Some pic's!
http://www.samsonium.org/sites/default/files/P1020230.JPG
http://www.samsonium.org/sites/default/files/P1020231.JPG
http://www.samsonium.org/sites/default/files/P1020232.JPG
http://www.samsonium.org/sites/default/files/P1020233.JPG
http://www.samsonium.org/sites/default/files/P1020240.JPG
http://www.samsonium.org/sites/default/files/P1020241.JPG
http://www.samsonium.org/sites/default/files/P1020238.JPG
http://www.samsonium.org/sites/default/files/P1020242.JPG
http://www.samsonium.org/sites/default/files/P1020241.JPG
http://www.samsonium.org/sites/default/files/P1030244.JPG
http://www.samsonium.org/sites/default/files/P1050245.JPG
http://www.samsonium.org/sites/default/files/P1050246.JPG
http://www.samsonium.org/sites/default/files/PC260227.JPG
Here is his first post and Winding post
I have contacted Stefan and he confirmed that a working TPU can win the prize. Please everybody avoid flame in this topic.
@Stefan, I have found the answers for the issue I mentioned in my email last night (or morning?). Please move it in the appropriate one as it seems to be locked right now. Many thanks.
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I, Anthony Sprader claim that I have succesfully replicated/reverse engineered the torroidal performance multiplier transformer device (TPMT, formerly referred TPU) presented by Steven Mark.
The device itself is a combination of a low frequency switching power supply in kHz range and electron accelerator that provides more electrical power and current than the primary side receives.
The cause of the significantly higher drained electrical performance is that the primary coil has a diagonal long step winding technique that causes rotating magnetic field flow along side the secondary coil. The output electrical current is a sum of two different type of current. The first is created via conventional electromagnetic induction by the primary coil and has normal hole and electron flow components while the gained electrical current is a spontanous electron flow without hole counterparts.
Due to the unusual nature of the gained electricity the majority appears on the closest PN semiconductor rather than the load where electrons can find they hole counter parts trapped between the PN layers. The closest PN semiconductor is usually the switching transistor component on the primer side. The higher primary input causes exponentially higher hole and electron imbalance in the primary driving coil thus the heat loss is also increasing exponentially between the switching PN layers.
Therefore there are several possible ways to decrease the amount of impacted electrons on the PN switching device.
1. Decreasing the input performance and duty cycle to decrease the exponential hole and electron imbalance and increase the efficiency by using TPMT devices in multiple stages to boost the output. (presently it needs 2 stages min. to power a 250V 50W light bulb on 190V)
2. Using multiple primary coils and switching them after each other to rest the PN layers on each switching channel. (e.g. Johnson-counter and several oversized IGBTs or FETs)
3. Avoiding the use of PN switching devices.
In case of winning the majority of the prize would support further developments of the technology to comply requirements of mass production.
(Please read the email below with the description I sent to Stefan this morning and disregard the typos as it was very late. Photos and vids are coming.)
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> how I could send you back the test device, when the test time is over or would you like to donate the device to me ?
Yes of course I have already made a coil for you yesterday that naturally you can keep. The one I mentioned puts out 190V to the 50W for ~30 seconds before you can smell the plastic on it, so it's a bit below 50W and since I don't have light bulb for 1W handy at the moment to verify the requirements I decided to build a larger device for you that comfortably supply usable energy. Before I send it I will also video it and upload it to my youtube channel.
> a 9 Volts Battery would be okay, if it runs for days and puts out already 50 Watts.
I wouldn't push the prize with the 9V battery, I just enquired whether I have a chance with a device that not I invented firstly (replica/reverse-engineering) to win th OUP as I need to put more money in research to refine the device, make it smaller, more efficient, safe for mass production, make formulas for sizing and keep the thing simple. I have already spent a few thousand pounds on it over the years. So I just wanted make sure, also I'd like to understand what's happening inside the working models before I apply. I believe in complete work before opening the champaign. :)
Today when I built your device I found that the energy moves in the device is far above 1kW, the only obstacle that it comes out where you would never expect it: it doesn't heat the coil at all, they remain cold but cooks the switching FET on the primary coil nearly instantly. My device works, yours not yet... :D We always learn.
I was driving it with a power supply (0-3A / 0-30V / max. 90W) and switching it with a single IGBT (rated 1200V/74A in pulse and 500W in fully open state) between 5 and 500kHz/50% square waves (I can't remember the freq exactly but it is only important when you put the load on it). When I put the PSU to the max. I saw a big flash after ~3 sec. and the soldering on the mentioned well oversized IGBT's middle pin has molten and released the wire, which was ~1.5mm in diameter and sticked to the next pin to it. That should be an enormous amount of power couldn't appear in the secondary coil and naturally impossible to do it with a 90W input.
> Does it only depend on special coil configurations or do you use also magnets in it ?
Yes and no. Magnet is not necessary but the coil winding is very important and as I noticed so far this is where one of the key secret is. I use a "triangular" winding technique for the primary that seems to be vital. I worked out this technique while I was playing with the Rodin coil (that could be good for primary with one coil and large spaces) and I was thinking how the current flows in it. It flows in a cicular pattern and after it takes the ~360 degrees it comes in the next to it and doing it over and over again until leaves the coil. I remembered when I started the TPU research I had coil that worked but I have successfully caused a thousand pound damage in my lab during the research and I couldn't work for nearly a year on it. 8-10 months later when I've bought the new instruments I didn't remember clearly which coil worked how I connected them, but a couple of days ago a guy posted a schematic and I had a dejavu. Something told me that I have seen this technique before which is almost identical to what I was doing. I digged out that coil from the crate, connected it and the signal was what I expected. Then I took a look at SM's naked coil with the magnet but this time on the JD released vids and it clicked in when I saw the winding on the rim. "That is the one! I know now why I did it this way back then!" The winding pattern is the same as you would wind a Rodin coil but not necessary to stick to the 150-degree-step (mine is wound with 60 and actually this is another thing that I want to verify which is the best). So you go around with long steps, leave well enough space and when you're done with one circle you simply continue and lay the next wire in the space of the previous circle. You repeat this technique as long as you want, but (I think) you need to do min 2 circles (later need to be verified again).
I give you details on the first working device (which performs far better than the second one :D ):
to replicate it you'd need these things:
- Paper mailing tube, 80mm in diameter, 70mm long and 2mm thick wall
- 0.38mm for primary (I wouldn't use it again, need a thicker min 0.74mm)
- 0.74mm for secondary (same issue, not thick enough, min 1mm)
Both of the wires are regular enamelled solid copper wires used for transformers. (After seeing what I have already seen here I wouldn't be surprised if this device doesn't work with soft wires. I think this is why the current has to struggle to flow in the secondary. Possibility for Litze wire also should be verified later.)
Oversized switching MOSFET/IGBT and large heatsink (for now as this is where the power loves to be built up and not on the load hooked up to the secondary).
This is not important at all, but I use a 9A mosfet driver. That was just handy in the breadboard and I need something to increase the signal as the max output 3.5V of my waveform generator.
Use a knife and cut off the tube and cut in 3 gaps about 1mm deep and 120 degrees to each other on the top and bottom edges, but make 60 degrees offset between the top and bottom sides. So when you look at it they will be in a zig-zag pattern to each other and not above and below. Then you place the primary wire in the 1st gap and keep windind it perpendiculary to the tube. When you're done with the first circle all gaps should be filled with wire. Then you are keep going in this form, but you lay the next circle about 3-5mm to the previous wire.
When you are done with the primary, wind the secondary on it as you would normally do it with e.g. a Tesla coil's secondary. (I did it very tight but later we can try it out with gaps.) I used a tape between the P/S coils to fix the primary. When you look inside your coil it should show a twisted form similar to the Rodin coil and the primary wires are hovering over the tube. An important thing: probably you remember the little guy and the TV that exploded in the 60s that SM mentioned. The coils on the CRT tube are wound in this pattern, this is what I used as a starting point when I made my first device many years ago. (AFAIK this winding pattern is still in use and I think that a part of that energy used in CRTs are not all from the mains.)
Ok, when your coil is ready, hook up the PG, PSU, the FET to the primary coil and scope to the input and output. Do it without load on the secondary! Set the PG to 50% square wave and a low frequency as a start, like 100Hz and slowly increase the power on the PSU. You will see a beautiful DC hump growing. This is only possible if you have a slight rotating magnetic field as the winding with the big spaces have a very low inductance. Basically this device is a transformer with a Rodin coil wound on a tube and a Tesla coil on it. It is a simple as this. :)
Now, put a load on it and find a comfortable duty cycle that your load likes. Increase the frequency and the input. If the load is too big you can fry eggs on the heatsink as all the power will appear on the FET. I think this is because of the nature of that current is different. That is not a normal current flow where you have both holes and electron flow. I think the balance of electrons and holes are not equal. One of them is trying to build up on the PN transision of the FET/IGBT. I don't know yet, it also should be investigated.
> Does it use any bifilar coils, where the inductance cancels each other from the 2 parellel wires and uses high frequency for standing wave effects?
No, it doesn't need anything like that.
> On what frequencies does it work ?
Not critical, depending on your load. It is nothing but a performance multiplier transformer where the output is the sum of the input and the extracted energy. You can use it in a wide range from 100Hz to 1MHz if you have a well shielded room as there is radio broadcasting in the higher frequency ranges and at that power you can disturb it.
> Do you also need 3 driver frequencies ?
No but it would be easier to distribute the heat and rest the FETs. If you shoot multiple channels in series as I said in my first post on your site (a year ago or 2) you can decrease the built up electrons or holes (whichever is the case) so they will not pull the current toward the fet and will go in the other way, the load on the secondary.
> I am pretty excited to hear, that somebody really has achieved a selfrunning TPU.
Thanks. :) I am also feeling better as I pay 100 pounds electricity every month to heat my 42 sqm appartment. Now at least I can get warm at the over unity heatsinks powered by a 1.5kW IGBT and hooked up to the screwed up TPU I made for you. :D
> a 9 Volts Battery would be okay, if it runs for days and puts out already 50 Watts. That would be hardly to achieve only with a small 9 Volts battery....
Maybe I have forgotten to tell the 9V think was done by 2 or 3 TPUs in series and the bat was quite hot. Actually I used them as step-up transformes after each other, but rather they would cause drop in the current they increase both the power and current. I think those are not inductors on SM's TPUs, those ar mini TPUs driving the big ones. I looked at his devices again and I understood everything. (when we are over the hard work perhaps I will make some drawings on how his devices work)
The LTPU probably has 2 mini TPUs and the coils are in series on each small TPU, but they are connected not in the usual way and rather having 2 coils on each mini TPU, those are 4 or 8 and the crossing is below the device. The foil cap is perhaps in parallel with the output to smooth the HV spikes. I guess the LTPU has 2 driving channels for heat and peak distribution and for resting the transistors. I noticed that this fenomenon happens when you put the freq two high, also the IGBTs have slower falling edges thus they can trap holes or electrons in an unexpected way.
I used FETs before but if I wanted to make usable power. They simply got a whole over the plastic if I gave them the juice. It doesn't mean that you can't do it with FETs, but with these coils I used you need well oversized swithing circuits. I saw a video with John Bedini and saw one of his kW device and there were several (8?) switching FETs/IGBTs in TO-247 package in parallel configuration to power a single driving coil. The heatsink was the case itself. That relatively small coil didn't look that tough and would not require that. I think he has the same problem with the gained energy, it wants to go toward the closest P/N semiconductor. (before I forget: schottky diodes could be another solution as they work differently, no PN semiconductors)
> You can also start posting the blueprints or just a circuit diagramm first and then add stuff like videos or pictures later.
To be honest some characters are a bit arrogant and I don't feel to comfortable standing on the stage. That is why I contacted you.
Diagrams are trivial, simple switching circuit, the critical is the winding technique.
I attached a few pictures on how the first zig-zag coil was built. The paper tube coil is the working coil, the big one (yellow inside) is the one I built for you, on the picture it is unfinished. That doesnt work.
Possible reasons:
- soft wire for secondary, the profile is not circular as the collected electrons want to move and spin in a helix form
- 2-sided crossing primary coils can cause disturbance in electron flow
- thick insulation on the secondary, therefore bigger the gap between conducting media. Plumbing pipe could be ideal for secondary with thin plastic tape on it for larger devices.
- too many divisions on each circle, should be decreased and verified, 120
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UPDATE
IMPORTANT SAFETY REQUIREMENTS
1. Never feed back the output in the input directly, only by filtering it and take it back before the switching devices as it will extract literally infinite energy and create an extremely high electromagnetic field in the environment. Probably that was the cause of the accident with the TV that SM mentioned killed a 5-year-old child when the electron accelerators coil got an input from another coil that it triggered as secondary (very likely accidentally due to overheating).
2. Separate the primary and secondary units galvanically as the output current is hazardous, also keep that in mind if you connect instruments, like scope on both the primary and secondary coils you will make a common ground through the scope between the two separate circuit.
Winding technique
>>The tube with cuts on both sides<< I did it with 6 on both sides but on the next pic you can see that 3 is enough in "zig-zag"
>>After the first "circle" is done<< you just continue with laying it to the next to the other wire.
>>This is how the the primary coil looks when its done<<. Mind that this is a one channel primary input, so not as efficient than 2 or 3 in an alternating way. Just for feeding my curiousity I made another coil where I didn't cut the wire after finishing, but contiuned to fill the gap between the complete coil. That performed worse than the original one. That is the one I used to drive the main TPU.
Coil hooked up
>>This is how it looks with a few turnes of secondary<<. It is not what it looks like after finishing just found a piece of copper on the workbech and thought I'll try it whether it worths to open another roll. :D Yes it does, you will see that in the next pictures. :) The results are already remarkable only with 3 turns.
>>same thing, a bit sharper photo<<
Instruments without load
>>The input without load on the secondary<< I put the voltage DC source to the max.
>>The output<< Pulsed DC, exactly what we were expecting. :) 64V peaks. Not too much but it isn't bad with 3 turns of secondary.
The load
>>The victim<< 2.2 ohms, 5W resistor, just to be sure... :)
Instruments with load
>>0.02A drop on the input DC<<
>>1/3 peak on the output<<
After a minute operation the resistor became hot, temperature between 40-50C. I don't mention poor 500W IGBTs...
Stefan's coil
>>This is what it looks like after the first round and a bit more<< Mind the number of "zig-zags", I tried it with smaller steps, also used a bit thicker for primary wire and the electrons want to flow in this one, rather than the 250V 30A rated soft wire.
>>The IGBT murder in the circuit<< :)
>>3x500W=1.5kW IGBT's<< in parallel. Still not enough, they would cook in 10 sec if I would leave them running.
My tube coil design
>>This is another design for primary coil<< I made it a few weeks ago and planned to stick a perfectly matching Tesla secondary coil inside the hole. (not in the middle) Also I have an idea to wind a very long coil in the same fashion and place a copper tube as a secondary in the centerline that reaches the primary inside. This is actually a "flatten" or net version of the Rodin coil that you can make any long. My first plan is to drive it as a TPU primary coil. (2 channels). My theory is that you can make a very fast spinning magnetic field that could move the electrons even faster in the conducting medium. It can also be perfect to build very efficient eddy current motor that you can place inside of the wheel of a car. You don't need complicated transmission system and it also drains most of the energy from the ambient.
A REQUEST TO EVERYONE
Please make sure you save and download everything you see and read here. Photos, documents, and the videos and upload them onto P2P networks. Torrent, emule, etc. and preserve this technology, dont let it loose again. Test it and spread it! We dont need another SM who sits on it for decades for prestige or other reasons while millions dying in war on fossils.
Thank you for your kind messages and offers, but I wouldn't like to accept money until we see self-running device, this was my request to Stefan as well.
Ok, Gentleman I gave up to try to sleep and I made new coil. I used the main coil as a base with those small alterations we discussed:
Changes
- 45 degree on the primary angle, that I achieved by cutting shorter tube. The length is now 46mm instead of 70mm.
- I made it a bit tidy, so cut the edge in at every 10 degrees, you will have wire 36 holding gaps on each side. (altogether 72) It makes the winding process 5 minutes on the primary!
- The turnes on the secondary. It was 36 on the completed coil (I didn't post pic on that, only with 3 turn on the same tube) now it is 3 again.
- The gaps between the secondary turns, they were tight now there is 10mm gap. (the most important found)
- The secondary diameter, it was 0.74mm, now 1.40.
What didn't change
- The diameter and wall thickness of the tube (80mm and 2mm).
- The diameter of the primary wire. (0.40mm)
- The materials: solid copper, paper tube.
- My curiosity: still cant sleep. :)
Test environment
Input parameters 500kHz/50% square wave, 31VDC, 0.8A. 3x IGBTs in parallel. Rated 1200V/74A/500W per each.
Conclusions
Positive results
- The output peak became just beautiful. Rises on an exponential curve and symmetrically falls dow. If you make 3 channels of it you will get the "JET-turbine effect" SM said, so we can decrease the input current as well and the IGBT's will not heat as they only need to pile movement on a wire that already has some electron flow triggered by the previous channel.
