Not that i should be taking on another project, but this one is hard not to be getting involved in :)
Parts ordered so far.
FABRICATION 200mm DIA.x 10mm CLEAR ACRYLIC 1.00 £14.85
4 x top & Bottom plates 383mm Dia X 5mm Disc Fl.Blue,Perspex 7t97 Neptune Blue, Fluorescent Acrylic Disc CODE:057T97383DISC £3.45 each
Magnets Neo 20mm x 10mm x 20off £1.15each,Neo 20mm x 5mm x 10 £6.40 for 10, Neo 3mm x 4mm x 25 £3.60 for 25, Ceramic 20mm x 5mm x 10 £2.46
http://www.shop4tools.co.uk/acatalog/Neodymium_Magnets_Disc_Sphere_Block_Gold_Silver_Magnets.php
Bearings Router * 3 8mm ID, 16mm OD £2.97 each
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300549195928&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:GB:1123
Bridge Rectifier KBPC606 £6.99 for 10
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160577119255&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:GB:1123
10 x TIP42C TIP42 POWER TRANSISTOR PNP 100V 6A $3.99 for 10
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250545174915
5 pcs A3144 A3144E OH3144E Hall Effect Sensor $2.79
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270744612314
1N4007 DIODES X 50 £1.34
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290567739109
25 Sewing Machine Bobbins $4.99 for 25
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320611626627
18mm & 20mm drill bits Didnt work used Flat wood bit instead
18mm £4.37 20mm £4.58
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Power+Tool+Accessories/HSS+Drill+Bits/HSS+Blacksmith+Drill+Bit+18mm/d80/sd1250/p22649
Go for it Peter ;)
Thanks for taking on this project!
.99
Cheers for the encouragement Darren
Strange really i enjoy building motors/generators, but have not done anything since the window motor by Mike, It makes for a refreshing change.
First i have dropped renovations on my new house to build a bench in my garage :) time to have a break from the mundane reality of real life LOL and put just a couple of evenings a week towards this project although i am sure it will be more.
I made some modifications to my Pulse CPU board today and knocked it up on pcb cad, this will work for a turns counter for bobbin winding and will double as a RPM display, i also added 2 of Romerouk s driver pcb boards.
The thing that concerns me is that i am not in a position like Romero to have a large number of scrap PSUs for the ferrite rods, i know that everyone is cutting up ferrite rod, but that could deviate the working parameters enough to crash a replication.
I can lay my hands on 1 core from a psu, so i am now wondering whats involved in scoping the BH curve against a standard ferrite rod, not done any research on this yet so not sure whats involved, then i can try buying new inductors with cores or try cutting standard rod and check the curves are the same.
Hi Deepcut
Thanks for the info, still not worked out the ferrite yet.
Some are in Dollars because they are Hong Kong, but i have found the post as good if not better than UK post sometimes, i didn't spend to much time looking for bargains, but at a glance my supplier seemed reasonable.
Still waiting for the disc to arrive yet, and building a bench in my garage so i can move my bench press to home.
Once i am setup in a couple of days i will use some old perspex to try drilling the hole for the bearing, once i work the best solution i will let you know, my bearings are 18mm and the magnets are 20mm, I do not have a drills this size, i have been wondering how good a wood borer would do the job
(http://www.rexcrystal.co.uk/imageresize.php?n=/media/I756&w=200&h=200)
I have loads of these, but i will try it first on an old piece of perspex, if this doesn't work then plan B is to buy the proper sized drill bits.
I also cannot see a problem with using a hole saw, not sure i understand why you are having problems here as they are really just drill bits with the hole saw bolted on, again i would need to test, so in a couple of days i will let you know how it goes and which method i adopted.
The hardest bit is going to be getting a clean hole C.C
I will still use a drill press to try and keep the hole square as i drill through.
Yeah Clanzer does some amazing builds, that guy should open a museum ;D
Waiting for loads of parts and none have come so far >:(
Well today i had the rotors arrive, there should have been 4 x 5mm larger discs as they were on special i thought i would use 2 for top and 2 for bottom, only 1 arrived Grrrrr, so they are shipping another 3.
I have the diodes 1n4007 not yet sure wether to use 1N4001 instead, personally i cannot see there being much difference but i will need to do some checks.
I decided to try drilling the 18mm holes and 20mm holes using conventional drill bits, i will test the process on an old piece of perspex, the drill bit's should come in handy anyway, i thought they were pretty cheap for what they are, i got them from tool station and have added them to my parts list on the first post.
The work bench is nearly done.
I've also researched an article about plotting BH curves for the power supply inductor, this way i can be sure to only use cores that Romero used by comparison of the curve.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=865.msg14348#msg14348
Here's a quote i found on a technical website regarding inductors in a PC PSU
QuoteIt is not a ferrite. It is a DC choke, made from powdered iron
I am not sure if this is toroidal or the one we want.
I have been looking at photo's on the net and not yet found a straight inductor, only toroidal forms so far.
I need to try and get my hands on a broken psu to see more closely.
From what i have read so far, it appears very unlikely to be of ferrite composition and much more likely to be of iron composition.
The one on the left is the beast i am after i think.
(http://www.darfon.com/English/Images/Power/Inverter/b3.gif)
No waiting on aisle 5...
Wrap 22awg on a piece of iron garden wire by the visual model of the picture.
Also!
The magnets spinning is not the answer. Nor are spinning the biased coils. There has to be a flux cutting going on in the system. It relates to time. Magnets fields spinning by each other do not give the highest of frequency. Think about this: if you cut the flux or 'Cancel the flux' then on reconnection you have very, and I mean very, very high speed magnetic impulse against a steady state magnetic field. Think about that! Otherwise the system is based on collapse of a coil field. This is slow! You want speed of the highest timing and caliber. And the flux is free! If you want overunity why not start with overunity? How long have the refrigerator magnets been stuck to your refrigerator door? Hello?
For the visual viewers we have a field compressed against an aluminum plate. As the plate spins there is an opening coming around. When the opening lines up with the magnetic field the field physically expands onto the coil across from it. We are talking shockwave here. Then the flux supply is cutoff. The system now is a state of repair or gaining a new balance. The approach that this thread is taking doesnt have the speed compared to what I reference here. The field just sliding by doesnt perform the same as the cutting of the flux.
Where is the steady state magnetic field? It is the same magnet that gets shocked as its flux reconnects and is disconnected. Trap that!
Now the build in this thread needs a small modification. An aluminum disc with holes smaller in diameter than the magnet or core diam. Squeeze the flux. The new disc does not need to spin just place between the rotating disc and the static disc. This is now the flux cutter. Pretty simple. Just get some aluminum ducting and cut the new piece out.
The build as it stands now has a continuous field immersing the coils. There is always a level upto saturation we are competing with.
Thanks for your thoughts GK but this is a replication of Romero's device and for now the objective is to stay as close to the build as possible.
GK,
If there is indeed flux cutting going on it is done with the coils. That is just long enough to allow the approaching rotor magnet to be attracted to the core in the coils. Once the rotor magnet is a little past center - the coils are turned off.
You like spinning, slotted aluminum thingies. I like stomping on a rotten bananas ;D
When the coils are turned off that rotor magnet is where it isn't wanted and it shoots out the other side. Good reason to only have two drive coils ;) And good reason to have a fair amount of mass in the rotor :)
This isn't a Muller and it isn't new.
Just my 2 cents. I haven't made a deposit lately C.C
The other 3 perspex discs arrived today that were missing, still need my bearings and magnets yet before i plan to drill.
I etched the circuit boards this morning, 2 driver boards and 1 RPM counter/Bobbin Turns counter, i will drill these out tonight.
I am going to use M8 threaded rod for my shaft, i might just go with one bearing on the rotor and bolt the threaded rod to the top and bottom discs, i could bolt the rotor and use 2 bearings for the top and bottom plates but this would give me twice the bearing friction and am not really sure if i need to do this, once the bearings arrive i can judge how much if any play there is and make a final decision.
The thing i do not get is that Romero used all 3 bearings, 1 for rotor and 2 for top and bottom plates WHY?
EDIT Magnets just arrived and it looks like the 20mm x 10mm are out of stock as they have been put on back order GRRR
I am surprised how weak the ceramic are, they barely stick together.
So here are the 20mm x 5mm ceramic and Neo's with the little 3mm hall trigger magnets
Well it's certainly been an experience tonight.
PCBs are drilled, but when it came to the rotor, i pilot drilled 2mm holes using a paper template for positions which i taped to the disc, this went well and was easy.
When it came to the 18mm hole, i tried an old piece of perspex first and i could not get a normal drill bit to cut evenly, the angle of the blade is all wrong, so this is a no go with drill bits.
Next up i tried a wood paddle hole cutter, this was much better and i think the result maybe OK, not sure how true these holes will be, they look OK, but having practised a 20mm hole for the magnets the hole was slightly too big, so maybe i will try to get hold of a 19mm bit and a 17mm bit for the bearing.
I also realized tonight that there is no way i can drill the centre hole on my top and botton plates using my bench press because the diameter is too big to allow me to reach the centre once on the drill rest plate, I am not too worried about this hole so will use my hand drill as the top and bottom plates don't need to spin up and be dead centre.
I Got the 2 top 2 bottom and rotor drilled tonight after plenty of practise, i ended up making a mistake on one rotor so glad i had 2 in the end.
The thing with the wood flat bits is to avoid them oscillating as they cut, if they oscillate at all then the hole will be over size, i ended up using a 19mm bit for the 20mm magnets and then reaming slightly with a 20mm bit, this worked well.
I thought i had 18mm OD bearings but they turned out to be 16mm, this was easier than the 19mm using a flat wood bit.
So that was the rotor done.
For the top and bottom plates i had 4 x 5mm large disc's, i G Clamped the lot together and pilot drilled with 3mm holes, i then drilled all coil mounts with 6mm holes and put the 4 holes around the perimeter edge using 8mm drills, the center hole was a real problem, i couldn't reach it on my bench press drill so had to use my hand drill, this was almost disastrous, as EM found out, it grabbed and cut very poorly, i think this was because i could not hold the drill true, anyway the center hole is a bit rough and slightly chipped as it went through all 4 plates, but because i am using this hole to bolt either side a M8 threaded rod and the rotor bearing will be in the rotor it does not matter so much.
I now need to work out how to securely mount the bearings in the center of the rotor and still allow myself to bolt the M8 threaded rod to the center of the bearing also, i think i need a sort of 8mm sleeve to fit over the M8 threaded rod each side of the bearing and bolt this together, and then maybe glue discs either side giving clearance to the sleeve but secure the outer part of the bearing to the rotor, i am going to need to use glue i think and will need to be carefull not to get this in the bearing workings.
Couple of pics
Nice work Peter.
Hey, if it doesn't end up working, you'll at least have a beautiful conversation piece to admire!
Good luck with the build.
;)
@peterae
QuoteThe thing i do not get is that Romero used all 3 bearings, 1 for rotor and 2 for top and bottom plates WHY?
Friction, if the rotor is spinning at 1000 RPM then a single bearing must spin at 1000 RPM but with 3 bearings the rotor bearing may spin at 500 RPM and the spindle bearings at 500 RPM for a total of 1000 RPM. This means the two sets of bearings run at one half the normal RPM which does not reduce friction by one half but much more because friction does not rise at a linear rate. Spin a bearing twice as fast under load and the friction could rise 8X which is why paying attention to every little detail is so important.
When you build this device attach a magnet under the base of your stand to repel another magnet attached to the bottom of the spindle, this will cause the spindle to "float" vertically and remove the axial loading on your bearings leaving only a very small radial load if the rotor is balanced properly. You will find the rotor will spin not twice as long but over four times as long because the "load" is in fact the weight of the rotor not the radial component.
Regards
AC
Cheers Darren
Certainly looks good so far, although i would prefer it to work than look good ;D
That's interesting Allcanadian, well i still have the option of drilling the top and bottom plates to take bearings.
Well the sewing bobbins arrived today, they are 20mm diameter with a 6mm hole in the middle, this all matches so far, they are about 10mm high, the winding area is about 6mm x 9mm giving 54mm² now 7x0.125=0.875mm² so therefore i can wind a max of 61 Turns :(
I think theres no doubt in my mind he didn't really know the turns number because i definitely have the correct sizing for the bobbin.
Thanks for that link DeepCut looks very handy for a variety of materials at good prices
Quotehttp://www.mindsetsonline.co.uk/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=ferrite&x=0&y=0&osCsid=bclt0uk6arfjnan2hd41tsnj00
I have just been looking over the information on those 20mm x 5mm Ferrite magnets i bought, i could not work out why they were not sticking together very well, anyway looks like this is the reason.
QuoteMagnetised with a multi-pole magnetic pattern on one face
So am i reading this right that they have North and South poles on 1 flat face? WHY
It seems to be the same for all the ones i have found so far on eBay, I wonder if this is what Romero used (Doesn't make sense to me)
QuoteWell the sewing bobbins arrived today, they are 20mm diameter with a 6mm hole in the middle, this all matches so far, they are about 10mm high, the winding area is about 6mm x 9mm giving 54mm² now 7x0.125=0.875mm² so therefore i can wind a max of 61 Turns Sad
Romero got it right maybe i just did the calculations wrong.
I put 7 strands of 0.125 wire together and twisted it to bind it together, i then proceeded to wind onto these little sewing bobbins and blow me i ran out of wire at 270 turns, need to start again and make a slightly longer length this time round and ditch the wire on this one.
300 Turns will fill the bobbin just how it is in his pictures :)
300 Turns of 7 strand 0.125mm wire :)
Only 17 to go :'(
EDIT i have now moved this to a public bench for all to view my build.
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.08, 17:10:46
Romero got it right maybe i just did the calculations wrong.
...............
300 Turns will fill the bobbin just how it is in his pictures :)
Don't feel bad. I have never seen a formula or calculator that was anywhere near accurate for determining wire length needed, when it comes to Litz and most common wire.
The same goes for calculating inductance of some coils. I just use the 'extra & trim method'. 'Less & stretch' only works if you have a wire stretcher ;D
WW I must say stretching it didn't occur to me ;D
I Will try measuring it's inductance tomorrow
Thanks DeepCut
Yeah i hear ya, luckily my rotor could fit OK for drilling the center on the press, the only one was on the top and bottom plate center hole which was not easy with a hand drill, but didn't really need to be to accurate.
weekend ;D
Unfortunately i move slower than a snail with my builds, i only get about 1 hour a day if i am lucky and maybe 1 or 2 evenings to work on it.
Anyway i am still waiting for the rotor magnets which they put on back order and the hall sensors are shipped from Hong Kong So it will take me some time yet.
I made another 3 coils this morning, and i ended up using 2 of my bearings in the rotor, i super glued these in nice and tight, then used a mini CD glued on top, this worked out well as it's hole was just the right size to give my nuts Clearence but enough overlap to hold the bearing in place also, so the bearing wont be coming loose any time soon.
Here's the coils details without a core
2.85 Ohm Series resistance
52.08 Ohms impedance at 10kHz with a Q factor of 18.202
827.6 Micro Henrys inductance.
I still need to also get my hands on an old computer psu and see if i can get one of the cores to map the B-H curve.
PS i work weekends :'(
Why build a Tachometer when they are soooo cheap :)
So i have one on the way.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Digital-Laser-Photo-Tachometer-Non-Contact-Rpm-Measurer-/170619680138?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item27b9b9b58a
Oh no it's too late :-\
was it faulty or just a bad design?
Will do O0
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.08, 21:02:05
WW I must say stretching it didn't occur to me ;D
I Will try measuring it's inductance tomorrow
You don't have a wire stretcher?
I have one sitting next to my copper magnet and box of carburetor bearings :D
When you measure the inductance do it with and without the magnet ;)
:)
QuoteWhen you measure the inductance do it with and without the magnet ;)
WW with or without a core, i am still trying to find a source of the correct cores :(
The 2 drive coils are a different construction to the gen coils, the coil that's triggered from the rotor hall consists of 2 or 3 strands of much thicker wire, where as the driver coil that is triggered from the periphery magnets is single stranded thick wire, I think i remember him saying he got this from some monitor scan coil, well as far as i can remember they don't use multi strand, so he made this himself, i think it's fair to assume that both driver coils use the same wire and this would mean there are 2 or 3 times the turns for the single stranded coils.
Peterae,
Without a ferrous core you won't see much difference in measurement. Maybe a few percent.
I've been looking at chokes from SMPS's in my junk box.... I have quite a few.
