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Author Topic: Should Milehigh be released from his Ban -- POLL  (Read 21542 times)
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Science is not only knowledge. It is also a methodology. "Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of
inquiry must be based on gathering empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning".


Agreed.  And indeed I see a total lack of this all the time.  In my main area of interest you would be amazed by the amount of people claiming to get over-Faraday results from simple electrolysers.  It is also, almost without exception, always the people with no background in science or technology that are making these claims.
   
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For the record, I was in chat with Giantkiller and we were talking about resonance.  He was stating that resonance is definitely an OU phenomenon.  I stated that wasn't the case and then he disappeared.  I assumed that he was "running away" and putting his head in the sand before I could make more points.

Here is what I posted on his YouTube clip:

Quote
"it looks like giant left - there you have it, he didn't quite understand so the path of least resistance is to ignore what I said and keep his same train of thought"

There is the problem right there Giant. You have been believing for years that resonance gives you some sort of "amplification" so you blow up devices with less energy.

Nothing could be further from the truth but you don't want to learn. It's too upsetting to you to hear this because it's counter to your thought processes.

2nd: So perhaps you want to continue experimenting with resonance and you are excited by what you believe are some "magic attributes" that it has that can result in some form of amplification such that you can "blow up" things with less energy. I am telling you that's not the case and that's upsetting to you because it upsets the whole apple cart behind your thought processes and planned experiments.

So you run away and don't want hear and more importantly learn. Very sad.

3rd: And I suspect that you were trying to make a similar argument about an atom bomb and how much energy it takes to trigger one. I don't get that at all. There is no relationship between an atom bomb and any kind of resonance or amplification we were talking about. I can only suspect you are applying similar theories to the atom bomb example. There is no parallel that I can discern. The energy dynamics of an atom bomb have nothing to do with resonance or amplification.

I don't know what this "resonance fetish" is but I suspect it comes from the free energy pulp press.  I get the impression that Giantkiller is a big fan of the free energy pulp press because he makes references to it all the time and perhaps he has read relatively little mainstream scientific literature about electronics and resonance phenomena.  If this is true it can be argued that Giantkiller's mind has been corrupted by what is mostly unscientific junk written to sell books and make money and not much more than that.  Think Tom Bearden.  If it upsets some people when I refer to Tom Bearden's writings and other related prose as "unscientific junk" I am sorry, but that's my opinion.

The "resonance fetish" is pervasive.  Look at all of the testing that was and is being done for the Romerouk builds related to resonance and the myriad of wild and unfounded speculations that are fueling it.  The frustrated replicators are in the "try anything" phase and "resonance" is a big part of that.

Anyway, Giantkiller seems to have lost his soft teddy-bear tone with respect to me:

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Rectically insert a stun gun and tell me what the 9vdc battery does to your colon.

Anyway, in my opinion no one will ever convince Giantkiller that resonance is not an OU phenomenon.  He sees that resonance can "blow things up" with "very little energy" and that's all he sees and he thinks that the pulp press is right and he is right.  Apparently he has been working on TPU stuff on the bench for years.

The fact that he seemingly can't understand that the device that you "blew up" with "very little energy" was absorbing and storing the energy that you put into it over a certain period of time such that it is all a COE phenomenon is something that I am not really going to worry about.   There will probably be at least a dozen postings on the forums today that make fantastical speculations about resonance.  I give up, it's a "force of Nature" around here that just won't quit.

MileHigh
   
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Personally MH, as I've already stated here, I think that you are quite invaluable in keeping things grounded.

From my experiences on various forums, many of the posters appear to have very little interest in real science and indeed learning about it.  In many cases, when it comes to the crunch, the science and maths involved simply gets too complicated for them, especially if they have no background in it, so it's far easier just to ignore. In other cases, as you have alluded to, some people don't want real science to get in the way of their dreams - or their dellusions. In both cases you are often continually banging your head against a brick wall.

I liken it to trying to have a rational conversation about formation of the universe with a deeply religious person... it's impossible, you can't!
   

