When I get stuck with something I usually take a rest and go YouTube surfing. The universe then has a unique way in showing you what you need. Some years ago I saw this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyQwgBAaBag&t=14s
Derek from Veritasium has a Phd in physics his videos also go through rigorous scientific validation, he wont upload or claim anything that didn't go through rigorous scientific validation. I respect Derek as he does not let his education or bias get in the way, but most importantly I love him because his videos are a great example on how science education should be done.
So what is special about Blackbird? Well, given an initial push, it keeps
accelerating with or against the wind direction (which does not matter) and keeps doing so until the pilot hits the breaks or something breaks. Seemingly gaining kinetic energy out of nowhere. But how can that be? Isn't that like trying to fly by pulling on the straps of your boots? Against newtons third law, against the 2nd law of thermodynamics, so many laws broken!
Well something everybody seemed to have missed besides its creators is the interplay of two things. Rigid body dynamics and
constraints. Derek calls it "mechanical advantage" in the video but that is not completely true. There is more going on that just a
linear lever effect which just trades distance for force.
First you have the propeller generating a forward force because it is forced by the wheels to do so. Then you have the wheels which can somehow overcome the counter-torque that comes from this and rolls forward. It is not ONLY a lever effect or mechanical advantage as in both cases the back torque of the propeller will be greater than that of the wheels and blackbird would get nowhere. I did the analysis I encourage you to do the same.
The real answer is rigid body dynamics and constraints.
Take a rigid body floating in space problem. Given a force acting on any point of the rigid body:
(https://i.imgur.com/hD6d46p.png)
We want to know how it will behave. If you were paying attention in class you know to apply the following two rules:
- Take the force an apply it on the CoM of the body
- Decompose the force at the point of action, so it becomes perpendicular to the distance vector from the CoM. And use this as a force couple to calculate the torque on the body.
Using these two rules we get:
(https://i.imgur.com/BkkiJUd.png)
If the moment of inertia, or rotational mass as I would like to call, it is also defined we can fully define the motion of said rigid body and the rigid body starts to rotate CW as it moves in the direction of the force. So far so good, nothing new or special.
However lets introduce something new, something we call earth. Lets leave space and take our rigid body with us back to earth. On earth we have something new to play with called "constraints", a magical ability to link masses together and constrain their positions and rotations.
Lets add a first constraint point and apply the same force:
(https://i.imgur.com/yPVQakX.png)
It doesn't take a genius to see that the body would rotate CW. The same direction as it rotated in space.
Now lets use our freedom on earth to relocate the constraint point and see what happens:
(https://i.imgur.com/N3nkd5k.png)
Would you look at that, the same force but the rotation direction has changed just by changing the location of the constraint point. We can freely choose how the torque acts while its linear "component" remains in the same direction. A pretty cool feature if you ask me.
This is the true secret of Blackbird and any OU effect.
It took me a few months to figure out why I saw OU effects in FEMM, the path was long and painful. But I am sure you are much smarter than me and will grasp the significance of this quicker.
Without gravity and friction, these constraints are not possible. Constraints are the diodes of the universe we choose in which direction to point them. The universe has given us lego blocks to play with in the form of mass and how to constrain and structure them. Our imagination is the only limit. We have arguably only used the positive side of friction so far but friction also comes in a "negative" flavor, allowing us to direct the immense potential energies found in earths gravity OR in its rotation OR in magnets, etc etc... and turn it into vast amounts of linear kinetic energy. And the key lies in how rotation is being constrained, whether it is the domains of ferromagnetic materials or gravity its all the same because it IS the same force on all scales. A line and a circle, or what physicists call a particle and field. Friction, the power to constrain them and let them interact is the so called "theory of everything". A force glossed over so quickly and taken for granted that students dont even have the time to wonder how it does what it does.
For some, even this explanation will not be satisfactory. They will "believe it when they see it". However all around us are processes we dont see, yet each and everyone is keeping us alive, so they are not real either? This ridiculous notion comes from materialistic based minds that grabbed on hard matter 100 years ago and never let go. Past scientists were not like this, they explored the visible and invisible. Philosophy was a great part of science until it got dissected out of it and discarded as being useless.
However I found its better to believe before you see, as without imagination you get nowhere. I am also done asking myself how 100 years of science could have missed such a simple and fundamental property of nature as even posting this takes time and energy which I rather could have spent on building and sharing cool ideas. But here we are, first having to go through the many walls of mans ego, before he can accept fault and move on with his life to cooperate in the new reality that is ahead.
"In summary:
Upwind, the rotor harvests the power from the oncoming air and drives the wheels, as would a wind turbine.
Downwind, when the vehicle is traveling faster than the windspeed, the ground is the fastest-moving medium relative to the vehicle, so the wheels harvest the power and impart it to the rotor, which propels the vehicle."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackbird_(wind-powered_vehicle)
If we understand that this was surprising at first, it is more surprising to still see extravagant gibberish on this subject years later, when everything has been perfectly explained and has become flawlessly clear among those capable of rational thinking, see the bibliography of Wikipedia references.
This need to see magic everywhere and to imagine "secrets" revealed to initiates, particularly among those who want to find alternatives to a science that they do not understand, is a psychological aberration of human nature, as we see in religion. This is the kind of thing that completely opposes the search for energy solutions and constantly wastes our time.
Quote from: F6FLT on 2024.05.28, 07:25:27
"In summary:
Upwind, the rotor harvests the power from the oncoming air and drives the wheels, as would a wind turbine."
True, until we start to go faster than the "wind".
Quote from: F6FLT on 2024.05.28, 07:25:27
"In summary:
Downwind, when the vehicle is traveling faster than the windspeed, the ground is the fastest-moving medium relative to the vehicle, so the wheels harvest the power and impart it to the rotor, which propels the vehicle."
I always find this to be the funny part of the argument AGAINST there being anything special with the cart. You and your sources can seem to acknowledge the fact there is power transfer ACCELERATING the cart forward beyond said wind speed. Please tell my ignorant moronic brain where this "harvested" power, you just quoted, came from? A power seemingly being able to overcome the resistance torque of the propeller pulling the cart forward, perpetually accelerating it. You and your "physics" friends seem to gloss over these basic things, as someone with a simple basic mind like mine I must understand the basics before I can understand the great knowledge you hold that effortlessly understands the full picture.
You do realize that a shovel can only get you deep into the ground but not out, at some point you will realize you have dug yourself too deep into the hole. But luckily we always have a choice and unlimited chances to try over, if we can set aside our ego that is. Either set aside your ego, accept failure, call for help and have a laugh about the experience. Or double down on that fragile ego, not call for help and remain there in that dark cold hole until death-by-ego is the only remaining option left. We always have a choice and I wonder which one you will choose.