What is supposed to be the difference between a common ferrite rod from... say a radio antenna and a choke core from a PS?
The only thing I can think of would be intended operating frequency. Maybe you could use common choke cores and run the motor at 300,000 RPM ???
No, don't try that :)
The chokes I have pulled from power supplies seem to be more like glass than ceramic. I also suspect they have a higher iron content.
Do you have an actual description or type for these cores?
Hi WW
One manufacturer said they used iron powder, and another said they were high saturation so i am not really sure, but if the use iron powder then that could maybe make a lot of difference.
Wow loads of parcels coming in today :)
I now have everything apart from cores.
I built the driver pcb's and the driver coils, i used 2 strand 24 swg for 1 pair of driver coils, and single strand 24 swg for the other pair, the construction seems to fit quiet well with the closeup pictures of Romeros coils.
I have glued the washers in place and have made 6 gen coils so far.
Next up i will glue the magnets in place on the rotor and hook an led on the driver boards to see where each driver gets triggered.
Rotor is now finished, electronics checks out.
Using an led i have the halls working, i was surprised that the large magnets need to be within 3cm to trigger the hall.
With my magnets south facing up, and the hall aligned over the south face so that it's switched off, i can confirm there is a strong North field between the magnets as the rotor spins it turns the hall on, like wise if i align the hall face to turn on at a south face it turns off in between the magnets.
Some pictures of the build so far, Wow that multi strand wire i made is virtually impossible to solder cleanly
Peterae,
it looks very nice, you do good work. Is the rotor Plexiglas?
If it is please be careful running it at high speeds because the disk can crack! I just did some rough calculations and it made me think twice about using Plexiglas for the rotor. I'm changing mine to other materials.
I'll post the calculations on my bench.
EM
Hi EM
Thanks for the advice, i made a thick barrier that drops around the periphery each time its spun up O0
I suggest everyone think about doing the same, if you cast your minds back to playing on a roundabout as a kid and the seemingly difficult task of moving into the center as it spins at very low revs, it brings it home the forces that are involved but much much greater
The magnets also will be carrying a lot of energy so make sure they are glued in place.
Peter,
It will be interesting to see if you get the conventional Lenz drag effect when trying to load the generator coils. If there is a key, it is to bypass or mitigate the Lenz effect, and seemingly, this is what Romero has accomplished, even without the additional biasing magnets.
The folks at OU call this "speed under load". If indeed anyone has achieved this, then they may well be close. Do we know if anyone has indeed achieved the so-called "speed under load"?
.99
There will be plenty of tests to do, i have 4 moving iron meters, voltage and current for live monitoring of input and output parameters.
I've not really had much time to follow all of whats going on at OU, so am not really sure if someone has posted a video of the increase under load, maybe EM or someone can answer that a bit better, i know they have been talking about tuning with caps and i had seen a video that did speed up under load with the cap added.
Still a lot to do yet, i will glue the little hall magnets tonight, and do some wiring.
It may have been this video by keykhin:
Yeah that was the one, but not sure if they have done it with the motor config i am building, which for me is the key at the moment.
Guys are we working in attraction or repulsion mode.
The reason i ask is because i copied his coils by looking at the direction he wound the top and bottom coils, i then followed where the wires go and connected my coils exactly the same to the driver with my rotor magnets south pole up and testing the periphery driver under power i get clockwise rotation just as he does but the coils are working in repulsion mode not attraction.
Now surely i have this correct having studied his connections and coil winding directions correct, just to prove this look at the periphery hall photo he supplied, the hall is slightly to the left of the driver coils and given he starts the rotor clockwise then it would not work if the mode was attraction with the hall on the left of the coils.
(http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=827.0;attach=5134)
I suspect you are in attraction mode as the rotor magnet approaches the coil cores. Then, as the rotor magnet goes beyond the coil axis you will be in repulsion mode.
Have you figured out how he accounts for a Hall-Effect looking at the edge of the rotor AND at the main rotor magnets? It looks to me like he has two sensors per drive coil.
I know the second one isn't on the schematic.
Yes what i am getting is when the coils are off the rotor is attracted to the cores and as it passes it triggers the hall and repels it past. Not having cores yet i used 2 M6 bolts
Not sure what your other comment means, there's 2 hall sensors, 1 that's triggered by the rotor magnets and one that's triggered by the periphery magnets.
There's definitely not 2 halls per drive coil pair. Iver studdied the video many times.
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.13, 20:55:31
Yes what i am getting is when the coils are off the rotor is attracted to the cores and as it passes it triggers the hall and repels it past. Not having cores yet i used 2 M6 bolts
Not sure what your other comment means, there's 2 hall sensors, 1 that's triggered by the rotor magnets and one that's triggered by the periphery magnets.
There's definitely not 2 halls per drive coil pair. Iver studdied the video many times.
I see now.
Why would one drive coil be triggered by a Hall_effect sensing the larger rotor magnets and the other drive coil triggered by a Hall_Effect monitoring the periphery?
Never mind. I think it is time for a re-read.
Romero used two coils with Hall sensor as a motor and the other seven for collection.
To me, this throws up a red flag. Do you really think you can drive with two and collect more with seven? Come on... Give me a freakin' break!!! Some people will sell the farm for 2:1 :D :o
That issue aside, I expect rotation to be CCW to tap ambient aether rotation, and a static-electric-like field to develop between the magnets and coils, as the aether density is increased. I'd give 10:1 on a good day. If you want the "Full Montey" spinning around, you got the get all that crap out of the way. Spin the fluid not the mass.
Whoopy doo...
You were closer with the crackles, Peter. Damn close. (We always viewed those events from a different perspective...)
You gents are pissing OU down the fuckin' drain. WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!!
QUIT PISSING IN THE WIND!!!
Spherics gave you 20 fuckin' years of research and development, 2 decades! and you throw it out with yesterday's news!
Yyyyyyyepppppp...
Put another way:
How is this device here going to achieve greater that 2k rpm without self destructing? It is either the addition of money or mass. Add mass and the whole device parameter changes due to greater losses. Add money to buy better materials and you'ld better know the operation parameters and meticulous design and object placement parameters before you cut any of the expensive materials. Then you have bearing issues and so on ad infinitum... The simplest fix was to add a flux window to sharpen the pulses cheaply which is the flux cutting solution. This would cut down the need for higher rpms.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2011.06.14, 03:15:27
Romero used two coils with Hall sensor as a motor and the other seven for collection.
To me, this throws up a red flag. Do you really think you can drive with two and collect more with seven? Come on... Give me a freakin' break!!! ...
The blind don't need to see. They are happy to believe light does not exist!
cheers
chrisC
There is a top Hall sensor over the rotor magnets.
Quote
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3842.msg284787#msg284787 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3842.msg284787#msg284787)
Reply #247
The 2 driving coils are running independently, not activating at the same time, that is what I need, to have the second coil activating when the other one is completely off
Quote
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3842.msg284851#msg284851 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3842.msg284851#msg284851)
Reply #291
Let's clarify some points regarding the sensors:
not both of them are using the small magnets.I started originally with both using the small magnets to switch then I tried to move one to get max results. The second one is facing the big magnets from the top.This one from the top is activated after the magnet passed, the other one on the side of the rotor is activated like 1mm after the magnet passed the center coil.
This is difficult to explain, testing yourself will get you there but do the testing separate not both of then at the same time.
G Wake up, This device has been shown to work and is easy to build, we have the plans and circuits.
If you are saying this is a fraud without first building it and understanding how it works then that is the wrong way, There is so much more going on when this motor rotates.
Not sure what all the confusion is about, there are 2 coils per drive, 1 top , 1 bottom coil, these are in series and driven from a TIP42C which is triggered from a hall sensor.
The are 2 of these circuits, 1 hall is triggered from periphery magnets, and also another which is triggered from the big rotor magnets.
(http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=827.0;attach=5134)
(http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=827.0;attach=5136)
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.14, 08:00:34
G Wake up, This device has been shown to work and is easy to build, we have the plans and circuits.
If you are saying this is a fraud without first building it and understanding how it works then that is the wrong way
...
I don't think so. We are not here to build motors that work. The conventional technology makes thousands working motors every day. We are here to build free energy devices. And in order to duplicate so-called free energy devices, the inventor must first give all technical details and show sufficient experimental evidence.
"This was a big fake, stop replicating"
Romero, May 10
This is Peterae's replication of the Romerouk motor, not a TPU or slotted fluxgate motor.
I was convinced before that this replication was the only public one that may be an actual replication. Now that I've had access to read the history on this motor, I am totally convinced this is the only real current replication. Allow Peter to continue.
GK,
I would suggest you start a separate thread on the slotted aluminum disk idea but hope you don't waste much time or money on it. I did. Short of using high-end plasma physics and magnetic reconnection theory you will not switch flux off and on and the rotating aluminum will only act as an Eddy brake. There are no MEGs that work because the only way to stop the 'flow' of a 'magnetic current' in a ferrous loop is to intersect it orthogonally with another ferrous loop and magnetic current. Funny, if Bearden replaced his control coils with an orthogonal iron loop which included a control coil, that mess may work.
Basic magnetic and electrostatic amplifier theory. Esoteric but both are facts.
G,
I also suspect any possible and useful ether vortex will be CCW. If that is true and ether has anything to do with this motor then the rotor should turn CW. Nobody knows where extra energy may come from. Many are convinced what some call 'ether' is simply several commonly known forces and energies simply being separate manifestations of one thing.
Ex,
I have only one comment for you. Keep your consistent negativity and insults off of peoples benches.
Sorry Peter.
Feel free to delete this post if you wish.
Cheers WW
It's a refreshing change to be able to build a motor.
It will travel it's course, i have started the replication and am not far away from having everything i need to finish it, so i will continue
OK found a source of cores from Ferroxcube 6mm x 25mm so will need to cut the length down, i also have a broken psu waiting at a friends ready to pick up, i will then be able to compare core characteristics.
Have we worked out what the function of each Hall sensor is for yet?
The side Hall for firing the 2 drive coils, and the top Hall for ?
.99
Hi Darren
The top hall also fires another 2 coils (Top and Bottom) but it uses the magnets on the rotor to trigger, i wont know the fire timing until i connect that one up later.
OK here's a picture that shows the 2 hall sensor positions, each sensor is circled in Green with the top disc's drive coil in purple
In the picture the top sensor is the periphery and at the bottom of the picture you have to hall that senses the rotor magnet, you can see the relative postion of the sensor compared to the drive coils clearly although to get exact positioning i zoomed into different parts of the video
Look at this.
Romero said he used two of the coils as a motor and the other seven as a generator:
Hmm,
So there may be something "covert" going on here; it doesn't really make sense, unless I am missing something.
Have you been able to trace where the wiring of each Hall sensor goes?
Thanks,
.99
Indeed i have traced the wires and even got the coils connected up just as he has, and this leads to believe that both set's of coils are working in repulsion mode.
I need to test the rotor hall out first, but the hall itself is wrongly aligned to trigger from the rotor magnet, it's standing up whereas if it truly was triggering correctly from the rotor magnet it would have 1 of the flat faces parallel to the magnet face but it is 90 degrees from this, my theory is that it also works in repulsion mode and pushes the magnet that went through the drive coils ahead of time so therefore what i am saying is that the rotor magnet that triggers the hall is not the magnet that is pushed away from the drive coils it's the magnet that went through before or should i say the magnet that is ahead on the rotor position that gets pushed away, we are coming back to this virtual north idea of EM's which i already proved exists between each south facing magnet.
Anyway i will test this out tonight and see when the rotor magnet triggers.
@ wattsup
Where did that diagram come from stating one coil repells and the other attracts, was it from Romero directly?
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.14, 14:17:28
Indeed i have traced the wires and even got the coils connected up just as he has, and this leads to believe that both set's of coils are working in repulsion mode.
So where exactly do the wires for both Hall sensors lead to?
I would not assume that Romero has the Hall positioned "incorrectly". He may indeed have it that way on purpose.
.99
Quote from: wattsup on 2011.06.14, 13:47:14
Look at this.
Good catch wattsup.
Peterae,
Yes. The radial proximity of magnet to sensor means nothing. He may have been forced to install a periphery sensor because the position needed was already taken by a coil.
EM realized the 'virtual' (his word) vertical field between magnets and coil sets. To break Lenz between approaching magnet and coil set there should be two more 'virtual' fields. These will not induce current into the coils because they are horizontal and radial.
The bucking radial fields between both poles of the rotor magnet and the opposing generator magnet. I think this is why the motor rpm does not drop under load and why it only takes two motor coils.
Don't forget the large flat surface of the hall senses north and the small triangular edged face of the hall senses south(i hope i have those the right way round) but he places the rotor hall standing up with reference to the rotor triggering magnet, this means the hall will not trigger when directly above the magnet because the hall will neither be sensing a north or south field, only when the magnet approaches will the hall trigger, anyway i will publish the test later on, and at this position it will be the magnet in front that's closest to the drive coils and it will be these that get repulsed away, this is why i am question wattsup diagram saying the rotor hall and coil is working in attraction mode.
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.14, 14:59:07
Don't forget the large flat surface of the hall senses north and the small triangular edged face of the hall senses south(i hope i have those the right way round) but he places the rotor hall standing up with reference to the rotor triggering magnet, this means the hall will not trigger when directly above the magnet because the hall will neither be sensing a north or south field, only when the magnet approaches will the hall trigger, anyway i will publish the test later on.
That would be ideal for sensing the radial field ;)
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.14, 14:59:07
Don't forget the large flat surface of the hall senses north and the small triangular edged face of the hall senses south(i hope i have those the right way round) but he places the rotor hall standing up with reference to the rotor triggering magnet, this means the hall will not trigger when directly above the magnet because the hall will neither be sensing a north or south field, only when the magnet approaches will the hall trigger, anyway i will publish the test later on, and at this position it will be the magnet in front that's closest to the drive coils and it will be these that get repulsed away, this is why i am question wattsup diagram saying the rotor hall and coil is working in attraction mode.
The position of the Hall sensors in Romero's setup is purely for convenience. The important point is at TDC, the sensors are mutually exclusive. Get pass the sensors. They are not that important in the overall scheme of things. Seemed like all these (head) knowledgeable people who have tried and done grandiose TPU and 'rings of fire' stuff these past few years and still have not produced a shred of O.U is stuck at some lowly level! Open your mind!
cheers
chrisC
QuoteSo where exactly do the wires for both Hall sensors lead to?
I would not assume that Romero has the Hall positioned "incorrectly". He may indeed have it that way on purpose.
I am not saying his hall is positioned incorrectly, i am saying i think it is positioned to drive in repulsion mode not in Attraction mode as wattsup stated.
Each hall connects straight to the PCB driver board which he has 1 for each hall, this is the circuit which uses the TIP42C as the driver transistor, each of these then connect to the coil pair that drives the rotor.
QuoteThe position of the Hall sensors in Romero's setup is purely for convenience. The important point is at TDC, the sensors are mutually exclusive. Get pass the sensors. They are not that important in the overall scheme of things. Seemed like all these (head) knowledgeable people who have tried and done grandiose TPU and 'rings of fire' stuff these past few years and still have not produced a shred of O.U is stuck at some lowly level! Open your mind!
Chris what are you on about TDC this is miles from how Romero has his setup?
The rotor Hall will not even trigger anywhere near TDC at least not from the magnet that's anywhere near the hall sensor, but as i have said before i will have this running tonight and will post the exact firing position.
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.14, 15:43:52
Chris what are you on about TDC this is miles from how Romero has his setup?
The rotor Hall will not even trigger anywhere near TDC at least not from the magnet that's anywhere near the hall sensor, but as i have said before i will have this running tonight and will post the exact firing position.
Peterae: I should have made it clearer, it's the TDC of the Romero small circular magnets (or in my case small rectangular ones) glued to the rim of the rotor. Mutually exclusive firing is important. Good luck with your build.
cheers
chrisC
OK Chris yes that's the easy one to work out, can i ask are you working using Repulsion or Attraction mode, i am trying to find out what everyone is using for their build.
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.14, 14:17:28
@ wattsup
Where did that diagram come from stating one coil repels and the other attracts, was it from Romero directly?
No, I just grabbed this image this morning and prepared it before I left for work. I was viewing the Romero video and this just jumped out at me.
Listen all, there is no way that a hall sensor placed before a drive, hence it sees the magnet approaching the drive coils can do anything immediately at that same instance but to be in attraction mode.