- RF noise components disappeared after the peak as I wanted, no rectifier bridge needed anymore to clean up the negative range.
- Output peak goes to 153V. No significant drop on it after connecting the 250V/50W halogene light bulb. Only a few volts.
- IGBTs are doing better due to the lack of noise components.
Negative results
- Primary wire is still heating, so time to increase the channels to 3 and change it to a bigger on the next device if still an issue. (The next size I'v got handy is 0.74mm.)
- Voltage is too low to make light on the bulb, so need to increase the secondary turnes and decrease the gaps. e.g fully wound secondary from top to bottom with 2x bigger gaps than the diameter (~3mm).
- Need more spikes to fill the gaps, so the next milestone is the 3 channel and a syncronised driving circuitry. (I have professional equipment with 12 CH pulse generator and an own PC software to create any kind of bit pattern)
Quote from: starcruiser on January 05, 2010, 08:30:49 PM
Is that a left handed wind on the primary I see?
I don't know what handed that is. :) But it only changes the polarity of the secondary.
Quote from: starcruiser on January 05, 2010, 08:30:49 PM
Also have you tried a lesser or greater angle on the primary winds? And if so what did you see?
Yes but I also changed some other parameters as well, so we don't know about the result of it. Now the standard is 45 degree and will remain as it seems perform well. But it is a useful idea, later we can try to change it.
Quote from: Operator on January 05, 2010, 08:44:32 PM
If this is indeed a source of such a huge power then two questions arise:
1. The design is very simple. Why has nobody observed this effect during billions of experiments before? People have successfully developed and applied technology for extracting power from a controlled nuclear chain reaction and missed this simple and clean path? Unbelievable.
The design is naturally very simple and indeed the primary winding technique is still in use within CRT TVs as an electron accelerator. This is what I use it for. :) To find simple things is always difficult.
Quote from: Operator on January 05, 2010, 08:44:32 PM
2. Where the hell the energy comes from? What are we dealing with?
The energy is very likely from cosmic background but I will talk about it in a video lecture as it is not easy to understand in writing. I will have to make charts to make it understandable as it is.
Quote from: Operator on January 05, 2010, 08:44:32 PM
Tomorrow I'll try this design... I just can't believe it until I see the bulb glowing on my table.
I hope so. ;) Keep an eye on the updates as I am trying to make it simpler and cheaper to duplicate.
Quote from: starcruiser on January 05, 2010, 08:50:21 PM
What would happen if it was wound in a right handed manner?
Would change the polarity on the secondary output. :)
Quote from: starcruiser on January 05, 2010, 08:50:21 PM
What would happen or be experienced if one was left handed and another was right handed and those were stacked and inter connected?
I presume that you'd get very bad results. Remember it is not only a switching power supply, but also an electron accelerator. It is a very important thing you have to keep always in mind.
Imagine the secondary as hose pipe where you want to make a liquid flowing. If its in an untidy pile and you open high pressure water on it it's going to wave to the neighbors. :) In our case it would cause unexpected collisions, rather than a smooth flow. In other words you need to make the electron flow as smooth as possible. You can only do it if you avoid primary-primary and secondary-secondary wires crossing or touching each other.
You create this smooth electron flow with the primary is a spinning manner. You spin up the electrons as vortex and yet it will automatically flow much faster and much more electrons you'd expect at a normal transformer.
Quote from: teslaalset on January 05, 2010, 10:30:19 PM
I wonder whether there is any flyback diode used to protect the FET(s) against the large voltage occurring at the drains right after switching off the primary coil....
Naturally not as I want that energy to be harvested on the secondary side and not on the primary PSU. :) So Need to adjust the winding parameters to make the flow in the secondary as smooth as possible.
Quote from: teslaalset on January 05, 2010, 10:30:19 PM
The description of the output power is still vague.
Not really as top IGBTs don't cook from nothing, especially not in 3 sec with molten solder and zinc plating on the back side. (I will post photos of that)
Quote from: teslaalset on January 05, 2010, 10:30:19 PM
It's not said that the output is > 1KW. It says 'it moves > 1KW'. Probably to the switching fet(s), instead of the output.
Yes, presently it is true but I am on it to get that out on the output.
Quote from: teslaalset on January 05, 2010, 10:30:19 PM
I'll have some more patience to see what exactly the input / output configuration is.
My task list is presently so long that probably that will be the last thing we do when I finish the demo device in a few days to Stefan and make it selfrunning.
I just recieved a response to a photo of an agentgates rodin wind.
he said he enjoyed it very much
but it was from a ghost, aparrently ?
Hi L,
From whom?
Spider
I think one of the most curious things about Agentgates coil is the fact that there are so few actual turns involved and hence so few points of high interaction between the primary and the secondary coils. It brings to mind the Caduceous coil, which itself would appear to exhibit some strange properties.
FD,
Glad to see you are with us. No, I haven't changed my ways.
The cad coil is indeed a curiuos thing. Poloidal coils wound on a toroid are said to completely contain the magnetic flux.
To me it seems a cad coil wound as a toroid completely ejects the same flux.
With my crazy view of the electric and magnetic relationship you sqeeze one out and the other fills the void.
I have quite technical reasons for this belief but not something I wish to explain on a cell phone.
Then the only problem is how to rotate whatever has filled the void.
Two of the same signal each applied to a dipole each dipole 90 deg to the other. This creates the rotation I harp about.
Whether AG is doing this or not is unknown to me.
I do like his PN junction idea as this is known in small amounts. This would then mean his junction and the heatsink must be placed in the center.
I hope he isn't laughing an yet another futile attempt.
ofcource he is
Hi WW.
Guys, just as a side note, if you check out the Bob Boyce thread, you'll find that Boyces WFC set up relied on a toroidal former wound with a secondary and three primary coils, each primary pulsed separately. Check out the links posted there whereby some guy has developed Boyce's set up to charge his kid's toy car battery... while the same battery also powers the charger!
I simply bring this up to highlight the similarities between his toroidal and Agentgates, and the fact that there might well be more than one way to skin this cat!
No doubt, like you guys, I'm keeping one eye on the developments on Hartmanns forum, and I'm becoming just a little bit nervous. What is currently lacking is crucial input output data and I'm starting to get a slightly bad taste in my mouth about this... hope I'm wrong.
Agentgates gives a figure of 4.75 ohms for his primary winding ??? so is it just me or does this seem like a very high resistance for relatively short length of enamelled wire? I guess he might mean impedance a Khz, but it's not at all obvious.
Also he talks of holes as if they are something other than just the space left by an electron, which has me scratching my head a bit. Granted however, this may just be down to something being lost in translation... or indeed my lack of comprehension.
Sorry to be a party-pooper, but this one has no chance and I can only assume the builder/tester is making measurement errors.
If you step outside of the "exotic coil box" for a minute, essentially any coil coupling configuration can be tested in pretty much the same way.
You excite the primary with a pure sine wave and then you check how the output looks for different frequencies and loads. You characterize it for the transformer coupling ratio and the -3 dB frequency cutoff and the coupling efficiency and maximum stored inductive energy and stuff like that. I am not a transformer expert. However, for single conductor primaries, all talk about "corkscrewing" magnetic fields and the like is fantasy.
Sorry to rain on the parade.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on 2010.01.08, 01:53:55
Sorry to be a party-pooper, but this one has no chance and I can only assume the builder/tester is making measurement errors.
If you step outside of the "exotic coil box" for a minute, essentially any coil coupling configuration can be tested in pretty much the same way.
You excite the primary with a pure sine wave and then you check how the output looks for different frequencies and loads. You characterize it for the transformer coupling ratio and the -3 dB frequency cutoff and the coupling efficiency and maximum stored inductive energy and stuff like that. I am not a transformer expert. However, for single conductor primaries, all talk about "corkscrewing" magnetic fields and the like is fantasy.
Sorry to rain on the parade.
MileHigh
Why would I expect anything different? ;)
All you posted is true for classic induction. Have you ever built/tested anything but a solenoid coil?
Oh, let me guess. All coils are the same, aren't they?
Never the less, I respect your opinion, MH. I also respect the results of bench work by others and myself (some others).
SM's device is not a conventional transformer, and little to no conventional induction is expected.
If it works, something quite different is occurring, and we can't use conventional testing to vet it's usefulness as a translation device. The fact that the two coils are largely orthogonal, speaks to this.
It's a real challenge indeed!
.99
Quote from: poynt99 on 2010.01.08, 03:30:55
SM's device is not a conventional transformer, and little to no conventional induction is expected.
If it works, something quite different is occurring, and we can't use conventional testing to vet it's usefulness as a translation device. The fact that the two coils are largely orthogonal, speaks to this.
It's a real challenge indeed!
.99
source and sink, Poynt, source and sink
you don;t have to collect with a coil, but you do need both ends of the current loop (load circuit) - which can be shorted through the source to sink region. One end won;t work and I have not figured out why. Got some ideas to verify.
Hi guys;
The only real thing I found from @agentgates build is the way the primary is wound like Rodins method in a continuous turning and small offset then continue turning, etc. I have tested this in the FTPU outer wind with a thick 2 1/4 turn loop having a thin wire primary wound over it going around twice then I tested this compared to my previous builds. My best build was going with a 1.5vdc 10%duty pulse and I could build up 7 volts in my cap tank with my LED brightly lit. Testing the Rodin style primary gave around 2.4 volt in the cap tank with the LED dimly lit. So at this stage I do not see the advantage in my view.
I do not think there is a relation between his build and the TPUs. His driving voltages are far greater then what could be harbored in the TPU as start up power. My personal goal is a feed of 1.5 volts to obtain 60 volts as shown in SM FTPU video. This is where I will be happy. So for me right now I have delimited my goals and have been testing many methods but so far nothing concrete enough to write home about.
But what is pissing me off with @agentgates is simply the changing of builds, adding this and that, changing wind angles, etc. This flies in the face of the main reason he wrote to @stefan about his first build, or maybe not his first, but the build that was the reason for all this hooplah. I posted something to that effect on the OU thread.
Th Rodin style coil winding definitely has some advantages but one has to learn and test and test many secondary winds to capitalize on the method. Rodins coil enables you to turn around the armature the amount of wind turns per one pulse, whereas general coils wound over whatever will make one complete turn per pulse. There is definitely a plus there, but using the regular winds of the FTPU on some previous tests showed about the same thing where the pulse is turning in circles so much faster then the actual pulsing frequency when you consider my scope can go as high as 60mhz and even then, I cannot stabilize the waveform because it is moving much faster while I am only pulsing at a fraction of that.
Anyways, we will see how this one goes.
I must say I'm on the fence with this at present. There are good arguments for why it might and might not work. What we already know being the argument for why it won't work - a sprinkling of the unknown being why it might work.
It's nice to see both sides of the coin being openly debated here, with none of the 'Naysayer' prejudice that manifests itself so blatently on Hartmanns site.
At the end of the day, any scepticism on my part is tempered by the fact that I really want this to work. So I prefer at this stage to look for 'unknown' reasons why it might work, rather than 'known' reasons it won't work.
He keeps talking about electron acceleration, and I can see how the rotating magnetic field of the much longer primary might effectively increase the voltage in the secondary, but the word accelerate surely implies that the secondary voltage would keep on increasing for any given primary voltage... does it not?
I believe that our 240v mains voltage causes electrons to move at around just 3 inches per hour - not exactly blindingly fast - but of course this speed can be increased greatly by VHT pulses.
I'm still puzzled by the 4.75 ohm he mentioned as the resistance of the primary - I mean it can't be much more than a metre length of wire!
There could be 2 or 3 meters of wire there as the primary, but indeed 4.75 Ohms does sound a little high for that short length, even with only 30AWG wire.
You also brought up a point that has bothered me about agentgates' theory, and that is the accelerating electrons. As you say, there are only a couple ways the conduction electrons in a wire can be made to move faster, and it involves high voltage (either pulses or steady-state), and/or fast pulses. With pulses however, the electrons are constantly accelerating and decelerating, and unless the frequency increases or the high voltage increases, the electrons will not continue to accelerate afaik.
I'm also skeptical that he even has any kind of rotation. How has he proven that? WW has indicated that a DC output is a sign of this, but we have not seen any evidence, even of that. We wait patiently for more.
.99
I do tend to think that AG may be trying to provide explanations to fit what he is seeing rather than provide us with any known facts. Problem here is that a lot of people will hang on his every word without even considering that AG might have gotten the science all wrong in the first place. It will be interesting to see what shows up in other peoples replications.
As for a rotating magnetic field, isn't this present in induction motors? Didn't Tesla rely on a rotating magnetic field in his induction motors, and aren't all induction motors today based on this phenomenon?
This should all be over quite soon, either because AG provides a fully working demo model... or he realises that he has made a few crucial measurement errors - in which case he will quickly dissipate back into the aether from whence he came. ;)
@FarrahDay
QuoteAt the end of the day, any scepticism on my part is tempered by the fact that I really want this to work. So I prefer at this stage to look for 'unknown' reasons why it might work, rather than 'known' reasons it won't work.
I would agree completely, I am as big a skeptic as anyone however I will not let that cloud my judgement as to what may be possible despite what I know. When we think about it the addmission that something is impossible is not unlike a declaration that we know everything there is to know because the term "impossible" is infinite, that is it has no time frame. If we declare something impossible it must remain impossible 1 day for now as well as 1,000,000 years from now, not only have we declared that we must know everything there is to know in the universe but we have also stated we can predict the future for an infinite time frame, for me the word delusion and egotism come to mind when persons state catagorically that something is impossible because in fact we do not know and we never can realistically.
QuoteAs for a rotating magnetic field, isn't this present in induction motors? Didn't Tesla rely on a rotating magnetic field in his induction motors, and aren't all induction motors today based on this phenomenon?
I cannot say for sure because I do not know what this AG circuit is doing but most all induction motors utilize a rotating field but this field alternates sequentially giving the appearance of rotation. That is the coils turn on and off switching polarity thus the field in one section is not the same field in another as such there can be no true rotation of a field only a poor simulation of it not unlike flashing christmas lights giving the appearance of unidirectional motion. A true field rotation would imply the motion is continuous or uninterrupted although the magnitude and rate of change may vary in any part of it.
Regards
AC
QuoteI cannot say for sure because I do not know what this AG circuit is doing but most all induction motors utilize a rotating field but this field alternates sequentially giving the appearance of rotation. That is the coils turn on and off switching polarity thus the field in one section is not the same field in another as such there can be no true rotation of a field only a poor simulation of it not unlike flashing christmas lights giving the appearance of unidirectional motion. A true field rotation would imply the motion is continuous or uninterrupted although the magnitude and rate of change may vary in any part of it.
I see what you're saying AC. In this respect, Bob Boyce's toroidal set up utilising a toroid former completely encompassed by a secondary winding, onto which 3 primarys are coiled in 120 degree segments, most closely resembles a no-moving part Tesla induction motor.
Perhaps AG's can more closely be likened to a Rodin coil. Whatever, it will be interesting to see just where this goes.
On the RMF AC is completely correct.
It should also be understood that a field is only a measurement of something. At least, that is my definition.
True rotation of this subject can be found in orthagonal antenna dipole sets, as used on satellites. The signal has right or left hand helical polarization. Everything else AFAIK is only an attempt at gaining the results of true rotation.
I too have several problems with AG's practices and build but I would rather let all play out before I throw his attempts away.
If that is true, then please explain to me why the magnetic field does not rotate when we spin a magnet on it's own axis....
?
Quote from: Turbo on 2010.01.08, 19:50:09
If that is true, then please explain to me why the magnetic field does not rotate when we spin a magnet on it's own axis....
?
The magnet field does rotate when you spin the magnet on it's axis. It does not appear to rotate since it is homogeneous. rotate it off-center and it becomes inhomogeneous and you can readily see that the magnetic field moves with the magnet. The rules do not change just because you moved the center point.
No that is not true.
If that were true i could spin up a magnet high speed on its own axis and just move it slightly from left to right and get MASSIVE induction but it does not......unfortunatly.
So it's something else.
Marco.
When you spin an apple is the red color spinning with it? No.
Same for a magnet and the flux focused into what we call a field. A magnet is hardly different from a lense.
Common methods cannot rotate magnetic flux around the polar axis of a magnet.
Let's not forget that there are two vectors involved(classic statement to avoid flames).
While it remains completely impossible to build an RMF all is required is for that flux to rotate and travel in the eyes of the conductor.
There I spilled the beans.
Now all you need to do is create that action at the right helical pitch and speed.
The damned electrons don't need to move at c but the group velocity must.
Now, if you have a little expertise with 'exotic' coils and really understood the magnetic around a wire you should be able to make a little DC.
Sorry for the rant. It is friday night and I'm stuck in traffic a long way from home
Quote from: Turbo on 2010.01.08, 22:18:38
No that is not true.