I dont tend to hold grudged against people, sure you can be annoying and obnoxious at times but the beauty of
true freedom is that we can also choose to avoid or not listen to people if we want. Man can build whatever he wants nature does not care, however what nature cares about is how we adapt to the change it throws at us. Something which the physics community has hardly been doing the last 100 years, at best in the form of ridicule, dismissal, chasing beautiful equations or plain ignorance and at worst by funding fraud, greed and self interest. And then they wonder why so little choose to follow a scientific career. Scientists used to be rockstars that showed us the many wonders the universe holds through stories and experiments, not preachers of old defunct ideas, filling young minds with layers upon layers of equations that describe fundamentally simple things. Equations are fine in order to build stuff, they give us certainty over what we build, equations are the language of computers and engineers. The job of the physicist is to unravel the story of the universe and bring those stories to the masses. You dont tell stories through equations, you tell them through natural language. If you cant explain the story of the universe to a child you have failed as a seeker of truth and perhaps its time to look for a new job.
Nature is not "harsh", it has simple rules for any species to thrive in: Observe, Experience, Cooperate and Imitate in order to thrive and evolve... OR dont and be rolled over by it, go extinct and be recycled by it so next generations get their chance to thrive and evolve. But the choice is always yours to adapt, but remember the wheel of the nature is always moving forward and does not stop spinning for anyone.
Sorry to interrupt
Yes this "revelation " has given many musings to the "what ifs"
IMO
An experiment ( thoughts?) towards a bigger claim ( more obvious "irrefutable " gain mechanism )
Would seem that the proper arrangements could just fly ?( for lack of a better word ..by "leveraging" itself against the atmosphere ( density).
The reason I write the above ... can't remember his name .... However another claim was a gent who played with foils
( I believe for autonomous ocean data collection?)
He stated he could sail up the Nile all the way to its headwaters against the current flow
With no sail
Just the foils ..yeah .. I get the variables and "how it works "
It just seems like there should be more .... Advancement or uses ..
This has always been an interest since I tried to grasp " apparent wind" and sail boats going faster than the wind
( iceboats ( big multi masted vessels too ..100+ mph before automobiles..)
With modern foil tech in water it's 5 times wind speed now ??
Love the topic broli.
Respectfully
Chet K
PS
Or in a totally different direction ( experiment suggestion?) to prove some overlooked attributes?
Edit for broli below
Now I understand your use of the word....
Friction
Thank you for the perspective!
Quote from: Chet K on 2024.05.28, 12:50:12
Sorry to interrupt
Yes this "revelation " has given many musings to the "what ifs"
IMO
An experiment ( thoughts?) towards a bigger claim ( more obvious "irrefutable " gain mechanism )
Would seem that the proper arrangements could just fly ?( for lack of a better word ..by "leveraging" itself against the atmosphere ( density).
The reason I write the above ... can't remember his name .... However another claim was a gent who played with foils
( I believe for autonomous ocean data collection?)
He stated he could sail up the Nile all the way to its headwaters against the current flow
With no sail
Just the foils ..yeah .. I get the variables and "how it works "
It just seems like there should be more .... Advancement or uses ..
This has always been an interest since I tried to grasp " apparent wind" and sail boats going faster than the wind
( iceboats ( big multi masted vessels too ..100+ mph before automobiles..)
With modern foil tech in water it's 5 times wind speed now ??
Love the topic broli.
Respectfully
Chet K
PS
Or in a totally different direction ( experiment suggestion?) to prove some overlooked attributes?
Atleast someone is using their brain. And yes "wind" can be replaced with any medium you choose. Water, feathers, magnetism.... As long as you have something riding between a "hard" and "soft" interface. IE the ground and the air. The magic part is not the medium used, it is why something "soft" and "hard" can interact in such unique way.
For the 1000th time....FRICTION. Which I exapnded on in the first and previous posts on it. We see particles and fields all the way down to quarks and all the way up to matter and dark matter. Yet no one stopped to ask, why is there a pattern of something "hard" interacting with something "soft". What is the force of friction really? Why does it contain a "sign" in its very definition, why does it seem to transcend time and remain the same in different reference frames regardless of the relative velocities these two interact with. Why does it also come in two types, sliding and rolling friction. All basic questions, yet no one seemed to have stopped and wondered about these questions? Surely all the brilliant minds out there should have been curious enough to wonder about such basic things in nature, no?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyQwgBAaBag&t=14s
Interesting video.
The first thing I noticed is that nobody seems to know exactly how the DWFTTW tech works. Oh they offer some amateur explanations but like the wikipedia article they never explain anything that matters. The what, when, where and why of things are missing. A typical non answer.
The second thing I noticed was expected near the end of the video. They go on and on about energy but seem to have no idea where the extra energy to propel the craft faster than the wind comes from. Obviously, the extra energy must come from the wind but the mechanism of conversion seems to have eluded everyone.
We could also note the pattern similar to FE devices.
1)Someone builds a device made of a limited number of common components which looks very simple on the surface.
2)Nobody can seem to understand exactly how it works.
3)Nobody can seem to understand exactly where the energy comes from or why.
4)Due to a lack of understanding most claim it must violate the COE and be a perpetual motion machine, *facepalm*.
AC
Quote from: Chet K on 2024.05.28, 12:50:12
He stated he could sail up the Nile all the way to its headwaters against the current flow
With no sail
QuoteAnd yes "wind" can be replaced with any medium you choose. Water, feathers, magnetism.... As long as you have something riding between a "hard" and "soft" interface. IE the ground and the air. The magic part is not the medium used, it is why something "soft" and "hard" can interact in such unique way.
Why should I, when we were at the OU.com
cited as an example for water instead of air and earth the project "Artemis technologies."?
That is about something completely different there. There is no second point of support in water.
[quote
chief kolbacict
There is no second point of support in water.
End quote
Chief
Perhaps a design or engineering opportunity ( a novel use of friction)?)
Respectfully
Chet
PS
I really like broli's
Friction concept ( as a path to gain .. ,this topic and playing with the "Friction" concept
Gave me some "traction" between the ears ...
Yeah could be circular musings
However ,
No stone left unturned!
Quote from: broli on 2024.05.28, 12:07:51
True, until we start to go faster than the "wind".
I always find this to be the funny part of the argument AGAINST there being anything special with the cart. You and your sources can seem to acknowledge the fact there is power transfer ACCELERATING the cart forward beyond said wind speed. Please tell my ignorant moronic brain where this "harvested" power, you just quoted, came from? A power seemingly being able to overcome the resistance torque of the propeller pulling the cart forward, perpetually accelerating it. You and your "physics" friends seem to gloss over these basic things, as someone with a simple basic mind like mine I must understand the basics before I can understand the great knowledge you hold that effortlessly understands the full picture.
You do realize that a shovel can only get you deep into the ground but not out, at some point you will realize you have dug yourself too deep into the hole. But luckily we always have a choice and unlimited chances to try over, if we can set aside our ego that is. Either set aside your ego, accept failure, call for help and have a laugh about the experience. Or double down on that fragile ego, not call for help and remain there in that dark cold hole until death-by-ego is the only remaining option left. We always have a choice and I wonder which one you will choose.
