From Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_wind)
QuoteIon wind, ionic wind, or coronal wind is a stream of ionized fluid generated by a strong electric field. Francis Hauksbee, curator of instruments for the Royal Society of London, made the earliest report of electric wind in 1709.[1] Myron Robinson completed an extensive bibliography and literature review during the 1950's resurgence of interest in the phenomena.[2]
Electric charges on conductors reside entirely on their external surface (see Faraday cage), and tend to concentrate more around sharp points and edges than on flat surfaces. This means that the electric field generated by charges on a sharp conductive point is much stronger than the field generated by the same charge residing on a large smooth spherical conductive shell. When this electric field strength exceeds what is known as the corona discharge inception voltage (CIV) gradient, it ionizes the air about the tip, and a small faint purple jet of plasma can be seen in the dark on the conductive tip. Ionization of the nearby air molecules result in generation of ionized air molecules having the same polarity as that of the charged tip. Subsequently, the tip repels the like-charged ion cloud, and the ion cloud immediately expands due to the repulsion between the ions themselves. This repulsion of ions creates an electric "wind" that emanates from the tip, which is usually accompanied by a hissing noise due to the change in air pressure at the tip.
Unlike the functionality of the Electrohydrodynamic (EHD) thruster, the net force generated by an ion wind device does not rely on the momentum transfer between the charged and the neutral air molecules, but only on the impulse that the charged ions gain during their repulsion from the tip. It is analogous to recoil of a gun when it fires a bullet.
Marco,
With reference to your question (now deleted) PAGD, or a moving plasma?
.99
That's not where i'm heading here.
This is just about a sharp tip that is connected to a high voltage source.
It will spew out ion wind and there will be a magnetic response in free space.
That alone say's alot about the orgin of the magnetic field but i leave it up to you to draw those conclusions.
Anyway this paticular ion wind setup generates the same magnetic field regardless of the polarity of the power supply.
Simpel said this means the magnetic field is always the same no matter what you put in.
If you put in DC and switch polarity the magnetic field stays the same.
If you put in high frequency AC the magnetic field stays the same.
:)
Quote from: Microcontroller on 2010.12.20, 18:03:21
That's not where i'm heading here.
This is just about a sharp tip that is connected to a high voltage source.
It will spew out ion wind and there will be a magnetic response in free space.
That alone say's alot about the orgin of the magnetic field but i leave it up to you to draw those conclusions.
Anyway this paticular ion wind setup generates the same magnetic field regardless of the polarity of the power supply.
Simpel said this means the magnetic field is always the same no matter what you put in.
If you put in DC and switch polarity the magnetic field stays the same.
If you put in high frequency AC the magnetic field stays the same.
:)
An ion wind represents charge particles in motion, and a charge in motion is known to generate a magnetic field.
Well very interesting MrCo, when you say the magnetic field stays the same, I take it you mean the polarity as witnessed by a compass or other magnetic sensing means never changes.
The high frequency AC is interesting, since the ion wind should be reversing direction at the AC frequency, which means the magnetic field should change polarity, but you are saying it does not.
I'll have to investigate this at my next earliest convenience. Thanks for the "tip"
What happened to your PAGD work?
Incidentally, I'm not that far off with the plasma suggestion.
.99
Quote from: ION on 2010.12.20, 18:19:53
The high frequency AC is interesting, since the ion wind should be reversing direction at the AC frequency, which means the magnetic field should change polarity, but you are saying it does not.
Exactly.
And besides that, it is conductive another important note.
Quote from: poynt99 on 2010.12.20, 18:19:55
What happened to your PAGD work?
Incidentally, I'm not that far off with the plasma suggestion.
.99
Youre right on with the plasma suggestion.
PAGD it is here:
As usual, excellent work.
Have you fired it up yet?
.99
Look at the date on the picture what do you think.
I have done some tests under a high vacuum and this is not the only tube..i made more.
The vacuum needed forms a barrier for most researchers which is why i want to set this thing aside.
Quote from: ION on 2010.12.20, 18:19:53
The high frequency AC is interesting, since the ion wind should be reversing direction at the AC frequency, which means the magnetic field should change polarity, but you are saying it does not.