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Frequency equals matter...


Buy me a drink
Clean up on aisle 5...

What we can come away with is the predominant process is based on
Domain flipping. This was the only clue that was given.

Thank you for the forceful conclusion.

I have builds that operate on resonance and domain flipping.
I can conclude from the amount of character defamation and anti-resonance
focus that was given is that resononce is a key ingredient.  I see no other
offerings.

If resonance is not then alot of fustration has been the posed.

I take it that some are in a hurry here to see this OU thing done by others efforts.

While i have not posted a finished product it has been mentioned to me from a large audience of how close or keep going terms said to me. I know my efforts are close and i thank all who have made those comments.

Regardless of the post attitudes by others i deem all responses as important.

The larger question is why the effort towards finding a person to do the OU bidding and not effort to simply advertise a solution for publication? Publication sure would stop all the mystical pontification and flaming.

Are there those who want control yet are not in a position to advertise? This i have knowledge of.

I thank all here for the insight. I continue on despite the complexities of all to endure.


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Resonance is just a means to work something small into something big, but there is no mechanism for OU there.  You will always get out a little less than you put in.  Anyone purporting resonant effects as OU is full of shit.

Domain flipping: what does that have to do with anything?

If you want electricity, you have to separate the positive and negative charges.  The drift of the opposite particles in opposite directions is what constitutes an electric current.  If you use a magnetic field, then the current is always equal and opposite, so there can be no anomolous gain from conventional magnetic induction.


   

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Frequency equals matter...


Buy me a drink
Resonance is just a means to work something small into something big, but there is no mechanism for OU there.  You will always get out a little less than you put in.  Anyone purporting resonant effects as OU is full of shit.

Domain flipping: what does that have to do with anything?

If you want electricity, you have to separate the positive and negative charges.  The drift of the opposite particles in opposite directions is what constitutes an electric current.  If you use a magnetic field, then the current is always equal and opposite, so there can be no anomolous gain from conventional magnetic induction.


Quote
(10:59:30) MileHigh: Yes the MEG flips domains. Every transformer flips domains so the entire society we live in is powewred by flipping domains.
(10:59:48) MileHigh: So you can reduce weight using400 Hz AC on a plane. But that has no real connection to Tesla's very vague statement.

The only other facet that is in the list and mentioned by Grumpy is 'Scalar' which I have multiple setups for this too.


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...

I liken it to trying to have a rational conversation about formation of the
universe with a deeply religious person... it's impossible, you can't!

When people engage in "conversation" with the intent of converting
beliefs, rationality flies the coop.

We often have an emotional attachment to our beliefs which prevents
us from seriously considering alternatives.

Emotional dogmatism is too often expressed as "real science."

It is possible to correct error without entering into the realm of badmouth.


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For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   

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Frequency equals matter...


Buy me a drink
Chinese proverb: "The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it."

Realization is the next freefall step outside of dogma.


---------------------------
   

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There is no OU in resonance.  Resonance cannot create energy, or free it from some unknown source.

Step back for a while and take a good hard look at what an electric current is, and then explore what is required to create it.

Why does a moving magnet induce current in a coil?

Why does a charged object induce an opposite charge in another object?
   
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Resonance and OverUnity




My thesis for this short write up is the following:    

WE WILL NEVER ACHIVE OVERUNITY, BUT THAT’S OK, WE HAVE RESONANCE!


For those that don’t know me well, my thesis is a bit “tong-in-check”.    Before we discuss Resonance, it is beneficial to discuss this notion of “Overunity”, and to make sure we agree on its definition.  

Let’s begin with a general notion of Overunity, and what it means to some.   A statement that most people would probably agree to is the following:   “if I get more out than I put in, I must have overunity.”   Some think in terms of power flow as:     Pout/Pin > 1   must mean overunity, others in terms of energy Eout/Ein > 1 means overunity (this is more correct ).     However, there is a shortcoming in both of these definitions because the duration of time is not clearly specified.    