Then for the other hall sensor that is placed at the edge of the wheel at TDC to the other pair of drive coils, there is no way this can be used for anything other then repulsion. One attracts, one repulses. Hmmmmmm. Sounds like a few of my former girlfriends. lol
Working out the polarities is a mere technicality.
Romero placed those hall sensors through a drilled hole from the top plate, so he had to have previous tests done to know where they should be placed. If you are making a hole for a hall sensor, make the hole elongated to give you some elbow room for finer adjustments.
wattsup
So the yellow text was already on the frame saying repulsion and attraction and this was directly from Romero?
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.14, 15:59:53
So the yellow text was already on the frame saying repulsion and attraction and this was directly from Romero?
No, none of this is from Romero. It is from me. I grabbed the image, added all the text and posted it like you see it. I do not need Romero to tell me how the natural physics of magnet movement works. Just were the Hall Sensors are placed says it all.
wattsup
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.14, 15:51:09
OK Chris yes that's the easy one to work out, can i ask are you working using Repulsion or Attraction mode, i am trying to find out what everyone is using for their build.
Pete: Here's a pic. of my hall sensor flat on a small board and positioned right TDC below the rectangular magnet. My rotor magnets are all N facing up. Just make sure the other sensor is right between two rotor magnets so they fire mutually exclusive. Then you're OK.
cheers
chrisC
But there is something else to this.
In the attraction mode, I would pulse the first drive coil of the pair so the pulse starts at the coil exterior winds. This puts the field instantly outside the coil so it can attract the approaching magnet. Then go to the second drive coil pair again from the outside inwards.
In the repulsion mode, I would pulse the first drive coil of the pair so the pulse starts at the coil interior at the core itself. This puts the strongest field at a pin-point near the TDC to repulse the magnet away from the drive. Then go to the second drive coil again from the inside.
To accomplish the above, you may need to turn your coils around and not just switch wires. I had been trying to explain this ever since this started but @MH kept on insisting I was a dreamer.
It is very simple. Nothing in this build endeavor should be permanent until and the facts are known. All you need is a compass and a DC power supply to figure it all out and get the coils oriented properly and connected properly.
wattsup
Added:
I forgot about this.
The pulse that starts on a drive coil pair on let's say north side of rotor, then the pulse on the other coil pair should start on the south polarity. Meaning one coil pair receives the pulse from the top coil first while the other drive coil pair receives the pulse from the bottom coil first. This is because when you pulse two coil in series, the second coil will never have the same field strength as the first coil in the pair and in order to keep the motive energy one both polarities equal. Otherwise the rotor may start to wobble.
You can test this very easily by using only one drive coil while the second is not mounted but still in series. See how fast you can get the rotor to turn. Then try it by switching the wires around. Then try it by turning the mounted coil to the other side, then again by switching the wires around. Everything you try has to be in fours otherwise you are working in the dark.
But for all intents and purposes, guys have to realize that the coil have to ends. Near core end and far core end. Then they have two polarities. Then they have two coils per drive set, all making for known variables.
wattsup
Thanks for the view Chris, just to say that you are triggering from the opposite side of the hall, this does not mean much really apart from you need your trigger magnets the opposite polarity to what Romero used, but your biggest problem will be the amount of time your hall is on, Romero used very small magnets and therefore the hall will only be on for a very short period thus making the efficiency much higher, also your trigger magnets align with the main rotor magnets so you may get interference from these, Romero was very clever in that he used the main rotor magnets to cancel a proportion of the little magnets field either side of the trigger point, this make the hall on period even smaller, you can tell he must of spent a lot of time building motors to acquire all these little bits of knowledge to put into this motor, i suspect the main rotor hall will be Even craftier. Time to go and test
Good luck with your build Chris theres so much to learn here from Romero.
EDIT
One other thing, the periphery hall is not dead center to the rotor magnet firring position it is positioned just left by almost the width of the coil see picture below
(http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=827.0;attach=5134)
you can also see it's position in this aerial view, the top one is the periphery hall and you can easily see it's not dead center
(http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=862.0;attach=5320)
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.14, 17:05:48
Thanks for the view Chris, just to say that you are triggering from the opposite side of the hall, this does not mean much really apart from you need your trigger magnets the opposite polarity to what Romero used, but your biggest problem will be the amount of time your hall is on, Romero used very small magnets and therefore the hall will only be on for a very short period thus making the efficiency much higher, also your trigger magnets align with the main rotor magnets so you may get interference from these, Romero was very clever in that he used the main rotor magnets to cancel a proportion of the little magnets field either side of the trigger point, this make the hall on period even smaller, you can tell he must of spent a lot of time building motors to acquire all these little bits of knowledge to put into this motor, i suspect the main rotor hall will be Even craftier. Time to go and test
Good luck with your build Chris theres so much to learn here from Romero.
EDIT
One other thing, the periphery hall is not dead center to the rotor magnet firring position it is positioned just left by almost the width of the coil see picture below
(http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=827.0;attach=5134)
you can also see it's position in this aerial view, the top one is the periphery hall and you can easily see it's not dead center
(http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=862.0;attach=5320)
you'll find out more as you further along. These are not the important points.
cheers
chrisC
Well done watsup O0 i can confirm that when the hall is placed exactly how Romero had it then the rotor hall is indeed triggered before the magnet is under the drive coils and turns off dead center, so there is only one way this is going clockwise like the video and that is to use attraction mode for this hall.
So indeed we have one coil operating in repulsion(periphery magnets) and one set of coils working in attraction mode(Rotor Hall)
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.14, 15:59:53
So the yellow text was already on the frame saying repulsion and attraction and this was directly from Romero?
This quote is from Romero:
Quote
I am driving in attraction mode. I have started the project in repulsion then tried attraction. I get
much better torque in attraction.
I have spent about one month to do all this testings and adjustments. Small things can make a huge
difference, like my extra diodes on top of the rectifier.The gap from the rotor to the coil I had it
increased and decreased hundreds of times to get it right.
All the best,
RomeroUK
Yeah i am aware of that G and it does worry me as i have no reason to doubt Romero, the problem i have is that the periphery hall is positioned wrongly to operate in attraction with the rotor going clockwise, although i have to say that with tonight's test most of the rotational energy is from the rotor drive because the hall is switched on longer, maybe he wanted the other drive to slow down or impede the rotation direction if so why, i have to say it looks to me like the wired direction is the same for both drives and therefore both coils should be one or other, i am constantly trying to go over the videos and wiring to find any solution.
QuoteSo indeed we have one coil operating in repulsion(periphery magnets) and one set of coils working in attraction mode(Rotor Hall)
Not correct, both motor coil pairs are operated in attraction.
What you guys might not know is that Romero uses an iphone to take those pictures, and those that have iphones will know that the images after capture are REVERSED, or fliped LEFT TO RIGHT. That's how you reconcile what he says by what you see in the images!EDIT: you reconcile these inconsistencies by realizing that indeed Romero's dynamo has both coils in attraction, so they create opposing torques on the rotor due to the location of the hall sensors (one leading and one lagging it's respective coil) that's why the rotor jerks around upon startup, AND draws 12 watts while running without load, which is excessive for such slow RPMs (2000 or so)
EM
I am not sure that a mirrored image would make too much difference as both sensors are still on one side of the rotor, so in that case also 1 will be attraction and the other will be repulsion, although this is very interesting info EM thanks, does this go for the video's as well as the pictures.
EDIT hang on the analogue meters move the correct way
hello to all can we see anather test whit biger setup if is posible did whill be working this devices .each time when is reply something is going vrong if is make biger or small device . if posible @romero make anteher video whit biger setup THANKS .
I added a picture to my previous post.
Peter, I'm not sure about videos, I think not, but not 100% sure, I just noticed this with pictures because it annoyes me.
EM
HELLO @EMdevice :)
Hi EM
No if you look at the picture i posted above yours , i took this from the video, and in the same video the analogue meter is reading from left to right correctly, so my aerial shot of where the hall is must be correct, and in the aerial picture the periphery hall is at the top and to the left of the driven coil, as in your first non reversed image.
Top Hall Sensor
Yep G
I can confir that is the rotor hall not the periphery hall.
That defiantly works in attraction mode when the rotor goes clockwise because the hall is right of the coil.
It's the other hall that's the problem, it's left of the other drive coil and therefore must be working in repulsion mode for the rotor to turn clockwise
I will refer to my picture again below
The hall circled green at the top of the picture is the periphery driven hall, when viewing the coil close it is positioned to the left of the coil It cannot work in attraction
The hall circled green at the bottom of the picture is the rotor driven hall, when viewing the coil close it is positioned to the right of the coil It can only work in attraction
(http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=862.0;attach=5320)
So, the top Hall sensor will be on longer than the peripheral Hall sensor, since the magnets are larger (wider).
Arrow on image from the PDF indicates clockwise.
Comment by Romero on Hall triggering:
Quote
The 2 driving coils are running independently, not activating at the same time, that is what I need, to
have the second coil activating when the other one is completely off.
Yep it can be seen to be started by Romero going clockwise.
Interestingly the top hall sensor is indeed on longer, but the hall is at right angles to the rotor magnet, so the magnet has to just go past the hall to activate, note the hall sensor has 2 flat sides, one side is activated by south and the other is activated by north
Can you tell which side of the top Hall is South?
Romero said that all of the magnets were South facing up.
see attached for Hall Identification
Edit:
So the sensor plate is right in the center of the plastic mass of the sensor. UA type output is low when the south pole is near, so the magnet turns it off.
What about the peripheral one, same way? He said they were South facing out.
Yep i can tell which way each hall sensor is positioned because it has 1 flat side and a triangular shape to the sides on the other side of the package this is clear in the datasheet.
I have just watched the video again and it has all fallen in place.
The perphery hall is indeed in attraction mode, when he first connects the battery the rotor just sits there rocking violently back and forth, whats happening here is the rotor hall switches on and pulls the rotor clockwise, then the periphery hall activates repelling the magnet which actually pulls the rotor anti clockwise, this is why it rocks back and forth violently without a directional shove by hand, once he shoves it clockwise because the rotor drive is stronger the clockwise direction overides the anti clockwise pull on the periphery drive, the net result is that once it's over a certain rpm the periphery drive will regulate the speed, this is why the rotor does not slow on being loaded, it's a form of speed regulation, this also explains why the current may vary down slightly with a load applied, it's because the rpm is regulated and cannot alter once up to speed O0 how clever is that, all we need to work out now is how it generates more than it uses.
So the sensor plate is right in the center of the plastic mass of the sensor. UA type output is low when the south pole is near, so the magnet turns it off.
What about the peripheral one, same way? He said they were South facing out.
With the periphery hall, he uses the larger flat side of the hall which needs a north to activate.
Peter,
1) I agree, the video is not flipped. The writing is proof.
2) The top hall in your aerial snapshot from the video seems to be the shorter hall with wires, becasue I don't see it protude too deep below the surface, so it has to be the hall that gets activated by the rotor magnets, therefore, the front hall is then the perifery one, and we can even see that it has longer wires below the surface. Do you agree?
As an added comment, the periphery hall will activate the coils for a shorter rotor angle, due to the small magnets embeded in the periphery. The other hall will have a longer ON time.
EM
It must also cause a deceleration for a very short time, this maybe viewable on that scope shot by maybe the collapse slope would be shallower or be slanted slightly with respect to the creating slope
Quote from: EMdevices on 2011.06.14, 21:07:35
Peter,
1) I agree, the video is not flipped. The writing is proof.
2) The top hall in your aerial snapshot from the video seems to be to be a shorter hall, as I don't see it protrude too deep, so it's the hall that get activated by the rotor magnets, and the front hall is the periphery one. Do you agree?
As an added comment, the periphery hall will activate the coils for a shorter rotor angle, due to the small magnets embedded in the periphery. The other hall will have a longer ON time.
EM
EM the hall at the top is placed at the edge of the rotor so it must be the periphery hall, look at it's positioning and then look at the hall at the bottom.
EDIT either way 1 of the halls is still on the wrong side for both to work conventionally in attraction
yeah, you do have a point there as well. :-\
Watch the beginning of the video and see how the rotor rocks back and forth, when i try switching on the bench with just the rotor hall driver connected it wants to get going as soon as the hall is triggered with very small amount of push, if my rotor rocked like his with just the rotor connected it would accelerate not rock back and forth O0
I thought about the rocking back and forth before, good point. In DC fan motors, which have hall sensors, they start right up, but not Romero's motor.
So then can we conclude with 100% certainly that:
One coil pair is driven in ATTRACTION and one in REPULSION ?
Edit: This should read: One coil pair is driving Clockwise and the other Counterclockwise, therfore in opposite sense?
If that's the case this is a most interesting mode of operation, of distrotion of the fields in a dynamic system.
EM
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.14, 20:57:35
With the periphery hall, he uses the larger flat side of the hall which needs a north to activate.
The UA type Hall with three leads out of the bottom (TO-92) is triggered high by a north pole or no magnetic field, so when the south poles are away from the sensor it will go high and it will go low when the south poles are near the sensor.
At low revs they are fighting for spin direction, but the rotor drive wins because it's turned on longer and don't forget, the periphery coil is a single stranded wire but the rotor coil is the same wire size but 2 stranded in parallel so also sinks more current, it all favours clockwise direction while the periphery coil trys to fight the clockwise direction, but i bet when it reaches speed they work in harmony and regulate the rpm to load
Any have a good evening chaps I'm off to bed ;)
No G they are both 3144, i tried it the hall is either on or off , put south pole on face it turns on, put north on reverse face it turns on or which ever way round it should be
Oh, I remember why I minimized the importance of the back and forth rocking motion of the rotor after it was turned on, and before he manualy pushed it in the clockwise direction:
I thought that cogging was strong enough to bring the rotor back after a pulse, but on second thought, that can't be, because as the motor pulses, trying to start, it injects more and more kinetic energy into the rotor, and it should eventualy break loose, because cogging is not a power consuming phenomena (we'll a little bit due to hysterisis loss, but minimal, so cogging is similar to a spring that gets compressed and then pushes back)
So yes, absolutely, RomeroUK seems to be under the wrong impression about his dynamo motor coil activation from the statement he made.
Great detective work Peter! O0
EM
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.14, 21:26:51
No G they are both 3144, i tried it the hall is either on or off , put south pole on face it turns on, put north on reverse face it turns on or which ever way round it should be
Why is the US5781 Hall Sensor in the PDF?
CLaNZeR is testing/adjusting his now (page 5)
also see page 3 and 4 for pics
http://www.overunity.org.uk/showthread.php?1773-MULLER-Generator-free-energy-self-runner-at-overunity.com-romerouk-has-a-self-runner/page2
Nice work.
Wow, my mind is spinning again due to this new revelation ! One of these days I'm going to have a stroke :o
But, consider this. I was always puzzled why his motor was consuming 12 watts, just to run!
A dc motor that is not loaded consumes very little power because it speeds up to a velocity that raises the BEMF to the same potential as the Battery voltage driving the motor, and current then is (Vbemf - Vbatt) / Rcoil = very small value, just enough to overcome frictional losses which are not that large.
But this motor UNLOADED injects about 12 WATTS of power into it?
where the hell is all this power going?
Don't laugh, but I think this power is pumping up an unseen VORTEX or energy storage mechanism not readily descernable at the moment. And guess what, injecting power like that into an UNSEEN STORAGE MECHANISM, means that when it's loaded, this unseen VORTEX IS GIVING THE POWER BACK.
THEREFORE, WE NEED TO RE-ANALYZE HIS VIDEO FOR THE DURATION OF RUN TIME WITH AND WITHOUT THE LIGHT BULB. FOR ENERGY BALANCE, THE DYNAMO BETTER BE ON, WITHOUT THE LOAD, MORE THAN TWICE THE TIME DURATION AS WITH A LOAD, IF WE ARE DEALING WITH AN INVISIBLE ENERGY STORAGE MECHANISM HERE
:D :o 8) >:-)
Your faithful servant,
EM
PS. This 12 watts input is because of the 2 motor coils and the way they oppose the rotor, so this energy WE ASSUMED was energy lost in heating and friction, but it's not because losses are much less for such a motor. In reality, the energy is SAVED in an unexplainable STORAGE MECHANISM in this dynamo, which could be a strain in the magnetic field of the rotor, or a spinning magnetic field that spins faster than the rotor and builds up, like I explained at OU, or some VORTEX that we don't understand at the moment. But it's not 12 watts of LOST power. No way! So power input times time = energy input, then power ouput * time = energy output. And since Pout = 2* Pin, to have this equation be equal is to have it run with no load TWICE as long as with a load. And I think RomeroUK found that out and technicaly it is a "FAKE" like he said, from the point of view of an OU device, but it's not a FAKE from a sincerity point of view. He's an honest guy, and has stumbled on a very interesting storage TECHNOLOGY !!!!!!!!!!
