Something i have been playing with just recently, but i have reached a point where my laptop scope crashes.
I built a toroidal form coil wound with bifilar wire all the way around, 1 of these is joined at the ends to form an endless coil the other is broken and has the yellow trace scope probe connected, i also wound a single wire at each 180 degree position on the toroid to drive the endless coil with.
I also wound some bifilar around the periphery of the toroidal form and this is connected to me green trace.
I have found a frequency where the input current does not go up much but the output of each trace goes massive, as soon as this happens my scope/laptop crashes out, i reach this point by varying the phase delay between the driven coils, it's as if the whole thing goes into some sort of oscillation.
Either there's something strange going on with the equipment or there's over a 500V on the green trace which is 90 degree coupled to the endless coil.
The scope shot is whats left on the screen when the laptop stops responding.
Good stuff Peter.
Seems you've been able to reproduce something similar to what you had before ;)
.99
OK managed to get a FFT shot at crash
Is there any chance this could be radiating some distance C.C
Hi Darren
Yeah but the difference is that each phase driven coil is placed 180 Degrees around the toroid, and i am not drawing over 100mA for the drive power
Sounds like you need to get some distance and/or shielding for your PC, and possibly the scope too.
Then put a load on that puppy >:-)
What's your supply voltage now?
50V supply
Yep will load it up next ;)
I have placed a 2 watt carbon 47 Ohm resistor across both monitored coils, and only momentarily captured a FFT, i have only been able to get it to go unstable once so far, either the frequency has changed slightly or the phase shift is much more critical or i have damaged something.
Not sure right now.
Is there anyway of guesstimating power dissipation from the FFT i have attached.
Good work Peterae
The shorted winding is where the DC might circulate (should you get an induced DC current and get it circulating) and is possibly how SM gets his heating effect. I believe he may have picked off the DC component at 180 degree points of this winding. "Induction" of this sort, and I use the word very loosely, is not possible with normal transformer action as the result is always a null DC component once the system settles.
It is strange that you are getting such large output. The shorted adjacent bifilar wind should have clamped the output. Although your explanation of the winds is clear, it would be helpful if you could go back and annotate that original drawing with some text and arrows. I can see the horizontal outer winds. Are there any horizontal inner windings?
Try a very light load on the open ends of the large winding to see if will tame it a bit, probably 20k to 100k although you might not want to tame it, rather lightly couple it to the input windings. That will soak up and regenerate some of the energy.
As for the power dissipation in the 47 ohm, the temperature rise is a good rough indication of power and easy to compare to known heating from the same resistor hooked to your power supply. I would use a 1/4 watt if the heating is very small.
Thanks for sharing your work.
QuoteIt is strange that you are getting such large output. The shorted adjacent bifilar wind should have clamped the output. Although your explanation of the winds is clear, it would be helpful if you could go back and annotate that original drawing with some text and arrows. I can see the horizontal outer winds. Are there any horizontal inner windings?
Interestingly the yellow trace in across the other bifilar winding thats shorted to form the endless coil and it show huge DC Pulses.
I will draw up a diagram of whats goes where with direction.
There is only the outside horizontal winding.
PS i have backed up a step and taken the resistors off and still cannot get it to perform, maybe some damage to the fet stage.
Peterae
If you get a chance try to document what you have done with a simple schematic. This can convey an awful lot of information if properly annotated. Then some of us can try to replicate.
If you saw huge DC pulses you may be on to something very important.
If you go up above and check out the yellow trace, you will see the scope switched to DC coupling and that the yellow trace is 0v to off the screen. at least 300V pulses.
There is really very little special about the setup.
I first made a toroid by laminating lengths of artists mount board(Card) around a paint pot using plastic packing tape to tape each piece onto the perimeter, i kept adding pieces to get the 1 inch thickness of the wall, the final measurements were OD = 8 Inches height = 4 Inches and wall thickness 1 Inch. The whole thing was wrapped in packaging tape(Could be a Dielectric layer i guess also).