If that were true i could spin up a magnet high speed on its own axis and just move it slightly from left to right and get MASSIVE induction but it does not......unfortunatly.
So it's something else.
Marco.
Hit the books again.
If you spin the magnet on it's axis and move it back and forth, you will get the same induction as when you moving it back and forth. Spinning it on it's axis doesn't "change" anything.
When you gents speak of a RMF, what direction is everything in (N, S, axis of rotation, etc)?
Does a rotating bar magnet create a RMF?
Does a rotating drum with magnets attached to the outside with all north faces glued to the side (south faces outward) create a RMF?
Does a rotating disc with 10 magnets glued to the top face (of the disc), N and S faces alternating up and down create a RMF?
Homopolar generator works by a different form of induction - there - I spilled some beans too.
Sorry for the rant, bench is knocking the shit out of me for couple hours now.
:)
You are both wrong....
However i would agree to this:
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2010.01.08, 23:34:36
While it remains completely impossible to build an RMF all is required is for that flux to rotate and travel in the eyes of the conductor.
Sat 9 Jan 2010:
The magnetic field is a property of space surrounding the magnet and it isn't moving at all.
The field isn't physically connected to the magnet and it does not move.
There spilled some too
As for your querry Grumpy about hitting the books i'd better not respond to that....cause there aint a book in the world that deals with what it really is and i think it's too bad because it's not too hard to prove it cannot be the way the older books describe.
Drop the books and please, don't compare the color of an apple with a magnet :P
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.01.09, 00:25:50
When you gents speak of a RMF, what direction is everything in (N, S, axis of rotation, etc)?
Moving field ,any direction but in a circle...
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.01.09, 00:25:50
Does a rotating bar magnet create a RMF?
No, just the apperance of a rotating field.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.01.09, 00:25:50
Does a rotating drum with magnets attached to the outside with all north faces glued to the side (south faces outward) create a RMF?
No, just the apperance of a rotating field.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.01.09, 00:25:50
Does a rotating disc with 10 magnets glued to the top face (of the disc), N and S faces alternating up and down create a RMF?
No, just the apperance of a rotating field.
No matter why you try or do with a magnet, the field won't move which makes it easy to answer all these questions...
Marco.
Some food for thought. Imagine a cylindrical magnet spinning around its axis at high speed. The magnet spins vertically like a top. The magnet does not move. There is a loop of wire facing the magnet that's open circuit.
If the magnet's magnetic field is aligned vertically with the spinning axis, then there is no EMF induced in the loop.
If the magnet's magnetic field is aligned horizontally, then there will be a large EMF induced in the loop that looks more or less like a sine wave.
If you add a resistor across the two ends of the loop, then the magnet will spin down and the resistor will get warm.
Hope this helps.
MileHigh
Okay I just figured out the debate is all about creating a rotating magnetic field (RMF). There is an easy way to do this but you have to be specific about your parameters.
For example, supposing you imagine a cylindrical volume about the size of a peanut butter jar and you want to create a RMF in that volume that spins in the horizontal plane. Lets say the horizontal plane is in x and y and the vertical dimension is z.
Take the peanut butter jar cylindrical volume and elevate it up about five inches off of your bench. Now put two big vertical 16-inch diameter loops of wire facing the cylinder at right angles to each other centered on the cylinder. In other words, a loop in the z-x plane and a loop in the z-y plane. Imagine the loops are on two faces of an imaginary cube, and the imaginary peanut butter jar is standing in the center of the cube.
Then energize one of the loops with a sine wave, and the other loop with a cosine wave. This will create a rotating magnetic field in the x-y plane inside the cylindrical volume that's about the size of a peanut butter jar.
MileHigh
P.S.: Actually it just occurred to me that if the two loops are threaded together so that they are on the same imaginary sphere, then you would get a much nicer big sweet spot in the center of the sphere that would have a stronger rotating magnetic field. The loops could just as easily be square, so an imaginary box, and in the center of the box you would have a rotating magnetic field in the horizontal plane.
To implement the circuit you could take a function generator to generate the sine wave. It has to be a real sine wave from a function generator or from an Exar XR-8038 chip. There is another chip that generates sine waves but I forget the number right now. To generate the cosine wave, you can use an opamp circuit called an integrator. Then you feed these two signals to an amplifier to drive the coils. A car audio amplifier or a stereo amplifier would come in handy here. The limitation is that it works best at a fixed frequency. When you change frequency you would have to adjust the gain on the cosine amplifier to compensate because the opamp integrator will go down in output level as you sweep the frequency higher.
Another option is to search on "quadrature oscillator" and you might find something with a variable frequency. That would be a useful thing to have.
Anyway, think about a car audio amplifier to drive your coils. It's a perfect fit for people with 12-volt batteries or 12-volt power supplies. Another match made in heaven would be a car audio amplifier paired to a computer switching power supply. A good modern computer power supply can pump out 12-volts with HUGE current and massive overall power if required. Plus you get a bonus 5-volt supply that is just as robust if not more so. LEDs connected directly to the +5-volt rail would probably instantly explode.
It would be cool because you could create a home-made induction "furnace." You could put all sorts of coils and circuits and magnetic thingies inside the vortex furnace and laugh out loud like an evil mad scientist as you cook them and/or make them spin! :D
The mother of all synchronous snake egg chambers. All that you need is an 850-watt computer power supply and some mother of a bad-ass car audio power amplifier to create your own magnetic vortex testing chamber! Muhahahahaaa
Quote from: Turbo on 2010.01.09, 00:38:57
No matter why you try or do with a magnet, the field won't move which makes it easy to answer all these questions...
Marco.
When you throw a magnet across the room, it's magnetic field travels with it. Slide it across a sheet of magetic viewing film and it will leave a path in the film. So, how can you say that the field does not travel with the magnet?
When you rotate a small magnet sitting on one side of a record player, it will induce a signal in a small coil as it passes. So, how can you say that the magnetic field does not move with the magnet?
...and it is in writing, just not main-stream writing.
As far as a conductor is concerned, the "appearance of a rotating magnetic field" is a rotating magnetic field.
How can you tell that a RMF is actually rotating unless it varies? You can't. (Deliberately ignoring any changes via coupling, spin, etc.) If the field doesn't change then it could be doing the Macarena and you wouldn't know it.
Doesn't matter - RMF is not the "Holy Grail of OU" anyway.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.01.09, 01:54:13
As far as a conductor is concerned, the "appearance of a rotating magnetic field" is a rotating magnetic field.
Yes, as long as that 'field' is radial to the wire. Common text books showing South chasing North around a wire are wrong.
Quote
Doesn't matter - RMF is not the "Holy Grail of OU" anyway.
From my experience, Exactly.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.01.09, 01:54:13
So, how can you say that the field does not travel with the magnet?
When you rotate a small magnet sitting on one side of a record player, it will induce a signal in a small coil as it passes. So, how can you say that the magnetic field does not move with the magnet?
This is exactly my point. :)
Recent investigation has pointed out to this weird but serious possibillaty.
These experiments involved creating the effect of induction, without a "moving" magnetic field.
According to these tests the magnetic field is a property of space.
Just like gravity, if you jump off a building, does gravity move?
Surely you will move but will gravity move with you?
In plasma discharges where the magnetic element is a billion times stronger, the plasma can become instable due to slight gravitational diffrences, nobody knows how this is possbile because the magnetic field should be dominant, yet it becomes unstable.
I believe and i do not like the word believe, but there could be a missing link between gravity and magnetics.
I have had a difficult time undestanding all this but it does point out to the fact that these are properties of space itself and they can be alterd by magnets coils etc. but the matter creating the diffrence is by itself not responsible for the field it has effect on.
If this all turns out to be true, then it means moving a magnet or pulsing a coil create the effect of induction,but the effect itself is a property of space so we can do it without moving the magnet or pulsing the coil becuse they can exist seperatly.
I hope it is like that because then we can use just that..
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.01.09, 01:54:13
Doesn't matter - RMF is not the "Holy Grail of OU" anyway.
Agreed.
Creating the effect of induction without moving a magnet or pulsing a coil can pherhaps become the holy grail i don't know.
And i amgoing to do these test in the summer because i am first going to do some plasma discharges which i have been busy with lately as you might know. :)
Marco.
Perhaps Faraday's Paradox might clear thing up a little:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_paradox
Quote from: Turbo on 2010.01.09, 05:09:51
Recent investigation has pointed out to this weird but serious possibillaty.
These experiments involved creating the effect of induction, without a "moving" magnetic field.
According to these tests the magnetic field is a property of space.
Just like gravity, if you jump off a building, does gravity move?
Surely you will move but will gravity move with you?
In plasma discharges where the magnetic element is a billion times stronger, the plasma can become instable due to slight gravitational diffrences, nobody knows how this is possbile because the magnetic field should be dominant, yet it becomes unstable.
I believe and i do not like the word believe, but there could be a missing link between gravity and magnetics.
I have had a difficult time undestanding all this but it does point out to the fact that these are properties of space itself and they can be alterd by magnets coils etc. but the matter creating the diffrence is by itself not responsible for the field it has effect on.
If this all turns out to be true, then it means moving a magnet or pulsing a coil create the effect of induction,but the effect itself is a property of space so we can do it without moving the magnet or pulsing the coil becuse they can exist seperatly.
I hope it is like that because then we can use just that..
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.01.09, 01:54:13
Doesn't matter - RMF is not the "Holy Grail of OU" anyway.
Agreed.
Creating the effect of induction without moving a magnet or pulsing a coil can pherhaps become the holy grail i don't know.
And i amgoing to do these test in the summer because i am first going to do some plasma discharges which i have been busy with lately as you might know. :)
Marco.
Moving or changing a magnetic field is not the only form of induction, and moving electrons or ions is not the only form of current.
Take a look at the Rowland Effect, Roentgen Current, and Wilson Effect. The magnetic field never moves and is not varied directly. Both electric current and a magnetic field is produced by the interaction between a field (electric or magnentic) and the rotating dielectric.
There is magnetic induction, electrostatic induction, and then there is that tricky "time rate of change" form of induction.
Take a look at the Poynting Vector Mess and Scott's "acceleration energy". I am guessing that the extra energy we experience when charges are accelerated (this includes ANY change in the electron shell) comes from the medium itself. All energy is NOT EM. There - I spilled a sack of beans. I've had to abandon Einstein and Maxwell because the foundation of their model is fundamentally flawed. Unfortunately, Tesla never published his treatise on the working of the universe. Every point in the universe has infinite energy if only we can convert it to EM energy.
Been great talking about this. Time to do a little "conversion".
You read my mind..
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=10237&sid=cdabeb487b259e6515f190eb02f104d9 (http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=10237&sid=cdabeb487b259e6515f190eb02f104d9)
Turbo,
IMHO, 'THE' magnetic flux is one facet of space. Magnetic fields ARE properties of that facet as effects of all things other than space.
Farrah Day,
The Faraday paradox was only a paradox until Lorentz explained it. Recent attempts at explaining it just go overboard, in my opinion.
Statements about the field moving with the magnet as the magnet turns about its own polar axis can be considered true only if those folks understand a field is only a boundary or measurement and the movement means nothing as the measurement is a perfect circle with no irregularities. Therefore, it causes no change of flux density or 'field line count density'.
I hate those pesky magnetic field lines. They are very hard to untangle from my lawn mover blades :P
The Wiki link is interesting. Over the last couple of years the information served by Wikipedia has changed considerably. Now, they even reference Feynman?
QuoteI hate those pesky magnetic field lines. They are very hard to untangle from my lawn mover blades
Agreed, sometimes the way things are visually depicted in an attempt to portray an effect can actually create a false impression in our minds. We have to learn to see past the limits of these visual depictions.
Oh dear, looks like Hartmanns losing faith or interest - or both - as he's demoted AG's 'application for OU device' into the TPU thread now. :-\
That familiar old scenario now seems to be repeating itself on overunity.com and there is much disquiet in the camp.
Why the original coil and set-up have not been shown and demonstrated is rather worrying. I see no point in trying to perfect something until you have actually confirmed without doubt that the initial set-up worked as stated. AG better produce the goods soon or they'll eat him alive!
Quote from: Farrah Day on 2010.01.12, 10:51:13
Oh dear, looks like Hartmanns losing faith or interest - or both - as he's demoted AG's 'application for OU device' into the TPU thread now. :-\
That familiar old scenario now seems to be repeating itself on overunity.com and there is much disquiet in the camp.
Why the original coil and set-up have not been shown and demonstrated is rather worrying. I see no point in trying to perfect something until you have actually confirmed without doubt that the initial set-up worked as stated. AG better produce the goods soon or they'll eat him alive!
Its exactly what i think, i realy don't understand why some people try variation from the first prototype when they don't know if there realy something to work with.AG at first said he was sending a device to Stefan and now he try 10000 variation from his first build to improve it but without showing proof of concept from his first prototype, even if the first one had heat issue , there nothing wrong by showing a simple video of the device lighting up a 100w light bulb even if the prototype burnout in 20 sec, that make proof of concept and show there realy something.What if the SM device had nothing to do at all with a toroidal shape coil , maybe it was just a convenient way to show the device without exposing too much information, there infinite possibility with no information at all of the device, the chance someone reverse engineer it is about 0%, it can be a special alloy , counter intuitive circuit, special coil, complex magnetic geometry etc etc. Its the best video ever seen that show a clear proof of concept but in same time without more information, there nothing who can be build from that video, no information at all.
Best Regards,
IceStorm
And here ends the answer to the worlds problems ;D
Post from Agent
Alright Gentleman. I go back to my cave and finish what I was doing and when I'm finished I'll disclose my work in a scientific journal and I will start it with lightbulb-junkies videos.
Stefan, no need the prize. I am tired. And you can handle this statement as official. For moral reasons you don't deserve this device. I will hand it to somebody else.
I hope Marek will have more patience to beat the wolfs around his workbench, entertain the children house and focus to his work in the same time with higher production capability that I have. I am sure he can but I don't have this multitasking capability. I wish him a good luck and safety as if I leave the wolfs will put the crosshair on HIM.
@All
About the device. Whatever I told was clear and helpful. I did not make any mistake in the theories behind of it and never intended to mislead anybody or dance in spotlight. If Stefan will find the email I sent to him I clearly stated that I had NO intention earlier to open a topic with my discoveries.
I wish you all a good luck for the competition on making shiny OU light bulb. That is more important here than the way you achieve it. Don't worry about me, when I am feeling satisfied with my performance and comfortably but precisely have documented everything I will find serious funding source.
When you guys will hold the final device in your hand in a few years time, remember this post.
Well, it looks like it's all over... AG has bailed boys!
QuoteAlright Gentleman. I go back to my cave and finish what I was doing and when I'm finished I'll disclose my work in a scientific journal and I will start it with lightbulb-junkies videos.
Stefan, no need the prize. I am tired. And you can handle this statement as official. For moral reasons you don't deserve this device. I will hand it to somebody else.
I hope Marek will have more patience to beat the wolfs around his workbench, entertain the children house and focus to his work in the same time with higher production capability that I have. I am sure he can but I don't have this multitasking capability. I wish him a good luck and safety as if I leave the wolfs will put the crosshair on HIM.
@All
About the device. Whatever I told was clear and helpful. I did not make any mistake in the theories behind of it and never intended to mislead anybody or dance in spotlight. If Stefan will find the email I sent to him I clearly stated that I had NO intention earlier to open a topic with my discoveries.
I wish you all a good luck for the competition on making shiny OU light bulb. That is more important here than the way you achieve it. Don't worry about me, when I am feeling satisfied with my performance and comfortably but precisely have documented everything I will find serious funding source.
When you guys will hold the final device in your hand in a few years time, remember this post.
No doubt AG has realised that he'd made some crucial mistakes and the bloody thing never worked as he thought in the first place. Looks like AG has used Hartmann and some of the more critical posters as his 'get out of jail free card'.
I knew it...and i vote for removing all this crap from OUR decent forum. :)
We got one place for that shit already ;D
M.
It was quite interesting to follow the AgentGates thread over on Hartmanns forum as it – and as many expected, inevitably – twisted and turned, faltered and then gasped frantically for air before finally giving up the ghost.
Though I had no great expectations, I optimistically hoped that AG had discovered the missing link, the key that had for so long had remained hidden from view, and that this was the start to a new era in the TPU saga. Alas, it was not to be and all that now remains as the dust settles are opinions and more conjecture.
What I'm always surprised by, is just how fanatical some people are, how aggressively they will defend someone they know nothing about to ensure a dream is not destroyed. Even when that dream evaporates before their very eyes and it becomes evident that it may all possibly be just a fabricated illusion, they hang on for dear life, prepared to defend the source with their last breath. Now if that isn't the definition of 'naïve gullibility' I don't know what is.
To my mind, the guy who laid his thoughts of the whole affair on the line, spoke his mind and upset the gullible in the process had every right to do so. But wow, did the fanatics tear into him. "By golly, a 'naysayer' amongst all us ardent believers... tear him apart boys." A lamb pounced upon by a pack of hungry wolves.