I'll have to investigate this at my next earliest convenience. Thanks for the "tip"
Yes, Ion wind should and will change direction with AC frequency, be it capacitive or induction discharge. If we use inductive discharge, it look very obvious, ion wind direction should change, because in theory DC current can't flow from the secondary of a transformer all the time, as I know. We must note, in inductive discharge case, when the amplitude rising on the secondary, there is still a magnetic field in the primary, which will determine the direction of the resultant electric and magnetic field on the secondary.However, the amplitude will rise again in the secondary, when the primary magnetic field starting to collapse, which will result an electric field again, which direction could be manipulated, hence there are no more magnetic field in the primary, which will determine that. (with ferromagnetic core in the transformer that's not the case)
It look like to me there are ways to achieve conditions, when the resultant magnetic field and current direction, will not reverse at all. The magnetic field will cork screwing around the wire, and never reverse. The wave constantly moving in one direction, all the nodes, anti nodes moving away from any reference point, which you choose at any point of the circuit.
An interesting document (http://www.vacuumlab.com/Articles/Creating%20A%20Vacuum.pdf) gives insight into the complexities of achieving "vaccuum".
.99
You want me to assume everybody has got a pump and the needed materials to create a high vacuum OR do you want me to keep things simple?
In the first case i can post entire pages about how i did what to discover that nobody is picking up because it seems too difficult.
In the second case i present easy to check test results which anybody can verify without too much effort.
@Chef
The reason the magnetic field stays the same lies in the design of the output electrode.
There is a theory as to why it happens:
Theory:
The electric charge on a conductor rests entirely on the outside surface.
Moreover, electric charge tends to concentrate more heavily on sharp points and edges than on broad surfaces.
Because this is so, the electric field near a sharp point on a conductor is stronger than near a broad surface.
Sometimes this field can be so strong that it ionizes the air about the tip.
The tip then attracts and neutralizes ions that have an opposite charge as that of the conductor.
In addition, the tip repels like-charged ions.
This repulsion of ions creates an electric "wind" that emanates from the tip.
So this thing can be concidered some sort of open air "Plasma-rectifier" that is splitting the positive.
:)
Quote from: Microcontroller on 2010.12.20, 20:45:50
The reason the magnetic field stays the same lies in the design of the output electrode.
There is a theory as to why it happens:
You could have any type of electrode at the ends of a secondary transformer, if the direction of the electric field changing in the transformer. Same with capacitative discharge, direction will change, if you flip the polarity.
Or you want to tell me, doesn't matter how I connect a charged HV cap across a gas discharge tube,when the discharge happen, the magnetic field direction will be the same? I really don't think so, but sure, I could be wrong.
You are not getting the point Chef.
I'm not talking about gas discharge tubes.
I am talking about open air ionization.
This involves stripping air molecules.
The tube was only directed at poynt since he had to ask.
:)
Another intresting point is that when the flow is directed to a grounded plate and there is a voltmeter in between, Earth shows up as being Positive.
Well thank you for sharing that....it is appreciated and very interesting especially the ground as positive.
Does the ground show as positive regardless of DC polarity of corona or AC drive? That would be something new.
I know that a strong positive corona will cool a metal plate that is heated, sucking off electrons.
Can't wait to test this out.
Here is something a little different, but also might be of interest.
http://sparkbangbuzz.com/corona-osc/corona-osc.htm
Well i can't wait to see your results.
Pherhaps i did switch in some diodes somewhere.
I performed these tests long time ago and i did many.
I remember there was "Something" there.
Also note that the flow is conductive.
When it comes close to the terminals of a charged cap it will discharge violently using the plasma as pathway..
Quote from: ION on 2010.12.20, 21:29:49
...
Here is something a little different, but also might be of interest.
http://sparkbangbuzz.com/corona-osc/corona-osc.htm
Yes, it is quite interesting. An unusual relaxation oscillator
configuration.
There is an "RC" time constant which affects the frequency
of the "discharge" pulses developed across the 1.0 K
resistor. Can you see "it?"