I posted this new insight at OU.com for RomeroUK to see and confirm.
THIS DYNAMO MOST LIKELY IS A NOVEL MAGNETIC STORAGE DEVICE so not OU, but very, very, very, interesting! It could replace batteries in electric cars ! Current magnetic flywheel technology is quite mature but requires realy high speed rotors made out of fiberglass and magnetic bearings and very special design to minimize eddy current losses, etc... and very EXPENSIVE !, but look at this RomeroUK dynamo. The guy unknowingly stumbled on this because his HALL SENSORS WERE FIRING THE WRONG WAY, and opposing. One wanted to work Clockwise, the other Counter-Clockwise !
So what we were seeing was real, Pout = 2 x Pin, the video did not lie, but it's not OU because what eluded all of us was the TIME.
you see,
IT'S THE ENERGY BALANCE NOT THE POWER BALANCE THAT MATTERS.
EM
I have doubts that this device is OU, but if you look at the magnetic field between the coils and the rotor magnets, it is narrow as the magnet aligns and spreads as the coil is between magnets. Do a quick sketch and it will make more sense.
So, the magnetic field is compressed and expanded - pumped. I don't see a mechanism for gain though.
If energy is stored, how is it stored? Aether rotation in the northern hemisphere is CCW, so your CW generator is against the natural rotation of this medium.
QuoteIf energy is stored, how is it stored?
That's the million dollar question !
As people were asking questions of RomeroUK, he discovered what was happening. A big clue was
IT DOES NOT WORK UP-SIDE DOWN !
Remember how excited I was when he posted that?
When things don't make sense and are so contradictory, for example, concervation of energy yet we see 2XPin on the output, that's when discoveries are made.
Now the question is how and in what form is this energy stored? Is it a strain in the magnetic field at a fast velocity? Lot's of good things can come from this.
But, what if it is OU? What if we are tapping into a vortex of sorts? Like in the TPU?
Think about bifilar TPU windings that are pumped and create and mix and produce a fast RPM magnetic field, now what if Steven Mark does the same thing, PRELOADS THE TPU'S WITH ENERGY from the outlets? Ever thought of that? He keeps being obsessed with comparing it with a battery! (" .. If this were a battery, it would be an entirely new kind of battery ..") But maybe he is tapping into invisible vortexes that are not recognized by current science theory. Who the hell knows! I don't know, just specualting here.
I need to take a break or I'll short circuit my brain for sure. Tomorrow I'll do more thinking on how this storage mechanism is supported by the dynamo.
EM
Quote from: EMdevices on 2011.06.15, 02:18:47
I posted this new insight at OU.com for RomeroUK to see and confirm.
THIS DYNAMO MOST LIKELY IS A NOVEL MAGNETIC STORAGE DEVICE so not OU, but very, very, very, interesting! It could replace batteries in electric cars ! Current magnetic flywheel technology is quite mature but requires realy high speed rotors made out of fiberglass and magnetic bearings and very special design to minimize eddy current losses, etc... and very EXPENSIVE !, but look at this RomeroUK dynamo. The guy unknowingly stumbled on this because his HALL SENSORS WERE FIRING THE WRONG WAY, and opposing. One wanted to work Clockwise, the other Counter-Clockwise !
What we were seeing was real, Pout = 2 x Pin, the video did not lie, but it's not OU because what eluded all of us was the TIME.
you see,
IT'S THE ENERGY BALANCE NOT THE POWER BALANCE THAT MATTERS.
EM
EM:
I think you're overly excited and I don't think the Hall devices are firing to oppose each other; I think all the people whose machines are working have sensors triggering mutually exclusive of each other but moving the rotor in the same attraction mode direction.
Calm down .....
chrisC
I'm affraid that's the problem Chris ! In this case we are all using our brains with these replications, and wire the 2 motor coils to move the rotor in the same direction. That's what I was going to do, and that's the sensible thing to do! But what do you know, being careless and stupid might have it's benefits after all! (I'm not saying Romero is stupid, this is a retorical statement) In RomeroUK's dynamo one motor coil wants to move it Clockwise and the other Couterclockwise, (read what Peter found out) Who in their right mind would configure a rotor like that? You see, the jerking back and forth of the rotor, when power is turned on is a VERY BIG CLUE, which again was missed. For comparison, DC fan motors in PC's are designed about the same as this dynamo, and it uses hall sensors too, and IT STARTS RIGHT UP, NONE OF THIS JERKING BACK AND FORTH AS POWER IS APPLIED. After power is applied, than RomeroUK has to stick his hand in there and manualy start the rotor going CLOCKWISE and free it from this jerking motion.
It will all sink in slowly, give it time.
EM
EM, Peter,
Let me ask you both this;
Is this in your opinion an accurate depiction of the coil/magnet configuration, and orientation?
.99
Quote from: EMdevices on 2011.06.15, 03:31:08
I'm affraid that's the problem Chris ! In this case we are all using our brains with these replications, and wire the 2 motor coils to move the rotor in the same direction. That's what I was going to do, and that's the sensible thing to do! But what do you know, being careless and stupid might have it's benefits after all! (I'm not saying Romero is stupid, this is a retorical statement) In RomeroUK's dynamo one motor coil wants to move it Clockwise and the other Couterclockwise, (read what Peter found out) Who in their right mind would configure a rotor like that? You see, the jerking back and forth of the rotor, when power is turned on is a VERY BIG CLUE, which again was missed. For comparison, DC fan motors in PC's are designed about the same as this dynamo, and it uses hall sensors too, and IT STARTS RIGHT UP, NONE OF THIS JERKING BACK AND FORTH AS POWER IS APPLIED. After power is applied, than RomeroUK has to stick his hand in there and manualy start the rotor going CLOCKWISE and free it from this jerking motion.
It will all sink in slowly, give it time.
EM
EM: I wish you were correct but my motor jerks because the position of any of the 2 hall sensors is indeterminate at start up and it will involve us turning it and then according how your driver coils are wound, it will either go clock or anticlockwise. In my setup, I wired a DPDT switch for top and bottom drive coils because I don't remember which way I wounded the coils and flipping the switch will get me the correct wiring. Is your motor up and running yet. You will see what I mean.
chrisC
QuoteNow the question is how and in what form is this energy stored? Is it a strain in the magnetic field at a fast velocity? Lot's of good things can come from this.
The simplest way to do this would be a magnetic field shear or two coils at 90degrees to each other. Create that warped field in space then mangle it. Or treat it with beauty like Spheric's design.
Given time and all will be apparent.
Wow, I had another idea.
If this device is indeed OU, than the motor coil with a hall sensor over the rotor magnets (with the longer ON time) moves the rotor, but the other motor coil (with the shorter ON time) injects power into the BEMF of the coil, hence into the complex dynamic magnetic fields of this dynamo, AT THE RPM of the rotor, but this energy or magnetic strain could then snap after the hall turns OFF and propagate at a FASTER rpm or frequency in this magnetic turbine, and the faster velocity of this magnetic wave produces extra power in the output coils by some mechanism we don't yet fully understand.
EM
@p99, yes, that was Romero's drawing with my appended B-H curve.
@ Some of you who were shocked by this latest developments should be more at ease. We have stumbled on a very important aspect, which frankly I have never contemplated before. A type of energy transformer, inject at low frequency, gather at higher frequencies, with gain! because a higher dphi/dt (or flux time rate of change) means higher voltage, so if the current is somehow constant, we than have power amplification in this magnetic turbine.
Darren
That image only represents a generator coil, the motor coils do not have washers or magnets on top and on the bottom
There is also something interesting the way the periphery coil is wound, firstly the bobbin is not overflowing with wire like all the other coils, 2 it is cone shaped wound, 3 it has a solder joint where he has tagged wire onto it (Maybe he had to tune the length and turns)
(http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=827.0;attach=5134)
To convince yourselves of how little current and power an unloaded DC motor draws in steady state, meaning it has reached the proper speed, power your motors with ONLY ONE COIL. Disable the other one, just for this test.
(when a motor starts or accelerates it draws lots of current because the velocity is not yet producing a large enough BEMF voltage to counteract the supply voltage. Also, if you load down the shaft, than it slows down and draws current to produce torque, for the same reasons, because the BEMF voltage is lower at slower speeds, and it's lower than supply voltage. Lots of good references exist on the web)
EM
One other anomaly i found when replicating the coils is the direction of connection from the top coil to the bottom coil.
It looks to me the top and bottom coils are wound in the same direction, the start point at which he winds always gets put through the hole in the top and bottom plate on the outside of the disc and the coils finish point to the inner hole on the top and bottom plate, the inner coil connection comes up and solders to his middle connection on the 3 terminal connector,
Now he uses an orange wire to connect the center terminal of the top screw terminal to the center pin of the bottom plate coil screw terminal, when i tried this my top coil was working in attraction mode and my bottom coil was working in repulsion mode, offcourse this didn't work out as the drives coils were fighting the rotor manget, so either i have the bottom coil wind direction wrong(which is hard to confirm in the video) or he is not using a 1cm rotor magnet but 2 smaller magnets , 1 with south facing up and the other with south facing down, offcourse if he did do this using say 2 x 5mm magnets or even 2 x 3mm magnets then they would repel strongly at their joint faces and the result would be an air gap which would mean his magnets would be bigger than 1 cm height in total, the result of this would be apparent in that he would have magnet sticking above the surface of the 1cm rotor perspex and also have some magnet sticking out below the 1cm rotor perspex, and guess what he does, so either i am right or his rotor is not 1cm.
my magnets do stick up a little but not on the bottom surface, so there is something strange here also, could he be using 2 magnets in repulsion mode for each rotor magnet?
Hurray i just got a packet of cores delivered :)
Just need to cut them down now and make another 5 gen coils , a bit of wiring and i am almost there
Quote from: EMdevices on 2011.06.15, 02:18:47
I posted this new insight at OU.com for RomeroUK to see and confirm.
IT'S THE ENERGY BALANCE NOT THE POWER BALANCE THAT MATTERS.
EM
AMEN!Joules to rule them all.
Hoppy
Ether Vortex / Rotation as "Energy Storage"
Reminds me of Harold Aspden's experiment with a rotor and a coaxial magnetic field.
Unfortunaltely I do not have a picture of his setup (...does anybody have one?), attached please find the related pages of his latest book "Creation".
He accelerated a rotor with a coaxial magnetic field up to a speed with a certain amount of input energy. If the rotor was stopped and immediately accelerated again, much less energy was needed to get it at the same rotational speed as before. This effect only faded if the rotor was stopped for a couple of minutes.
This correlates exactely with EM's thoughts.
Cheers,
Sivispacem
Quote from: sivispacem on 2011.06.15, 15:24:07
Ether Vortex / Rotation as "Energy Storage"
For the sake of a thought excercise, let's say there is an aether interaction with the rotor, and that this stores energy like other fields do.
How might we magnify this stored energy so that we have gain? We have to alter the aether density - somehow.
Let's further the excercise and say that Vlaenderen is close enough with his theory and the following applies: (attached)
To change aether density, we apply HV impulses or a divergent/convergent current to our rotating aether storage region in some way to cause a longitudinal wave in the direction of the pickup coil windings. (last part based on comments by Spherics - below)
Quote
This void combined with the rotating pulses cause the ether to spiral. The spiraling ether interacts with the metal of the copper toroid along with the vertical direction pulse from the top coil. This cause the ether to not only spiral round in a circle as viewed from above but also to corkscrew along the path of the toroid windings. The corkscrewing path of the ether around the toroid is now in line with the windings. This creates a longitudinal wave along the copper creating a large current effect in the toroid windings. Which is what is needed.
I don't see an easy way to do this, at the moment.
OK i can confirm that with both sets of drive coils running in attraction mode the motor runs well, infact the periphery hall although timed after the magnet approaches does indeed accelerate the rotor once it's running and because it's on period is shorter than the main rotor drive coils it will start quiet easily clockwise, i am guessing the periphery drive although it impedes the rotor direction at low revs actually ends up being correctly timed once up to speed.
QuoteQuote
This void combined with the rotating pulses cause the ether to spiral. The spiraling ether interacts with the metal of the copper toroid along with the vertical direction pulse from the top coil. This cause the ether to not only spiral round in a circle as viewed from above but also to corkscrew along the path of the toroid windings. The corkscrewing path of the ether around the toroid is now in line with the windings. This creates a longitudinal wave along the copper creating a large current effect in the toroid windings. Which is what is needed.
I don't see an easy way to do this, at the moment.
Would not the aether be compelled or attracted to the toroidal field? Then the travel angle would continuously cut the cage windings. Looking from above we would see the spiral pattern similar to a spining spiral arm galaxy only at high speed / generated rpm.
As above so below.
Quote from: giantkiller on 2011.06.15, 21:48:03
Would not the aether be compelled or attracted to the toroidal field? Then the travel angle would continuously cut the cage windings. Looking from above we would see the spiral pattern similar to a spining spiral arm galaxy only at high speed / generated rpm.
As above so below.
My understanding is that you have to get the aether stuff to flow
along the wire to induce current, not across it like a magnetic field. I don't see an easy way to do this with coils mounted vertically. The spherics tetrahedral device used a geometrical combination of electrical pulses to achieve this by apply a force to the aether in two directions at the same time. Vaenderen indicated that electrical pulses or divergent (or) convergent currents are required to move the aether. For it to enhance a solenoid coil, it has to swirl around the coil along the wire.
I managed to get the last 5 gen coils wound this morning, some more wiring yet then balance everything.
One thing sticks out is that with 1 push of the hand the rotor keeps turning very easily without power, it jerks as each magnet hits a core, but overall it seems to balance and make it turn easily for a little while.
The cores i used in the end were type 25-3C90
I nibbled the length down to about 15mm and then held the end against a belt sander for a while, did the job pretty well, i wouldn't say they were perfect but good enough.
14p each core i ordered 30 and broke about 8 LOL, the only trouble with Farnell in the UK is the min order had to be £20.00 >:(
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=1784215
And just for EM ;D
The cores are high saturation and in the words from Ferroxcube are best for the storage of energy ;) and Low power loss and ideal for usage under 150kHz
(http://uk.farnell.com/productimages/farnell/standard/1784202-40.jpg)
@Peterae
Here is a looped animation of when the rotor dances between the attraction and repulsion before he gives it a whirl by hand.
The bottom coil is drive D11 (located closest to the output on/off switch), and the top coil is drive D22.
This animation holds the key to how the sensors versus rotor magnet diameter versus edge magnet diameter versus drive coil diameter are inter-related when there is not enough forward momentum to push the rotor into full clockwise rotation.
The best analogy I can give this is a magnetic two-step crank or ratchet or even in some way a sling-shot.
If the file size of this animation is too big to post here, I have put it also on my ftp site located here;
http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/Wattsups%27%20stuff/romero/
Some other questions;
1: For the drive coils, I know its late but maybe it would have been good to wind them with a center tap.
2: Has anyone every calculated what all the FWBR's cost in energy loss not forgetting they are top loaded as well with more diodes.
3: Has anyone identified the capacitor he used in video 2. Seems to me like BHC 47000uF 25 vdc.
wattsup
Thanks for the animation
Your No 3 is dead on 47000uF 25V from what Romero said.
OK so 47000uF charged to 12 vdc will last how long if pulsing only the drive coils at the best known frequency? Do we know the rpm of his wheel in the 2nd video? Can someone calculate this with the 300 turns drive coils he is using? 47000uF is still alot of energy. Supply a pulse at least for 1000 rpm mean 8 pulses per rpm per drive coil pair?
wattsup, I've seen someone else mention the center tap idea. Not too late here but what will be the advantage of having a center tap?
Hi Wattsup
If i trigger a hall with a magnet and watch the current on my meter i can draw 3.25 Amps @12V but cannot remember which coil that was, so would need to test each driver to answer accurately, but that should give you an idea
@wattsup
Quote2: Has anyone every calculated what all the FWBR's cost in energy loss not forgetting they are top loaded as well with more diodes.
I would consider it more of a measure of savings rather than losses because any current below a given potential is simply wasted. For example I have one water line #1 at low pressure and high volume and another line #2 at high pressure and low volume. Most of the energy from line #1 dissipates due to the large frictional forces due to the large volume of flow where line #2 at high pressure and low volume losses very little energy. Therefore if we have a current flow which transitions from low pressure to high pressure we may as well just block the low pressure flow because it will simply dissipate most of its energy as losses. Why would we continue to pay for something as work when we know as a fact we will never receive most of what we paid for? it makes no sense yet this is exactly what we always do.