It's exactly the same on the Joule Thief thread on Hartmanns site. If you at all doubt, if you're a non-believer, if you dare to bring a little science into the discussion or argue against their perceived science, you're a no good blasphemer... and should go straight to hell! I find this every bit like religion. I can sit at home on a Sunday afternoon, and have all manner of religious types come to save my soul, preaching about this and that... but that's all they do, preach. You will never get one of them to listen to your side of the argument. And what's their problem anyhow, why do they want so much for me to become a believer? Are they that worried about people with their own mind, thinking for themselves, making their own decisions. But I digress.
I've had my battles with people in the past, mainly due to my low tolerance of utter stupidity and ignorance (and Hartmanns site has more than it's fair share of idiots running around untethered), but in fact I'm as open minded as anyone. I'm always looking with interest at new and emerging science, for possibilities, for new angles of approach and indeed for the implementation of new ideas.
The old adage, 'A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.' comes to mind. It works both ways though. On the one hand we get the highly educated, very knowledgeable scientist with tunnel vision; on the other hand we get the uneducated ignoramus prepare to jump on every band wagon that comes along. From the tunnelled vision view of the highly educated scientist, his learning may tell him something is not possible, however from the gullible, naïve and ignorant point of view, anything and everything is possible and science is irrelevant. Rather sadly, two very extreme and non-compatible ways of looking at things.
In this scenario, what the scientist says will usually soar way above the layman's head, and what the layman spouts is usually utter nonsense bearing no relation to real science whatsoever. Instant stalemate.
I've met professors with tunnel vision, able only to function successfully within a very narrow band of knowledge. Highly educated and extremely knowledgeable within their chosen discipline, but take them out of their comfort zone and it's like talking to a ten-year-old kid. OK, this does not apply to all, but I've met university graduates that don't know how to change the fuse in a plug, or have any idea how that great lump of metal under a car bonnet works.
I like to think that the difference between both these types and myself is that I am neither hindered with tunnel vision nor hampered by any great ignorance. In essence I'm blessed with a decent education and enough common sense to see reason. I'm one lucky girl.
All this is to say that while no one should be so quick as to dismiss claims without careful consideration and reflection, by contrast simply excepting something or someone's word for it would be foolhardy in the extreme. A little common sense can go a long way, but sadly often seems very lacking.
Well said Farrah Day.
It's important to retain a healthy balance of skepticism and open-mindedness.
This balance will be the key to the success of not only this web site, but to the discovery of OU.
.99
QuoteIt's important to retain a healthy balance of skepticism and open-mindedness.
lol. Why didn't I think of that P99?
You summed up exactly what I was getting at in a single sentence! :)
A summary of Tony's comments, by FatBird over at OU. (slightly edited): (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8586.msg223730#msg223730)
Quote1. In this manner the secondary wire will provide DC current.
2. Thinner primary and more turns on the secondary. One IRFP460 driving them. No significant heat.
3. Try all 3 Phases in 1-2-3 and 3-2-1 sequence, also change positive and negative and please share us your results.
4. Try all 3 Phases in 1-2-3 and 3-2-1 sequence, also change positive and negative and please share us your results.
5. Output peak goes to 153V. No significant drop on it after connecting the 250V/50W halogen light bulb. Only a few volts.
6. This gluing thing really screwd up my plans but the 2x200V secondary is on now. I need one more side to glue and a 3rd secondary for the electronics to make it self running.
7. I remembered when I started the TPU research I had coil that worked but I have successfully caused a thousand pound damage in my lab during the research and I couldn't work for nearly a year on it.
8. They are not only stronger but a lot more spikes when you drive all 3 coils. I put a 50W 240 halogen bulb on it. They just don't care about your load. By only increasing the input voltage the spikes are coming closer and closer a bit, some kind of spin-up effect.
9. When you will drive the 3 coils, please make sure you start it from low frequency and increase it slowly as the spikes will come closer and closer. If they rapidly merge your coil may blow up. I have had one Melt Down on me already.
10. Also they will be far stronger when you'll fire the 2 other coils in sequence. The loads seems to have little or no effect on the primary accelerator circuit. If this device can be synchronized with itself it seems many things might be possible.
11. Don't use a high frequency. Stay in a FIXED lower range (e.g. 100Hz or 1kHz). Driving them at LOW FREQUENCY works best! It is not a radio device.
12. Not critical, depending on your load. It is nothing but a performance multiplier transformer where the output is the sum of the input and the extracted energy. You can use it in a wide range from 100Hz to 1MHz if you have a well-shielded room as there is radio broadcasting in the higher frequency ranges and at that power you can disturb it.
13. Today when I built the device I found that the energy moves in the device is far above 1kW, the only obstacle that it comes out where you would never expect it: it doesn't heat the coil at all, they remain cold but cooks the switching FET on the primary coil nearly instantly.
14. Yes. There are 2 ways to make it SPIN. You can give it a single big spike and many tiny ones to keep it rotating. The other solution is simpler: start slapping it up with higher voltage and when you reached the demanded output voltage just keep it up with the tiny slaps. It only takes a few mA to keep it spinning, not more.
15. The second is easier to keep the circuitry simple. You only need a variable input voltage, but a fixed voltage will also work. But perhaps you will need to wait a couple of seconds while it spins up. (The JET-turbine effect that SM mentioned) Actually you will be able to vary the output with the frequency alteration but that will be not that efficient. (for now it is enough, you need the variable input only if you want the maximum from your device.
16. Here's what I mean. If your device over runs, the spikes might merge to a huge spike. What we are doing here is like laying a brick one to another, while the other side (your load on it) removes some bricks from the top. All you need to do is to keep the level on the required level. If you let it create too much (too big spike) that is a high voltage and high current spike and has a huge electromagnetic effect on your coil. The same thing that SM mentioned with the little 5 year old guy and the blown up TV that created so big of an electromagnetic field that pulled nails out of walls towards the screen (killed the guy) and other weird things.
17. Yes of course I have already made a coil for you yesterday that naturally you can keep. The one I mentioned puts out 190V to the 50W for ~30 seconds before you can smell the plastic on it, so it's a bit below 50W and since I don't have light bulb for 1W handy at the moment to verify the requirements I decided to build a larger device for you that comfortably supply usable energy. Before I send it I will also video it and upload it to my youtube channel.
18. Yes, I noticed that yesterday on the large one I built for Stefan the primary is cooler than both the ambient and the secondary coil. The secondary is about on room temperature. It is the sign of created inertia and gravitational force. so if you have multiple primary coils and shoot them after each other that would feel a shooting inertia and gyro effect that SM's withnesses felt.
19. A duplicate (well almost) of 13.
.99
Good luck with that. :)
I ain't going to hook up any more coils and i ain't going to wrap any more coils. :)
STPRUE
Quote:
I'm a coiler...what can I say. All those JT's over the past few years really helps. I really do need some help on hooking it up though!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
This is a good place to ask[except marco[he has medical reasons[almost went nutso!!]]
I would also post that request [with photo's here]
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8586.new;topicseen#new
@ Marco
Quote:
Good luck with that. ;D
I ain't going to hook up any more coils and i ain't going to wrap any more coils.
____________________________________________________________
SOOO...Hows that ""Coil aholics anonymous" recovery thing working out?
I thought I saw you hanging around the" Gates" thread with a toilet paper tube and some baling wire [may be it was some one else [it was dark]]
Quote from: ramset on 2010.01.21, 03:32:38
This is a good place to ask[except marco[he has medical reasons[almost went nutso!!]]
SOOO...Hows that ""Coil aholics anonymous" recovery thing working out?
I thought I saw you hanging around the" Gates" thread with a toilet paper tube and some baling wire [may be it was some one else [it was dark]]
HAHAHA noooooooo not me ;D im making tubes you know. :)
Otto,
The signals are strange because they dont show up at all on the scope unless im on a certain range dc wise , it is still difficult to extablish why.
@marco,
There is a strange thing happening here , I claim Nothing but that ,I even claim it makes no sense at this time. WTF are u about man?
so what if you have taken a different path ( that i agree with but thats not the point) What is your motive ..smokin weed ?? what??
This will be no different from anywhere else if we cant colaborate on something openly and honestly.
why bother commenting ??
Just show to us what u got goin on would be fine. people will move in that direction if that is the case for them.
of couse tubes are particle accelerators DUH!
I will do some more in a few days
Just know that THERE IS SOMETHING WEIRD HERE and it aint my cro
Hi Mannix
I was actually responding to a quote from my fellow Ramset...
He was thinking i was wrapping Agent coils so i just told him i wasn't.
What's the problem with that?
I suggest you go and try your Gates coil 20 Meters away from a 2 Gigawatt powerline :)
I concider this thing to be over soon.
A Quote from Steven:
"The energy comes from a verry reliable source..we use it everyday, electromagnetic fields" ......
Marco.
OH, and by the way i don't do drugs.....
@Marco
QuoteI suggest you go and try your Gates coil 20 Meters away from a 2 Gigawatt powerline
I concider this thing to be over soon.
A Quote from Steven:
"The energy comes from a verry reliable source..we use it everyday, electromagnetic fields" ......
This would depend on context and perception, we utilize electromagnetic fields every day but it should be understood that the EM fields in our power line conductors were always present and that our generators do nothing more than pump this EM energy---there is no true generation only a simple pumping action of what was always present. This is why we say conventional generators produce a charge seperation which is the cause of an electric current, something already present in the conductors was seperated. So this statement depends entirely on perception, we can believe that only the energy man disturbs matters and the rest of the universe is irrelevant or we can believe there is energy everywhere in everything and we are irrelevant, I happen to believe the former. As well I would be more inclined to side with nature as more often than not she has a way of making us look silly for being so full of ourselves.
regards
AC
Has anybody else than just Marek seen these hump waves after any pulses,
that can not be explained by capacitive coupling ?
Over here I only see capacitive coupling wavforms on the scopeshots or
inductive kickback BackEMF waveforms... hmm, so is there really anything about it ?
@Marco,
well SM demonstrated it also to Dr. Schronzinger, or how he was called, at the university and
there were probably no powerlines...
Regards, Stefan.
Hello all,
@Stefan
I didnt want to wright it so the people would think Im a smart ass but I have the same "strange hump" signal made with different coils and a totally different setup. I think I posted it already but again, this signals are the start point of something very big: the point where this coils will "connect" to the earths magnetic field, or to the gravitation or the rotation of the earth or everything mentioned together.
It seems that nobody of you understands whats going on.
This "strange signal" is a normal behaviour of some coils but ....it seems that people dont know what happens in a pulsed wire not to mention a pulsed coil.
Do you all know what signals we have to expect when the TPU works properly?
Otto
Quote from: otto on 2010.01.21, 12:44:59
Hello all,
@Stefan
I didnt want to wright it so the people would think Im a smart ass but I have the same "strange hump" signal made with different coils and a totally different setup. I think I posted it already but again, this signals are the start point of something very big: the point where this coils will "connect" to the earths magnetic field, or to the gravitation or the rotation of the earth or everything mentioned together.
It seems that nobody of you understands whats going on.
This "strange signal" is a normal behaviour of some coils but ....it seems that people dont know what happens in a pulsed wire not to mention a pulsed coil.
Do you all know what signals we have to expect when the TPU works properly?
Otto
Hi Otto,
then please show it with some good scopeshots and post all data with it,
like volts/div, at what points it was measured and an accurate circuit diagramm.
Just only from claims we will NOT see the "light".
Just show us all, where exactly it is happening.
Otherwise we can not research and replicate it if we don´t know,
what frequencies and circuit diagramms and parts were involved and how it was measured.
Too bad, that the guys who claim to have something always don´t do
any good reports...
Many thanks for your hard work.
Regards, Stefan.
Hello all,
too bad that guys dont want to read my already posted document at overunity.com in the "download zone".
Otto
PS: it seems that people think I dont have a job so Im hanging around in forums wrighting a lot of crap!!
Just a reminder guys.
Post general discussions outside of the benches.
I've merged some of the last posts not related to Peter's specific replication to here.
Thanks.
.99
Quote from: Lindsay Mannix on 2010.01.21, 04:57:30
Otto,
The signals are strange because they dont show up at all on the scope unless im on a certain range dc wise , it is still difficult to extablish why.
@mannix
On my scope, I know that on my Channel B, I sometimes have to play around with the voltage/div rotary selector otherwise the waveform gets lost off the screen, but when I fiddle around with the knob, it comes back to where it was. Could it be just a dirty or dusty switch that needs some tuner cleaner.
@ wattsup,
All 4 channels do it exactly the same ..it may however be some sort of triggering characteristic that I am unable to reproduce with any other type of signal.
Im getting pretty confident that it is something else, for instance, now when i reduce the pulse width to minimum my current drops right away and the mystrey pulse stays exactly the same and the normal pulse reduces. This just may of great significance.
With no other people able to see it here . I will not persue this pulse in this arena but I will let you know if there is something further on from this point.
I have reason to believe it to be worh some effort
Lindsay
Lindsay
Thanks
I'll be taking a few classes in TPU this winter.
Perhaps I can ask the class about your Find ?
If I learn anything I will share it also.
And also study some of Otto's down load at O. U.
Hopefully I will be able to actually comprehend something!
Thanks again for sharing.
Chet
Yes,
This is an interesting path , take time , basic setup as described, same page 4 all at last.
the bipolar transistor will slow me down a few days ..
none here at this time plenty in england though
EM
It was this reply to Marco by Tony [Agentgates] at Stefans place
That really got my attention
@marco
The video you've posted is embarrasing but also extremely funny. All those coils have exactly the same problem and I am wondering if any of you were able to expect serious results.
When I cleaned up Stefan's I will also send you photos of my poorest devices with far better results and you're going to hit a hole in the wall with your head how simple they are. ;D
----------------------------------------------------------------
Chet
It is hard to see why some would rather lead people away from something which they have not given much energy.
I suppose "Thank you for caring" would be apropriate.
so Marco, EM , and others who say this is not the correct path. Please show your results so that we can see the "correct path"
Meantime this path is the one some are taking for better or worse.
we dont need to argue for limitations ( that we get to keep)
I have stated clearly that something is different here ..nothing else at this stage. It is of no consequence to any body if there is no success..strangne isint it?
"You are going the wrong way" ..ok so which is the right way? or should one follow one just because they claim that path is wrong?
It does no make any sense..just like my "ghost " pulses
Time will tell how this goes . Patience and fortitude will discover what lies beneath this little vortex coil and it's strange dc pulse.
So show me a little experiment that will rearrange my cereberal cortex with regard to your path's . Then you will have my attention
I have shown you one, and it was not hard, but many could not find the time to try it. Thats ok too
but to attempt to lead people away ..thats just strange ..so look into that behavior and let me know why that is .
Then I can discover why I seem to be pissing into the wind here.
Lindsay
Lindsay
As men, being "Humble" is one of the hardest things we ever do!
I consider myself Humble ,Yet sometimes I find myself ready to bite my own nose to spite my face.
Really sucks[just did this [almost] less than 10 min ago over a design difference with a business partner]
I think this goes back to
"If it can be done I can do it"
Or
"If I can't do it no one can"
Male pride Bud!!
Keep on keepin on
Thats the most "grown up" thing to do.
No stone left unturned!
bite your tongue, swallow your pride
And cool your pits Boys!
This won't take long, One way or the other!
Chet
PS
I don;t believe in Free Energy
Just better harvesting methods [less moving parts]
Maybe intellectual Evolution.
Funny how progress races past my hundred year[or more] old generator
EM
I don;t believe in Free Energy
Just better harvesting methods [less moving parts]
Maybe intellectual Evolution.
Funny how progress races past my hundred year[or more] old generator
The only place on the planet I can go and see 100 year old state of the art device is
THE NIAGARA POWER PLANT
Being an Antenna man
You know some day, somewhere, somebody is going to "tune in"
And POOOOOOOF ashes
Chet
PS
I don't Know about the "POOF"
but the "tuning in' I'm quite sure thats been done
Who knows Lindsay might be "dialing in" as I type
@ramset
QuoteI don;t believe in Free Energy
Just better harvesting methods [less moving parts]
Maybe intellectual Evolution.
I think the general population would agree with you completely but then the general population will never accomplish much of anything because of their lack of perspective.
QuoteFunny how progress races past my hundred year[or more] old generator
The only place on the planet I can go and see 100 year old state of the art device THE NIAGARA POWER PLANT
It is also funny that the very man who designed those generators at Niagara, Nikola Tesla, abandoned this archaic technology not many years later for better technology. Yet the world or general population just kept on plugging away with what Nikola Tesla gave them because they just do not know any better. We could also say in the last 100 years since Nikola Tesla there have been very few men who are as smart as they think they are, the ego has a funny way of distorting reality which leads men to the delusion their thoughts must always be correct.