Give Me More Time

A good example that illustrates this shortcoming is a battery that powers a light bulb.   Power flows out of the battery and no power flows into it, at the same time, so this qualifies as an overunity device because Pout>Pin, where Pin=0  or if this experiment runs for let’s say 1 second, that Eout>Ein as well.     So obviously there is a need to consider the time history of an experiment and specify the time domain over which we make a determination of overunity.   An obvious time domain for many theoretical studies is the infinite time domain (–INF < t < +INF),   and I chuckle a bit at this definition when I see it, as it’s obviously never going to be implemented properly in the true sense of the word, because our days are numbered and short compared to INFINITY, or all time if time ever had a beginning or it’s ever going to have an end.   However, from a practical point of view, an “infinite” time span can be 1 microsecond and be 99.999999999% accurate compared to an integration over true “infinity”, because if the waveform we are integrating rises from zero and decays back to zero during this time, and outside of these limits it stays at a zero value “forever” we don’t need to worry about the outer bounds (we hope and assume.)

What Are You Hiding

In case you are wondering where I am heading with this, you need not wait any longer.  It’s the concept of energy storage!  Yes most of us know that energy can be stored in batteries as chemical energy, in springs as elastic potential energy, in velocity as in kinetic energy of a rotor perhaps, or in a gravitational potential by lifting a weight to some height from which it can drop and deliver energy.      If we don’t keep energy storage in mind we can be fooled into thinking we might have overunity.  The list of energy storage mechanisms I listed is just a small list that is well known (I hope) but if we are sincere with ourselves we should have the common sense to realize that there are processes out there that we don’t fully understand or even partially, and which could come into play in our experiments.   Seeing excess energy out of an experiment should not induce us to quickly believe we have overunity, unless we are absolutely certain that we have ruled out all forms of energy storage.   This will NEVER be possible in our short life spans, not with 100% certainty at least.   What most likely could come out of this is a discovery of a new form of energy storage, or perhaps a flow of energy previously undiscovered, which leads me to the next discussion.


Send Me Some Energy

Energy flows are everywhere around us.  The sun sends its warm rays upon the earth and supports life in various ways.  Water is evaporated and condenses and we obtain clouds and rain and the rivers carry this water down to the oceans and lakes and the process repeats.  There are also thermal differences in the air and ocean waters and these cause movement and convection to occur and some build windmills to try and capture some of this “free” energy.   So a good point to make at this time is the fact that we need to consider the SYSTEM.   If we let our system be the wind mill, than it appears we have an overunity device, but we know better than that.  We need to expand our system to as large a sphere as possible, but once again we are finite people on a little speck of dust in this huge universe.  There is a slim chance we will comprehend in our lifetimes the immense universe to a level of rigor required for wagering ones hard earned career credentials on backing up this notion of overunity.  So humbly we have to come to the conclusion and determination that we can not claim overunity, because there is too much unknown, and not enough known!


Conservation of Foolishness

Some people are endowed with a certain amount of foolishness which can neither be created nor destroyed.   All jokes aside, we know full well the statement of conservation of energy.  At present it seems to stand on a firm scientific footing and it’s unlikely it will be toppled, and we should be quite happy about this.  If there were a mechanism in nature that created energy we could overheat and perish or if there was a mechanism that consumed energy, than we could cool off and freeze to death. Energy just changes from one form to another; it has many faces and aspects, and there are HUGE amounts of energy all around us.   Some of you might be thinking about ZPE, but to tell you the truth I chuckle at this new notion of ZERO POINT ENERGY, and the long formulas and deep theoretical efforts to prove it.   I took thermodynamics long ago, and it’s no secret that the ambient temperature around us represents Mega Joules of energy per cubed what ever,  inch^3, cm^3, you name it.  We don’t have to go into fancy math to prove there is energy at zero Kelvin, most of us will never even live one microsecond under those conditions.  What we have is a condition of bathing in energy every day of our lives.   The problem is how do I use this energy, or can I use it?   What is needed is a temperature difference which creates a flow of energy, and that we can tap.  (I’ll skip a discussion of entropy and the quality of energy)