I then took 1mm single core flat twin wire and wound about 110 turns 360 degree's around the toroid and connected 1 coil end to end, and left the other open for scope connection(Chan 2 Yellow Trace)
I then wound 2 coils 180 degree's apart each side of the toroid about 20 turns each and used these 2 as my drive coils, a diode UF4007 was placed across each coil and the 50V positive supply was connected to both coils, the other end of each coil/diode was connected to a fet stage to be switched to ground.
For coil winding direction see diagram attached.
Around the periphery i wound 4 loops of 1mm flat twin bell wire and shorted each end to form a 2 strand single coil.(Connected to Chan 1 Green Trace).
The 2 Drive coils could be phase delayed from 0nS to 1350nS most of the burst appeared about 480nS @ 683KHz although other phase delays did also cause the oscillation to appear.
Just to confirm incase i made a mistake, the endless coil is definatley endless, in other words i have connected the correct ends together , the resistance of the wire is 1.5 Ohms in the one thats monitored and not shorted.
If you are touching on another form of induction, then adding an independent force in the direction of the output winding will increase the drift velocity and the current. Rotation is one way to do this. Another is to use thousands of vertical wires, soldered and connected at the top and bottom so that the current flows downward. Then gravity would help you out.
Try a small bulb on the output and vary the rates to see what happens.
OK it would appear when i loaded the horizontal and other endless coil with 47 Ohm resistors when the event occurred it has knocked out 1 channel of the controller fet stage.
I Will try for a rebuild tomorrow.
Also although the laptop is running from a battery i think it's probably the usb noise from the Scope that's knocking it out, i have not really seen this much before, in previous phase experiments with other coils it was the controller that was crashing.
Large Air core Toroid
We experimented with large air core toroids in July 2010 as seen in reply 456 of:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8825.msg248749#msg248749
It can be a very promising area of research. Dr. Raymond Ting focused his effort and attention on such devices. I believe that he is working with a group in China first recommended by Rasa. That China Group has funding and has access to two Universities. Dr. Raymond Ting is a member of the Hong Kong Invention Association and a verifier of new inventions for the Chinese Government.
Continue the great work. I believe it is a matter of resonance hunting again. Until we nailed it down to a solid science, the experiments will be a sort of hit and miss. Have your camera ready at all times. Capture the strange things when they occur. It is not always possible to reproduce the same conditions.
Good luck and have fun,
Lawrence
Peterae, here is what I understand from your description in schematic form. I will update or correct it per your instructions.
ION thankyou for the schematic.
You are correct although you show L3 and L4 as separate coils they are laid down side by side bifilar fashion. and the same for L5 & L6
L5 & L6 also had a 47 Ohm across them when it blew a fet stage.
I only managed to capture one FFT Shot with the 47 Ohm Resistors connected all previous shots and waveforms were without any resistor loading.
Protect your usb scope. I toasted mine with the same type of results.
Something else i always have to remind myself is the fact the scope probe earths are connected together at the scope end so in this case i also had one end of L4 connected together with one end of L5/L6.
It's a shame you cannot draw the endless coil L3/L4 as a 360 degree coil because L1 and L2 are coupled to part of L3/L4
and then it would be possible to associate the coil's connected polarity.
A note of how i found what happened.It was a bit of a fluke really LOL
I wound the drive frequency up until the pulse ringing joined the start of the next pulse, then tried varying the phase, i was getting small low volts induction on the output coils, and then all of a sudden when a certain phase was hit the amplitude went 10 fold and the input current went only just slightly higher, at this point the Laptop would crash out.
Thanks GK yeah this has always been a worry experimenting like this.
For rough testing at the beginning and when large transients are expected, it's hard to kill an old tube scope from Tektronix. Otherwise just use "sniffer" coils on your scope input and no direct connection to your DUT.
Hard to watch that sensitive equipment...computers, USB scopes, and even bench type solid state scopes get destroyed.
Sometimes its difficult to make a schematic conform to actual layout. I'll see if there is another way to draw the schematic.