Quote from: Microcontroller on 2010.12.20, 22:04:23
...
Also note that the flow is conductive.
When it comes close to the terminals of a charged cap it will discharge violently using the plasma as pathway..
This presents very interesting potential possibilities.
Could this be used as a "trigger" for the discharge of a capacitor
into a "Plasma Ignition System" type of spark plug for the
internal combustion engine?
Experimentation will be necessary to determine the time delay
characteristics and also to design an appropriate spark plug
with two insulated terminals: one for the initiating high voltage
"trigger" input
and
a second for the 400 Volt (or greater) capacitive discharge
"plasma" input.
Perhaps this technique has already been tested and evaluated?
Yes i believe this is what happens in the so called water spark plug.
The loud explosive noise comes from the sudden discharge of the remaining energy from the cap into the spark.
But this is all on a side road.
Another and very important note is that the ion wind flow happens in open air and that it is not bound to any metal conductor like in classic circuitry with wires as the energy guiding pathway.
This is important for several reasons like speed and resistance and it is a big difference with what most guy's are used to.
I will try to continue with small posts covering one what i call "element" at a time.
:)
Quote from: Microcontroller on 2010.12.21, 05:20:47
...
Another and very important note is that the ion wind flow happens in open air and that it is not bound to any metal conductor like in classic circuitry with wires as the energy guiding pathway.
This is important for several reasons like speed and resistance and it is a big difference with what most guy's are used to.
I will try to continue with small posts covering one what i call "element" at a time.
:)
Very true! The "ion wind" is capable of carrying charge
some considerable distance from the "emitter."
electric field in motion
you can call it displacement current if it makes it more palatable
put another force field perpendicular and increase induced current.
Didn't someone on this forum, earlier this year, post about a small company that etched metal from a short distance using directed charge?
The process information said no connection to the workpiece was required, like a ground cable on a welding machine hookup.
This info was related to a mercury vapor vacuum tube (really small) used as a single element NRO.
If I remember correctly, no air was required. There was no Ion wind for that process.
So how can it be that the magnetic responce in space is always the same?
Well it turns out it is the design of the emitting electrode that is responsible for this effect.
The Ion Wind is always moving in the same direction when it leaves the electrode.
This ties into the work of T.H Moray back in 1920.
If you turn this into a circuit ,it does not matter what you put in all the energy that's available will be accellerated in one direction every tiny bit of it will add to the total sum and this methode allows you to extract or rectify randomness or chaos and so on.
Normally the total sum is zero because A cancels out B in the most simple example.
In our case here we neutralize A so we are only left with B
And that energy is forced through the circuit before it can return.
:)
Edit: Removed some noise.
Quote from: Microcontroller on 2010.12.20, 18:03:21
That's not where i'm heading here.
This is just about a sharp tip that is connected to a high voltage source.
It will spew out ion wind and there will be a magnetic response in free space.
That alone say's alot about the orgin of the magnetic field but i leave it up to you to draw those conclusions.
Anyway this paticular ion wind setup generates the same magnetic field regardless of the polarity of the power supply.
Simpel said this means the magnetic field is always the same no matter what you put in.
If you put in DC and switch polarity the magnetic field stays the same.
If you put in high frequency AC the magnetic field stays the same.
:)
How did you determine that the magnetic field is always the same?
that is not important Grumpy.
If you want to ask questions, ask good ones.
I used a magnet on a string as well as the o'l compass.
While feeding the thing 35.000 Hertz if your intrested in some detailes.
:)
Quote from: Microcontroller on 2010.12.23, 21:02:09
that is not important Grumpy.
If you want to ask questions, ask good ones.
I used a magnet on a string as well as the o'l compass.
While feeding the thing 35.000 Hertz if your intrested in some detailes.
:)
It is a very good question, and leads to another one, equally as important.
What is the orientation of the detected field?
Do some tests and you shall know.
This is only the beginning and i will only continue when i think it will be usefull.(so not wasting my time)
:)
Quote from: Microcontroller on 2010.12.24, 07:10:24
Do some tests and you shall know.
