coils, instead of a sensor coil - and flip flop building/collapsing fields. I think the reason why TK was seeing better results without the rotor, is because of the AC wave the magnet would introduce. Ironically, that's where I'm able to pull a little bit of current from my EM coils.
Ok, new multimeter day! ...and the results are very promising.
On a 9V / 0.109A input on the EM coils (yes, there is current draw from the PS), the output on the generator coils are 36V / 0.406A (rectified). There's also ~5-7VAC flotating around in the EM coil. The electrical setup is simply switched power directly to EM coils, no other components.
With the EM coils to be re-wound, I'm in two minds whether to do these as bifilar?
Quote from: unimmortal on 2023.12.06, 11:16:33
Ok, new multimeter day! ...and the results are very promising.
On a 9V / 0.109A input on the EM coils (yes, there is current draw from the PS), the output on the generator coils are 36V / 0.406A (rectified). There's also ~5-7VAC flotating around in the EM coil. The electrical setup is simply switched power directly to EM coils, no other components.
With the EM coils to be re-wound, I'm in two minds whether to do these as bifilar?
Thanks for the data.
Would you clarify whether you used any load across the rectified 36V output?
OR you simply shorted the 36V output by the Ampermeter and it measured 0.406 Amper?
If you did the latter i.e. the "load" was the Ampermeter only, then please use a normal resistor load across the rectified DC output. Resistor value is not so critical, any value between 82 Ohm and 100 Ohm would do.
This comes from my assumption that you used the Ampermeter only as the "load" to get the 0.403 A, so 36V divided by 0.4 = 90 Ohm, indicating the generator coils and the rectifiers represent about 90 Ohm internal impedance. Note that if you load the DC output by a 90 Ohm resistor (to get max power transfer), the output voltage would drop to around 18 VDC i.e. would go halves.
IF all these assumptions of mine are correct, then you would need to check whether the 109 mA input current changes when you load the output with the 90 Ohm (or close to) resistor.
A correct evaluation would be to measure
-- first the output DC voltage across your chosen load resistor (any value between say 82 and 110 Ohm)
-- then measure the DC current the load resistor draws (connect the Ampermeter in series with the load resistor)
-- then measure the input current when the load resistor at the output is connected
You can do these measurements using the new multimeter in the above order I suggest.
Then you can do some calculations on the input and output power levels.
Gyula
Quote from: gyula on 2023.12.06, 11:55:24
You can do these measurements using the new multimeter in the above order I suggest.
Then you can do some calculations on the input and output power levels.
Gyula
Thanks for the simple steps Guyla, I'll get this informattion to you shortly.
This new multimeter is a bit like a swiss army knife. Frequency (measuring against alow-side npn transistor) is a cool inclusion which helps put a timescale against things... these results were all occuring at ~50Hz.
I'm currently performing surgery on the LT's to make them into a single device. Broadly summarising the changes: the EM coils will be alternatively pulsing at 60deg at each end instead of 120deg at one end, there will be double the generating coils in the middle, and attraction will be occurring every 30deg instead of every 60deg - all of which should make for some interesting results.
Ok, here is the latest iteration of the Adams Axial. It has now evolved enough that I'll detail the various aspects for anyone playing along at home.
Physical - To contain the pull force of the magnets I've had to move to a more user friendly design that allowed easy testing of various coil housings, and a way to have them isolated from the bearings. The pine board is ~300mm dia x 18mm and the threaded rods and hardware are M10.
Magnetic - Each of the 6 holes of the rotor has 2 20x20mm N40 (10gm) Neo's (15kg pulling force each), with a 5x10mm N40 between them set in a 5mm shelf to hold it all together. The 6 coil cores on each side of the rotor are 12mm in diameter and are offset 30 degrees. The PCD of the rotor magnets is 80mm. Total rotor weight is around 350gm. Airgap between the coil cores and magnets is approx 6-8mm.
Electric - 6 electromagnets, each made with 28m of 1mm wire, wound on a 40x12mm core, wired in series, 4.2 ohms. 6 generator coils, each made with 70m of 0.5mm wire, wound on a 40x12mm core, wired in series, 50.2 ohms.
My switch leaks current due to the hall sensor being at ~2.4v, which is opening the NMOS just enough to flow (as it grounds a voltage divider) but not enough to hit gate threshold on the PFET - nonetheless, there is no increase above the .109A I see when I turn the switch on without the coils connected.
So with an input of 9V, I'm getting back ~16-20VAC on the EM coils, 18VAC on the Gen coils @ 4600rpm. I'm over the moon with these results. The magnetic reluctance is now so low that there is more resistance in a doorknob.
A couple of anamolies though, as the rotor increases in speed I see VAC at the EM coil rise to 5 almost 6, then the multimeter drops back to 0 before jumping to 16-20. I would have put up a photo of my LED train from previous posts, but as it jumps up to 16-20 it took out 8 LEDs... burnt out, dead, on the spot.