What I find interesting from a psychological view is that the people who never build or experiment are always the ones who state --- it cannot work. How would they know what can or cannot work if they have never bothered to try anything new? At the end of the day it will always be a few people of intelligence and determination who will succeed while the rest of the world are left scratching their heads wondering what happened, this is a fact shown time and time again in history.
Regards
AC
All Canadian
Quote:
At the end of the day it will always be a few people of intelligence and determination who will succeed while the rest of the world are left scratching their heads wondering what happened, this is a fact shown time and time again in history.
Regards
AC
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quite true!!
Unfortunately That Gaping, festering wound in the Eye/ intellect of man
That is The Niagara power plant
Also has repercussions beyond the wallet
Folks Die ,Wars are fought etc etc.........
If and when we know a better way.
no matter how lazy, ignorant, selfish ETC we feel our fellow man is.
IT must be shared with all, no strings attached.
No more blood !!for Oil, gasoline or electricity!!
There are plenty of other things my Boys can Die for!
Chet
@EM
I posted a few questions for you here;
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=57.msg1194#msg1194
@Mannix
I get what you are saying but I would have hoped for some more results from the current builders.
I had posted what to do for the preliminary tests on those coils. If someone that has a build can do that and report back the results, then I would decide to make one or not. I have other builds in progress and tests I am doing now on other things more directly related in my view to the FTPU and cannot just drop everything.
We cannot do it all ourselves. Guys with @AG builds should be weaning every possible way of driving it then report back in a clear and concise manner. I do feel the @AG build may have some merit and too bad for him if this furtherance leads to other effects that guys may discover. @AG left the forum so tuff luck to him when this goes to the next level since we can use this technique in many ways.
I do feel the Rodin style has merit but only more testing will determine it. I am testing some side issues along these lines but so far nothing interesting.
Someone should have already posted an @AG build mapping of the north/south fields at steady dc voltage. This is not done. OK.
It has always been about juggling north and south fields.
So I just read this thread and it seems like the whole "Agent Gates" deal is dead in the water. I was expecting that.
A toroidal power unit (TPU) from what I understand is any variation on some sort of "motionless" power generation device that makes use of interacting magnetic fields and some sort of magnetic core material. There may be some external timing setup for switching the input source on and off and you hope to get more power out of the device than you put in. I believe that many devices make use of a system to regulate the magnetic flux so that the "flux switching" can somehow give you over unity.
I know that MagnaCoaster is pitching this concept and there are always TPU threads going on on the various forums. Magnacoaster never delivered.
To go back to basics, any TPU-style device based on magnetic flux switching in one form or other cannot output more power than you put into it. It all goes back to basic electromagnetics and Maxwell's equations and related stuff. Use the term "Laws of Nature" if you care.
Personally I never pay attention to any TPU threads because I know that they are all a waste of time.
AC, I am going to preemptively comment because I can anticipate what you might say. Your pitch is always "we don't really know everything that's out there and there are unlimited possibilities." Well of course we don't know everything that's out there which is proven by the fact that knowledge is advancing every single day. But there are not unlimited possibilities. As we learn new things we are not supposed to forget what we have learned in the past. We have learned a lot of stuff that tells us that certain things are impossible. We would be fools to ignore what we have learned and continuously spin our wheels getting nowhere. There is too much of an opportunity cost that we would have to pay if we kept our minds so open that we ignore what we already have learned.
A transformer, or any variation on a transformer, will never be able to produce more energy out than you put in. This can be PROVEN with some understanding of electromagnetics and mathematics. Once you understand this, it becomes no different than looking at a mechanical spring. Nobody in their right mind would look at a spring and say that it is a source of free energy. Their common sense tells them that this is the case. An electrical coil is just an electromagnetic version of a mechanical spring, but people can't see this if they don't have the background knowledge.
A transformer is basically an electromagnetic version of a lever. Another way of putting it is to say a transformer is like a car transmission. Anyone with common sense would tell you that a lever or a transmission cannot be a source of free energy.
With respect to Agent Gates' pictures, I saw the orthogonal arrangement between the main coil and the thinner wire that is wrapped orthogonally around the main coil. Supposing there is 100 turns in the main coil, and then the orthogonally wound coil that is wrapped around the main coil is equivalent to a single turn of wire. In other words, you can ignore all of the fancy orthogonal windings and just treat that as a single loop of wire coupled to the 100 turns of the main coil such that it is simply a 100:1 transformer with an air core. At least that's what I am seeing when I look at the pictures. There are some variations on the theme where the orthogonal windings are on a diagonal to the main coil. Big deal, it still means nothing.
This makes me think of the infamous "Rodin" coil. I am getting a sense that the Rodin coil threads are petering out because besides a few party tricks done with the coil, there is nothing more to do. The boys have run out of fun things to do with the Rodin coil and not a single practical application or test for alleged freed energy from the Rodin coil has been proposed that I am aware of. The bottom line is that the Rodin coil is just a coil. The fancy winding pattern in the Rodin coil means absolutely nothing. The magnetic fields generated by the wire turns in the Rodin coil all add together to give you something that looks like a cross between a toroidal coil and a conventional coil. Big deal, it means absolutely nothing in the real world. A Rodin coil possesses the property of inductance and magnetic coupling just like any other coil. It makes for a lousy toroidal coil and a lousy conventional coil for magnetic coupling. From my limited perspective, the "Rodin mathematics" that are associated with the Rodin coil are pseudo-mathematics junk. If I am wrong about the "Rodin mathematics" someone please correct me with a link that shows how this alleged new form of mathematics can solve a problem.
Anyway, another "rain on the parade" posting from me. Sorry!
MileHigh
Quote from: EMdevices on 2010.01.24, 02:54:03
thanks for keeping us in check ramset
Lindsay, I don't think I have seen your postings and these strange waveforms you speak about, can you send me a link?
I did see agentgate's 10 or 15 pictures or so, that he initially posted, and among them I saw the spiky waveforms. Please don't tell me that's what you are excited about.
Putting in energy from a generator and getting excited about some pulses you might not understand is really what this TPU effort has been about all along. Such a waste of time. Hopefully somebody learned something about properly switching inductive loads.
SM plainly stated his device is not a free energy device, but nobody is listening, and I think I know why.
EM
Until a device can be demonstrated to have been fully reverse engineered, various paths of research to do so are valid. This includes the Power Line Coupling Theory, and the approach agentgates has taken. At the present time, one path is no more valid than the other, and as such, the proponents of all paths need to accept this and not diminish the work others are doing.
We all have our opinions about the TPU and its inventor, and the best approach to study and hopefully crack the secret of its inner workings, and that is OK. Accept that everyone may not agree with your own approach, and continue on with your research.
Forcing your ideas onto others when they may have their own is not conducive to a friendly environment to be involved in, so please keep that in mind when expressing your opinions. Make comments of your own observations and conclusions, and leave it at that-- is the best approach imo.
A comment about SM's commentary in the videos, in particular the one showing the FTPU:
SM says the device has been in development for about 20 years! If true, that would place the TPU's beginnings in around the mid 70's. Interesting.
He also says that "they are not free energy devices", "they are conversion devices", "they're not
unrealistic devices that can't be properly demonstrated".
Be careful how you interpret what he says here. Keep in mind that these are promotion videos meant to attract investors and their money. The phrase "Free Energy Device" would send 99.9% of investors running for the hills, so OF COURSE he is not going to say this device makes free energy. Someone also didn't think it was prudent to leave SM's use of the word "unrealistic" in the commentary, and it was muted out in the video versions released on the web. If you think about it, that was a wise thing to do.
The point being; don't take everything said in the commentary part of the videos so literal. There are good reasons things are said a certain way.
.99
MH
I see poynt posted while I was Typing
Simple as a "Transmission" or "Lever"[mechanical]
Tell that to the Bug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc
Chet
Chet:
By the "Bug" you mean the Pistol shrimp I assume. I have seen that clip linked to before as an analogy for how "anything is possible."
I can explain the mechanism in that clip though with a pretty high degree of confidence that I am right. The narrator says something about the collapsing bubbles producing temperatures hotter than the sun. I am not sure about that and even if it is true when you understand the full context behind that statement then it would not be as glamourous sounding as it seems to be. I won't spoil the magic unless someone asks me to explain it.
The best analogy for a transformer is a transmission. If this does not make sense to anyone the big clue is that there are two input variables and two output variables. Think about it.
MileHigh
MH
Quote:
I won't spoil the magic unless someone asks me to explain it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nahhhh...
Don't do that .
Google it .
and offer your advice to the 10 or 20 different universities, corporations or branches of the military
That are trying to figure it out.
Save it for them!!
Chet
Chet:
Strange posting you made. Would I be correct in assuming that you are implying that Google will come up goose eggs and you believe that it's a phenomenon that has eluded the best minds in academia and industry? Therefore I must be bluffing or wrong when I claim that I can explain it?
MileHigh
MH
NO NO NO.............
I am quite sure you can explain it
Just like you can explain
Life
electricity
Fire
Cavitation[as it applies to the BUG]
[and many other energy harvesting methods]BTW that's why they study the Bug
EtC.......
I really don't need the unexplainable explained by you.
Oh I know you have explanations.
I'll just Google it.
Thanks
Chet
@milehigh
QuoteAC, I am going to preemptively comment because I can anticipate what you might say. Your pitch is always "we don't really know everything that's out there and there are unlimited possibilities." Well of course we don't know everything that's out there which is proven by the fact that knowledge is advancing every single day. But there are not unlimited possibilities. As we learn new things we are not supposed to forget what we have learned in the past. We have learned a lot of stuff that tells us that certain things are impossible. We would be fools to ignore what we have learned and continuously spin our wheels getting nowhere. There is too much of an opportunity cost that we would have to pay if we kept our minds so open that we ignore what we already have learned.
For once I would actually agree, the past is as important as the present because one is the product of the other. However this leads to yet another question, how much of the past do you know? Did you know all this hubub about shorting the secondaries of a bifiliar coil in the forums was first documented by Lord Reyleigh in the scientific journals volume 1 in the early 1800's as a means to cancel the self induction of a coil? Or perhaps Maxwell in " The dynamical theory of the electromagnetic field" when he mentions the diamagnetic field which is impolar, that is a field which will expel all magnetism regardless of it's polarity. You see this is the problem, you say a transformer must act in a know way in which the outcome is always the same because this is all you know but this is not all there is to know. A diamagnetic field is not a material property it is field which can be generated just as a magnetic field, it should also be obvious that magnetic north and south poles are not opposites as both are magnetic poles and that a diamagnetic field is the only true opposite to a magnetic field as it is impolar. Did you know Maxwell eluded to this very fact in 1864? As such the standard rules for induction cannot apply as one magnetic pole is not interacting with another pole as dictated , one impolar field is expelling all polar fields. The list of odd effects documented in the original works of the greatest men of science just goes on and on, but you will never read this in the textbooks, you have to look for it.
QuoteAn electrical coil is just an electromagnetic version of a mechanical spring, but people can't see this if they don't have the background knowledge.
I mean no offense but your posts are like putting one record on the player and listening to it for the rest of your life --- after a while it just turns into a sort of background noise. In all your posts I have never read one single statement that I did not know years ago and that I could not find in any high school textbook, If you really want to impress us then tell us something we do not know, something that is at least half interesting. Concerning the analogy above-- and what if I could make this "spring" disappear at will with no cost in energy from the source as well as make it reappear at any point in the cycle of oscillations--what then?
Regards
AC
Quote from: MileHigh on 2010.01.24, 17:37:57
An electrical coil is just an electromagnetic version of a mechanical spring, but people can't see this if they don't have the background knowledge.
MileHigh
If this be the case then where does the inductive discharge fit in, in reagards to your mechanical spring analogy?
In many ways it may function like a mechanical spring, but to trivialise it as it being "just" the equivalent of a mechanical spring, and nothing more, I feel could be selling it short.
Ren:
QuoteIf this be the case then where does the inductive discharge fit in, in reagards to your mechanical spring analogy?
Suppose that you have one end of a strong spring affixed to the floor and you compress it. If you immediately release the compressed spring then the free end instantly flies off at high velocity. That's your inductive discharge and it's identical to the electrical coil equivalent.
QuoteIn many ways it may function like a mechanical spring, but to trivialise it as it being "just" the equivalent of a mechanical spring, and nothing more, I feel could be selling it short.
I am simplifying it in the sense that I am not considering the magnetic field or possible inductive coupling. However, a stand-alone electrical coil and a stand-alone spring with respect to their properties and behaviours and the energy dynamics and frequency dynamics are for all practical intents and purposes identical. A mechanical spring does not tap into "zero point energy" and neither does an inductor. You simply cannot get any extra juice out of an inductor.
MileHigh
I will tell yall what I dont know.
What happens when you pulse a coil like agentgates has offered up?
Just perhaps there is something to learn rather than to argue for limmits.
Perhpas some of us are too dumb to recognise those limmits imposed by the mere learned among us .
Perhps it is futile..but its very interesting
Theres some pretty smart guys here I would say..But if it is only education (memory test)..then that wont assist with the discovery of something that's " impossible" will it?
Quite the opposite is the case
Inspiration curiousity determination seem to be more important in this sand pit.
each little pulse creates a spinning field of some type . I dont know how useful it will be ..yet
I have noticed a health improvement but dare not link it to that swirling field. Im probably just excited!
best wishes to all
Lindsay
Lindsay
Glad your feeling the good Vibes!
Chet
If you take a large coil spring, like one from the suspension of a truck, and hit the end of the coiled wire with a hammer, the coil will vibrate without being compressed or stretched. Wish I knew if the impact force is magnified at the other end of the coil - probably not, but would be very interesting if it was.
Quote from: MileHigh on 2010.01.24, 17:37:57
A toroidal power unit (TPU) from what I understand is any variation on some sort of "motionless" power generation device that makes use of interacting magnetic fields and some sort of magnetic core material. There may be some external timing setup for switching the input source on and off and you hope to get more power out of the device than you put in. I believe that many devices make use of a system to regulate the magnetic flux so that the "flux switching" can somehow give you over unity.
I know that MagnaCoaster is pitching this concept and there are always TPU threads going on on the various forums. Magnacoaster never delivered.
To go back to basics, any TPU-style device based on magnetic flux switching in one form or other cannot output more power than you put into it. It all goes back to basic electromagnetics and Maxwell's equations and related stuff. Use the term "Laws of Nature" if you care.
Personally I never pay attention to any TPU threads because I know that they are all a waste of time.
energy convertion not power generation
no ferromagnetic core material
any magnetic flux detected was not caused by current directly input into the device, it is generated by the device itself
Most, but not all, of the TPU threads are a waste of time.
@milehigh
QuoteTo go back to basics, any TPU-style device based on magnetic flux switching in one form or other cannot output more power than you put into it. It all goes back to basic electromagnetics and Maxwell's equations and related stuff. Use the term "Laws of Nature" if you care.
It should also be known that Maxwell in most all of his original works states catagorically that all his equations are based on an isolated system and "NO" external fields or interactions are considered. Does this sounds like the --- "Laws of Nature" , it is most certainly not natural in any way and in fact Maxwell knew and understood this fact. He was wise enough to know there are no calculations which can accurately account for all external interactions thus the calculations were "simplified", Maxwell stated this fact because no credible scientist in his right mind would believe a system can be isolated from everything else. As well it was understood that internal energy forming resonant coupling with external energy sources would void all the calculations and any degree of accuracy. Maxwell was smart enough to understand the severe limitations of his work, the real problem however is when others take his work out of context and apply it in an absolute sense.
@Grumpy
Quoteenergy convertion not power generation
no ferromagnetic core material
any magnetic flux detected was not caused by current directly input into the device, it is generated by the device itself
I would agree, our present generators do not generate anything--they pump energy already present, as well I would agree that energy conversion, the conversion of something already present would not apply under the simplistic laws we know. I think there are many ways to do what we do better and I for one enjoyed the TPU threads as there was lots of new ideas and knowledge shared with others.
Regards
AC
A popular misconception of the TPU is that it is some sort of "you get more out than you put in" generator.
One of the greatest clues to the TPU is the inertial effect. Of course since we do not have a good understanding of inertia, this leads to more unanswered questions.
Hello all,
a word of warning if you allow:
dont pulse your coil(s) with frequencies below 1kHz!!!
This frequenies are very dangerous!!!
I hope you all working with such frequencies know what youre doing to your bodies!!
Otto
Otto
Thanks for the words of caution.
VERY APPRECIATED!!
Chet
Well I am assuming that this is a "freestyle" thread since Agent Gates has flown the coop so I will catch up...
Allcanadian:
QuoteDid you know all this hubub about shorting the secondaries of a bifiliar coil in the forums was first documented by Lord Reyleigh in the scientific journals volume 1 in the early 1800's as a means to cancel the self induction of a coil? Or perhaps Maxwell in " The dynamical theory of the electromagnetic field" when he mentions the diamagnetic field which is impolar, that is a field which will expel all magnetism regardless of it's polarity. You see this is the problem, you say a transformer must act in a know way in which the outcome is always the same because this is all you know but this is not all there is to know. A diamagnetic field is not a material property it is field which can be generated just as a magnetic field, it should also be obvious that magnetic north and south poles are not opposites as both are magnetic poles and that a diamagnetic field is the only true opposite to a magnetic field as it is impolar. Did you know Maxwell eluded to this very fact in 1864? As such the standard rules for induction cannot apply as one magnetic pole is not interacting with another pole as dictated , one impolar field is expelling all polar fields. .....