This is only the beginning and i will only continue when i think it will be usefull.(so not wasting my time)
:)
I did several test over a course of two years. I even had a short video that showed the results. Lost that file, but someone might have saved it. You won't find it on YouTube, that is for sure.
You say you have a method that produces a magnetic field that is always in the same direction regardless of the applied signal polarity.
What is the orientation of the detected magnetic field?
Quote from: Microcontroller on 2010.12.24, 07:13:40
This was a place where i made a start sharing my results, but certain people think they know better so i will just let them explain my test results.
Intresting thing is that they do not even seem to have any idea as to where i am with my experiments nor do i get the impression they actually know what is going on yet they do see that i am missing things so again i will let them explain to the rest my test results.
2bad
Well, Marco, acting in perfect "marco form", you deleted the whole thread and posted some arbitrary BS in it's place.
I called you several times on the magnetic field orientation, no answer was ever provided. Ample BS was given, and the pressure proved to be too much for some people.
As for where he was "headed": I do not care at all.
The fact that you do not even know what you missed or what you misinterpreted leads me to think that you would like me to "do the work for you". Well it is Christmas, and I did post these results before.
Despite our different views and actions, I like you Marco. You got the fire in your heart, and by that I know that you are a good person. (yeah I stole the fire in the heart stuff from "The Road".)
If you have an ion wind then you have HV. Add your compass, which is a conductive magnetized needle.
The conductor will align to the electric field despite the fact that is it magnetized. It will rotate in the direct that is shortest, in strict order with the conservation of energy. (or is that the law of least action? Was that one of Weber's Laws?) If you run the flow of ions through the compass, the it will align to the flow, which is the direction of the conductor. You may think that the compass aligns to the Poynting Vector but hold it near the power supply and it does not point toward it, or away from it. It does point to the load, but this is not definitive.
Now, if you used a magnet on a string, the you would have noticed that the magnet moves towards the source of the ions. This is strictly following the laws of electrostatic induction, with the caveat that a pulsed field is much stronger than a static field. (HINT HINT) So, your comment on pulsed coils is also false.
A changing electric field is the way!
You can use magnetic fields, but you have to run them so damn fast that things get freaky. A changing magnetic field creates a changing electric field, but the electric field can change much faster than the magnetic field ever can, and it is easier to create.
So, where is this going?
Here is the deal, and you can deny it, you can argue against it, you can try to bury it, but it is the truth as I see it!
A changing electric field (or moving E-field), which is a traveling wave, which causes a displacement current will induce a current in a conductor by dragging the electrons along with it. Rather than finding another source of energy, or adding more energy to the system, we have instead found another means of induction that was right in front of us the whole time and entirely overlooked.
This means is "cumulative" and better yet, can be accentuated by addition of an external force field of force perpendicular to the moving electric field, which increase the current by increasing the precession of electrons. There are no other explanations, theories, discussions, or Bullshit! This is what SM tried to convey, what spherics tried to convey, and what many others discovered but did not understand.
(edited out the provocative and bad stuff)
Grumpy, you deleted a thread of 5 or 6 pages! :(
No more deletions please! This keeps happening and certain members will lose their "editing" permissions.
Please "clean up" the above post a little Grumps, thanks.
I don't need this extra work guys :D
Now, I am going to restore most of those deleted posts.
.99
I'm on board Grumpy. One of the things I like about you is that you do not withhold information, are always willing to share as much as possible instead of dribbling it out in little cryptic clues. O0
@Grumpy
QuoteIf you have an ion wind then you have HV. Add your compass, which is a conductive magnetized needle.
The conductor will align to the electric field despite the fact that is it magnetized. It will rotate in the direct that is shortest, in strict order with the conservation of energy. (or is that the law of least action? Was that one of Weber's Laws?) If you run the flow of ions through the compass, the it will align to the flow, which is the direction of the conductor. You may think that the compass aligns to the Poynting Vector but hold it near the power supply and it does not point toward it, or away from it.