The second anamoly - with high speed I'm generating a great deal of EMF and hammering the PFET, so I can only run it for short amounts of time. I've added a lead to each join between the coils to measure what is happening between each of the coils. So with one lead of the multimeter connected to the join between the first and second coils, the multimeter returned around 20V. Now when I touched the other lead of the multimeter, this increases to 57V - not sure how to interpret that number, did I just become an earth reference for EMF or a path for EMF?
I've had this running briefly at 18V and it is scary how fast it wants to spin and how quiet it becomes.
Hello, Happy New Year!
You have achieved nice progress on this newer setup. On the anomalies:
1) It is possible that as the rotor increases in speed there is a certain speed where the multimeter needs time to average out the AC peak voltage spikes that are created by the collapsing EM fields. The peak amplitude of the spikes gradually increases as the rotor advances in RPM.
[ A waveform check by an oscilloscope across the EM coils would help explore what is going on. A HV probe for the scope would be useful to protect its input, I mention this if you have a chance to borrow or have access to an oscilloscope. ]
The LEDs received the spikes and their voltage and current specs were surely exceeded (consider their reverse voltage rating too if applicable).
2) Yes, your body becomes part of the EM field the pulsing electromagnets and the rotating magnets create. The multimeter is an indicator here and serves as a rudimentary field strength meter with forever changing display as you move the leads, your hands etc. Your body conducts some nanoAmper displacement (capacitive) current via the 10 MegaOhm internal meter resistance.
Perhaps, when you feel like doing the measurement steps on this newer setup I outlined above in December, that would be great. 8)
Now you have about 50 Ohm internal generator resistance, so a 50 Ohm load resistance would be a good match for maximum power transfer. You can use a full wave diode bridge and say a 470 uF or even 1000 uF puffer cap. Say you measure 10 VDC across the 50 Ohm resistor, the dissipation in it would be around 2 W. ;)
Gyula
Thank you Gyula, and a happy new year to you.
I've done a whole lot more testing over the past few days, and have almost arrived at a stable baseline - tuning out vibration is a painstaking process. Input consumption is around 9V@40-70mA w/ 10mm air gap.
Attached is the obligatory 2 x 12v globes running on the em coils' rectified emf output. The meters are showing current and volt outputs for the gen coils.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2024.01.10, 03:21:06
Thank you Gyula, and a happy new year to you.
I've done a whole lot more testing over the past few days, and have almost arrived at a stable baseline - tuning out vibration is a painstaking process. Input consumption is around 9V@40-70mA w/ 10mm air gap.
Attached is the obligatory 2 x 12v globes running on the em coils' rectified emf output. The meters are showing current and volt outputs for the gen coils.
Hi unimmortal,
You appear to have the Astro A1 meter connected incorrectly. Read the manual.
bi
https://www.astroai.com/user-manual/up/100019
Yes I think for amperage measurements you need to put red probe to 10A socket
Hi unimmortal,
Thanks for doing the tests.
To err is human of course. Please check again both the input and output currents.
Would like to ask: the 40 - 70 mA input current range means that 40 mA is taken when the 2 globes i.e. bulbs are unconnected and the 70 mA is taken with the bulbs connected?
I cannot see a puffer capacitor across the DC output of the diode bridge, maybe the viewing angle of you camera hides it.
I mention this because when you have unfiltered DC output the meters may or may not not show correct voltage or current values even though you have a true-RMS meter. It is better to filter the rectified AC.
The 17.8 V output voltage may be close to the actual loaded output voltage because of the moderate brightness of the two 12V bulbs connected in series.
When measuring the output current, indeed use the 10 A input of the meter (with the range switch set in A as is shown in your picture)
and in case the bulbs' current is less than 400 mA, then you could plug the red meter probe to the mA input instead of the A input and set the range switch to mA too.
This way you can get more accurate measurement on the output current.
Gyula
Quote from: unimmortal on 2024.01.10, 03:21:06
Thank you Gyula, and a happy new year to you.
I've done a whole lot more testing over the past few days, and have almost arrived at a stable baseline - tuning out vibration is a painstaking process. Input consumption is around 9V@40-70mA w/ 10mm air gap.
Attached is the obligatory 2 x 12v globes running on the em coils' rectified emf output. The meters are showing current and volt outputs for the gen coils.
Thanks Gyula - what size capacitor would you recommend for filtering rectified AC?
I've moved to an external timing wheel as I was getting too much interference at the hall sensor from the coils. Using 10mm dia magnets on a similar PCD to the rotor, the timing and pulse is much sharper now. Testing this last night got me back to where I wanted to be, with inputs as low as 9V@6mA (meter was placed between the power supply and switch). Output is quite low at ~12V@50mA on the gen coils, but that is to be expected until I start switching them. I also haven't measured any output on the EM coils and look forward to verifying that against input current draw.
As a separate and previous test, I placed shottky diodes facing into the EM coil junctions, thinking maybe they'll break down from the EMF when the switch opens and flow power to the connected lights. As it turns out I could moderately illuminate 3 x12V globes connected to the DC negative of the power supply. Again, once I get rid of a few more gremlins that keep popping up, I can retest and validate. Exciting times.