You can always come up with some obscure esoterica and somehow expect me to know about it, which I won't, or use it as part of your "we don't know everything" argument. I have never heard the term "impolar" in my life and your very posting came up first in the Google search. I just don't buy your overall argument at all.
QuoteIn all your posts I have never read one single statement that I did not know years ago and that I could not find in any high school textbook, If you really want to impress us then tell us something we do not know, something that is at least half interesting. Concerning the analogy above-- and what if I could make this "spring" disappear at will with no cost in energy from the source as well as make it reappear at any point in the cycle of oscillations--what then?
You are just gratuitously bashing me in the first part of the above statement. You will find the stuff in a college textbook, so there! A lot of people around here have very little electronics knowledge, so I repeat the basics sometimes - so shoot me.
What about your disappearing spring? What are you talking about? Just spill the beans.
Lindsay:
QuoteTheres some pretty smart guys here I would say..But if it is only education (memory test)..then that wont assist with the discovery of something that's " impossible" will it?
Education is supposed to mean much more than a memory test where you can spit back what you read in a book. I can tell you that I have looked at hundreds of clips where the person making the clip has no clue what is going on in their test and I make the effort to try to explain it to them.
Quoteeach little pulse creates a spinning field of some type . I dont know how useful it will be ..yet
In fact each pulse does not create a spinning field of some type. You know the drawing of the magnetic field of a bar magnet that they showed you in high school science class? That's what the field from a pulsed coil looks like.
QuoteInspiration curiousity determination seem to be more important in this sand pit.
I am all for that with one huge caveat that I will illustrate with a story: Your friend pulls up to the gas pump and goes to put diesel fuel into his regular gasoline engine car. You shout at him to stop, it won't work. He shouts back, "No way, look - trucks use it and it's just another form of gasoline and it's cheaper so I'm filling up with it." Is your friend "open minded" and driven by inspiration and curiosity, or is he just dumb for ignoring your advice and not knowing the difference between diesel fuel and gasoline? The same type of argument could be applied to those that believe that for some unexplained reason they have a hunch that inductors can be a source of energy.
MileHigh
More stuff from a curious mind....
Grumpy:
QuoteIf you take a large coil spring, like one from the suspension of a truck, and hit the end of the coiled wire with a hammer, the coil will vibrate without being compressed or stretched. Wish I knew if the impact force is magnified at the other end of the coil - probably not, but would be very interesting if it was.
Of course the spring is compressing and stretching after you hit it, you just can't see it. The impact force is not magnified, but it is delayed. When you first strike the top of the spring there is no force at the bottom of the spring at all.
Re: A TPU
Quoteenergy convertion not power generation
Could you explain that in more detail? What is a TPU supposed to do? What practical applications does it have?
QuoteOne of the greatest clues to the TPU is the inertial effect. Of course since we do not have a good understanding of inertia, this leads to more unanswered questions.
Can you explain this also because I haven't a clue what you are talking about.
AllCanadian II:
QuoteIt should also be known that Maxwell in most all of his original works states catagorically that all his equations are based on an isolated system and "NO" external fields or interactions are considered. Does this sounds like the --- "Laws of Nature" , it is most certainly not natural in any way and in fact Maxwell knew and understood this fact. He was wise enough to know there are no calculations which can accurately account for all external interactions thus the calculations were "simplified", Maxwell stated this fact because no credible scientist in his right mind would believe a system can be isolated from everything else. As well it was understood that internal energy forming resonant coupling with external energy sources would void all the calculations and any degree of accuracy. Maxwell was smart enough to understand the severe limitations of his work, the real problem however is when others take his work out of context and apply it in an absolute sense.
Whoa! Back into esoterica again. Forgive me for saying this but you claim that you are an engineer. I honestly don't get an engineering vibe from you at all. In engineering you want to simplify. What is the field like around an energized coil? It's based on the current in the wire and you have no interest in considering the influences of the cosmic background radiation.
Otto:
Quotedont pulse your coil(s) with frequencies below 1kHz!!!
This frequenies are very dangerous!!!
Why are you saying that? How come nobody else out there is curious about this one???!!! Most experimenters around here are taking a bath in EM radiation all the time. Almost all of the stuff that they play with will disturb TV and radio signals. People are pulsing coils at frequencies below 1 KHz all the time!
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on 2010.01.27, 01:53:23
Why are you saying that? How come nobody else out there is curious about this one???!!! Most experimenters around here are taking a bath in EM radiation all the time. Almost all of the stuff that they play with will disturb TV and radio signals. People are pulsing coils at frequencies below 1 KHz all the time!
MileHigh
Whats the matter MH. A lot of free time on your hands?
From your above statement I gather you haven't done much experimenting with frequencies approaching D.C. or maybe you are one of the majority less sensitive to lower pulse rates?
Otto's warning is a good one to be aware of for many folks.
@milehigh
QuoteYou can always come up with some obscure esoterica and somehow expect me to know about it, which I won't, or use it as part of your "we don't know everything" argument. I have never heard the term "impolar" in my life and your very posting came up first in the Google search. I just don't buy your overall argument at all.
Sometimes what many consider as obscure is common knowledge to others in any given field of study, I wasn't trying to stump you I just used some easy examples from memory to show that what many consider as rigid rules have limitations. The term "impolar" was a common term in electrodynamics during the time of Tesla,Ampere,Weber,Faraday,Hertz etc..., I prefer to use it in place of diamagnetism because it describes "what" diamagnetism is -- it expells all magnetic fields regardless of the polarity (North/South) thus it is an "impolar" field.
QuoteWhat about your disappearing spring? What are you talking about? Just spill the beans.
This was a question asked by most all of the greatest names in electrodynamics, who by the way had a complete contempt for there peers who quoted textbooks instead of performing research to find answers. Most everyone gives this common answer that a coil is like a spring or a lever or a transmission but the men who founded many of the laws of electrodynamics would not settle for the easy answer. They asked the hard questions and sought answers, for instance if inductance in a coil is like a spring then what if this spring could disappear then reappear at anytime in a circuit changing the inductance---what are the consequences of doing this. The answer opened a new field of study and technology you may know as Parametrics.
Regards
AC
WaveWatcher:
QuoteWhats the matter MH. A lot of free time on your hands?
What exactly is that supposed to mean?
QuoteFrom your above statement I gather you haven't done much experimenting with frequencies approaching D.C. or maybe you are one of the majority less sensitive to lower pulse rates?
Otto's warning is a good one to be aware of for many folks.
What are you really talking about here? I'm listening.
MileHigh
MileHigh, this may help on "Impolar" - http://en.allexperts.com/e/k/ka/karl_schappeller.htm (http://en.allexperts.com/e/k/ka/karl_schappeller.htm)
Look at this : http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2004/SamanthaCharles.shtml (http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2004/SamanthaCharles.shtml)
Pulses of low frequency start to affect the biological system in some very bad ways.. he was just saying be careful..
High voltage pulses longer than 10 microseconds can cause ill effects also.. prickley heat
Darkspeed:
I am too tired to read the first link but I will try to later.
For your second link you say:
QuotePulses of low frequency start to affect the biological system in some very bad ways.. he was just saying be careful..
The only thing that your link shows is a listing of brainwave frequencies, that's it. I cannot make any conclusions at all from that information. You may be drawing inferences for some unknown reason, and that way of thinking is likely a lot more dangerous than what Otto and WaveWatcher are suggesting.
MileHigh
I was giving an example of how specific frequency ranges can affect mood and to a greater extent the biological process of the body.
That page it will give reference to moods induced by frequency range in the brain. Artifically producing these frequencies can also produce these responses.
Quote from: MileHigh on 2010.01.27, 03:07:59
WaveWatcher:
QuoteWhats the matter MH. A lot of free time on your hands?
What exactly is that supposed to mean?
QuoteFrom your above statement I gather you haven't done much experimenting with frequencies approaching D.C. or maybe you are one of the majority less sensitive to lower pulse rates?
Otto's warning is a good one to be aware of for many folks.
What are you really talking about here? I'm listening.
MileHigh
Usually, I find it a waste of time to warn someone they are pumping the wrong fuel into their vehicle. I learned. They will too. You just always surprise me with your apparent enthusiasm when trying to correct folks.
On Otto's warning...
First, there are a fair amount of people sensitive to EM energy but frequencies from under 1kHz down to D.C. can cause problems in more than a few people.
Personally, I don't usually have problems with anything except high intensity pulses.
I have been asked what to look for. My response is normally.... mild disorientation or nausea while experimenting means it is break time. Morning-after headaches and/or white spots in your vision means you need to back off on power or time at the bench or find a new project.
Haven't had many lasting effects from short term massive bursts or capacitive discharges except for the feeling of being punched in the chest from head to toe :D
Of course, the books say there is no such thing as longitudinal EM propagation (even though it is known and used in waveguides and microwave cavities). I suppose you will be correcting me on that?
I don't disagree with most of what you say. I just don't understand why you say it so often.
No offense intended. When I do find something I can't explain I would like to have you on my side to help sort things out.
@milehigh
QuoteWhoa! Back into esoterica again. Forgive me for saying this but you claim that you are an engineer. I honestly don't get an engineering vibe from you at all. In engineering you want to simplify. What is the field like around an energized coil? It's based on the current in the wire and you have no interest in considering the influences of the cosmic background radiation.
I never had any ambitions to be an ordinary engineer, my goal was to find answers and real solutions to the problems we face, to be the best engineer. Actually in engineering it is exactly these "influences" that matter the most, a civil engineer cannot build a bridge without knowing every influence it may encounter, an electronics engineer cannot design a circuit without knowing the external influences which partially dictate component properties and parameters, in fact in many cases cosmic radiation due to solar flares must be considered as well transient radiations as EMP's in military service. There is nothing simple about any field of engineering -- we just make it look easy, that is our job.
QuoteThe only thing that your link shows is a listing of brainwave frequencies, that's it. I cannot make any conclusions at all from that information. You may be drawing inferences for some unknown reason, and that way of thinking is likely a lot more dangerous than what Otto and WaveWatcher are suggesting.
It should be understood that this is not a standard low voltage EM wave being considered and the effects are not even comparable. It you want to understand what we are talking about google--EMP Electromagnetic pulse, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse. Now try and look up the physical effects of EMP's, you will note there is basically no information on this subject and very little on EMP's themselves--- this is why we call this research. If you want to understand this even more in depth then read documents published by Nicola Tesla as he documented "all" these effects in detail almost 100 years ago.
Regards
AC
Hello all,
after 25 years working in a hospital I hope Im qualified enough to warn you as I did it yesterday.
Its well known that there are frequencies used for healing purposes and others that will cause disasters in your body. Im talking about frequencies below 1kHz.
You can take my information or not. Its only on you.
Otto
PS: maybe there is a list of this frequencies on the web?
All:
I posted here to make you all think about how context is everything. You simply can't make broad sweeping statements or big generalizations and claim that they are true. Otto has some sort of experience in a hospital that may be related to huge MRI or other huge machines that might consume tens or hundreds of kilowatts of power and let's assume he's right. The problem is that Otto's first posting gave no context at all about what he was talking about. People around here play with simple electronic circuits and small little experimental pulse motors, and that has noting at all to do with Otto's hospital experience. You have to frame your discussion with real tangible information otherwise what you are saying is almost meaningless.
Look at the brainwave example. Who said that a small bench setup powered by a 12-volt battery is going to affect your brainwaves? Who said that brainwaves can even be affected by low-level external magnetic fields such that they get "knocked" off their normal pattern from the external EM influence? Nobody said this at all. Darkspeed simply posted a link to a page that shows typical brainwave frequencies. Are we all just supposed to assume that there is a connection between brainwave patterns and external EM frequencies just because of a link that has absolutely nothing to do with this relationship? Of course the answer to this question is "no."
You should all be cautious about making conclusions about things like this just because somebody throws a link at you or just because somebody says something. In the context of what the typical experimenter is doing around here working on his bench, the "frequencies below 1 KHz are dangerous" and "your brainwaves can be affected" are NOT TRUE. You have to look at the whole picture. I have been around electronics for 30 years and these kinds of statements have never come up, ever.
WaveWatcher doesn't like my questioning what people say. In my opinion you should all question what others post if it does not smell right to you or you flat-out disagree or you think that the statement has no context and for all practical intents and purposes is pure disinformation. Taking the point of view that says "everybody can say anything and just take what they say at face value" is the wrong way to go. Then things become a nonsensical circus. Did any of you ever read posts by Innovation_Station on OU? They are almost always completely ridiculous nonsense.
WaveWatcher has stated that he can get nausea from his experiments. I got shocked from my car's ignition wire once and felt queasy for 20 minutes. So certainly the issue can arise, but in general for the average Joe Blow experimenter it is not an issue at all.
QuoteOf course, the books say there is no such thing as longitudinal EM propagation (even though it is known and used in waveguides and microwave cavities). I suppose you will be correcting me on that?
I don't know why you would say that the "books" say that. There are so many "bash science" or "science is stupid" old wives' tales around it is not funny. You try sitting through a course in microwaves and you might think differently. The harsh truth is that on forums like these, 99.9% of the comments by experimenters where they proudly claim that they are generating longitudinal waves are based on pure wild speculation, they have no clue what kind of waves they are generating at all. It just sounds cool to say that half of your experiments are generating longitudinal waves. Talking about microwaves and wave modes of propagation is for the big boys that do the real thing. In other words real microwave engineers. Just the math would be enough to make a typical experimenter around here curl up into a ball.
AllCanadian:
For people that design typical digital computer boards for PC or microcontroller applications, they don't worry about the "external influences" that you refer to at all. It's a different story for electronics to be used in space applications.
QuoteIt should be understood that this is not a standard low voltage EM wave being considered and the effects are not even comparable.
No I don't think that should be understood at all. I don't think the brainwave issue was meant to be about electromagnetic pulses from nukes. Plus the frequency issue becomes much more complicated when talking about an EMP. Perhaps you could educate us about that issue. You are simply going off into the stratosphere. I will repeat it again, I do not get an engineering vibe from you at all. I don't detect anything "engineering" in your postings, and I have read a lot of them.
Anyway, I hope that some of you got something from this posting. I encourage you to question each other all the time. Don't take somebody's word for it just because they said it. Avoid the "anybody can say anything" attitude because then this place can become a zoo. I can cite one example. One of the other forum operators sometimes makes postings about how a bouncing ball is an example of COP > 1 and no one ever challenges him. He is dead wrong and simply does not understand the physics and energy dynamics of a bouncing ball. I encourage all of you to think and question and learn, that's what this place is all about in your quest for over unity.
MileHigh
Totally agree MH
QuoteIn my opinion you should all question what others post if it does not smell right to you or you flat-out disagree or you think that the statement has no context and for all practical intents and purposes is pure disinformation. Taking the point of view that says "everybody can say anything and just take what they say at face value" is the wrong way to go. Then things become a nonsensical circus. Did any of you ever read posts by Innovation_Station on OU? They are almost always completely ridiculous nonsense.
And just to add that my personal feelings towards that pointless, bullshit posting Muppet, 'Innovation Station' over at OU, is that someone should long ago have discreetly taken him out to some back woods somewhere and put him out of his misery. Why Hartmann allows him to persist in his never-ending nonsense is quite beyond me... perhaps he's related!
Incidentally, regarding the sub 1KHz frequencies. My scope picks up our mains supply 50Hz AC quite easily, so I assume we are all being continually bombarded by 50 - 60 Hz on a daily basis.
Perhaps more specifics are required before anyone is in a position to form a rational opinion. I agree with MH, Otto's statement is too general to be either helpful or meaningful.
Can you elaborate Otto?
Added after following post:
Not sure exactly what you were getting at with that link Otto, but this sort of device and the marketing hype tends to set off my alarm bells: http://healthiswealthmaui.com/scalar_wave_laser.html
Hello all,
@MileHigh
so, you dont want to understand or what??
A few years I produced devices that could heal a lot of "disasters" but.....never mind.
http://www.healthiswealthmaui.com/laserfrequencies.htm
You maybe have "google"??? Then look for "healing frequencies" or something like this. Maybe you can find something useful?
Educate yourself because I dont have time and Im not willing to teach you!!
You all are warned now.
Otto
PS: I hope there is nothing to discuss anymore.
Otto:
I hate to tell you this but that web site that you linked to is a medical quackery/scam web site. I spent a whole two minutes clicking through it just to be sure and it stinks. It look like a multi level marketing scam also.
Sorry.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on 2010.01.27, 01:53:23
More stuff from a curious mind....