Regards
AC
First run up tonight.
No magnets on the washers, i need to work out the polarity.
I have not found the nerve to let this finish revving up either, even with shields up ;D It certainly makes enough noise.
I can defiantly generate enough power to light 2 10Watt 12V bulbs when i switch on the output but right now Lenz rules and it slows down under load.
Scares the crap out of me without a rev counter not knowing if i am over stressing the perspex :-[ and i am meant to tune this under load GULP
'Defiantly' or 'definitely' ?
Got your armor plated undershorts on?
OOOPPS Definitely definitely ;D
Better look on EBay for armour :)
One other thing my Average current consumption is about 2 Amps, if i remember Romero's was under 1 Amp, so i guess i have used wire that's to thick and hence not enough turns, this could be a real problem rewinding them as i glued the bobbins to the perspex so would need to unwire the top and bottom and take the rotor out and unwind and rewind in position, but before i do this i will try tuning things with the magnets on the washers and see if i can get the RPM's constant with a load.
@Peterae
If you are getting to much drag, you may have to increase the gap between the rotor and the coils. Romero has a good 3/8" which is inordinately gappy and one sides gap was not identical to the other. Maybe start by seeing how far you can be and still turn the rotor with the drive coils.
wattsup
I suggest:
1. Connect your scope to display frequency then divide by 60 for RPM.
2. Try to get the current down with magnets and spacing adjustments before rewinding. Make generator/magnet adjustments one at a time (open circuit on all the rest of the coils - short circuit the coil under adjustment) and while the rotor is driven with a separate motor.
3. Use the motor coils (one at a time) and adjust the Hall positions for max RPM at a fixed zero-peak current.
In that order ;)
Of course, there will be a lot of interaction going on so you may be a 'master tuner' by the time you're done.
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011.06.17, 00:02:55
I suggest:
1. Connect your scope to display frequency then divide by 60 for RPM.
I believe you meant to say multiply the frequency by 60 for RPM.
Thanks.
Yes, I did. I'm used to knowing the RPM while looking at vibration FFT's C.C
@Peterae
What is Romeros rotor diameter and magnet diameter?
Are they any different from yours?
The rotor and magnet diameters will play heavily on if this will work or not, or if you should use 8 or more or less magnets and 9 or more or less coils.
I will explain.
The function will be the minimal distance between each magnet, versus the drive coil diameter, versus the sensor position.
If the wheel diameter is too great, the 8 magnets will be too far away from each other to work since between attraction distances of the drive coils and the activation sensors, there is a limited window of opportunity and all components have to be in a physical range for activation.
OK, in my previous posts I indicate one coil attraction and one coil repulsion. The animation I made will prove otherwise and show it is attraction/attraction as Romero just posted and as he says, there is some repulsion but not on the D22 as I was indicating.
Here is what is happening.
D22 is the drive coils with the sensor on the edge placed after the drive coils in clockwise direction. As the magnet passes through D22, it reaches the other side and activates the pulse that makes the coil go into attraction mode and this attraction pulls in the next magnet to its left. Son of a gun. So the magnet passes through the drive while it is de-energized and hits the sensor yelling "hey, grab the next guy will y'a". Also, I figured out why there is so much distance between the rotor magnets and the coils. Romero needed this distance to catch the next magnet sooner. We equate distance between magnet and coil as being the closer the better, but actually, in attraction, the field further out will create the inwards gesture to the next magnet while it is further out. To close and the edge field of the magnet will not be well positioned to pull something in. Also, with a good gap, you will also have a zone nearer to the magnet that will have less attraction, right around where the sensor is and where the magnet just wants to leave the area so the next magnet is attracted but can then pass through.
D11 coil is the drive coil that has the sensor on top. As the magnet enters the sensor zone, the drive creates another attraction that again pulls in the magnet closer and pushes out the D22 magnet to leave its sensor zone. As the D11 magnet gets to its sensor off position just under the drive coil, D22 activates again and pulls its next magnet inwards again and the cycle repeats.
What will eventually be required is a wheel diameter to magnet/coil diameter ratio where you will be able to build any sized wheel device.
The gap between the rotor and the coils is very important.
wattsup
Thanks for you help guys, i shall need plenty more, not quiet ready for tuning yet WW but will need some help here soon, great idea with the scope, i would also need to divide by 8 as the magnets pass 8 times per rev or just multiply by 7.5
Wattsup i am using the same rotor diameter and magnet diameter as Romero and also same magnet and coil number and spacing.
Rotor Magnets are 2cm by 1cm height south pole facing up.
Rotor Diameter is 25cm using 1cm thick Perspex.
Now something else i can confirm the added magnets are indeed all north facing up, and there needs to be only 1 big magnet on one selected coil, the reason is it biases the start position of the rotor, if i place magnets south up then the rotor starts in a position that does not allow a magnet near the rotor hall and hence you don't get any trigger at power on and don't get the rocking back and forward, but with the magnets north up and the bigger magnets on the correct coil pair the rotor rocks back and forward as both halls fire one after the other rocking the rotor back and forth.
Mr Lenz still visits me with the magnets in position :'( still next i will roll the scope out and see what i have on the gen coils, i am all wired up so all gen coils are connected up, at the moment i have the cap after the switch, so when i switch on the load i also switch on the cap or to put it another way i have the cap across the load, i am using a 33000uF cap, dont have the 47000uF, i am wondering if i can get away with adding more caps in parallel to make up to 47000uF.
When i get to work i will upload some pictures and 2 videos of it running.
Peterae,
I'm quite sure that the net changing magnetic field on each half coil should be near zero. This would require a balance of flux density between the fixed and rotor magnet.
Since the coil will see a changing flux density from the rotor and fixed magnets, as the rotor magnet approaches, the adjustments would mainly be centering that net null field in the coil.
One way to skin Lenz is to change the situation so no induction can occur. In this case, you see a scope peak just as the rotor magnet approaches, the signal flat-lines as the balance between changing flux densities is met and then there is a small reverse peak as the rotor magnet leaves the coil.
The rotor magnets don't induce the generator current ( not directly ). The stator magnets do as they reconnect to each other 8)
Just uploading 2 videos now
Here's a snap from the video showing a scope shot across one of the top coils at high rpm
Also a pic of the top and edge hall, Note i have not gone out of my way to set the positions of these yet, just had a little tug and move to get it running
I am wondering if i have the coils connected correctly now , this is from the second video where i scope across the bridge input without a load, i just moved one scope clip from the coil common connection to the other wire on the bridge input
EDIT
I didn't take note of the volts/div or the timebase setting, i wouldn't believe the frequency readout on the scope, i was hoping i could get the volts/div off the video but the reflection seems to stop this, i think the first video was 2v/div but hang on i also forgot to check the probe setting *1 or *10 so any values on the scope could be wrong so i will need to confirm the true settings when i get home.
OK here it is The First run up of my Romero Muller Variant Replication where Mr Lenz pays a visit ;D
Scope is across a top coil only that is in series with the bottom coil and connected to the bridge with all other coils, but without the bulb load switched on.
Video 2
Same as Video 1 but scoping across top & Bottom coils where they connect to the bridge, no load on output of bridge connected.
Oh Crap here we go
Post by Romero
Quote from: woopy on June 16, 2011, 05:01:36 PM
Hi Romero
just a quick question
Is it possible that on the rotor, you use a pair of magnets in opposition to get a "kind of super pole" with the same pole outside ? yes or no ?
If yes it could explain why the magnet get something out of the 12 mm thick rotor on the pix we have seen on the other thread (and i remember you spoke of adding magnet on top of each other but you did not say how.
If yes in this case there is no more a Muller divice and it works completely differently.
Thank's and good luck for your next project for me i go on testing and learning and it is a lot of fun
Laurent
that was a mistake I made, realised after a while.I changed rotors and everything so many times and I forgot. The rotor was 12mm and because the 10mm magnet was too small I added a 5mm magnet, so total magnet lenght was 15mm
Then
Quote from: neptune on June 16, 2011, 05:25:08 PM
@Romerouk . Many thanks for answering some of my questions .And woopy`s question . Referring to Woop`s question , can you confirm that when you added the 5mm magnets on the rotor , you added them in attraction and not in repel mode . Thanks .
attraction is what i used mainly for one of the driver coils that used the side magnets to trigger.the other one having the hall on top used attraction too but a bit of replusion at the same time.
My RPM counter just arrived, i am amazed it's in a nice blue case, comes with battery and a length of sticky reflection strip, nothing to test it with but if i move my hand in front of it and hold the Test button it does read something that changes, cant wait to try it now :)
Here's Romero's scope shot of a single coil
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.17, 10:44:00
OK here it is The First run up of my Romero Muller Variant Replication where Mr Lenz pays a visit ;D
...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GML2DtbwsmY
Congratulations, Peterae. Great work. Even though I consider that there is no way to get free energy from such setups, nevertheless it is instructive to build one for an educational perspective, and it is not accessible to anyone but to skilful experimenters.
Mr Lenz will always be there because the reason for the motor to rotate is strictly the same as the reason for Lenz's law to work. Varying current that generates varying field, and varying field that induces varying current, are the two sides of the same equation. Some people imagine that there would be a delayed effect from one onto the other, making a not symmetrical relation. This is not exact. A varying magnetic field is generated first just around the conductor and then it expands. In fact it is even generated immediately around accelarated charges. The phenomenon is completely local, due to the charges reacting with their own field when accelerated.
So i guess the question is, what would cause the flat area i have circled in red,my scope shot does not have this, is it because my coil is not loaded
That flat area is where the rotor and stator magnets are at or near axial alignment and the NET changing radial magnetic field on the coil is near zero.
This is the result of two opposing and tightly compressed magnetic fields. Such a situation creates a radial magnetic field (the term 'virtual' was used by EM) between the opposing poles. When both poles are South then the center of the radial field will be South and the outer periphery North. When that virtual, radial field is centered vertically on a coil there will be no Faraday induction in that coil.
I would also think that IF that area also contained an electric charge Lorentz would take over. I think that is a long-shot speculation here but would certainly happen in plasma.
@Peterae
Great videos. Thanks.
Yes That quote from Romero I saw last night.
All scope shots so far that are on one generator coil all have the second coil of the pair still connected. We need to see a scope shot but on only one generator coil without anything else on it and without a load. No series, no nothing. This is very important to see that single coil sine wave. Actually once on the top gen coil (CH.A) and on the bottom gen coil (CH.B) to compare.
Also, whenever you get the chance, try your drive coil pair by adding another coil or the primary or the secondary of a transformer (having the same mH range) in series with the two drive coils but on the side that does not receive the pulse. I am confident this should increase speed and strength of rotation because the impulse should reach further into the drive coils. This third coil does not have to be on the unit.
The drag, what to say about the drag but that it is real. This will be the next big puzzle to figure out why Romero showed no drag. It has to do with sensor positions. Eventually you will have to start and stop the wheel, checking the zero to full rpm acceleration time of the rotor. The sensor placement that will provide the least time to full acceleration will be the benchmark for proper sensor placement. This is so because the faster rpm rise will mean that at all levels of acceleration will lead quickly to full rpm and once the drag starts, the rpm will go down but will want to go back up as fast as possible instead of lagging around that slower rpm. Maybe increase the rotor to coil gap some more as well.
wattsup
Added: Just saw your last post. Seems to me the flat area is simply the time there is no magnetic influence on the coil coinciding with the inter rotor magnet open spaces. This should show as zero area of the sine wave which is does.
Thanks guys
Things to try tonight then.
Scope top and bottom coils on 2 Chan's of scope totally disconnected, although the scope will offcourse connect one side of the coils together with the scopes earth leads.
I will also scope coils without magnets, with half size magnet and full size magnets to see what the difference this makes to the waveform.
Now we know that Romero did also add 5mm magnets to his 10mm magnets my rotor setup is so wrong, my magnets are 2/3 of the height they should be and hence not as strong, it's not easy for me to alter this as i glued the magnets into the rotor, i could dice with death and try supergluing 5mm ones on top of the existing magnets.
WW thanks for the explanation so what do i need to do to elongate my flat area, it will be interesting to see how the added magnets alter this part of the waveform.
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.17, 13:51:13
Thanks guys
Things to try tonight then.
Scope top and bottom coils on 2 Chan's of scope totally disconnected, although the scope will offcourse connect one side of the coils together with the scopes earth leads.
I will also scope coils without magnets, with half size magnet and full size magnets to see what the difference this makes to the waveform.
Now we know that Romero did also add 5mm magnets to his 10mm magnets my rotor setup is so wrong, my magnets are 2/3 of the height they should be and hence not as strong, it's not easy for me to alter this as i glued the magnets into the rotor, i could dice with death and try supergluing 5mm ones on top of the existing magnets.
WW thanks for the explanation so what do i need to do to elongate my flat area, it will be interesting to see how the added magnets alter this part of the waveform.
@Peterae
Yes but at least they will not be on the FWBR as a loop. When scoping the generator coils individually, also remember to change the wires around so you can try and match the waveform rise.
What will be good to know is the actual individual coil waveform, if the top and bottom can match perfectly depending on how they are connected to the scope, to finally see if the FWBR is in fact required or not. Since if each coil receives one field on off, it should generally only make one half a waveform and not two halves. So each coil should already be producing only DC. It is only when they are in series in opposing connection mode that they should produce AC. So if the coils only produce DC from one side of the magnet, why then pair them to produce AC to only then have to put them through a FWBR. This was one of the questions I had from the beginning that did not make any sense.
Also, I could not see close enough in your video if your FWBRs have the additional four diodes across them. Can this play against drag, don't know.
wattsup
Hi Peterae, Have you seen this diagram from OU? It seems someone confirmed with the correct hookup of the coils that Lenz's law is largely avoided. Diagram A is the one you want
I see what you are saying wattsup, i will give it a scope shortly ;)
Thanks e2 no i hadn't seen this, i will check and see which i have and try A O0
Quote from: e2matrix on 2011.06.17, 16:26:29
Hi Peterae, Have you seen this diagram from OU? It seems someone confirmed with the correct hookup of the coils that Lenz's law is largely avoided. Diagram A is the one you want
That may be Lenz-free, but that would imply no net emf is generated either, which means no output power.
No?
.99
Quote from: poynt99 on 2011.06.17, 16:32:47
That may be Lenz-free, but that would imply no net emf is generated either, which means no output power.
No?
.99
Agreed.
I think 'A' is going too far. 'B' should be correct.
Peterae,
My opinion:
I have doubts about the provided scope shot. If the generator coils work as I believe, the majority of their output will be pulsed DC. I suspect he had his scope set for AC input.
I would tune for a maximum width of that flat area. The wider it is the less cogging.
The rotor magnets do not induce generator output. When they pass between the coils they cancel coil output.
It is the returning connection between stator magnets that induce useful generator output.
Going by your scope shots I would say there is not enough balance between the stator and rotor magnets. Before you add magnets to the rotor I would decrease the strength of the stator magnets by adding plastic washers between the stator magnets and their metal washers.
I would also disable all but one generator coil by disconnecting them from the FWBR. Concentrate on one set of coils for adjustments to get a feel for what is going on.
Use the PEAK current of the motor coils as your guide (NOT RMS, Average or anything else). Go for a minimum peak current.
Like I said several times before: This IS NOT a common motor or generator.
Mine is quite a bit older and looks very different but the radial fields, cancellation and generating only from the reconnecting fields works.
Thanks WW i will try to work through the single coil measurements, so if i put say a 10 Ohm resistor straight across the coil and scope this or even maybe 1k
@wattsup each coil is AC see below waveform
OK below we have
1)big magnet top and bottom versus middle magnet top and bottom (big magnet is red trace)
2)big magnet versus no magnet (big magnet is red trace)
3) top coil separated and not connected vs bottom coil separated and not connected
All measurements taken using DC probe settings
EDIT the RPM meter works well, i got up to 2700 RPM, i have moved the cap to being connected all the time and just switch the bulbs in and out for the moment
OK the scope shot that shows top and bottom coils if i reverse one connection then they match and are duplicates of each other, so as Poynt says they would cancel out each other in connection A above
EDIT one thing that makes the flat massive is speed of rotation but it does affect the peak sharpness as well, i always wondered how his motor gets up to speed real fast,I think it's because he's not running at high RPM
I just tried turning the magnet on top of the coil upside down and all that does is give less amplitude on the coils output
By adjusting the gap between the top coil and rotor magnet and bottom coil and rotor magnet and scoping each coil i can accurately adjust by matching the amplitude of each waveform
You should try different resistance values during the single coil tests but adjust stator/rotor/stator magnetic force balance for widest flat/zero time on each cycle then decrease resistance until you are at or below 5 Ohms. -repeat.