For puffer capacitor use at least 470 uF and higher like 1000 uF electrolytic.
Quote from: gyula on 2024.01.14, 14:04:06
For puffer capacitor use at least 470 uF and higher like 1000 uF electrolytic.
Thanks Gyula.
Ok, finally some consumption figures. 18V@460ma gets me around 23VAC, with a rectifier 20VDC, with a puffer capacitor (+ to -) I stopped it at 30V (25V, 470uF).
Running at 18V is giving me more emf to work with, and with the reverse biased shottky's hanging of each coil join (6 including ground) and aggregating back to ground, the transistor is staying very cool - largely because the timing window is around half the size reducing current draw, but mainly because each coil has its own exit path reducing the emf evac time before the next pulse.
The next step is to switch the generator coils in order to generate an emf kick that should see the current draw of the EM coils drop drastically.
Yes, the rectified peak voltage in the puffer cap can go as high as the peak AC voltage feeding the rectifier if there is no or there is only an electrically little load across the puffer capacitor.
Regarding your next step(s), do as you wish of course, and focus on avoiding self-deception when doing measurements. I still suggest you consider the evaluation steps I wrote in my Reply #54 above
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4539.msg109356#msg109356 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4539.msg109356#msg109356) Choose the load resistor according to the generator coils overall internal resistance, maximum power transfer happens when your load resistor halves the unloaded output voltage.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2024.01.15, 12:21:54
Thanks Gyula.
Ok, finally some consumption figures. 18V@460ma gets me around 23VAC, with a rectifier 20VDC, with a puffer capacitor (+ to -) I stopped it at 30V (25V, 470uF).
Running at 18V is giving me more emf to work with, and with the reverse biased shottky's hanging of each coil join (6 including ground) and aggregating back to ground, the transistor is staying very cool - largely because the timing window is around half the size reducing current draw, but mainly because each coil has its own exit path reducing the emf evac time before the next pulse.
The next step is to switch the generator coils in order to generate an emf kick that should see the current draw of the EM coils drop drastically.
It's been a long while between posts.... so here's a good news update.
First pic show an input of 10W, a load of 15W 240v led globe. Open circuit max = 147V. When tuned right, I can turn the globe on and off with no change in current draw and little if no change in rpm.
Second pic shows how it looks now (sans wiring). Bottom coils are pulse, working together counterwound top / bottom and switching alternatively into N up facing rotors. Top coils are generate, and are also counterwound (bottom CW, top CCW). Induced voltage flows via a diode from CW > CCW. Each of the generator coils are AWG24, 150grams, 90 metres.
Learnt techniques:
Magnets are in part mechanical. The airgap for the pulse coils (~12mm) is double that of the generator coil (~6mm), however they are so balanced a baby could move the rotor even though they are 20mm cores only mm away from N40 Neo's with a holding force of 30Kg and there are 6 in each rotor. Basic leverage applied to magents - two magnet faces for the pulse, one magnet face for the generator. As such the tyranny of cogging due to proximity is now all but gone.
Alternating cores is also part of this trick, the direction the magnetic field is being attracted from constantly oscillates, and in the case of the generator cores 'distracts' the rotor from the pulse cores allowing a good degree of tuning. Without the generator coils, the motor runs with a higher current draw and slower rpm.
So bucking coils on a pulse motor work. Who woulda thought?
Quote from: unimmortal on 2024.11.25, 09:27:53
First pic show an input of 10W,
How are you measuring that power?
Quote from: unimmortal on 2024.11.25, 09:27:53
...a load of 15W 240v led globe.
LEDs are not linear. Do not use non-linear loads.
How are you determining the power dissipated by that load ?
Hey Verpes,
Power is measured via a meter between PS and mosfet (blue screen) right hand side of pic.
As for load and measurements, I'm just happy playing around with this electromagnetic meccano set looking for as much voltage as I can get, and right now I can drive globes and small pedestal fans. A re-arrangement of coils/mags will see mains power voltage with a bit of effort.
The main aspect at the moment is validating bucking coils, but the techniques I've come across, I think, are much more important.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2024.11.26, 08:17:43
Power is measured via a meter between PS and mosfet (blue screen) right hand side of pic.
Does this meter measure input power or some other quantity ?
Quote from: verpies on 2024.11.26, 10:52:37
Does this meter measure input power or some other quantity ?
Yes, it's an inline DC meter (Volts, Amps, Watts - or Power) - typically for monitoring power draw. Ignore the 'Energy' figure, that's over time.
The motor will run on as little as 5V@400ma, but by that point the screen turns off. Tuned I've had it still turning under 1W.
Quote from: unimmortal on 2024.11.26, 22:50:22
Yes, it's an inline DC meter (Volts, Amps, Watts - or Power) - typically for monitoring power draw.
Volts and Amps are not units of power.
Please decide which ones it measures and which ones it calculates.