Grumpy:
QuoteIf you take a large coil spring, like one from the suspension of a truck, and hit the end of the coiled wire with a hammer, the coil will vibrate without being compressed or stretched. Wish I knew if the impact force is magnified at the other end of the coil - probably not, but would be very interesting if it was.
Of course the spring is compressing and stretching after you hit it, you just can't see it. The impact force is not magnified, but it is delayed. When you first strike the top of the spring there is no force at the bottom of the spring at all.
Re: A TPU
Quoteenergy convertion not power generation
Could you explain that in more detail? What is a TPU supposed to do? What practical applications does it have?
QuoteOne of the greatest clues to the TPU is the inertial effect. Of course since we do not have a good understanding of inertia, this leads to more unanswered questions.
Can you explain this also because I haven't a clue what you are talking about.
You are mixing apples with oranges. Hitting a spring on end of the wire (not the end of the coil form) does not cause the same mode of vibration as compressing (or stretching) and releasing. Same goes for hitting a tuning fork on top of the forks rather than the side. (There is also more than one mode of vibration when hitting the side of a tuning fork.) So, the analogy that a inductive coil is like a spring, is just an analogy and can have different interpretations. The question about whether the force is magnetified at the other end of the wire forming the spring is just a curiosity that I can't test for. When you hit the end of the top of the spring, the force travels longitudinally through the wire to the other end instantly. It is no different than holding a rod and striking the end, except that the wire is formed into a coil. The far end of the rod moves just as the end of the coil moves.
If you had jumped on the TPU Paddy Wagon a few years ago, you would be well aware of all of the hint and allegations made by Steven Mark. He stated that the TPU is NOT a free energy device and that it is an "energy covnersion device". He never explained what form of energy is converted to electricity, but since the output of the device is electricity, I assume that the unmentioned form of energy is covnerted into electricity.
The TPU is supposedly a device that converts an unmentioned form of energy into electricity that can power devices such as lights and appliances if used with an inverter. Wether or not the devices were entirely self-running is debateable, but no trickery has been exposed. Sure, they could be fake, but if you have seen the videos, it would be a very impressive fakery.
The practical applications of the TPU are unlimited energy for power whatever you want to power, be it your home, a factory, an automobile, or an airplane. By the way, after three years on this wagon, I am convinced that it is a real device and also that the Testatika Device uses similar methods.
Steven said that he was visited by a man from the US Atomic Energy Commission, and that they told him his technology was no longer his, that they had similr technology since the 1950's (US Navy), and that the devices were dangerous due to the explosive nature of device when looped back on itself somehow.
Some interesting clues have been provided along the way. Too numerous to go into details here. If you are really interested and open-minded, let me know.
Per the videos, and Steven's statements, there is a very real inertial effect occuring within the TPU that makes it feel as if "something" is rotating inside the device (which has no moving parts. I say this is the biggest clue ("most important clue" would be a better gramatical expression) because it is known that EM fields do have inertia be it very small or undetectable. Delve into the scrambled world of physics and you will find that we don't have a good handle on inertia, gravity, or reaction forces. In a nutshell, any change in energy or velocity produces radiation of some sort. This radiation transfers inertia and momentum. In instances where the rate of acceleration is changing, the forces get quite large.
The sweet part is that you do not have to actually move anything to get the goods, you only have to change it at a very fast rate, but youhave to change a lot of it at the same time or the effect is insignificant. For example: you don't have to accelerate electrons or other particles, but just knock the crap out of them. When people regurgitate the explanation that you pulse a coil and then stop the pulse before the current flows, they are correct to some degree, but lack a true understanding of the process which is in the rise of the pulse where the acceleration occurs.
Hi Grumps
It seems to me that like many other devices, many people simply assume that the inventor knows (or knew), what they were talking about.
I'm usually quite shocked by how many people accept the inventors scientific explanation as gospel. The inventor's explanation of the science involved tends to be the very first thing I doubt, especially given it appears to be an area of science that no one is fully conversant with. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge I don't believe I've read anywhere that SM was credited as being any kind of electronics genius.
If my garbage collector chanced on a novel way of tapping into radiant energy by throwing together a few coils and capacitors, I would not instantly dismiss his claims simply because he was a garbage collector. However, I would be extremely suspicious of he anything he said to explain the theory of operation of his device.
QuoteSome interesting clues have been provided along the way. Too numerous to go into details here. If you are really interested and open-minded, let me know.
Is open-minded with a liberal dash of common sense acceptable?
Quote from: otto on 2010.01.26, 04:52:43
Hello all,
a word of warning if you allow:
dont pulse your coil(s) with frequencies below 1kHz!!!
This frequenies are very dangerous!!!
I hope you all working with such frequencies know what youre doing to your bodies!!
Otto
This is not necessarily a reference to an EM effect. Otto is referring to a "pulse rate" below 1kHz not a sine wave or frequency. The frequencies in the pulse could be all over the spectrum and more indicative of a MW pulse than ELF.
So, if you are interested in these effects, Google something like:
pulses rate nerve function OR
tanscutanious nerve stimulation pulse rates
Quote from: Farrah Day on 2010.01.27, 14:30:18
Hi Grumps
It seems to me that like many other devices, many people simply assume that the inventor knows (or knew), what they were talking about.
I'm usually quite shocked by how many people accept the inventors scientific explanation as gospel. The inventor's explanation of the science involved tends to be the very first thing I doubt, especially given it appears to be an area of science that no one is fully conversant with. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge I don't believe I've read anywhere that SM was credited as being any kind of electronics genius.
If my garbage collector chanced on a novel way of tapping into radiant energy by throwing together a few coils and capacitors, I would not instantly dismiss his claims simply because he was a garbage collector. However, I would be extremely suspicious of he anything he said to explain the theory of operation of his device.
QuoteSome interesting clues have been provided along the way. Too numerous to go into details here. If you are really interested and open-minded, let me know.
Is open-minded with a liberal dash of common sense acceptable?
Steven explained early on that he couln not divulge how the devices worked or details of thier construction and that anything he said would be indirectly related. (Sorry, I can;t recall the exact term he used.)
See attached if you are interested in starting the TPU Journey:
With reference to Otto's post, without him providing further more specific details who can tell what it is a reference to?
He could have his own thread wherby we all spend months theorising on exactly what he's getting at!
It's akin to saying, 'crossing a busy road will kill you!'
Sure, we all know crossing a busy road might kill us if we are careless and hit by a truck. But we also know that crossing a busy road won't kill us if we observe a few rules, use some common sense and proceed with caution.
QuoteSteven explained early on that he couln not divulge how the devices worked or details of thier construction and that anything he said would be indirectly related. (Sorry, I can;t recall the exact term he used.)
Yep, they never can divulge their secrets can they? But given human nature, what I find even more strange is the fact that the secret never leaks out.
Don't you find that this is the rather convenient get out clause used time and time again by so-called inventors. Inventors I might add that tend to lead us excitedly down the long winding garden path only then to slam the gate in our faces! And no doubt laugh at us. 'Hee hee hee... you really fell for that... SUCKERS!'
For what it's worth, Bob Boyce is currently using this very tactic in the form of a NDA to avoid providing details of his apparently RE toroid winding. Not that I take anything he says with more than a pinch of salt... no actually I'm being too kind, I think he's full of shit!
Quote from: Farrah Day on 2010.01.27, 15:29:56
With reference to Otto's post, without him providing further more specific details who can tell what it is a reference to?
He could have his own thread wherby we all spend months theorising on exactly what he's getting at!
It's akin to saying, 'crossing a busy road will kill you!'
Sure, we all know crossing a busy road might kill us if we are careless and hit by a truck. But we also know that crossing a busy road won't kill us if we observe a few rules, use some common sense and proceed with caution.
QuoteSteven explained early on that he couln not divulge how the devices worked or details of thier construction and that anything he said would be indirectly related. (Sorry, I can;t recall the exact term he used.)
Yep, they never can divulge their secrets can they? But given human nature, what I find even more strange is the fact that the secret never leaks out.
Don't you find that this is the rather convenient get out clause used time and time again by so-called inventors. Inventors I might add that tend to lead us excitedly down the long winding garden path only then to slam the gate in our faces! And no doubt laugh at us. 'Hee hee hee... you really fell for that... SUCKERS!'
For what it's worth, Bob Boyce is currently using this very tactic in the form of a NDA to avoid providing details of his apparently RE toroid winding. Not that I take anything he says with more than a pinch of salt... no actually I'm being too kind, I think he's full of shit!
Otto's post and warning was directed to people that DO know what he is talking about.
Secrets always leak out.
Boyce claimed he was struck by lightning in the palm of his right hand. If this actually occured, then he is not full of shit.
If you do nothing more than read post and make posts then it doesn't matter what you believe.
I apologise if I offended you Grumps, it was not my intention.
QuoteOtto's post and warning was directed to people that DO know what he is talking about.
Fair enough... who exactly is that then? And what about the danger to the rest of us that haven't got a clue?
Quote
Secrets always leak out.
Yep, might point exactly... but not it seems in the case of SM's TPU!
Quote
Boyce claimed he was struck by lightning in the palm of his right hand. If this actually occured, then he is not full of shit.
You really don't know much about him do you? Actually, he claims to have been hit by lightning twice - maybe three times now. He claims to have nearly died when exposed to some secret military bacteria released in the aftermath of hurricane Andrew, was also dying of cancer in 2004, has had a car running solely on hydroxy on demand before the MIB told him to 'stop'. He has been Verichipped, not once but twice, and now has terminal cancer for a second time... Grumps, you're fully entitled to your own opinion, mine is, he's full of shit!
Quote
If you do nothing more than read post and make posts then it doesn't matter what you believe.
Pardon me I'm sure, but isn't that how these forums work, or is there some posting etiquette I'm not observing here? :)
Quote from: Farrah Day on 2010.01.27, 17:34:45
I apologise if I offended you Grumps, it was not my intention.
QuoteOtto's post and warning was directed to people that DO know what he is talking about.
Fair enough... who exactly is that then? And what about the danger to the rest of us that haven't got a clue?
Quote
Secrets always leak out.
Yep, might point exactly... but not it seems in the case of SM's TPU!
Quote
Boyce claimed he was struck by lightning in the palm of his right hand. If this actually occured, then he is not full of shit.
You really don't know much about him do you? Actually, he claims to have been hit by lightning twice - maybe three times now. He claims to have nearly died when exposed to some secret military bacteria released in the aftermath of hurricane Andrew, was also dying of cancer in 2004, has had a car running solely on hydroxy on demand before the MIB told him to 'stop'. He has been Verichipped, not once but twice, and now has terminal cancer for a second time... Grumps, you're fully entitled to your own opinion, mine is, he's full of shit!
Quote
If you do nothing more than read post and make posts then it doesn't matter what you believe.
Pardon me I'm sure, but isn't that how these forums work, or is there some posting etiquette I'm not observing here? :)
Otto was just saying that pulsing your coils with a repetition rate below 1kHz appears to be unhealthy. He did not give specific details. Tesla was the first to correlate pulse repetition rate to physical effects in the body, such as warmth and pain.
See this for a TPU Information Leak: http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=45.0
I used to talk directly with Mr. Boyce about his ring, but no, I do not know him very well. I doubt that you know him any better than I do. He may very well be "full of it", but he knows more than the average bear - else he would not know that lightning striking the palm of the right hand has significance. ;)
My point is that people are bashing Otto for making a statement that they misinterpreted.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2010.01.27, 18:15:01
Otto was just saying that pulsing your coils with a repetition rate below 1kHz appears to be unhealthy. He did not give specific details. Tesla was the first to correlate pulse repetition rate to physical effects in the body, such as warmth and pain.
According to Gerry Vassilatos, the parameter that had an effect on perceived sensations from exposure to the pulsed energy, was actually the pulse width, not the pulse repetition rate.
Also, I strongly urge all to consider that pulsed energy at ALL frequencies could be harmful to your well-being. Don't be fooled by the notion that "if I can't feel anything then it must be safe", as that is ridiculous.
Recommending that folks stay away from pulsed energies in the range below 1kHz is like implying that exposure to microwaves is safe.
Use common sense folks!--exposure to
all high-powered transient type energies are likely harmful (regardless of frequency) and should be avoided.
.99
Electrophysiology.—Some further particulars are to hand with regard to the experiments by M. Leduc on alternating electrostatic currents.
THE ELECTRICAL ENGINEER, JULY 28, 1893. 77
When an electrostatic machine is worked and a series of sparks apparently continuous
pass between the knobs, the conductors are, as is well known, subject to variations of potential—in fact, to electric vibration. These vibrations are utilised by M. Leduc to produce other alternating or vibratory currents. If a Leyden jar is suspended by a rod from its inner coating to each of the conductors of the machine, and the external coatings of the two jars are connected by a high-resistance circuit, the internal coatings become part of the conductors. Electric vibrations of reverse nature take place at the same instant of time on the two inner coatings, one rising as the other falls, and the vibration is communicated to the outer coatings, so that on the circuit connecting them a vibratory current is set up. The resistance between the outer coatings should be such that the total capacity of the Leyden jars is proportioned to the output of the machine, If, for instance, the two coatings are connected by a circuit of negligible resistance, the conductors (of which the coatings form part) having too large a capacity, the sparks become intermittent, and a vibratory current in the true sense of the word is not obtained. But with a high resistance between the external coating, oscillatory discharges could not be produced between these coatings. The experiments were carried out with a Wimshurst machine having two glass plates 2ft. diameter. The vibratory currents obtained by the means of electrostatic machines have properties similar to but not identical with those used by Mr. Tesla. Conductors carrying these currents become luminous, and, under good experimental conditions, give from their whole surface brushlike discharges differing much in intensity and other characteristics from those of electrostatic electricity. By varying that form of the conductors and by bringing other conductors near, very varying and very beautiful luminous effects are produced. The best arrangement to carry out this experiment consists in putting one of the external coatings to earth and connecting the other with a hanging chain in contact by a point with the base of the machine. If the hanging chain of the preceding experiment is covered with an indiarubber tube, and this tube is taken in the hand, it becomes luminous as if phosphorescent by the production of short brush discharges, in the form of an aura between the hand and the tube ; the sensation is not painful. If a Tesla tube is brought near to the free conductor, it lights up at a considerable distance away, and if the balls of the exciters are separated so as to suppress the alternations while increasing the tension, the tube becomes dark, and must be brought much nearer to light up again. An incandescent lamp bulb suspended on the free conductor becomes luminous, and its luminosity increases if touched. This lamp and the india- rubber tube itself are both strongly attracted by a conductor in communication with earth—by the hand, for instance. The same experiment made with static electricity gives an attraction followed by a repulsion, while with these vibratory currents only attraction is produced. These high-tension alternating currents obtained with static machines are noticed to have, as we have already mentioned, a great effect on the sensory and motor nerves. One electrode is sufficient. A blunt metallic point is used, mounted on a glass handle, attached to the free chain of one of the external coatings; this point moved over the skin, when passing a motor or sensor nerve, excites the nerve throughout its whole distribution beneath the electrode. The sensation throughout the region covered by the nerve is so plain that it allows the distribution to be mapped out. MM. Pellat, Gariel, and D'Arsonval verified these experiments of M. Leduc. But the experiment which caused the most interest and surprise was the production of muscular contraction at a distance by the aid of currents themselves produced in the human body by induction. The observer being placed between the machine and a live frog, if he moves his hand near to the frog as if to point at it with his forefinger, even at the distance of so much as a yard away, the muscles begin to contract. If the hand is moved nearer or farther away, these movements are inscribed on the myograph by this new kind of galvanoscope.
Quote from: poynt99 on 2010.01.27, 18:40:01
According to Gerry Vassilatos, the parameter that had an effect on perceived sensations from exposure to the pulsed energy, was actually the pulse width, not the pulse repetition rate.
correct - thanks
--------------------------
0.1 millisecond duration (exceeding):
produced pain and mechanical pressures
objects visibly vibrated and even moved as the force field drove them along
Thin wires, exposed to sudden bursts of the radiant field, exploded into vapor.
100 microseconds or less:
Pain and physical movements ceased
1.0 microsecond duration:
strong physiological heat was sensed.
Further decreases in impulse brought spontaneous illuminations capable of filling rooms and vacuum globes with white light. At these impulse frequencies, Tesla was able to stimulate the appearance of effects which are normally admixed among the electromagnetic energies inherent in sunlight. Shorter impulses produced cool room penetrating breezes, with an accompanying uplift in mood and awareness. There were no limits in this progression toward impulses of diminished duration...
Impulses of 100 microsecond duration (or shorter) passed through all matter (except the collector coil), a fitting form of electrical energy to broadcast throughout the stone, steel, and glass of a power-needy city.
Formulas:
Wavelength = c / frequency
period = wavelength / speed of propagation (light)
period = 1/f
1 microsecond (1 μs) is the cycle time for frequency 1 MHz, although comparison to frequency is not really relevant in GK's application, it implies that a half-wave rectified 1 MHZ signal would get the job done with sufficient signal amplitude.