I dont tend to hold grudged against people, sure you can be annoying and obnoxious at times but the beauty of true freedom is that we can also choose to avoid or not listen to people if we want. Man can build whatever he wants nature does not care, however what nature cares about is how we adapt to the change it throws at us. Something which the physics community has hardly been doing the last 100 years, at best in the form of ridicule, dismissal, chasing beautiful equations or plain ignorance and at worst by funding fraud, greed and self interest. And then they wonder why so little choose to follow a scientific career. Scientists used to be rockstars that showed us the many wonders the universe holds through stories and experiments, not preachers of old defunct ideas, filling young minds with layers upon layers of equations that describe fundamentally simple things. Equations are fine in order to build stuff, they give us certainty over what we build, equations are the language of engineers. The job of the physicist is to unravel the story of the universe and bring those stories to the masses. You dont tell stories through equations, you tell them through natural language. If you cant explain the story of the universe to a child you have failed as a seeker of truth and perhaps its time to look for a new job.
Nature has a very simple rules: Observe it, Experience it, Cooperate and imitate it, adapt and evolve or... die and be recycled so the next generation can thrive. Your choice, the clock is ticking.
More than 20 lines of digressions to say nothing, that's impressive.
And if you add: "above all, no need to think", you end up having to appeal to the ego to make the most intelligent scientists, who have explained the blackbird perfectly, look like psychiatric patients. But you've missed the point.
The notion of ego is very relative, you forgot you had one, and it prevents you from going to the scientific evidence.
Even if you remove all the digressions, there's nothing consistent left in your speech. It's only from the authors of the blackbird papers on Wikipedia that logical, solid reasoning and evidence come.
If you haven't figured out by now that speed isn't energy and isn't conserved, you're in trouble. It's like an electrical potential. Is it any wonder that by charging one capacitor with a 1.5v battery, then another, then another, then putting them in series, you can have a voltage 3 times greater than the battery, and that if you connect them to the battery, you can even pass current through them, the opposite of the current generated by the battery? With wind speed, same thing. The speed of the blackbird is no more related to wind speed than the voltage of the battery is to the set of capacitors. But energy is.
The blackbird works simple by the sail moving down wind slower than the vehicle it is attached to.
Most people see a propeller, but it is not. It is a rotating sail, and the face of that sail moves down wind slower than the vehicle it is attached to.
It is just the same as your pushbike in top gear, where your foot moves slowly forward in relation to the bike, but fast in relation to the road.
Brad
F6FLT
Quoteyou end up having to appeal to the ego to make the most intelligent scientists, who have explained the blackbird perfectly, look like psychiatric patients. But you've missed the point.
That's wonderful, could you point us to the "intelligent scientists, who have explained the blackbird perfectly" because I would love to have look at it. Most of what I have read to date is nonsense which never explains exactly how the energy from the wind is converted allowing the device to move faster than the wind.
Don't get me wrong I know exactly how it works I just want to hear someone else try to explain it. I scoured the net and all I could find are generalities and baseless opinions.
AC
Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024.05.29, 00:55:48
...
Most of what I have read to date is nonsense ...
I'm afraid that someone who talks about the absolute existence of a magnetic field lacks the basic physics needed to give a peremptory opinion on scientific publications, and to understand them.
Even scientists have been fooled by their false intuition. This is what happens when you don't stick to the laws of physics in principle, and when in practice you don't respect the precept: "shut up and do the math".
However, we already had the solution to the DWFTTW in 1969, at the Wikipedia link:
http://projects.m-qp-m.us/donkeypuss/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Bauer-Faster-Than-The-Wind-The-Ancient-Interface.pdf
For the up-wind, it's the same principle.
The simplest way to understand it is to look at the electrical equivalent. The wind provides the energy, which is the battery. Its speed is the potential.
If you have a 12v battery, there's nothing to stop you making a small voltage-boosting circuit, which from the battery voltage provides a floating voltage of 18v, which you add to that of the battery to obtain 18+12=30 V. This is the equivalent of DWFTTW at 2.5 times wind speed. This elevator circuit is the equivalent of the gear that enables you to change the speed of the wheels in relation to that of the blades, and therefore in relation to the relative wind speed.
Quote from: broli on 2024.05.29, 11:17:34
Its incredible how you can quote a paper which goes rigorously over the MATH and CONFIRMING the rotational lever effect by concluding that YES you CAN go faster than the "wind" or "water":
...
What don't you understand?
You can go faster than the wind upwind or downwind, and there's no theoretical speed limit, only those due to losses.
No problem with that. That's what I've always said. No "secrets", only the laws of physics. What is your point in 2 lines ?
Quote from: F6FLT on 2024.05.29, 20:21:17
What don't you understand?
You can go faster than the wind upwind or downwind, and there's no theoretical speed limit, only those due to losses.
No problem with that. That's what I've always said. No "secrets", only the laws of physics. What is your point in 2 lines ?
Ah yes the good old "I knew it all along" strategy.
I dont blame you, I couldn't believe it myself at first. But I am going to stop wasting my time and energy here. So yeah good luck with that shovel of yours.
Quoteauthor=F6FLT link=topic=4672.msg112535#msg112535 date=1717014077
QuoteWhat don't you understand?
You can go faster than the wind upwind or downwind, and there's no theoretical speed limit, only those due to losses.
No problem with that. That's what I've always said. No "secrets", only the laws of physics. What is your point in 2 lines ?
QuoteYou can go faster than the wind upwind
This I would like to see.
Brad
Quote from: broli on 2024.05.29, 20:43:29
Ah yes the good old "I knew it all along" strategy.
...
Like everyone else, I was surprised when the story broke.
I studied it and understood. It's been 12 years.
Maybe you need more than 12 years to understand that, I don't.
Quote from: TinMan on 2024.05.29, 23:41:10
This I would like to see.
Brad
Let's talk about relative wind. If the machine were moving at wind speed (relative speed = 0), it would not be subjected to any force. The condition of motion relative to the wind, i.e. relative to a reference frame linked to the wind, is therefore symmetrical, forwards or backwards, depending on the orientation of the blades or gear direction.
What you really need to remember is that you don't need energy to move forward, only to overcome friction and accelerate. So as long as we can recover a little energy from the wind, we can use it without limit to go faster, there's no impediment in principle but practical limits, that's for sure.
The art of the machine lies in harnessing the wind's energy while minimizing the exposure of the entire machine.
Quote from: F6FLT on 2024.05.30, 16:48:53
Let's talk about relative wind. If the machine were moving at wind speed (relative speed = 0), it would not be subjected to any force. The condition of motion relative to the wind, i.e. relative to a reference frame linked to the wind, is therefore symmetrical, forwards or backwards, depending on the orientation of the blades.
What you really need to remember is that you don't need energy to move forward, only to overcome friction and accelerate. So as long as we can recover a little energy from the wind, we can use it without limit to go faster, there's no impediment in principle but practical limits, that's for sure.
The art of the machine lies in harnessing the wind's energy while minimizing the machine's exposure to the wind.
I will take this as a change of heart and let go of my own ego and our little "argument" and move forward.
The real race will not be against the wind on earth but against the "wind" of space, achieving super luminal speeds in the not so distant future.
Quote from: broli on 2024.05.30, 17:08:23
I will take this as a change of heart and let go of my own ego and our little "argument" and move forward.
The real race will not be against the wind on earth but against the "wind" of space, achieving super luminal speeds in the not so distant future.
O0
Quote from: F6FLT on 2024.05.30, 16:39:33
Like everyone else, I was surprised when the story broke.