I would agree and have verified this fact many times, as well I am a big fan of who I still call the "masters"-- Faraday, Ampere, Weber, Tesla and Steinmetz. You know when I read the original works of these great men and I look around at the world we have created I cannot help but feel we have missed the boat somehow. There is this feeling that we had an opportunity, a moment in time, where we had all the information we needed to do great things but we chose a different path. Good, honest and responsible men decided the most practical route to solve our energy problems was magnetic induction but in the process I cannot help but feel we lost something in making this choice. Personally I have made the choice not to participate in this nonsense of trying to whirl magnets past coils of wire in an effort to generate electricity anymore as it has no future, that is the past, and I think our future will revolve around something we knew over one hundred years ago -- electrostatics.
QuoteA changing electric field (or moving E-field), which is a traveling wave, which causes a displacement current will induce a current in a conductor by dragging the electrons along with it. Rather than finding another source of energy, or adding more energy to the system, we have instead found another means of induction that was right in front of us the whole time and entirely overlooked.
Again I would agree as I have seen it in action and when you do actually see it in action there will be no mistaking what it is or what has happened. My first experience with this was a few years ago when my small low power/low voltage parametric circuit started blowing 10 watt light bulbs, I do not mean the tungsten filament was broken I mean the filament was no longer present as it had vaporized. It did not take a rocket scientist to figure out that there was very little capacitance or inductance in which any amount of energy could be stored to produce such an effect and the source input itself simply did not have the means to produce this effect. Then I did something really stupid, I set the circuit aside and continued with my other projects and later scavenged parts from the original circuit, lol. As you can imagine a month later when I returned to the circuit nothing worked as it did before and I did not have the common sense to draw the circuit and its geometry out on paper, an amateur's mistake. However in the end I think it was a good mistake as I was forced to understand how and why it happened and it also forced me to return to the basics of what electricity, magnetism and gravity are fundamentally. In any case I think all of us already know our present way of generating electrical energy through magnetic induction has no future, it is not that it does not work perfectly well it is just that it has no future, it is the past.
Regards
AC
Quote from: allcanadian on 2010.12.26, 16:01:13
@GrumpyI would agree and have verified this fact many times, as well I am a big fan of who I still call the "masters"-- Faraday, Ampere, Weber, Tesla and Steinmetz. You know when I read the original works of these great men and I look around at the world we have created I cannot help but feel we have missed the boat somehow. There is this feeling that we had an opportunity, a moment in time, where we had all the information we needed to do great things but we chose a different path. Good, honest and responsible men decided the most practical route to solve our energy problems was magnetic induction but in the process I cannot help but feel we lost something in making this choice. Personally I have made the choice not to participate in this nonsense of trying to whirl magnets past coils of wire in an effort to generate electricity anymore as it has no future, that is the past, and I think our future will revolve around something we knew over one hundred years ago -- electrostatics.
Again I would agree as I have seen it in action and when you do actually see it in action there will be no mistaking what it is or what has happened. My first experience with this was a few years ago when my small low power/low voltage parametric circuit started blowing 10 watt light bulbs, I do not mean the tungsten filament was broken I mean the filament was no longer present as it had vaporized. It did not take a rocket scientist to figure out that there was very little capacitance or inductance in which any amount of energy could be stored to produce such an effect and the source input itself simply did not have the means to produce this effect. Then I did something really stupid, I set the circuit aside and continued with my other projects and later scavenged parts from the original circuit, lol. As you can imagine a month later when I returned to the circuit nothing worked as it did before and I did not have the common sense to draw the circuit and its geometry out on paper, an amateur's mistake. However in the end I think it was a good mistake as I was forced to understand how and why it happened and it also forced me to return to the basics of what electricity, magnetism and gravity are fundamentally. In any case I think all of us already know our present way of generating electrical energy through magnetic induction has no future, it is not that it does not work perfectly well it is just that it has no future, it is the past.
Regards
AC
Of the many ways you may not like what I have to say now and then AC, there is an area that we are in complete agreement and harmony....especially the bold parts of your above post.
In this we are kindred spirits. O0
Referring to the initial post,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W7nuYreMMU
I didn't have headphones with which to listen to any narrative, but the video should illustrate my question:
Is this a hardware presentation of you're writing about? There are certainly schematics on the 'Web and in the American Patent database, as well, to look at.
--Lee