When the coils are powering a load there should be more adjustments to make since the coil field will effect the balance between rotor/stator magnets.
The best target should be to shift all possible Lenz effects to right angles to the rotor rotation or same axis as the rotor shaft.
If all that works and you are powering a reasonable load (probably long before you see anything extraordinary) look for effects from a torsion at right angles to the shaft and the rotation (possibly 'twisting' at each rotor magnet). With that lightweight rotor disk you may start hearing magnet to core contact.
I doubt you need to run more than several hundred RPM, once it is all working smoothly.
I need to think about the AC vs. DC. Maybe this generator isn't as close as I thought to what I'm familiar with.
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.17, 17:45:23
I just tried turning the magnet on top of the coil upside down and all that does is give less amplitude on the coils output
Yes, it should. It should also increase the time on the flat area of the waveform. That flat-time is more important.
Quote
By adjusting the gap between the top coil and rotor magnet and bottom coil and rotor magnet and scoping each coil i can accurately adjust by matching the amplitude of each waveform
Yes, a good way to adjust balance but not generator output.
Ok, I'm talking too much :(
My best advice is work with one coil set to see what is happening and shoot for a wider flat-time. Then, work on the one after it. When both seem the same with a wider flat area..... run both adjacent sets... then a third. By then you should be seeing what I'm talking about and know more about this thing than any other replicator.
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011.06.17, 18:05:08
OK, I'm talking too much :(
No No not at all, very much appreciate your input, thankyou for putting some hard earned time in as usuall O0
While I was starting 'spew', as I have accused other of, that wasn't the reason.
My boss read my screen when I left to grab another cup of java. He said I was talking about company owned intellectual property :o
I don't associate the words 'intellectual property' with anything or anyone I have worked with to-date in this assignment ;D
Oh man be carefull, we don't want your hobby to cause work trouble.
PS i just had a TIP42 Burn >:(
Peter,
I just compared the audio tone of yours and Romero's motors, and just by ear I'd say yours is running 3 to 5 times the RPM.
.99
@Peterae
On the 2nd video I grabbed an image of the top most view of the Romero wheel. On that I applied a layer with a wheel showing 360 degrees. To my surprise, the D22 Sensor (Top) and the D11 Sensor (bottom) center align to the zero and 180 degrees, meaning they are in a straight line through the wheel shaft. I could be off by 1 degree but not that much more. This may simplify your finding the best sensor points.
wattsup
added:
Forgot to mention, thanks for the waveforms. I am stunned to see that waveform on a single coil. Each coils produces AC, then pair AC, then rectified DC on a rail. Hmmmm.
On your drive coils, if the pulse is entering the top drive coil on one pair, then try sending the pulse to the second drive coil pair from the bottom. This may equalize the applied motive force.
Ultimately, any formal variable testing will require that all components be turned to the other coil orientation, since if any of these are out of sync, it may be difficult to compensate via other components.
More, before I do some other works.
Regarding the sensor adjustments, just scope each Sensor A and B at the same time and adjust the sensors so both activations happen at the same time. This will be your closest base. I think his wheel runs smoother because the impulse is happening at the same time, whereas if you had two impulses, on after the other, this would be conducive to a more erratic rotation. Also, if they are activated at the same time, then when it sees the drag reduction, this will also happen at the same time on each sensor so they respond at the same time to counter it.
If the sensors are activated each at a given time, then during slow down because of drag, if the impulses cannot happen at the right times, it will lose momentum and want to die off.
Best of hunting the right mix.
wattsup
Added:
One last last thing. When you load the bulb and see it cogs, take the bulbs off and contact them directly to either a single coil pair before the FWBRs, a coil, or these but with one diode or two or any fewer number of generator pairs, etc. This will at least show you how much the present rotor/sensor/drive can take.
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.17, 17:22:41
Thanks WW i will try to work through the single coil measurements, so if i put say a 10 Ohm resistor straight across the coil and scope this or even maybe 1k
@wattsup each coil is AC see below waveform
OK below we have
1)big magnet top and bottom versus middle magnet top and bottom (big magnet is red trace)
2)big magnet versus no magnet (big magnet is red trace)
3) top coil separated and not connected vs bottom coil separated and not connected
All measurements taken using DC probe settings
EDIT the RPM meter works well, i got up to 2700 RPM, i have moved the cap to being connected all the time and just switch the bulbs in and out for the moment
Pete:
Thanks for posting those screen shots. What is interesting is on your last pic. (3). When you combine them and phase shift (90 degrees) you have exactly what Romero's screen shot is! So, there is no BS in what he was saying. Phase shift the Voltage and Current and you're getting closer.
cheers
chrisC
Peterae,
Congratulations on completing your dynamo, it is very similar to RomeroUK's, good job!
I'm glad to see you asking questions about RomerUK's waveform, I hope you have seen my postings at OU.com about it, a while back. Yes those flat spots are key, as is the shift down.
My suggestion:
First, work with one motor coil at a time (disabling the other) and connect the coils and hall sensors to power the rotor in OPPOSITE directions. For example: The coil triggered from the rotor magnet should make the rotor run CLOCKWISE, and the other coil to run COUNTER-CLOCKWISE. When configured like this the coils work in ATTRACTION mode, not REPULSION. Than when you enable both motor coils at the same time, the rotor will run CLOCKWISE, because the motor coil with the longer ON time wins over the other one with a shorter ON time. The motor coil with the shorter ON time than performs a type of energy transformation, from kinetic (as it's trying to put on the breaks) to magnetic because it causes current to flow into the positive polarity of the BEMF it sees, and so this creates a magnetic field disturbance in the dynamic magnetic fields of the rotor that I don't have the time right now to explain to anybodies satisfaction.
Second suggestion:
Make sure you have a recovery diode on the motor coils, especially the coil with the shorter ON time, that's doing the quick shorting, you want to catch the kick back that occurs.
Third suggestion:
Listen to what WW said about working with one generator coil at a time and the biasing magnets.
EM
@Peterae
The circuit that drives the drive coils is doing what. Pulsing power on for a given time regulated by the hall sensor to a drive coil pair? What if it does not do that. What if the power is always on the coil and the sensor pulse turns it off. Better still what if one is always off while the other is always on. Man oh man.
D22 Top magnet is attracted by the coil always on gets to the sensor to turn off the field while it exits. Sling Shot.
D11 Bottom Drive coil is always off so when the magnet gets on the sensor the drive is energized pulling the magnet in and as it gets in, the sensor is out so the magnet can exit.
D22 Always on. Sensor shuts it off. It only has to shut it for a short period to free itself from the attraction.
D11 Always off. Sensor turns it on. It has a longer reach to enter under the drive with force then release itself from the sensor.
This fits both the back and forth phenomena and the clockwise rotation.
The circuitry change required goes above my acumen.
Always on and always off (AOAO), if at 50% duty, will make no difference energy-wise. But motive-wise, it could make all the difference.
wattsup
PS: Sorry for unloading all this. I just wanted to put all this out now before the weekend.
Someone has too look again at the circuit, and it ain't gonna be me. Have fun.
Oh, another point with AOAO is you need less peak to drive the two coil pairs. That could also make a difference.
If Tesla was here, he would probably say
3 drives
6 magnets
9 coils
or would it be 3 drives.........
Thanks guys a lot of good suggestions
wattsup, interesting to know the alignment is straight through the center line, although the switching in and off is totally different because of the orientation of the rotor hall.
Interesting Darren about the speed, i had already worked out he must be going a lot slower, but then how does he get enough voltage from his gen coils without the high RPM, i have to be really moving to pump my cap above 12V without a load even.
EM recovery diodes on the drive coils, i have one across the TIP42, not sure if he had one across the coils as well, i am still wondering why my TIP went short circuit last night after a long run, it was hot but not that hot, maybe the BEMF killed it, i still feel i am using too tick wire for my drive coils, maybe i will run with a lower voltage as i now do not feel i need high revs.
How did you combine the waves Chris, they are actually identical if i connect both coils up to show the correct phase against each other, so when they are in series they actually produce double the amplitude.
I think i have found something i need to look at, my analogue meter that measures the voltage across the cap does not go up nice and smoothly it jerks up, i was thinking well it's been in storage for over a year and we had a house move and it got knocked, unfortunately i don't have another analogue meter to try, but limping on one drive this morning going anti clockwise it still did it so i also monitored the voltage accumulation on the scope and this also shows fast and slow periods of voltage rise on the cap, as if certain lower speeds favour voltage generation and accumulation on the cap.
I had quiet a play last night , altering the rotor/stator gaps, played with magnet polarity on some of the gen coils and could not make any alteration to the flat period we are interested in.
Anyway i left my TIP42's at work so i can bring those home and fix the broken driver, i will also see if it blew the hall.
Then i will try to map the voltage versus speed buildup of voltage on the cap, and then move to working on one gen coil.
Cheers Guys.
Peter
wattsup i am wondering if it would be possible to count the revs of the rotor frame by frame and work out what RPM he was running at with the bulbs on, probably impossible due to the low frames per second but just an idea, the other way i guess maybe to do an analysis of the sound spectrum. Maybe someone could point me to the best software to run for this, if i did a spectrum of the noise with his bulbs on and then ran the software live i could alter my supply voltage and tune for the same spectrum.
Also now i realize he was running fairly slow i am thinking about super gluing 5mm magnets on top of the existing 10mm magnets to get it how he had is.
@Peterae
I don't think you understand the importance of my last post. Please read it again. It just solved the major part of the Romero Wheel mystery. This Romero would never say to anyone BECAUSE IT WAS TOO SIMPLE AND I AM SURE HE WANTED US TO FIGURE IT OUT ON OUR OWN. The answer is how to drive the coils. There is no other answer to test any more important than this right now, before you do anything else. If this is not fixed, nothing else, no other fine tuning will make enough difference. Mr. Lenz showed up just to tell you "If the drives are not driven properly, I will always win with drag".
The generator coils produce AC alone and in pairs, so regardless of how they are oriented it will make no difference. So the answer had to be in the drive coils. But again it is not only coil orientation but how you drive the coils. AOAO. Please, put everything else aside and tackle this question now before you spend any more time. Once this is fixed, you will quickly find the right angles for the sensor, the right distance for the gap, etc. But without making AOAO, you will not succeed. No one will.
I will have to post this on OU as well.
All the best.
wattsup
wattsup i cannot see anyway of implementing this without noticeable wires or additions to the driver, also having one on 50% of the time and then the other on 50% of the time means i will be burning 3.25Amps constantly @ 12V that's 39 Watts straight out the window.
I am not convinced he did this, we could use flip flops on each driver board and an extra wire between them to make sure they are synced but i just don't see chips on his board and cannot see the extra wires.
If there's any driver coil magic going on theres a clue, he uses a triangular shaped winding on the periphery windings and there's evidence he has added lengths of wire to lengthen the periphery coils as well (for what reason)
My best guess is he is using the periphery coil as a momentary brake, there is no way to make this coil set drive clockwise, the hall is too close to the driving coils for that, the purpose of the momentary brake to be applied is to regulate the speed, simple, no need for fancy PWM controllers, setting the right speed is important to Romero we already know this because his motor does not run at an enormous speed, so one would ask why when normally the faster you can get the more power output from the gen coils.
These are all clues.
I think Romero worked on a straight forward angle to minimize drive power and maximize power production, and during plotting speed versus power out he found some anomalous measurement areas, i have already witnessed these on my voltage meter across the cap, at lower revs my cap suddenly jumps up in steps of voltage instead of a nice linear increase with increasing revs.
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.18, 13:56:24
1) wattsup i cannot see anyway of implementing this without noticeable wires or additions to the driver, also having one on 50% of the time and then the other on 50% of the time means i will be burning 3.25Amps constantly @ 12V that's 39 Watts straight out the window.
I am not convinced he did this, we could use flip flops on each driver board and an extra wire between them to make sure they are synced but i just don't see chips on his board and cannot see the extra wires.
2) If there's any driver coil magic going on theres a clue, he uses a triangular shaped winding on the periphery windings and there's evidence he has added lengths of wire to lengthen the periphery coils as well (for what reason)
3) My best guess is he is using the periphery coil as a momentary brake, there is no way to make this coil set drive clockwise, the hall is too close to the driving coils for that, the purpose of the momentary brake to be applied is to regulate the speed, simple, no need for fancy PWM controllers, setting the right speed is important to Romero we already know this because his motor does not run at an enormous speed, so one would ask why when normally the faster you can get the more power output from the gen coils.
These are all clues.
4) I think Romero worked on a straight forward angle to minimize drive power and maximize power production, and during plotting speed versus power out he found some anomalous measurement areas, i have already witnessed these on my voltage meter across the cap, at lower revs my cap suddenly jumps up in steps of voltage instead of a nice linear increase with increasing revs.
@Peterae
1) It should not be that difficult to implement. I don't know enough about hall sensors but if they have the same method as a micro switch, it is basically using the normally closed side instead of the normally open side. I don't know, but this is the answer. I have checked the logic out from all sides and this is the answer. Romero either knew this or there was a glitch in this drive circuit that caused this but whatever and regardless, this is how the drive coils must work. One on, One off.
2) Your observation confirms AOAO even more. If he put more winding on the D22 set, it is because he wanted the field to reach the next magnet coming in so he needed a stronger field.
3) There cannot be any break if you want something to advance with the least energy possible, the last thing you would want is a brake. The only thing you would want is a continuous forward motive force which AOAO offers. Using a brake and release may work when you have high torque available. You rev up your car and release the clutch. This does not apply to this device.
4) Forget about the power consumption. That is not important especially when you spend energy to produce the right effect, the payback comes later.
What we need now is some serious brainstorming on the drive circuit. Not complicated. The solution is very simple but my EE is not good enough to figure it out. I am only good in the logical and physical methods. Actually, I can see the device working in my mind and play around with parameters to finally figure it out. I am telling you that once the AOAO method is fixed and locked in, the rest will be much easier, otherwise guys will be wasting time.
wattsup
Added; The 50% duty that I mentioned was only to say if the natural rotation and sensor activations occur end up being a total of 50% duty cycle, the energy would not be that much more then just pulsing the drive coils when the sensors are on. But forget about this anyways it does not matter. The energy consumed by the drives is not a problem, because all of that energy will be used for motive force. It is not a waste. Plus, all of that energy will be available to keep the drive coil pushing the rotor against the gen coil drag.
Peter,
I'm assuming your biasing magnets on top and bottom are oriented in such a way as to OPPOSE the rotor magnets, just like in RomeroUK's dynamo. To clarify even further, if the rotor has a N-pole facing UP, than the TOP biasing magnets have a N-pole facing DOWN, and the bottom biasing magnets a S-pole facing UP.
QuoteI had quiet a play last night , altering the rotor/stator gaps, played with magnet polarity on some of the gen coils and could not make any alteration to the flat period we are interested in
Also, let us not forget, that waveform was taken under LOAD, and running in closed-loop!
EM
Another point to remember...
Distance adjustments were possible on may points - Not only the strength of magnets but distance between rotor and stators and stator to stator. Since the closer these become the more critical the adjustment you could have a gap set with a visible tolerance of 1 mm compared to pics and be miles from the force setting of his motor.
Hysteresis of the cores are not likely exactly the same either. All of these are surely factors.
As far as the wires: You could still have some timing differences. Worst case.... you could be applying current to a coil while the rotor magnet is still positioned to decrease the winding inductance. That alone would be good reason for the TIP42 to blow.
Just an example: standard RS 1mH ferrite choke measures almost precisely 1 mH with a Q of 13 - add a 13x3mm neo to both ends and the measurement drops to .46 mH with a Q of 38. Put those neos in opposition and the measurements are much the same except the Q goes to 43.
In other words....
As far as energy storage potential goes placing the high permeability low Q core between opposing magnetic fields reduces the apparent permeability slightly but greatly enhances the Q.
So when things are right... I strongly suspect the issue of low voltage, low winding resistance/inductance, etc. will be forgotten.
The odd running curve spots where there are bursts of voltage and current.... I think this will be the norm after you have three or more coils adjusted well and working sequentially.