I studied it and understood. It's been 12 years.
Maybe you need more than 12 years to understand that, I don't.
If I discovered it 12 years ago and with my dumb building skills I probably would have not be able to do much with it either. However in 12 years time a lot has changed, 3d printers have become very advanced and cheap making it possible for anyone to build and validate their ideas much easier and faster. They went from DIY projects that you had to build yourself to unboxing them and immediately start printing fast. I couldn't have done it without them (shout out to Bambu Lab) as I am just an unskilled IT nerd.
If you dont have one you better get one, at least for a short while, there could be what I call the "toilet paper effect" run on fast 3d printers. As people will think that is what they need to make "energy producing machines". I definitely hope not but humans can be very unpredictable. My two workhorses are plenty for me. But only buy 3d printers to use them not to be a scalper folks. And dont underestimate our Chinese brothers and sisters, they can always figure out a way to produce anything faster than the rate its sold at so that ALL can afford and enjoy the best ideas not only the "lucky" few. That is their true power.
Has anyone else watched the follow up video where a Physics prof bets Derek 10,000 dollars that Blackbird didn't really go faster than the wind?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCsgoLc_fzI
The physics behind how Blackbird actually works is pretty interesting.
See reply #33 here:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4616.msg112558;topicseen#msg112558
bi
Quote from: bistander on 2024.05.31, 02:39:48
See reply #33 here:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4616.msg112558;topicseen#msg112558
bi
I think broli has had 1 too many booster shots.
The workings of the blackbird are simple, not complicated.
The propellor is nothing more than a rotating sail, that moves down wind slower than the wind.
As the sail rotates, it's surface is always changing position back into the wind, thus making it's surface go down wind slower than the wind, which allows the vehicle travel down wind faster than the wind.
Brad
Quote from: TinMan on 2024.05.31, 03:40:39
I think broli has had 1 too many booster shots.
Yeah you could say that, always has been my biggest problem. Too much enthusiasm, sharing too much and moving too fast, until I slip and plant on my face and embarres myself in front of the whole world ;D.
Quote from: TinMan on 2024.05.31, 03:40:39
I think broli has had 1 too many booster shots.
The workings of the blackbird are simple, not complicated.
The propellor is nothing more than a rotating sail, that moves down wind slower than the wind.
As the sail rotates, it's surface is always changing position back into the wind, thus making it's surface go down wind slower than the wind, which allows the vehicle travel down wind faster than the wind.
Brad
I never said it was complicated in fact quite the opposite. I just wanted to make a point as people were fixated on "wind" and "propellers" only. I wanted to show that it generalizes to any "soft" medium and to any "hard" immovable object (the ground in blackbirds case). This generalization extends to Wind, Water, Feathers, Fur, Rubber, Magnetism and whatever soft medium aka "field" we desire if we can also make it ride on something that is hard and "immovable" aka a "particle".
The universe provides infinite energy, however I have learned that convincing others of your ideas takes more energy than even the universe can provide ;D. But that only means that my spark was not strong enough to light a fire, so I just need to retry and retry until it lights and becomes a fire no one can ignore.
Prior to A dozen or so years ago
If you asked most people on the planet if you could go straight into the wind ( even faster than the wind)
Using just the wind ( in a car boat or "whatever "
Most would laugh ( all ?)
And yes ..DWFTTW (down wind faster than the wind)...also made for snickers... until it didn't ( was also done)
Then a bet was placed
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=806&v=yCsgoLc_fzI&feature=youtu.be
One very interesting bit "which broli seems to have built "
Appears at the 13:45-14:0? Mark
Showing the "roll"....friction seems to play ?
Then a young lady shows her design on a treadmill "zipping" or over taking the ground speed of the treadmill
F6 acknowledges there is no limit ("infinite "?) except that created by the environment ( after broli posted his supporting data)
So it takes motion or something in motion to give rise to this opportunity..( the wheel work of nature??)
On a planet that's spinning a thousand miles an hour .. zipping along in space at 63,000? Miles an hour
Where there is absolutely nothing anywhere that is not also in perpetual motion ( atomically etc)
All is in motion...
I am greatful for broli's musings ..
Very
And I see he got another member musing
Smudge
Quote
That video showing the little trolley moving faster than the applied force could be the answer to Bessler's wheel.
End quote
He did write a bit more in broli's friction topic
Post 34
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4616.msg112558;topicseen#msg112558
Wonderful news
broli is learning how to build ...( and inspiring others ( me))
*attached images below)
Empirical evidence always rules the day,
( just ask the professor who lost the bet in above video...
No stone left unturned...
Respectfully ( and with gratitude ( and definitely paying attention!!))
Chet K
Quote from: Chet K on 2024.05.31, 08:29:19
Prior to A dozen or so years ago
If you asked most people on the planet if you could go straight into the wind ( even faster than the wind)
Using just the wind ( in a car boat or "whatever "
Most would laugh ( all ?)
And yes ..DWFTTW (down wind faster than the wind)...also made for snickers... until it didn't ( was also done)
Then a bet was placed
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=806&v=yCsgoLc_fzI&feature=youtu.be
One very interesting bit "which broli seems to have built "
Appears at the 13:45-14:0? Mark
Showing the "roll"....friction seems to play ?
Then a young lady shows her design on a treadmill "zipping" or over taking the ground speed of the treadmill
F6 acknowledges there is no limit ("infinite "?) except that created by the environment ( after broli posted his supporting data)
So it takes motion or something in motion to give rise to this opportunity..( the wheel work of nature??)
On a planet that's spinning a thousand miles an hour .. zipping along in space at 63,000? Miles an hour
Where there is absolutely nothing anywhere that is not also in perpetual motion ( atomically etc)
All is in motion...
I am greatful for broli's musings ..
Very
And I see he got another member musing
Smudge
Quote
That video showing the little trolley moving faster than the applied force could be the answer to Bessler's wheel.
End quote
He did write a bit more in broli's friction topic
Post 34
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4616.msg112558;topicseen#msg112558
Wonderful news
broli is learning how to build ...( and inspiring others ( me))
*attached images below)
Empirical evidence always rules the day,
( just ask the professor who lost the bet in above video...
No stone left unturned...
Respectfully ( and with gratitude ( and definitely paying attention!!))
Chet K
Nothing wrong with the story.
It's how the story is being told.
Brad
Quote from: TinMan on 2024.05.31, 09:57:26
Nothing wrong with the story.
It's how the story is being told.
Brad
Look I sometimes can yap endlessly about stupid things and have too many of my own dumb opinions like everybody else. I am no story teller or "hero". Ultimately, opinions and stories aside, all I did was share a thing I had with everyone else. If you dont like then you can ban me from your story telling communities.
Anyway I have yapped enough now, this is going to be my last post until "that" post. Take care O0
Hi Brad,
I don't think your idea of the propeller acting as a pair of sails is correct. I know they made that comparison in the first video. But look closely at the video around the 16 and a half minute mark and stop the video or use slow motion to note the angle of the blades. They are acting like a fan, not a pair of sails. And proof of this is the model on the treadmill. There is no wind involved in that at all. Just the turning of the wheels which is driving the propeller to move the car faster than the treadmill is turning the wheels.