Energy Reception

To capture energy that flows, or more appropriately convert it to something we can handle and direct at will, depends on the nature of the flow and it’s behavior over time.  If we have a constant flow of water, like a river, than we’ll use different methods than if it’s alternating, like the waves in the ocean.   These alternating flows of energy need to be handled differently, and this is where RESONANCE comes into play.   Resonance allows us to flow a small quantity into a large quantity, at the correct time when the large quantity will not oppose the small quantity.   It is all about timing and the interplay between energy storage and energy flows.     Let me bring this discussion to something more concrete so we don’t drift off into a philosophical cloud.   Let’s consider Radio Waves and their reception.


WTF ... Over

Since Tesla and Marconi, demonstrated wireless communications (let’s not forget Hertz who proved Maxwell's theoretical deductions), we have not been able to get rid of these manmade electromagnetic disturbances.  (that’s right I want them GONE Turned OFF!  lol)    Most  AM radios used a tuned inductor (by adding a capacitor) and this raises the voltage at the coil terminals from that which can simply be induced magnetically acording to the formula V = -N d PHI/dt.  The tuned coil terminal voltage (not loaded), over the unturned level, is a ratio known as “Q”  or quality.  The higher the Q, the higher the tuned voltage, and the more power is received and “funneled” into our receiver.   I will not make an attempt to prove this to you as it’s more involved than you might care for, but basically the magnetic and electric fields that resonate around the antenna (due to tuning) interacts with the radio waves and their magnetic and electric field vectors.  This interaction is very similar to POSITIVE current flow into a POSITIVE voltage, which means power is delivered to the voltage producing device.    To further illustrate, imagine with me a series of (+) and (-) charges spaced evenly, that move towards the right, perhaps small pellets of metal fired in sequence from a gun and charged appropriately.   Obviously, the net flow of charge is zero, but does this mean that power flow is zero?    The answer is NO.   I can place a controllable voltage source at the receiving end that creates an alternating voltage field to intercept these charges.   It will have a (+) voltage when the (+) charges arrive and a (-) voltage when the (-) charges arrive.   I will thus be able to extract lots of energy from this seemingly NEUTRAL stream of charges.   As each pellet arrives and imparts it’s energy the voltage will get stronger and stronger, and build up to a high level, such that all the energy of the pellets will be dissipated, than we will have a perfect reception of energy.     What I just described is a type of “RADIO” operation based on charges and not RADIO WAVES, just to illustrate the point.   A number of other phenomena can be used, like acoustic energy flows etc..      Resonance is quite important but not overunity per se.    


Conclusion

What Conclusion? , this ain’t over! I don’t know what I’m talking about but it sure feels good to say it.  I never knew the feeling, thanks MH.  If this has helped anybody in any way, send $10 to the GK to help him keep RESONATING away.  Who knows he might down another UFO out of the sky and humanity will undergo “another” discontinuous jump in knowledge.  And who knows, maybe even RomeroUK will benefit from this and will undergo a type of spiritual renewal and confess his sins with tears and penance, and a NEW BUILD!      LOL    Life is short, so RESONATE!


Dr Jackl  (or is it Hyde?)


PS.  I reserve the right to expand and contract my SYSTEM definiton at will,  if I don't like you I'll expand it and tell you how WRONG and DELUDED you are,  but if I like you I'll shrink it and congratulate you on your achivements!    LOL
« Last Edit: 2011-07-19, 23:18:49 by EMdevices »
   

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I think achieving OU requires a different persepctive.  Rather than look for new energy sources that don't exist, look for a better way to convert the energy that we do have into the forms that we need.

When you put a magnet inside a coil and it si still, there is no current induced.  When you move the magnet, current is induced.  We have simple equations to equate the strength of the magnetic field and the velocity of change to the current induced.  Is there any way to increase the current induced by applying a "different length lever"?
   