Thanks ION
I will try to do a hand sketch tomorrow which will try to show it diagrammatically.
I am now wondering if i should fire up the dual channel Whitenoise generator, if it's a matter of correct frequency and phase i should see a big pulse on the output once in a while.
The thing i cannot get my head around is that coil 1 fires pulses clockwise around the endless coil and drive coil 2 fires pulses anti clockwise so how can i have DC pulses running through the endless coil.
And how can i have such high voltage and the horizontal coil.
OK something else i noticed i had done when i placed 47Ohm resistors across the closed bifilar's other winding was i put the scope earth lead on the opposite end,I am guessing this has either caused the fet failure or altered the effect enough to blow a fet stage.
Thankfully i took photo's in the early stages for reference.
I have now fixed the faulty fet stage, so far tried setting the controller up as before and cannot get the effect to occur :'(
I will keep trying, i have tried to layout the wires in the same positions just in case.
OK i have weird things happening now, I found There seems to be a frequency and phase combination that lights a 240VAC 5 Watt bulb dimly connected to the 4 turn coil around the periphery, if i alter the drive frequency then i have to relocate the phase to get it to light.
The weird things that have been happening are strange low hertz buzzing from somewhere near the coil, i don't seem to be able to pin point the noise, and my scope is occasionally doing the strange waveforms, but when the scope shows the waveform the bulb does not get any brighter, if i disconnect the usb lead to my battery powered laptop the bulb get's just slightly dimmer, if i disconnect any of the scope BNC's from the scope the bulb goes out.
I cannot rule out that the scope trace is showing garbage, although before when i first discovered the effect and took the shot up the top of the page the scope screen was changing in time while showing High peak voltages.
grounding through the scope?
Try an earth ground to the ring.
Peterae....a couple of observations and precautionary measures:
Your driven coils have very low inductance, probably less than 100uH, as such you need to insure that the driving pulse width is extremely narrow or you will generate excessively high peak currents and any glitch from your generator source will fry the FET's.
With such available noise and EMI in the vicinity of your pulse generator, there is a possibility it could glitch and restart, possibly causing a wider pulse delivered to the FET's cooking them. I recommend some small lamps or resistors to limit the current or set the current limit feature on your power supply to a low value.
Your diodes look like they are twisted to the windings but not soldered. If these diodes lose connection for an instant, the flyback pulse can be rather high exceeding the FET voltage rating, possibly breaking down the FET.
As always, I recommend a 10 volt Zener from gate to source to clamp any EMI induced energy and keep it from breaking down the gate.
Thanks for the advice ION, we are running ok at the moment, the pulses are about 100nS wide after rise and fall delays in the fet and driver.
@ G the scope is not earthed nor is the laptop it's running from a battery.
Interestingly i can stop that light bulb from lighting by touching one side of it with my hand.
I like the infinite loop approach, and coupling to it from both ends with short pulses.
We know from EMI board design rules that pulses running in parallel traces couple to each other.
Now, DC pulses injected will induce DC pulses in the adjacent infinite loop, traveling in opposite directions.
The right frequency will cause resonance and huge DC pulse buildup.
I would suggest adding 10 ohm series resistors to the FET drains, for some impedance matching and safety.
Also, like ION suggested, protect the FET gates with Zener diodes.
Don't think only unipolarity, but consider what would happen if the Drain went to -300V while your Gate is at ground potential, think about it.
Peter:
I have a few suggestions for your consideration. I am assuming that you have a main drive coil and then the other coils are considered secondaries.
If you have a signal generator then put a pure sine wave into the main drive coil and then observe the outputs on your secondary coils. You can change the frequency and you can also experiment with different resistive loads on your secondary coils. Sweeping the frequency will give you an idea of the frequency roll-off in the secondary coils. Changing the load resistors will give you an idea about the power coupling between the drive coil and the secondary coils.
Then switch your signal generator over to square waves and experiment some more. When the square wave frequency is low enough you will see on the secondary coils a kind of double-spike where each spike has an exponential decay. You can try seeing what happens with different load resistors here also. It's actually possible to measure how much energy can be transferred between the main drive coil and the secondary coils like this.