My 2 cents.
Carroll
Quote from: CITFTA on 2024.05.31, 11:27:41
Hi Brad,
I don't think your idea of the propeller acting as a pair of sails is correct. I know they made that comparison in the first video. But look closely at the video around the 16 and a half minute mark and stop the video or use slow motion to note the angle of the blades. They are acting like a fan, not a pair of sails. And proof of this is the model on the treadmill. There is no wind involved in that at all. Just the turning of the wheels which is driving the propeller to move the car faster than the treadmill is turning the wheels.
My 2 cents.
Carroll
Hi Carroll
The treadmill buggies work differently, where it is the treadmill motor that is turning the propeller, which pushes the buggy up hill.
In this case, the ground (treadmill bed) is moving, which in turn powers the wheels that turn the propeller.
With the blackbird, the ground supplies no power to the vehicle, as it is stationary.
The vehicle is powered by the wind. You take away the wind, and the vehicle stops, which means that it is not the propeller pushing the wind backwards.
It is hard for most to understand, but the propeller is acting as a sail, which surfaces, in relation to the wind, are going down wind slower than the vehicle, due to their angle and rotation.
The effect can be replicated with a flat sail, where the sail will travel down wind slower than the vehicle.
Every time the blades rotate just a bit, there surfaces are now moving into an area of the wind that has not yet impacted the blades.
The propeller is not pushing air backwards against the oncoming wind.
Those like veritasium and Steve Mould are content creators, and often get things wrong.
Take the !mould effect! for example, where Steve claims that the chain fountain effect is due to the balls of the chain that are laying in the bowl, somehow is pushing the chain up higher and higher.
He even made it to Wikipedia with his claim lol. But the fact is, the chain rises due to inertia-nothing more.
Brad,
I agreed with you until I stopped the video several times and looked at the angle of the blades. They are turning the opposite direction from how they would be turning if the wind was turning them. The wheels are turning the blades, not the wind. The second video explains it better.
Carroll
Tinman
QuoteThe effect can be replicated with a flat sail, where the sail will travel down wind slower than the vehicle.
Every time the blades rotate just a bit, there surfaces are now moving into an area of the wind that has not yet impacted the blades.
The propeller is not pushing air backwards against the oncoming wind.
Think about what you just said,
"Every time the blades rotate just a bit, there surfaces are now moving into an area of the wind that has not yet impacted the blades".
That is true when the cart is below the wind speed but when the cart speed is equal to the wind speed... there is no wind. Thus there is nothing to impact the blades. Which is the reason why no drag based device can exceed the wind speed.
In fact it relates to a simple experiment anyone can do. Grab a stick and tie a piece of flexible yarn or string on it then jump in your truck and drive directly down wind with the stick out the window. When the yarn falls straight down your speedometer reading is the current wind speed. This proves that when our velocity directly down wind is equal to the wind speed there is in fact no wind.
So you seem to be barking up the wrong tree in my opinion.
AC
Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024.05.31, 16:13:37
Tinman
Think about what you just said,
"Every time the blades rotate just a bit, there surfaces are now moving into an area of the wind that has not yet impacted the blades".
That is true when the cart is below the wind speed but when the cart speed is equal to the wind speed... there is no wind. Thus there is nothing to impact the blades. Which is the reason why no drag based device can exceed the wind speed.
In fact it relates to a simple experiment anyone can do. Grab a stick and tie a piece of flexible yarn or string on it then jump in your truck and drive directly down wind with the stick out the window. When the yarn falls straight down your speedometer reading is the current wind speed. This proves that when our velocity directly down wind is equal to the wind speed there is in fact no wind.
So you seem to be barking up the wrong tree in my opinion.
AC
As I said, it is hard for most to understand, as they see the blades (sails) as being stationary, when in fact, they are rotating.
The angle and rotation of the blades means they are in effect being continually impacted by an area of the wind not yet stopped by the blades.
I will try and explain in a way that is easily understood.
Take a big long tub of butter (our wind). Now, you get a propeller, say from a boat engine.
You move the tub of butter down the road at say 10mph. You then rotate the propeller when submerged in the butter, so as it moves forward in the same direction the tub of butter is going down the road.
The propeller will now move forward down the road at a higher rate of speed than the tub of butter is going, due to the fact that the blades of the propeller are cutting into a new portion of the moving butter as it rotates. As every action has an equal and opposite reaction, the new portion of butter that continuously impacts the blades surface, is pushing on the blades just as much as the blades are pushing on the butter.
So, the wind is just a less dense fluid than the butter, but it still has the same working principle.
It does not matter that the wind is going slower than the vehicle, as the propeller blades will be continuously impacting a new portion of the wind that will push against the propeller blades.
To sum up
1- the vehicle is stationary
2-the wind pushes against the blades of the propeller
3-the vehicle starts to move
4- the moving vehicle then causes the propeller to rotate
5- the rotating propeller ensures that the blades are continually impaction a new portion of the wind
6- the wind is always pushing against the propeller, regardless of the fact that the vehicle itself is going faster than the wind, due to the angle of the blades, and their rotation into the new portion of the wind.
In effect, the blades surfaces (sails) are moving down wind slower than the wind, regardless of the fact that the vehicle is moving down wind faster than the wind.
The simple fact is, if the wind stops, so does the vehicle.
The vehicle does not make it's own wind to push against.
Brad
Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024.05.31, 16:13:37
Tinman
Think about what you just said,
"Every time the blades rotate just a bit, there surfaces are now moving into an area of the wind that has not yet impacted the blades".
That is true when the cart is below the wind speed but when the cart speed is equal to the wind speed... there is no wind. Thus there is nothing to impact the blades. Which is the reason why no drag based device can exceed the wind speed.
In fact it relates to a simple experiment anyone can do. Grab a stick and tie a piece of flexible yarn or string on it then jump in your truck and drive directly down wind with the stick out the window. When the yarn falls straight down your speedometer reading is the current wind speed. This proves that when our velocity directly down wind is equal to the wind speed there is in fact no wind.
So you seem to be barking up the wrong tree in my opinion.
AC
Hope the picture below explains it a little clearer.
Brad
Tinman
QuoteTo sum up
1- the vehicle is stationary
2-the wind pushes against the blades of the propeller
3-the vehicle starts to move
4- the moving vehicle then causes the propeller to rotate
5- the rotating propeller ensures that the blades are continually impaction a new portion of the wind
6- the wind is always pushing against the propeller, regardless of the fact that the vehicle itself is going faster than the wind, due to the angle of the blades, and their rotation into the new portion of the wind.
In effect, the blades surfaces (sails) are moving down wind slower than the wind, regardless of the fact that the vehicle is moving down wind faster than the wind.
I understand what your saying but think most would agree you have only explained something we already know.
When you say,
Quote5- the rotating propeller ensures that the blades are continually impaction a new portion of the wind
This is no different than saying the wind does not flow through the propeller blades like a wind turbine and acts like an airplane prop. It's always cutting into new air ahead of the craft and moving it rearward just like an airplane.
This is confirmed by the next statement,
Quote6- the wind is always pushing against the propeller, regardless of the fact that the vehicle itself is going faster than the wind, due to the angle of the blades, and their rotation into the new portion of the wind.