Just don't throw the baby out with the bath water, yet. Most of these motor principles were on my list for things to demonstrate on my OUR bench. It may happen, yet >:-)
EM
from a previous post of mine i established the bias magnets can only go one way up, i am using south up on rotor and the bias magnets can only go north up, the reason is he used the biggest bias magnet on a particular coil is because it orientates the rotor in the only position that aligns the rotor hall in the correct position to fire when at rest, as you have seen the in the video it rocks back and forth when power is applied this can only happen when the bias magnets are north up and the biggest magnet favours the rotor start position.
WW yes indeed, infact i thought on this some today, it happened just after i placed the rotor magnet in a new way i twisted it slightly to see what the effect would be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTHVYuBG3OY&feature=dgst_fri
Repost the vid link and I will use my android spectrum analyzer to vid the display then you can see the pattern.
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.06.18, 08:03:26
wattsup i am wondering if it would be possible to count the revs of the rotor frame by frame and work out what RPM he was running at with the bulbs on, probably impossible due to the low frames per second but just an idea, the other way i guess maybe to do an analysis of the sound spectrum. Maybe someone could point me to the best software to run for this, if i did a spectrum of the noise with his bulbs on and then ran the software live i could alter my supply voltage and tune for the same spectrum.
Also now i realize he was running fairly slow i am thinking about super gluing 5mm magnets on top of the existing 10mm magnets to get it how he had is.
Hi Gk
That would be great, this is Romero's video i am interested in but i need to find the section, i am only interested when he has the bulb on so i will look through the video and add the time on the video below
http://www.youtube.com/v/8KVU3ZM14rw&hl=en_US
OK 2:26 he switches the bulb on and 4:46, it is here i would really like to know the noise spectrum, infact if you could do between 2:26 and 4:46 that way we could see if there are any differences between bulb on and off, i don't know it maybe easier for you to do the whole vid , it's what ever is easiest for you
Thankyou
Peter
I could not get the video and the analyzer in the same shot but I did mention 2:46.
Ran out of battery and camera doesn't focus up close.
It is best to click on video and go straight to youtube. Maybe download it.
Sorry for the delay gk, thankyou for the audio spectrum.
Not had much time last couple of days, current work in progress is to build my RPM readout so i can see live the revs while i experiment and load up each coil.
On another note what is this across the bridge, looks like a short from one side of the coil connection to the 0v bus side of the bridge.
This bridge has the coil connected to the +V buss
Scrub the last image, it was blur from camera movement
as can be seen here, but now the diode is the wrong way round look at the cathode marks
EDIT Hey i just noticed something else on this frame, theres another hole drilled in the top plate with a wire going down that's not a coil wire,just let of the bridge under the black wire
wow could it be some of this black wire is screened 2 core wire, the hole has the typical white glaze that you get when you drill through the perspex due to light refraction
Peter, that hole with the copper wire going down is the coil wire, isn't it?
I think you might need a break from looking at all these close-ups :P
.99
Well maybe it is Darren, but it's unusual for it to be so far away, look at how close the wire is on the next clockwise coil, it's a few mm away from the edge of the coil, i will try to look at the video again and see if i can see the coil wire as well.
Here's some inductance readings from the coil in situ
No bias magnet
Rotor magnet away from coil 1.84mH
Rotor magnet under coil 982uH
Half size bias coil North up
Rotor magnet away from coil 1.836mH
Rotor magnet under coil 1.80mH
Half size bias coil South up
Rotor magnet away from coil 1.253mH
Rotor magnet under coil 552uH
Forgot i only have 1 psu at home so cannot do wattsups tests tonight
Here's a video of low RPM , all bridges connected and a 5 Watt bulb load
The first video has no bias magnets on the stator plates apart from the large magnet on the coil being scoped and connected to the bridge.Notice i do see rotor modulation while the tests are run.
The second video is the same but without any bias magnet on the stator plate.
Peterae,
Do you have the metal washer installed with a non-metallic gap between the washers and stator magnet?
Hi WW
No not tried that, my magnets are sticking straight on to the washers, i can try that, the magnets come with separation washers and for good reason, i have 2 1cm magnets stuck together and i have been unable to separate them so far LOL
What would you like a similar video with the magnet and the plastic spacer washer, will be tomorrow now though
No thanks.
I suggest you try a ferrous washer attached to the rotor-side of the stator magnets, each separated by a plastic washer. If you have N35's or greater the spacer should be about 2mm thick or more. The outside diameter should be a couple of mm larger than the magnets.
As you might guess, I believe the ferrous washers serve a purpose other than a place to stick the magnets ;)
Your scope shots with the 'bias' magnets tells me the stator field isn't to quick to separate on your rig.
I'll be taking a bench break this weekend. Hopefully, I will be able to demonstrate my ideas better with some pics & data.
Watch your fingers ;D I have two ring magnets from military magnetrons that repel each other through 3/8" plate steel. I got them stuck together one time and think I stopped trying to separate them after two weeks of trying. Finally, I used a bench vise and hydraulic jack to separate them :D
Peterae,
To separate the magnets:
Put on leather gloves, then place the edge of one magnet at the edge of a counter top while pushing downward on the second magnet. You should be able to slide it off. Be Careful.
I have 2.5mm x 2.5mm discs and that works for me...
@Peterae
I have a question. Can your wheel turn on one 9vdc battery, if not two in parallel or in series? If yes put this on the drive coils, run the wheel, then take a capacitor in parallel wit the battery then connect the dc output rail to this also to see what happens. But the most important question is can you use one or two 9vdc batteries to run the wheel without load? Can it last at least 2-3 minutes.
I have almost finished preparing a post on the wheel and ways to give you some more insight into the device and how to work with it.
I will post this here soon. It is kind of long but as of Wednesday I will be on vacation for a week. So I wanted to get things out before then that may be helpful to you and other builders.
wattsup
Hi DC
I have the Tacho from china but i need to hold it and point it at the reflective strip and hold the test button down to get a live reading, the problem with this is that it's too hard to do other things at the same time, i want to build a tacho i can glue on top and get live readings so i am free enough to try other things.
You have to hold the button down to keep it reading constantly, but it's the holding of it as well, i might as well just finish the board i made and knock a bit of software up to do the job and permanently fix it to the motor, time has not been on my side this last couple of weeks unfortunately but i will get there eventually LOL
I think you must have been unlucky with the one you bought otherwise the sellers would be getting bad feedback all the time, they are so cheap for what they are.
indeed i am, 8 pin pic, 2 display driver chips, 4 7-Seg displays and use a hall sensor to count up and run a timer to reset to zero every second.
@Peter, that sounds cool. Please consider posting details of your PIC counter when done if you get the time. (I use Oshon PIC18Simulator IDE). I have parts to make similar, was going to use it to verify audio square wave frequencies.
@DeepCut, I bought the same tach, the downside is as Peter says, you do have to hold it down to get a test. I used a test strip about 1/4 inch on my drill press to see if the counting worked, seemed to. Have to maintain a perpendicular angle. Wouldn't be too hard to rewire for a hard on/off, I don't think though I haven't opened the case yet.
Does the laser turn on? I am sure the seller would remedy the situation.
Received these 2010-02:
Quote from: ArtistGuy on 2011.07.02, 15:51:19
@Peter, that sounds cool. Please consider posting details of your PIC counter when done if you get the time. (I use Oshon PIC18Simulator IDE). I have parts to make similar, was going to use it to verify audio square wave frequencies.
@DeepCut, I bought the same tach, the downside is as Peter says, you do have to hold it down to get a test. I used a test strip about 1/4 inch on my drill press to see if the counting worked, seemed to. Have to maintain a perpendicular angle. Wouldn't be too hard to rewire for a hard on/off, I don't think though I haven't opened the case yet.
Does the laser turn on? I am sure the seller would remedy the situation.
@ArtistGuy,
Here is a RPM counter I did make.
http://home.no/ufoufoufoufo/RPM.rar (http://home.no/ufoufoufoufo/RPM.rar)
GL.
Hi AG
I can certainly post the code and diagram although it uses 2 SM chips and the pcb is a bit hard for anyone who's not good at pcb making.
GL's looks simpler to me :)
@Groundloop
Thanks for the .rar, that will be fine. Very nice work.
@Peter
Thanks for the offer.
Robert
Well i have been spending some time finally trying to get my rpm counter up and running and have found one of my display chips is damaged, and have just realized i can use a little frequency counter i have and just hook this to the periphery hall this will save me some time which i really dont have much of right now.
so i guess i am almost ready to start some more tests.
So what do you all think would be a good work through of tests, if there's particular things you want tested i will try to make up a video to answer each test.
I have a 1K 25Watt variable resistor i can use as a variable load.
I also now have the 47000uF cap.
I have connected all drive coils to the bridges, connected up my 47000uF cap and have the rotor as close as i can without crashing the coils, i am using a 12V 5 Watt bulb for a load.
There are no magnets applied to the washers and i am only driving with the rotor drive coil pair circuit.
Here's a plot of output Power/Input Power or COP taken at 0.5 volt intervals starting at 5V input supply, i maintained the input current to 1 amp throughout the tests.
Also a plot of RPM vs Cop
and a plot of RPM vs Input Volts
From this data we can see a lower RPM is more efficient and in this case around 395 RPM while the RPM is linear against drive voltage
EDIT had to re do the RPM vs Input voltage as the x axis is always in linear steps and this distorted my data
Not meaning to change the subject, but I saw earlier in the thread where you mentioned you nibbled your cores down to 15 mm or so then flat ground them on the belt sander, which is sort of the approach I've been using (via a carbide hacksaw blade first then the sander).
I am wondering just how perfect these cores likely need to be, as sometimes they chip on the edges, and otherwise, won't be within microns of sameness?
Robert (AG)
Hi AG
yeah it was not easy to get them the same, i started with 30 of them and by the end i picked the best but they certainly were not perfect, slightly different lengths and as you say some got slightly chipped.
Now the next round of tests concentrate on 1 gen coil pair, so all the others were disconnected from the bridge with only the 1 set of gen coils connected to the bridge, i still have the 47000uF cap and 12v 5 watt bulb connected for these tests
1) No Bias magnets
Input 12V @ 1.14A = 13.68 Watts
Output 4.25V @ 190mA = 0.8075 Watts
823 RPM
COP = 0.05903
2) Large Bias magnet top & bottom North facing up on both magnets
Input 12V @ 1.14A = 13.68 Watts
Output 4V @ 190mA = 0.76 Watts
Stopped the test @ 3000 RPM
COP = 0.0556
3)Large Bias magnet top & bottom South facing up on both magnets
Input 12V @ 1.1A = 13.2 Watts
Output 3V @ 160mA = 0.48 Watts
522 RPM
COP = 0.03636
Should i bother doing top mag North up bottom magnet South up and vice versa?
Test 1 & Test 2 were comparable to the tests i did yesterday with regard to cop but with increased RPM when the Input was at 12V
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.07.11, 19:30:59
Should i bother doing top mag North up bottom magnet South up and vice versa?
Test 1 & Test 2 were comparable to the tests i did yesterday with regard to cop but with increased RPM when the Input was at 12V
Might be handy, for reference's sake, if not too much trouble. I am surprised that your output wattages seem so low? Is that from just one coil? Or the summation of all? I see where you said you had them all connected. Thanks for posting your results.
I will try and get my cores to within a 1/2 mm or so, belt sander willing (these things break well but don't sand well). I am not sure what kind of saturation or permeability, etc the ones I got have, they were from Lithuania (ebay). Good deal for the quantity though. I got 25, can get 2 per easily, but have broken 3 so far, and washed one then heat treated it in the dryer by accident. Surely that one will be the one to make it all work. 8)
Peterae,
When you say 'Bias magnets top and bottom' are you placing the magnets on the drive coils?
If on the gen coils.... I suggest disconnecting the gen coils and not shorting them out. Then, place one set of stator magnets on a gen coil pair and adjust the top/bottom magnets spacing & stator/rotor/stator gaps for lowest drag on the motor coils. There should be a point where the vertical location of the gen coils are roughly in the middle between the rotor magnet field and the bias magnet field where drag and cogging is minimal.
I wouldn't worry about peaking voltage output at this point. Just minimize the drag on the motor coils.
I will continue with mine. Serious family matters right now :(
BTW: I used a diamond circular saw on my Dremmel to cut cores. No sanding needed.
:)
AG
Not sure if you had seen my post about my cores but they came from UK Farnell 3C90 ferrite.
http://uk.farnell.com/ferroxcube/rod6-20-3c90/ferrite-rod-20x6mm/dp/1784209
No magnets on the drive coils just one set of gen coils, i am placing just how Rom did, that is on the metal washer on the top & bottom of the stator plates.
If i have no load at all on the gen coils then my rotor speed max's out, although i guess i could turn down the input volts real low maybe 3v or so.
What config of the bias magnets are you referring to North up or South up, you can see the difference in the above tests.
Tell me, i have a list of things to deal with at home and at work, trying to do the house up, i work 6 days a week, with Monday off and cannot wait to go back to work Tuesday for a rest :)
I should be taking scope shots as well thinking about it, i add some tomorrow
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.07.11, 20:32:18
:)
AG
Not sure if you had seen my post about my cores but they came from UK Farnell 3C90 ferrite.
http://uk.farnell.com/ferroxcube/rod6-20-3c90/ferrite-rod-20x6mm/dp/1784209
Saw that, thanks. Did not know of them until too late. Will keep that for reference.
@WaveWatcher
Dremel diamond wheel...set up as a mini-tablesaw complete with mini-miter should do the trick speedily. I'll order a set from ebay.
Just make sure everything is rock-solid for the cut and take it slow.
OK i have just fallen in love with a chip only been going out with it for 10 minuets LOL, the MRS will have to go in the morning. :)
The UGN3503 no wonder they discontinued this little baby glad i had some in stock, although i guess it may have been superseded, bandwidth 23kHz self biased midway for 0 Gauss, with a supply voltage of 6 volts we have a calibrated range of +/- 900 Gauss and 1.3mv/G
So here i have attached the UGN to the top of my main drive coil core on the top, i have used a periphery hall to pulse me at TDC of the drive coil to give me a position of the magnetic field in relation to the center of the drive coil, Green trace is periphery and yellow is the UGN
So here's the result
I have adjusted the hall previously so it's 0G point is mid vertical axis and in the resulting waveform the bottom of the trace is at 0G the UGN scope channel is on 1V per div and as the UGN is calibrated for 1.3mv/G i am getting a swing of between 0 and 1.37V on the scope so therefore the top of my drive coils core is seeing a swing from 0G to 1000G oops looks like i am getting more out of this chip than the datasheet says, or it may well be the calibration is out slightly as the datasheet does say between 0.75 and 1.75mv/G.
Anyway i can see clearly now what magnetism i have on my cores
So i now know i am not seeing any pole shifting on my drive coil
EDIT i am not using the periphery hall to drive the coil transistor only as a marker,i am using the drive coil pair that's triggered from the rotor magnets.
one other thing the green trace appears to show when my drive transistor is switched on because there's a slight voltage drop on the rail when the coils are switched on, well i think that's what it is anyway.
OK so now i am confused.
I have attached a scope shot of the UGN above a loaded gen coil and i still get the sameish waveform and amplitude of Gauss swing, i have used the spare hall to also mark TDC of the gen coil, now the phase of the magnetic field is not TDC from the magnet/core position, but the weird thing is the amplitude of the magnetic field does not change if i unload the coil, so i will say this again why is the magnetic field in a loaded coil and unloaded coil exactly the same.?
Surely loading a core should use the magnetic field up as it's converted to energy within the coil
EDIT i did not really mean use up and should have said loaded.
It also looks like i am getting a slight pole shift from my center line on the gen coil as well because the bottom of the UGN waveform is below my center line on the scope, although i did not check the zero G point before the test, i assumed it should not have altered from the previous test.
The interesting thing about the amplitude, just to confirm if i pull the hall away from the core just slightly it's amplitude does lower so i know i am scoping whats there and there's no sign of clipping i would expect if i was over driving the UGN with a too strong magnetic field.Basically i am saying the UGN seems to be plotting exactly what it is seeing.
Not quite TDC, no apparent 'using-up' of the magnetic field, no expected 'reversal'.....
Kinda interesting, isn't it?
I'll add a similar sensor to mine and add that to the list.
Thanks Peterae!
You beat me to it, Peter, congratulations! I had secretly ordered ratiometric hall sensors (4 of them, can go up to +/-4600 Gauss), and wanted to do exactly what you are doing. I received my package on friday but didn't have time over the weekend, thanks to wattsup and his FAKE theories. LOL ;D I spent all the time analyzing videos. I also ordered a few latching halls for powering my motor.