------
There are several scenarios one must take into account when designing very high frequency circuits. By high frequency I mean fundamental clock frequency (>1MHz), or rise or fall times of the order of few nano seconds or less. However, it is also possible clock signals with clock frequencies much less than 1MHz, and rise and fall times in the nano seconds range could have Fourier spectrum extending all the way in the hundreds of Megahertz range or even higher.
@milehigh
QuoteNo I don't think that should be understood at all. I don't think the brainwave issue was meant to be about electromagnetic pulses from nukes. Plus the frequency issue becomes much more complicated when talking about an EMP. Perhaps you could educate us about that issue. You are simply going off into the stratosphere. I will repeat it again, I do not get an engineering vibe from you at all. I don't detect anything "engineering" in your postings, and I have read a lot of them.
LOL, milehigh you never cease to amaze me, T.H Moray once said " I cannot prove anything to anyone who will not prove the matter for themselves", he was a very wise man.
@Poynt99
QuoteAccording to Gerry Vassilatos, the parameter that had an effect on perceived sensations from exposure to the pulsed energy, was actually the pulse width, not the pulse repetition rate.
Also, I strongly urge all to consider that pulsed energy at ALL frequencies could be harmful to your well-being. Don't be fooled by the notion that "if I can't feel anything then it must be safe", as that is ridiculous.
Recommending that folks stay away from pulsed energies in the range below 1kHz is like implying that exposure to microwaves is safe. Use common sense folks!--exposure to all high-powered transient type energies are likely harmful (regardless of frequency) and should be avoided.
I would agree we have to use common sense, as well we should understand the nature of what it is we are dealing with. You hit the nail on the head with your statement--"exposure to the pulsed energy, was actually the pulse width, not the pulse repetition rate", it is not frequency it is the rate and magnitude of change which can be one single pulse. Consider the EMP weapon here--http://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb.htm/printable --- this is pure Tesla, a capacitor is discharged into a stout conductor (a coil)which is what Tesla was doing. Next the capacitor discharge produces massive current flow in the coil in KA(kiloamps) when the current peaks explosives detonate and the conductors are accelerated to velocities in the many KM/second range, this will compress the massive magnetic field in the coil and produce amperages in the MA (mega-amps) millions of amperes in the coil in a matter of nanoseconds. The magnetic pulse is massive and produces a massive rate of change in any conductors which we call induction . The actual physical effects related to this technology are not only obscure but almost non-existant, they include disorientation, dizziness, head aches, muscle cramps, loss of vision, spots in vision, blurry vision, prickly sensations on skin and hot flashes ---- it should be noted that Tesla also documented most all these effects almost 100 years ago.
If this does not instill fear it should, consider that in a simplistic sense this device could be built using mostly household items I will not mention for obvious reasons. The actual mechanism was well documented by Tesla but can also be understood easily by Faraday's law's of induction. Faraday stated induced voltage is a product of the rate and magnitude of change, the induced voltage can produce electric currents. What Faraday did not know was that if the rate and magnitude is excessive then the EM pulse can induce a potential difference or voltage not only on conductors but also insulators which Tesla also documented. Consider that our body is 90% water and our nervous system and brain are electrical in nature. It is absurd to think an EMP can induce thousands of volts in conductors miles away but have no effect on our bodies which are 90% water which is conductive, while our experiments may be smaller in scale our close proximity and the high rate of change in spark gaps or switches can have short and long term effects on our body. It is also interesting to note a Faraday cage or shield is completely useless in regards to this type of radiating emission, the shield is simply charged and re-emits the EM pulse and does not constitute any kind of protection.
Regards
AC
lolololololololol
Hmmmmmmmm. Have you ever pulsed a coil and wondered hey, is this coil being pulsed or is this coil pulsing me???????
If I had a second parallel life, I would spend it with a big electron microscope and many types of bacteria, viruses and other pathogens. I would put one on the lens, see it close up while I sweep through a frequency generator just to see at which frequency it will blow up, while not blowing up a regular blood cell. An Italian inventor did something like this many decades ago. It was mentioned by @GK. I think his name was Dotto. Anyways, when you understand that all living things require an osscilation at a certain frequency, you will also understand that all outerside frequencies will effect the living also.
During how many millions of years has biology survived without pulsing one single coil. Now, only since 100 years we have frequencies surrounding us, microwave ovens, TVs, Cellular phones, and by the same token, we have higher and high sicknesses. None of that is proof but none of that is not proof either.
Anyways, one day when you pulse a coil and notice your stomach cramping, then stop pulsing the coil and the cramps stop, then pulse again and cramps start, maybe you will realize we are not made of cement and steel.
Mile high
Consider repeating the experiment I did back in the 70s. Use incrementing voltages for your safety. Its a recent post in discharge effects on copper and skin thread. head coil pulser!
be careful, youll get the picture, we're not magnetic or are we?
Steve
QuoteDuring how many millions of years has biology survived without pulsing one single coil. Now, only since 100 years we have frequencies surrounding us, microwave ovens, TVs, Cellular phones, and by the same token, we have higher and high sicknesses. None of that is proof but none of that is not proof either.
So-called biology will always survive, because it will adapt.
Incidentally, the Victorian life expectancy was on average around 40 years, so I don't see that it has done us a great deal of harm!!
From Grumps:
QuoteI used to talk directly with Mr. Boyce about his ring, but no, I do not know him very well.
If you were in the UK you wouldn't have worded it quite like that as here in the UK a 'ring' is slang for an 'arsehole'. Fair enough, perhaps we are in agreement after all!
Szaxx/Steve:
I'm perfectly cool. The whole point is to provide enough information to give whatever point you are making the proper context so that it makes sense. That something that the free energy scammers never do, and for some reason the believers seem to thrive on that. Without enough information the speculations can run wild and stoke the fires and keep the buzz going. When is Energy from the Vacuum #26 coming out?
AllCanadian:
When in a tight spot a few patronizing comments and feigned laughter can work wonders, don't you think? I have seen that before on many an occasion. Speaking of quotes, there is a famous Lloyd Bentsen quote that comes to mind with respect to your engineering prowess.
MileHigh
Agent gates has he done it?...
Lindsay,
show us your signals and I will tell you if agentgates has done it.
Otto
Grumpy:
QuoteYou are mixing apples with oranges. Hitting a spring on end of the wire (not the end of the coil form) does not cause the same mode of vibration as compressing (or stretching) and releasing. Same goes for hitting a tuning fork on top of the forks rather than the side. (There is also more than one mode of vibration when hitting the side of a tuning fork.) So, the analogy that a inductive coil is like a spring, is just an analogy and can have different interpretations.
Your initial description was not clear enough and I misunderstood you. A recurring theme, no? lol The short simplified answer for you would be that the spring in this case wold resonate like an LC resonator. The mass of the spring is the "C" and the stiffness of the spring is the "L."
QuoteWhen you hit the end of the top of the spring, the force travels longitudinally through the wire to the other end instantly. It is no different than holding a rod and striking the end, except that the wire is formed into a coil. The far end of the rod moves just as the end of the coil moves.
If you are going to be very precise here, the force does not travel to the other end of the spring instantly. The instant that you hot the top end of the spring, there is zero force at the other end. The big clue is that the spring is like an inductor here and the force through the spring is like the current flowing through an inductor. The instant that you connect a voltage source across an inductor, the initial current through the inductor is zero. Think about that for a while.
QuoteIf you had jumped on the TPU Paddy Wagon a few years ago, you would be well aware of all of the hint and allegations made by Steven Mark. He stated that the TPU is NOT a free energy device and that it is an "energy covnersion device". He never explained what form of energy is converted to electricity, but since the output of the device is electricity, I assume that the unmentioned form of energy is covnerted into electricity.
"Unmentioned form of energy" doesn't work for me. In my case when the explanation for the "guts" of a device sounds strange and unusual or unconvincing, then I simply simplify - surround the device in a "black box" with inputs and outputs. You don't care about the guts inside the black box, the only thing that you care about is the input and the output - the results. One of the very sobering black box thought experiments is for almost any type of pulse motor. You surround the pulse motor with a black box and what do you get? The input is electrical energy and the output is heat energy. That's it - no "mechanical output", no "efficiency" - not much really. It may be counter-intuitive but a spinning pulse motor is no different from a resistor from that perspective.
Quote
The TPU is supposedly a device that converts an unmentioned form of energy into electricity that can power devices such as lights and appliances if used with an inverter. Wether or not the devices were entirely self-running is debateable, but no trickery has been exposed. Sure, they could be fake, but if you have seen the videos, it would be a very impressive fakery.
The practical applications of the TPU are unlimited energy for power whatever you want to power, be it your home, a factory, an automobile, or an airplane. By the way, after three years on this wagon, I am convinced that it is a real device and also that the Testatika Device uses similar methods.
The above doesn't work for me but I encourage you to take the "black box" approach to see if these devices really do anything useful.
QuotePer the videos, and Steven's statements, there is a very real inertial effect occuring within the TPU that makes it feel as if "something" is rotating inside the device (which has no moving parts. I say this is the biggest clue ("most important clue" would be a better gramatical expression) because it is known that EM fields do have inertia be it very small or undetectable. Delve into the scrambled world of physics and you will find that we don't have a good handle on inertia, gravity, or reaction forces.
I disagree with your characterization of physics and inertia, gravity, and such. If it felt like "something" was rotating inside the device then you should be able to observe some gyroscopic effects.
Anyway, thank you for your answering by my questions but it all sounds hocus-pocus to me personally. Don't let that stop you from investigating and keep the "black box" testing method in mind. You are stating that some parties are alleging that a TPU can be an unlimited source of energy so the black box test can confirm or deny that easily.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on 2010.01.28, 11:49:40
Grumpy:
QuoteYou are mixing apples with oranges. Hitting a spring on end of the wire (not the end of the coil form) does not cause the same mode of vibration as compressing (or stretching) and releasing. Same goes for hitting a tuning fork on top of the forks rather than the side. (There is also more than one mode of vibration when hitting the side of a tuning fork.) So, the analogy that a inductive coil is like a spring, is just an analogy and can have different interpretations.
Your initial description was not clear enough and I misunderstood you. A recurring theme, no? lol The short simplified answer for you would be that the spring in this case wold resonate like an LC resonator. The mass of the spring is the "C" and the stiffness of the spring is the "L."
everyone know that hitting the end of a rod produces a longitudinal wave in the rod - not your typical LC resonator - Eric Dollard made a nice video that illustrates teh difference between transverse and longitudinal wave propagation using analog computing circuits. Naudin replicated this here: http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lmdtem.htm
Quote from: MileHigh on 2010.01.28, 11:49:40
QuoteWhen you hit the end of the top of the spring, the force travels longitudinally through the wire to the other end instantly. It is no different than holding a rod and striking the end, except that the wire is formed into a coil. The far end of the rod moves just as the end of the coil moves.
If you are going to be very precise here, the force does not travel to the other end of the spring instantly. The instant that you hot the top end of the spring, there is zero force at the other end. The big clue is that the spring is like an inductor here and the force through the spring is like the current flowing through an inductor. The instant that you connect a voltage source across an inductor, the initial current through the inductor is zero. Think about that for a while.
The term "instntanious" depends on how precisely we want to split hairs so to speak. When you hit the end of rod, the other end does not respond unitil the energy moves through the rod. Is the rod also like an inductor? As for a real inductor, the initial current may be zero in the conductor, but there is a lot going on outside the conductor. Think about that for a while. ;)
Quote from: MileHigh on 2010.01.28, 11:49:40
QuoteIf you had jumped on the TPU Paddy Wagon a few years ago, you would be well aware of all of the hint and allegations made by Steven Mark. He stated that the TPU is NOT a free energy device and that it is an "energy covnersion device". He never explained what form of energy is converted to electricity, but since the output of the device is electricity, I assume that the unmentioned form of energy is covnerted into electricity.
"Unmentioned form of energy" doesn't work for me. In my case when the explanation for the "guts" of a device sounds strange and unusual or unconvincing, then I simply simplify - surround the device in a "black box" with inputs and outputs. You don't care about the guts inside the black box, the only thing that you care about is the input and the output - the results. One of the very sobering black box thought experiments is for almost any type of pulse motor. You surround the pulse motor with a black box and what do you get? The input is electrical energy and the output is heat energy. That's it - no "mechanical output", no "efficiency" - not much really. It may be counter-intuitive but a spinning pulse motor is no different from a resistor from that perspective.
Like I said above, there is a lot that goes on before the current flows.
Quote from: MileHigh on 2010.01.28, 11:49:40
Quote
The TPU is supposedly a device that converts an unmentioned form of energy into electricity that can power devices such as lights and appliances if used with an inverter. Wether or not the devices were entirely self-running is debateable, but no trickery has been exposed. Sure, they could be fake, but if you have seen the videos, it would be a very impressive fakery.
The practical applications of the TPU are unlimited energy for power whatever you want to power, be it your home, a factory, an automobile, or an airplane. By the way, after three years on this wagon, I am convinced that it is a real device and also that the Testatika Device uses similar methods.
The above doesn't work for me but I encourage you to take the "black box" approach to see if these devices really do anything useful.
I did. It does.
Quote from: MileHigh on 2010.01.28, 11:49:40
QuotePer the videos, and Steven's statements, there is a very real inertial effect occuring within the TPU that makes it feel as if "something" is rotating inside the device (which has no moving parts. I say this is the biggest clue ("most important clue" would be a better gramatical expression) because it is known that EM fields do have inertia be it very small or undetectable. Delve into the scrambled world of physics and you will find that we don't have a good handle on inertia, gravity, or reaction forces.
I disagree with your characterization of physics and inertia, gravity, and such. If it felt like "something" was rotating inside the device then you should be able to observe some gyroscopic effects.
Anyway, thank you for your answering by my questions but it all sounds hocus-pocus to me personally. Don't let that stop you from investigating and keep the "black box" testing method in mind. You are stating that some parties are alleging that a TPU can be an unlimited source of energy so the black box test can confirm or deny that easily.
MileHigh
Yes, the term "gyroscopic" was used to describe the effect. Like I said before, a review of the physics of inertia, gravity, and reaction forces reveals that "strange things are afoot at Circle K".
If you spend about three years cross-referencing everything, it adds up nicely.
EDIT:
fixed quotes
@milehigh
QuoteThe short simplified answer for you would be that the spring in this case wold resonate like an LC resonator. The mass of the spring is the "C" and the stiffness of the spring is the "L."
I would think just the opposite would be true, consider the inductance (L) of a coil, it will resist the applied current and it will resist changes in the applied current, that is if the current is reduced the inductance will resist this reduction thus inductance has the property of inertia. A capacitance (C) will act as a proportional resistance, that is the resistance is proportional to the voltage on the capacitor in relation to the applied voltage, when both are equal resistance has peaked.
If we start compressing a spring or set it in motion the mass of the spring will resist being set in motion and also want to keep moving in the direction of force once set in motion, thus the mass has the property of inertia and acts as an inductance would. The applied force in compressing the spring will also be opposed by the stiffness of the spring but this stiffness is unidirectional and does not have the property of inertia, the stiffness of the spring will always resist the applied force but the stiffness does not oppose the release of the applied force thus it does not have inertia and acts like a capacitance. Tesla as well as many others have stated this fact, that the mass is equivalent to inductance and resiliency to capacitance. Once the spring is set in motion as natural resonant oscillations then energy is simply interchanged between the kinetic and potential forces as inductance and capacitance.
Regards
AC
coil spring graphic:
I think G. is saying longitudinal wave traveling the path of the helix and not a compressive wave on the spring causing it to store potential energy
@Grumpy
Ah, my last post did not consider the longitudinal forces in any way and was based on what we may consider as the normal forces involved in a spring, the forces you are considering are completely different from my analogies. In your picture I think a primary consideration is the one not present, the "fixed points" which will always dampen and distort any free natural oscillations. Electrically these may include the surrounding media, the source relationship and common ground points. If we consider any electrical analogy in regards to LC oscillations then we have to define the limitations of the analogy, if we consider only the longitudinal oscillations present in the spring then "C" should represent a resilient boundary condition which is the entire surface area of the spring including the end surface of the spring which reflects wave energy back to the source. The "L" component should be represented by a condition which has inertial qualities such as the internal mass of the spring which is also the mechanism of propagation. We should also address the distinction between vibration and oscillation as they are two completely different things :).
Regards
AC
OK Gents...
get a metal rod - hold it in a bucket of water and tap theend with a hammer
Might be hard to see, but what happens to the water?
-----------------------
Here is an image to help clarify things:
@Grumpy
Damit Grumpy why do you always have to make everything so simple and logical?, I think I may have just learned something----thanks
Regards
AC
This is a nice link:
http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/waves/wavemotion.html
if you smack the rod real sharp you can get a sort of radiant-looking effect rather than a wave effect - looks like the bucket even bulges and vibrates