Yes, the propeller is pushing air rearward against the wind just like an airplane would flying down wind like so Wind>>> <<<Prop--vehicle.
In my mind what you just explained is obvious and was never in question. Within minutes of first seeing the DWFTTW setup it was obvious to me the prop must move air rearward against the wind to go faster than the wind.
The real question people want an answer to is...
1)It's obvious the extra energy which allows the craft to go faster than the wind comes from the wind. The wind is literally the only place the energy could come from. The question is how does this setup convert energy from the wind to make the craft go faster than the wind?.
2)So we have already established that the propeller cuts into new air ahead of the craft and moves it rearward just like an airplane. Thus the propeller cannot act like a sail any more than an airplane prop acts like a sail. Simply put, moving air acts on a sail while a propeller acts on moving air and they are not the same thing. The question is why do people claim the prop acts like a sail when we have already established the fact it cannot?.
AC
Quoteauthor=Allcanadian link=topic=4672.msg112592#msg112592 date=1717254966
QuoteThe question is why do people claim the prop acts like a sail when we have already established the fact it cannot?.
Who established this fact?
It is clear that the faces of the propeller are moving forward slower than the vehicle, in relation to the wind speed.
Quote)So we have already established that the propeller cuts into new air ahead of the craft and moves it rearward just like an airplane.
No air is being pushed backward by the propeller.
That is the one mistake most make.
You can of course show me any evidence that the air is being pushed backward by the propeller.
QuoteSo we have already established that the propeller cuts into new air ahead of the craft and moves it rearward just like an airplane. Thus the propeller cannot act like a sail any more than an airplane prop acts like a sail. Simply put, moving air acts on a sail while a propeller acts on moving air and they are not the same thing.
The fact is no that at all. The propeller on a plane is driven by an engine-the source of energy turning it.
The propeller on the blackbird is powered by the wind pushing on it, not by the propeller pushing wind back against the wind that created the energy in the first place.
You are basically saying that we can send 12 volts from a battery, through some kind of circuit, and then that circuit can send say 15 volts back into the battery continually. Not going to happen.
The blades on the propeller can never push back against the wind harder than the wind pushing on the blades.
QuoteThe question is how does this setup convert energy from the wind to make the craft go faster than the wind?.
I have answered that question.
The faces of the blades are moving down wind slower than the vehicle.
How can your foot pushing a pedal on a bike go slower than the road passing under it?
All to do with gearing and blade pitch angle
I have shown you exactly how the surface of the blades move slower down wind than the vehicle, and that is exactly how it works.
Brad
Tinman
QuoteNo air is being pushed backward by the propeller.
That is the one mistake most make.
You can of course show me any evidence that the air is being pushed backward by the propeller.
ChatGPT
Question: is the propeller of the DWFTTW craft blowing air rearward against the wind?.
Answer: Yes, that's correct. In a DWFTTW craft, the propeller or turbine is indeed blowing air rearward against the wind. This might seem paradoxical at first, but it's a crucial aspect of how these vehicles operate.
Confirmation question: is the wind blowing through the propeller of the DWFTTW craft.
Answer: No, in a Downwind Faster Than the Wind (DWFTTW) craft, the wind is not blowing through the propeller. Instead, the propeller is driven by the airspeed generated by the motion of the craft relative to the wind.
https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project-ideas/ApMech_p056/mechanical-engineering/impossible-wind-powered-car
QuoteHowever, the behavior is actually the opposite: the drag force from the wind on the body of the car pushes it forward, spinning the wheels. The wheels are connected to the propeller with gears and chains, causing it to spin and act like a fan: it blows air backwards and pushes the car forward (due to Newton's third law of motion).
QuoteYou are basically saying that we can send 12 volts from a battery, through some kind of circuit, and then that circuit can send say 15 volts back into the battery continually. Not going to happen.
The blades on the propeller can never push back against the wind harder than the wind pushing on the blades.
You just fell into the same logic trap as everyone else assuming this must violate the COE which we know is not true. As ChatGPT said, This might seem paradoxical at first and it does which is why literally everyone came to the wrong conclusion. In fact the false assumption you just made is why DWFTTW generated so much controversy and went viral in the first place. The website article below touches on this subject...
https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project-ideas/ApMech_p056/mechanical-engineering/impossible-wind-powered-car
QuoteEither way, you might expect it to be impossible for this vehicle to go faster than the wind. Wouldn't that violate the law of conservation of energy? YouTube is full of bogus claims about perpetual motion machines—is this just another hoax? Or, could there be some fundamental errors in the experiment and data collection that just made it seem like Blackbird was traveling faster than the wind?
So all the controversy came about because right of the bat everyone made a number of false assumptions ...
1)They falsely assumed the wind must be blowing through the propeller like a sail. It does not, the propeller is blowing air rearward against the wind in the opposite direction everyone assumed.
2) They falsely assumed that because the cart is moving faster than the wind it must be a perpetual motion machine and violate the conservation of energy. Apparently everything, no matter how simple, people don't understand must violate the COE, lol.
Simply put, congratulations your normal and you made all the same mistakes 99% of other people did.
AC
Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024.06.02, 15:41:09
Tinman
ChatGPT
Question: is the propeller of the DWFTTW craft blowing air rearward against the wind?.
Answer: Yes, that's correct. In a DWFTTW craft, the propeller or turbine is indeed blowing air rearward against the wind. This might seem paradoxical at first, but it's a crucial aspect of how these vehicles operate.
Confirmation question: is the wind blowing through the propeller of the DWFTTW craft.
Answer: No, in a Downwind Faster Than the Wind (DWFTTW) craft, the wind is not blowing through the propeller. Instead, the propeller is driven by the airspeed generated by the motion of the craft relative to the wind.
https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project-ideas/ApMech_p056/mechanical-engineering/impossible-wind-powered-car
You just fell into the same logic trap as everyone else assuming this must violate the COE which we know is not true. As ChatGPT said, This might seem paradoxical at first and it does which is why literally everyone came to the wrong conclusion. In fact the false assumption you just made is why DWFTTW generated so much controversy and went viral in the first place. The website article below touches on this subject...
https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project-ideas/ApMech_p056/mechanical-engineering/impossible-wind-powered-car
So all the controversy came about because right of the bat everyone made a number of false assumptions ...
1)They falsely assumed the wind must be blowing through the propeller like a sail. It does not, the propeller is blowing air rearward against the wind in the opposite direction everyone assumed.
2) They falsely assumed that because the cart is moving faster than the wind it must be a perpetual motion machine and violate the conservation of energy. Apparently everything, no matter how simple, people don't understand must violate the COE, lol.
Simply put, congratulations your normal and you made all the same mistakes 99% of other people did.
AC
Congratulation on waking up. There is nothing inheritably special about blackbird or the air that pushes it forward if you understand that anything that has a "soft" and "hard" medium can do this. Its a rotational lever that produces relative motion only based on rigid body dynamics which we perceive as "kinetic" energy or "potential" energy but reduces to just circles and lines interacting at their tangent points :).
However all the system needs is a "kick", a "big bang", a lightning strike, an initial heart beat or the proverbial "touch of god" to get things rolling.
Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024.06.02, 15:41:09
Tinman
ChatGPT
Question: is the propeller of the DWFTTW craft blowing air rearward against the wind?.
Answer: Yes, that's correct. In a DWFTTW craft, the propeller or turbine is indeed blowing air rearward against the wind. This might seem paradoxical at first, but it's a crucial aspect of how these vehicles operate.
Confirmation question: is the wind blowing through the propeller of the DWFTTW craft.
Answer: No, in a Downwind Faster Than the Wind (DWFTTW) craft, the wind is not blowing through the propeller. Instead, the propeller is driven by the airspeed generated by the motion of the craft relative to the wind.
https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project-ideas/ApMech_p056/mechanical-engineering/impossible-wind-powered-car
You just fell into the same logic trap as everyone else assuming this must violate the COE which we know is not true. As ChatGPT said, This might seem paradoxical at first and it does which is why literally everyone came to the wrong conclusion. In fact the false assumption you just made is why DWFTTW generated so much controversy and went viral in the first place. The website article below touches on this subject...
https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project-ideas/ApMech_p056/mechanical-engineering/impossible-wind-powered-car
So all the controversy came about because right of the bat everyone made a number of false assumptions ...
1)They falsely assumed the wind must be blowing through the propeller like a sail. It does not, the propeller is blowing air rearward against the wind in the opposite direction everyone assumed.
2) They falsely assumed that because the cart is moving faster than the wind it must be a perpetual motion machine and violate the conservation of energy. Apparently everything, no matter how simple, people don't understand must violate the COE, lol.
Simply put, congratulations your normal and you made all the same mistakes 99% of other people did.
AC
The last thing i would be doing, is asking chatGPT for anything.
It will give you any answer you seek.
It is great at repeating the same mistakes others make.
Example--
Tinman
I want to tell you more and explain exactly how the DWFTTW tech works but cannot at the moment. I'm presently designing wind turbines based on the concept, plan on making some video's and writing a science paper.
It's not rocket science, when few if any can understand a technology and think it is impossible the greater it's value. There is actually a ratio where the inherent worth of a technology rises exponentially faster than it's difficulty to understand. Similar to why FE is considered priceless because nobody can seem to understand it.
Wind power is a no brainier in my opinion and where a FE device could get us killed a revolutionary new wind turbine could make us wealthy.
AC
Good point, Chet!
" Empirical evidence always rules the day,"
I totally agree!
Steve
I just want to ask a question to help me see and understand different perspectives.
QUESTION- In the image below- it is not harvesting from the wind, it is using the drive belt. The wheels are turning counter-clockwise as the drive belt turns clockwise. When the car is traveling forward, the wheels are assisting the belt, thus taking load off the driving motor.
If there was no losses from friction and we took off the propeller, the wheels match the speed of the belt, so there will be no movement of the car. Similar to AC's example of hanging string out the car window.
Now we add the propeller. Now the belt now must exert extra energy to move the propeller. Now the propeller is oriented in a way which pushes the car forward.
As I see it, just considering the belt and propeller, we have a 1:1 balance (assuming no losses). We are drawing enough power from the belt to create "work" of turning a propeller.
Now the propeller pulls the car forward. But the wheels on the car are rotating in the direction which returns the energy it took to move the car back to the belt. The wheels rotating in that direction actually push the rotating belt in the same direction it is going in the first place, thus taking load off the treadmill.
So it seems to me- we pay for the power to drive the fan to push the car- and the car draws energy from the fan to move. All 1:1 so far. But then the amazing part happens. The car is designed to transfer the equal and opposite reaction back to the treadmill drive belt through the wheels (that takes some load off the drive motor) which is equal to the energy the car imparted onto the fan to create the motion.
Since the car takes energy from the fan, then returns the energy to the drivebelt- we spend money driving a fan with input power. We get the movement of air equal to the input BUT the movement of the car comes free. The very energy that was taken from the fan to move the car gets returned to the belt to alleviate the extra load from the input of moving the car.
of course I understand real-world builds have losses. This is all assuming a setup with no losses for ease of evaluation
Another way to say it:
Fans need a base that can withstand the force of the moving air so the fan does not fall over from the force. So power of the moving air creates a torque equally strong that gets transferred to the fan's base. (newtons 3rd law)
This system leverages that wasted torque on the fan's base by converting it to rotational energy to assist driving the fan.
Quote from: floodrod on 2024.06.05, 11:05:19
This system leverages that wasted torque on the fan's base by converting it to rotational energy to assist driving the fan.
How is this different from if the propeller were fixed to the ground ? ( wind generator)
Quote from: chief kolbacict on 2024.06.05, 16:57:02
How is this different from if the propeller were fixed to the ground ? ( wind generator)
Windmill harvests wind energy. Equal amount of energy is exerted onto the windmill mast or Mount. The torque applied to the mount gets wasted.
This setup harvests that energy to create motion. It causes some sacrifice to the propeller speed at first. But then the wheels give the sacrifice back because the wheels are turning quicker than the treadmill in the direction that takes strain off the treadmill source.
Action- equal and opposite reaction
Two opposite actions - two opposite equal and opposite reactions.
Equal and opposite reaction will benefit opposite action.
Because the opposite of the opposite is the same.
Quote from: floodrod on 2024.06.05, 10:55:44
I just want to ask a question to help me see and understand different perspectives.
QUESTION- In the image below- it is not harvesting from the wind, it is using the drive belt. The wheels are turning counter-clockwise as the drive belt turns clockwise. When the car is traveling forward, the wheels are assisting the belt, thus taking load off the driving motor.
If there was no losses from friction and we took off the propeller, the wheels match the speed of the belt, so there will be no movement of the car. Similar to AC's example of hanging string out the car window.
Now we add the propeller. Now the belt now must exert extra energy to move the propeller. Now the propeller is oriented in a way which pushes the car forward.
As I see it, just considering the belt and propeller, we have a 1:1 balance (assuming no losses). We are drawing enough power from the belt to create "work" of turning a propeller.
Now the propeller pulls the car forward. But the wheels on the car are rotating in the direction which returns the energy it took to move the car back to the belt. The wheels rotating in that direction actually push the rotating belt in the same direction it is going in the first place, thus taking load off the treadmill.
So it seems to me- we pay for the power to drive the fan to push the car- and the car draws energy from the fan to move. All 1:1 so far. But then the amazing part happens. The car is designed to transfer the equal and opposite reaction back to the treadmill drive belt through the wheels (that takes some load off the drive motor) which is equal to the energy the car imparted onto the fan to create the motion.
Since the car takes energy from the fan, then returns the energy to the drivebelt- we spend money driving a fan with input power. We get the movement of air equal to the input BUT the movement of the car comes free. The very energy that was taken from the fan to move the car gets returned to the belt to alleviate the extra load from the input of moving the car.
of course I understand real-world builds have losses. This is all assuming a setup with no losses for ease of evaluation
And this is where most make their mistake.
The example of the tread mill vehicles.
The propeller is not pushing wind faster out the back than the speed the belt on the tread mill is traveling in the same direction.