Quotethe UGN seems to be plotting exactly what it is seeing.
yes, and they are linear too!
QuoteI have attached a scope shot of the UGN above a loaded gen coil and i still get the sameish waveform and amplitude of Gauss swing, i have used the spare hall to also mark TDC of the gen coil, now the phase of the magnetic field is not TDC from the magnet/core position, ...
The shift is real ! :)
Quote... but the weird thing is the amplitude of the magnetic field does not change if i unload the coil, so i will say this again why is the magnetic field in a loaded coil and unloaded coil exactly the same.?
Yeah, that is interesting. Basicaly the loading just moves the phase back and forth. Or just backwards. but what would make it move "forth" or ahead? there's something to think about. Answer? Capacitor! :)
EM
Nice one EM glad i beat you to it though ;D
Cheers WW it is so nice being able to see the field strength and polarity.
Now i need to add current phase into the equation somehow i should think that a carbon resistor across the coil should do, then i can compare magnetism and current phase.
EM sorry i posted before you had finished.
It had not occurred to me that the phase shifts with the load applied against unloaded, i will try to do this tomorrow, I wonder if the phase varies with speed of rotation also or the amount of phase shift in degrees would be less at greater speed, i am guessing it will and this would then give zero fossil fuels a nightmare, because he tuned 2 coils to speed up the rotor but when he tries tuning the next 2 then the previous 2 would go out of tune, he would get stuck in an endless de-tuned state :D he was promising OU by a couple of weeks ago LOL
Offcourse i can now get round that by using a pic to auto tune the cap value for each gen coil simply by monitoring the field phase.
Keep in-mind that the plot from a hall sensor will not match the output of a coil. Not the waveform, anyway.
The upward plot of the hall output will be related to above zero on a voltage output and below zero voltage on the downward swing(of the hall output)( or vise-versa ).
The point is.... the passing rotor magnet should not cause a magnetic reversal. Since the rotor magnet magnetic force is roughly the same as either top or bottom stator magnet force, sticking the rotor magnet in between the stator magnets just causes the rotor magnet field to ' flatten ' while both stator fields are shoved up or down, but away. In other words... when the rotor magnet is in between the stator magnets there are two radial fields formed.
Those radial fields are polarized at the center and at the periphery of the radial field.
It might be interesting to see that with your sensor.
The motor doesn't need to turn to see what I described.
As for why the Gaussian plot doesn't change with load.... The above statements are already enough to start a post bombing war :D Relax. It is the way it should be.
Quote
it is so nice being able to see the field strength and polarity
My favorite 'bitch' ;D
Even though someone skilled in these arts can safely assume what the magnetic fields are doing, in almost any case, you should never assume. My favorite 'bitch' is that folks speak of magnetic fields and don't even have the proper equipment to measure them. They use a voltage or current probe/connection to measure magnetic fields ? ? ? Of course, we can just take the current and voltage readings and do the math :o
Fine if you are repairing a power supply or flashlight ('torch' - to you Peterae ;) ) or something else just as common.
TDC = Top Dead Center,
this is automotive terminology, when the piston reaches the TOP of the cylinder, literaly, and than the spark fires at little after or before TDC.
In a rotor, we sort of know what Peter means by this, it's when the rotor magnet alignes perfectly with the ferrite, so they both share the same axis for an instant.
EM
QuoteThose radial fields are polarized at the center and at the periphery of the radial field.
It might be interesting to see that with your sensor.
I can certainly plot this with the sensor and see what i get, i think i am already seeing the pole shift but it should be interesting to zoom in a little and see how large it is and exactly where it's occurring. O0
I am guessing without a strong theory on this that i am not seeing a reduction in field strength with the gen coil loaded, because the energy generated in the coil is a product of cutting the lines of force and therefore no energy is taken from the overall magnetic field strength, the only purpose of the magnetic field is to couple the rotational force of the rotor and the coil, when the force lines are cut the energy generated in the coil is from the rotational force of the rotor and not the magnetic field, the stronger the magnetic field the more lines of force get cut, the bigger the induced energy and the stronger the coupling of rotational force to the rotor and hence it slows more.
The scope shot below shows current on the green trace using a low ohm high watt pot across a gen pair of coils and yellow the magnetic field in the top coil this shows the current phase in relation to the magnetic field in the core under load.
Also for WW i found the zero G voltage of my UGN @ 2.97v
When the rotor magnet is TDC i get 4.52V and when the rotor magnet is farthest away i do indeed get a pole swing @ 2.69V which is below the 0G point
Also for EM
The magnetic field is only out of phase from the center of the core when the rotor accelerates or decelerates, i get a phase shift to the left for acceleration and a phase shift to the right during deceleration, i created the acceleration and deceleration by adjusting my low ohm high wattage pot, once the rotor speed stabilises the magnetic phase remains at zero TDC wether under a high ohm load or a low ohm load, so it's only a change in velocity that causes a magnetic phase shift O0
Ah!
Then you should see almost the same G signal with no stator magnets.
If so, my description is how I adjusted my very similar generator. The point was to minimize Lenz on magnet approach by presenting a radial field to each half of the coil pair at TDC.
Sorry for the confusion WW so far i have not used any stator bias magnets
Good show Peterae! O0
Perfect weapon and executioner. I'm getting the pop corn and drink for the bias magnet part. Both polarities, right? :D
QuoteAlso for EM
The magnetic field is only out of phase from the center of the core when the rotor accelerates or decelerates, i get a phase shift to the left for acceleration and a phase shift to the right during deceleration, i created the acceleration and deceleration by adjusting my low ohm high wattage pot, once the rotor speed stabilises the magnetic phase remains at zero TDC wether under a high ohm load or a low ohm load, so it's only a change in velocity that causes a magnetic phase shift
Peter,
this is extremly interesting! You've motivated me to continue my exploration and research and to go ahead and hook up my Hall sensors.
EM
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.07.20, 20:40:44
Sorry for the confusion WW so far i have not used any stator bias magnets
Ok. Set my comments about radial fields aside until you have the stator magnets employed. I can't find any signs of weapon blows, yet :)
As for the other... You are looking at something called 'motor slip'.
The inductive reactance will change with the slip since the stator impedance is the phase sum of the constant resistance and the variable inductive reactance.
When the motor accelerates the inductive reactance is high and impedance is mostly inductive. The stator represents a low, lagging power factor. When the rotor speed increases the inductive reactance of the stator goes down equaling the resistance.
In addition: The variation of load is the major factor for what you are seeing, not so much acceleration except while the rotor is lagging or leading the drive pulses.
So, what you described is pretty much how a conventional motor works :)
It is so much more informative when you can see all aspects, isn't it?
:) Yes indeed i still have bias magnets to do yet 4 variations of.
WW thankyou for the explanation in a form that's easily understandable.
When i am doing the bias magnet tests should i sandwich the UGN between the top of the core and place the magnet of top of the UGN, if so there will be a slight gap where the wires come out between the sandwich. or should i place the UGN on top of the bias magnet or try tests with both.
My suggestion is to widen the mechnical gaps to make any measurement possible. The force magnetudes may be less this way but you will have a more complete picture with more testing options.
Do you mean the gaps between the bias magnet and the coil core, if so then there is already a gap of about 5mm in the stator hole and then maybe 1-2mm thickness of washer on top.
Or do you mean widen the gaps between the rotor magnets and the coils or both
I would remove the coils (with the stator magnets in position) and adjust all gaps so you can plot the fields at different stages of rotor/stator magnet relative positions.
The radial field (apparent null induction for the coil) will be centered between opposing magnets.
In addition to the usual, changing the angle of the magnetic flux through a conductor loop also causes current induction. This is not normally calculated for induction and would be a good thing to look for.
Imagine the coil output if all possible causes for induction are employed together ;)
QuoteI would remove the coils (with the stator magnets in position) and adjust all gaps so you can plot the fields at different stages of rotor/stator magnet relative positions.
This is not possible because my coils are glued in place, but i cannot see any reason why i could not make a mock up of a rotor magnet, air gap, then stator magnet and insert my UGN to find the neutral zone
Or just position the UGN in between coils
Just to complete the non bias stator magnet tests i thought i would try to capture the magnetic phase shift on camera, which was no easy task because i have to hold the periphery hall dead center and in exactly the right position to get a small marker pulse, anyway after some fiddling i managed it to a degree, i am now thinking maybe i am only getting a phase shift on deceleration, maybe i need to watch the video myself just to confirm.
Anyway in this video i am triggering on the UGN hall so the periphery is relative to it.
EDIT ok having watched it there does seem to be a shift on aceleration
I managed to zoom in on one wave to see it a bit clearer
You can hear when it's speeding up and slowing down, i am doing this by adjusting the resistive pot load
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.07.21, 13:52:02
This is not possible because my coils are glued in place, but i cannot see any reason why i could not make a mock up of a rotor magnet, air gap, then stator magnet and insert my UGN to find the neutral zone
Or just position the UGN in between coils
I agree but do include the trigger magnet as well. Perhaps you should leave the trigger magnet out at first.
Loaded coils will have an effect upon any magnetic fields you see. This effect may not be visible without the odd rotor/stator magnet combination.
My opinion is one should have a clear picture of the field interactions before worrying about what the coil will change.
I thought i would go ahead first and see what happens when i add bias magnets.
In these 2 videos you can see what magnetic field i get on top of the core with first a north up bias magnet on top and bottom stator coil and then second south up top and bottom.
Towards the end of each video i start sliding away the magnet from the washer to show the effect it has, this is done on the top bias magnet only.
I have include a photo to show the setup, you can also see the 25 watt 1K pot which is set to short for a starting point and minimun revs.
North up
South up
The Hall was between the stator magnet and washer in both videos?
The legs of the hall are bent 90 degrees so the flat face of the hall lays flat on the surface of the coil core i pushed it through the drilled perspex hole until it butts to the core, you then have a gap of about 2-3mm before the perspex surface is reached then 1-2 mm of iron washer then another 2mm spacer to allow the wires to come out from the hall then the magnet is placed on top of this.
see attached rough sketch
Ok. Then the waveforms make sense... except..
When you said 'North up' and 'South up' did that include the rotor magnet? I believe either orientation of the stator magnets requires an opposing orientation of the rotor magnet.
The waveforms indicate the rotor magnet was always in opposition.
Rotor magnet is South Up and glued in position
Have i made a mistake, both videos seem to be the same, if one was really south up and the other north up they should be a lot different, so i guess maybe i didnt flip the magnet correctly
I use a compass to indicate the polarity of the magnet and sometimes it gets stuck with these real strong magnets, i must by a felt tip pen and write on them
Both videos indicate that the stator magnet has a better 'connection' than the rotor magnet.
This connection is so strong that the rotor magnet wouldn't be able to effect induction.
I suggest adding plastic washers (or something like that ) between the stator magnet and coil core.
WW I think you missed my last post as we were both posting at the same time.
At the end of each video i do slide the magnet away, this can be seen when the waveform starts to go into a sine wave, i want to re do these videos because i am sure that they are the same, if the bias magnets really were swapped over then the hall should have been biased below it's 0G bias point and the 2 videos above don't seem to show this, i use a compass to check the pole of the magnet and sometimes it gets stuck because of the strength of the magnet.
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.07.22, 20:06:23
WW I think you missed my last post as we were both posting at the same time.
I read it.
Quote
if the bias magnets really were swapped over then the hall should have been biased below it's 0G bias point and the 2 videos above don't seem to show this
Not necessarily. What the Hall sensor may be showing is the magnetic attraction field between the stator magnet and the core. If the rotor magnet was not close enough to overcome this both videos would appear the same. This is why I suggested increasing the gap between the stator magnet and the core.
@all
Regarding the biasing magnets, when a rotor magnet or any other magnet passes a coil, the output of the coil will be defined by the extreme change in the magnetic field environment around the coil going from no field, to full field, to no field. Now when you are biasing the coil, it seems to me that the coil output will be reduced because the coil no longer can see the greatest extreme change in field because there is always a field present, say partial field, full field, partial field, then the rotor magnet has to overcome that partial field for the coil to see the difference in the two and output what it does.
Also, with 8 neo magnets per rotor, we know that even when the magnets are positioned so the center point between two rotor magnets is at TDC to a coil, meaning the rotor magnets are the farthest away possible from the coil, their fields are still present near the coil given they are of neo type so very strong fields. This means a condition of no field, full field and no field is not possible to begin with. This you can see since there will be no horizontal in the output waveform.
Knowing that a coil wants to see the ideal magnetic field change from zero field to full field, and given that biasing the coil will reduce that extreme as well as given the distances of the rotor magnets from one to the other, I am thinking that maybe the best rotor magnet number would be 6 or 7 magnets and not 8. Eight would be fine if the rotor diameter was increased since the magnets would be spread out further and the field extremes would be more emphasized.
The other option I am thinking is to use 8 magnets with the diameter of the rotor as it is now but have each magnet fixed inside a metal ring that is 1/4" higher and that surrounds the magnet then both placed as one into the rotor wheel magnet holes. If the metal rings could muffle the magnets outgoing edge field you would have a better zero field between the rotor magnets and the coil would see a greater change in the field and produce more output and the drag period would be shorter. Also the top hall sensor would be more precise in its activation period permitting less activation slippage.
So the use of the biasing magnets will have a give and take effect. It may give some freer passage to the rotor magnet, but it will take away some output production from the coil. I am then thinking that if the biasing magnets do provide some beneficial action to the rotor rotation but also hindering output production, then maybe they should be positioned not over the gen coils but between the gen coils.
wattsup
I gotcha WW i have been trying for 2 hours, i can see the null zone on my UGN and set up the magnet position for it but i cannot see any difference on the scope trace across the coil other than the shape of waveform i already have, i have tried also widening the gap between the rotor magnets and the coil core distance and tried again still with no luck, i will try again soon, but no matter what i do i do not get any other shaped waveform yet, even holding the magnet in my hand and slowly moving on to the washer to simulate varying the magnet strength as it approaches.
There's only one magnet set on the rotor hence the large flat area and the coil is unloaded
Any way on another note i also carried out a coil test on my North-North glued magnets and this is what i get on the coil waveform
Which probe setting applies to that channel?
Are you getting ~60V P-P or ~6V P-P?
6V pk-pk, i was not aiming for high voltage, although i knocked up a coil using a drill and one of those bobbins, and filled the spool with the thin wire so it's high turns and not litz, i just wanted to see if the curve was different with the 2 north poles forced together.
Also the rotor was spun in a drill and the coil was held close, my biggest problem was pressing the enter key on the keyboard to capture the scope shot LOL
;D
Ok. I assumed it should be 6 but the 10X side was highlighted.
I must wind a new coil set. Then, I should be able to generate the waveform, setup marker pulses, scope fields, etc.
Off to the bench. If the wife sees me at the computer I'll receive a new task :(
Just means it is set for x10 probe.
I have not given up yet, i need to get back to it as soon as i can i would probably say it must be dam hard to find the correct position, i was not using a marker so maybe the phase is shifting to indicate when i am there, certainly not seen the waveform shape change anyway, it maybe a case of opening up the rotor/coil gap even more.
I will first try to study this with just the hall and 2 magnets and see if i can judge how critical the adjustment is.
Quote from: wattsup on 2011.07.23, 13:56:53
Regarding the biasing magnets, when a rotor magnet or any other magnet passes a coil, the output of the coil will be defined by the extreme change in the magnetic field environment around the coil going from no field, to full field, to no field. Now when you are biasing the coil, it seems to me that the coil output will be reduced because the coil no longer can see the greatest extreme change in field because there is always a field present, say partial field, full field, partial field, then the rotor magnet has to overcome that partial field for the coil to see the difference in the two and output what it does.
If anyone has an interest in this they should perform an experiment. The laws of induction are quite clear but almost everyone pays no attention to the details.
Yes, adding a magnet to a ferrous core coil decreases the inductance. You would think that means less coil voltage output. This is true if the fields aren't balanced well enough.
Change in relative motion - change in loop area, change in magnetic field strength .... AND change in angle of the magnetic field relative to the loop.
All play a role in induction. Make all of them work for you at the same time and you will have the highest possible coil output.
The opposing rotor magnet to the fixed stator magnet creates a radial field. This means the coils sees all of the above from the rotor mag approach to the exit.
You don't need thousands of RPM.
I know of a motor design using the same principles to allow the DC motor to work with no commutation. Unfortunately, it does have brushes but they do not switch.