If you do this, at least you will have a sense of how the coupling looks like between the drive coil and the secondary coils in terms of frequency response, phase, and coupling. You don't have to get too fancy here or make any precise measurements like I alluded to. Rather, the idea is to get an innate sense of how it functions through basic experimentation first.
Once you do that then go crazy with your nanosecond pulse generator and stuff like that. The simple testing should help you understand the results you get with the pulse generator testing. The most important idea is to start simple and then get more complicated afterward.
MileHigh
Cheers EM i have diodes across the coil and fet drain/source which would hopefully stop any negative swing across the fet.
I am really annoyed i have not been able to recreate the exact effect i had yesterday, i am left with doubt in my mind that the scope was telling the truth about the large pulses and dc offset, i have only seen that once today and that was with the laptop cashed out, which could mean the scope was feeding duff data to the laptop from trace drawing at the point it crashed, at the moment i need to dismiss any scope shots, and maybe pull out my old bench scope(although this is earthed)
I currently believe yesterdays effect is a combination of many parameters, wire positions, lengths, even the scope probes and laptop connection seem to be involved, phase and frequency, although the laptop and scope are powered i fail to see how any energy could be transferred into the system that i was seeing yesterday.
I'll add a little addendum:
To really understand what's going on here you need to put one channel of your scope on the source signal that's going into your main drive coil and the second channel of your scope on whatever other signal that you want to look at. It is of prime importance to look at your output signals relative to your input signal.
I often say this: You get 10 times more information from looking at two simultaneous traces on your scope display as compared to looking at just a single trace. You have to see and understand the timing relationship between your input signal and your output signals.
MileHigh
the setup above MH works by sending 2 very fast short pulses around an endless coil, and then delaying the phase between them by 0-1350nS, the 2 pulses are independent from each other so i have 2 drive coils each is wound on each side of the toroid.
So really the output is a result of resonance, phase of the 2 inputs and drive frequency, i don't really need to monitor the 2 drives as i know exactly what they are doing, as in pulsing with a time delay between them.
The output result in the endless coil is complex and has very little resemblance of the drive pulses, on top of that one of the output coils is wound 90 degrees from the drive coils so conventional induction has little to play, it's not so much a case of trying to predict whats going to happen, but more or less a matter of looking for anomalies on the output coils, which is what i thought i had found yesterday and then looking closer to try and understand it, i am trying to move away from convention and discover new things.
touch the coil and tell me if it tingles
I think the looping coils are generating much higher frequency then your applied frequency because they will start to slightly overlap and perpetuate inside the loop. That increased frequency can cause re-coupling backwards inside the driving coil and cause a reverse action on your diode inside the fet. I have seen this recently with voltage rising very high.
wattsup
Quotetouch the coil and tell me if it tingles
Not a good idea!
Get a guppy fish in a small bowl and watch to see if the fish swims frantic or tries to get away. Or use small pet birds, flys or bees.
Put a small neomag wrapped loosely in tinfoil on a wooden stick. Move it in and out of the coil vicinity. Watch your dog perk up or shy away.
Or wad up a bundle of 6" long of 30awg wire with a 1 foot lead. On the end of the lead put a Hall effect sensor to a scope. Bring the wire bundle end in the vicinity of the coil. Look at the scope.
Or just tell us about the nuclear headaches the day after! :'( >:-) :o O0 That warm feeling is the cooking of the microwavable synapses.
Quote from: wattsup on 2011.02.07, 13:04:30
I think the looping coils are generating much higher frequency then your applied frequency because they will start to slightly overlap and perpetuate inside the loop. That increased frequency can cause re-coupling backwards inside the driving coil and cause a reverse action on your diode inside the fet. I have seen this recently with voltage rising very high.
wattsup
Exactly. This it what caused the 12mhz out from the 43khz input in my Cu, Steel coil resonate test. This is the start of the feedback loop. Not current but EM.