The propeller is pushing against a static collum of air, and is shifting just enough air to overcome the force of gravity, and small amount of friction, so as the vehicle moves up the incline.
So in relation, the propeller is moving through the area of air at a much slower rate than the vehicles/ground speed relationship.
The very same happens with the DWFTTW vehicle, where the propellers surfaces are going down wind at a much slower rate than the vehicle is going down wind.
This is a hard concept for most to understand, as we have seen, and even some of those !experts! have made the same wrong conclusion on how the DWFTTW vehicle works.
They are telling us that the wind that pushes against the blades of the propeller (which is what powers the vehicle), is no longer needed once the vehicle starts moving at a certain speed.
They see the propeller moving down wind faster than the wind, and come to a false conclusion-as we have seen many times.
They are basically saying we could power a circuit with a constant 12 volts from a battery, and once that circuit is up and running, it can push a constant 15 volts back into the battery. I would love to see that :D
They get confused between the propeller as a whole, traveling down wind faster than the wind, and what speed the rotating faces of the blades are actually traveling at in relation to the wind speed.
Angular velocity completely eludes them in this case.
Brad
Below is a diagram showing the working principles of the DWFTTW vehicle.
It is exactly the same as a sail boat or sail board tacking across the wind, and traveling faster than the wind.
But rather than the sail moving in a linear fashion at an angle across the wind, the sail is rotated, so as it can move at an angle across the wind, going straight down wind.
As the blades cut into the wind at an angle, pressure builds up on the back surface of the blade, and decreases on the front surface of the blade.
This pressure differential applies the force that pushes the vehicle down wind faster than the wind, which is exactly how it works with sail boats and the likes.
The propeller does not push wind backwards faster than the wind speed powering the vehicle.
In order for wind to be pushed backwards, it would have to exceed the forward wind speed.
We would then not need the wind at all, and could have self propelled vehicles.
Brad
Quote from: TinMan on 2024.06.07, 06:56:23
Below is a diagram showing the working principles of the DWFTTW vehicle.
It is exactly the same as a sail boat or sail board tacking across the wind, and traveling faster than the wind.
But rather than the sail moving in a linear fashion at an angle across the wind, the sail is rotated, so as it can move at an angle across the wind, going straight down wind.
As the blades cut into the wind at an angle, pressure builds up on the back surface of the blade, and decreases on the front surface of the blade.
This pressure differential applies the force that pushes the vehicle down wind faster than the wind, which is exactly how it works with sail boats and the likes.
The propeller does not push wind backwards faster than the wind speed powering the vehicle.
In order for wind to be pushed backwards, it would have to exceed the forward wind speed.
We would then not need the wind at all, and could have self propelled vehicles.
Brad
You fell in the same mind trap as the "physicists" you battle against. If you dont understand blackbird you will keep chasing dragons even in your own work.
"The propeller is not pushing wind faster out the back than the speed the belt on the tread mill is traveling in the same direction."
Although I disagree with your theory, I do not disagree with this statement.
I would say it is not pushing it out "Faster", but is pushing a larger volume of air.
Think of a windmill. We can design it for Torque or Speed. The larger area the windmill blades cover, the more power it can harvest. On both the small scale model and the read prototype, the propeller is pretty large in comparison to the car. Speed (voltage) is only one aspect of power. We also have Volume (current).
The DWFTTW can can reach speeds in excess of Double the wind speed.
Quote from: floodrod on 2024.06.07, 15:53:36
...
Speed (voltage) is only one aspect of power. We also have Volume (current).
...
A correct analogy would be (power, pressure, volume flow rate) to (power, voltage, current) to (power, force, velocity).
bi
Quoteauthor=floodrod link=topic=4672.msg112638#msg112638 date=1717775616
The DWFTTW can can reach speeds in excess of Double the wind speed.
So can a sail boarder, but his sail is not pushing wind backwards to do so.
Brad
Quote from: broli on 2024.06.07, 08:17:30
You fell in the same mind trap as the "physicists" you battle against. If you dont understand blackbird you will keep chasing dragons even in your own work.
Would love to see some of your work.
I have over 300 videos on you tube of mine-example replicated by another-->
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvf9Uo7UVx0&list=FLsLiBC2cL5GsZGLcj2rm-4w&index=35&t=373s
Here is the DWFTTW money shot...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqXbV0gsjfM
Money Shot - Opposing Wind
A few things to note,
1)The propeller pitch and spin direction in the video clearly show the propeller is pushing air rearward against the wind like an airplane prop and not acting like a sail.
2)We can see three wind direction indicators, two lower and one in front of the prop, all showing a rearward moving air flow against the wind.
Here is the most obvious question, how did people get it in there head this craft has anything to do with a sail or sailboats?.
I see no water, no boat, no drag based devices like a sail so why are so many people infatuated with the notion of a sail?. What I do see is a propeller driving air rearwards against the wind similar to an airplane with a tail wind. It just so happens the propeller of this wing less craft is driven by it's wheels still on the ground. So once again I think most of the problem is people seeing what they want to see and not what is actually present.
As well, I think the DWFTTW concept is a perfect example of why nobody can seem to understand FE. Here we have a simple machine even a six year old could build with all of 3 moving parts (the wheels, a belt drive and a prop). Three basic moving parts and yet 99% of people still cannot seem to understand how it works. I mean, if 99% of people lose there mind over a wind toy with three moving parts then why would they think they have the intellectual capacity to understand a FE device?.
So how can something move faster than the thing pushing it...here is a clue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-trDF8Yldc
Under the ruler faster than the ruler
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yt4zxYuPzI&t=0s
Under the ruler 2: the ground moves
It's comical because the author presents the facts in an almost Mr. Dressup kind of way even a six year old can understand. Forget the fact 99% of adults come to the wrong conclusion which is in effect part of the humor.
AC
Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024.06.08, 01:23:02
It's comical because the author presents the facts in an almost Mr. Dressup kind of way even a six year old can understand. Forget the fact 99% of adults come to the wrong conclusion which is in effect part of the humor.
The world is about to become a very funny cartoon.
Yabba-Dabba-Doo
(https://cdn.imgchest.com/files/myd5cgj3pz4.jpg)
Quote from: TinMan on 2024.06.07, 23:37:14
...
I have over 300 videos on you tube of mine-example replicated by another-->
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvf9Uo7UVx0&list=FLsLiBC2cL5GsZGLcj2rm-4w&index=35&t=373s
is it free energy ?
Quote from: F6FLT on 2024.06.16, 17:59:03
is it free energy ?
I am unable to say what was happening, as it never had a scope thrown onto it to see what was going on.
I am guessing, that where the DMMs were set to DC, the waveform became AC, which the DMMs could not read.
But that is just a guess.
Brad
Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024.06.08, 01:23:02
<snip>
So how can something move faster than the thing pushing it...here is a clue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-trDF8Yldc
Under the ruler faster than the ruler
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yt4zxYuPzI&t=0s
Under the ruler 2: the ground moves
<snip>
Hi all,
Along similar lines, I found a well done video using a 'toy' cart to assist understanding physics. Found here:
https://hackaday.com/2024/07/11/you-can-build-a-little-car-that-goes-farther-than-you-push-it/
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