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EM,

You can't collect energy from a wave by 'waving' with it. You collect by 'waving' against it or some degree of opposition. More commonly known as 'field cancellation'. Of course, your tidal generator won't work if it is in 180 deg. opposition  ;D

Otherwise nice write-up, as you usually do.  :)

Ok. I'm ready for you to 'expand' your field upon me  >:-)
   
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WW,

You know what I was thinking.    

If we had two perfect resonators of infinite Q,  they can influence each other anythwere in the universe, but the bandwidth would be ZERO, since BW = F/Q=f/INF = 0,   and this is bad becasue NO INFORMATION WOULD BE ABLE TO BE TRANSMITTED, of a finite bandwidth,  the only thing we could transmit would be DC.   But that is preposturous!  Or is it?   ???

So what's the point?  There is no point, only a singularity!   LOL   :)

May the fields be with you!  :D

EM
   
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A perfect sine wave has a bandwidth of zero.
   
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@ MH

yes, absolutely true,   but just as true,  there are no PERFECT sine waves.     I spent lot of time with a RADAR trying to elliminate its STALO's harmonic distortion, so doppler would work approrpiatly, but in vain.      >:(

@ DeepCut,   please don't shoot the messenger!    LOL    ;D
« Last Edit: 2011-07-20, 00:36:57 by EMdevices »
   
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What the  >:-) this is a light hearted thread now, so let me throw out this highly speculative idea


Instead of using resonance to amplify a radio signal, how about cutting to the chase, and realize that the end result is a voltage signal that is properly phased with the current induced in the circuit by the magnetic and electric fields of the radio waves.

So,

Imagine we have a coil,  and every time the induced voltage is at a maximum, according to V= - N d PHI/ dt, at a point when the change of flux is maximum,  we than discharge a large capacitor into the coil to cause a HUGE CURRENT.  (might have to do it slightly before peak to allow current to build up due to inductance of the loop)

So a small voltage  V, times a HUGE CURRENT, will now represent a decent sized power flow from a minuscule radio signal.  This all works out because fields add linearly.    But there are some problems with this approach.   a sharp discharge represent a wide bandwidth signal and some of the energy will be radiated away at the resonant frequency of the coil, so maybe we can shape our pulses to avoid this frequency in it's FFT spectrum.   Than we should be able to trigger and fire the caps into the coil and also collect the back EMF from it, but it will represent MORE ENERGY THAN WE PUT IN,   but of course, being wise experimenters and having read Dr. Jackl's treatise on foolishness, we now know better, that energy was actually RECEIVED!       8)


For a while I thought Mr Aviso Ishmael was saying exactly what I just described, but than I realized he was on another "wavelength"!    :D

EM




« Last Edit: 2011-07-20, 08:06:38 by EMdevices »
   
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WW,

You know what I was thinking.    

If we had two perfect resonators of infinite Q,  they can influence each other anythwere in the universe, but the bandwidth would be ZERO, since BW = F/Q=f/INF = 0,   and this is bad becasue NO INFORMATION WOULD BE ABLE TO BE TRANSMITTED, of a finite bandwidth,  the only thing we could transmit would be DC.   But that is preposturous!  Or is it?   ???

So what's the point?  There is no point, only a singularity!   LOL   :)

May the fields be with you!  :D

EM

And with you  ;D

Did you forget about Morse code (over telegraph lines) or digital transmission? Yes, digital on RF makes for plenty of channels over sidebands but the carrier can still carry information by simply switching off and on. I recall encrypted voice being carrier over a a very narrow carrier that couldn't be detected unless you had a spectrum analyzer (a very good one) or a very special receiver and antenna setup.

No matter. I can't find my infinite Q coils anyway  >:(
   
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What the  >:-) this is a light hearted thread now, so let me throw out this highly speculative idea


Instead of using resonance to amplify a radio signal, how about cutting to the chase, and realize that the end result is a voltage signal that is properly phased with the current induced in the circuit by the magnetic and electric fields of the radio waves.

So,

Imagine we have a coil,  and everytime the induced voltage is at a maximum, according to V= - N d PHI/ dt, at a point when the change of flux is maximum,  we than discharge a large capacitor into the coil to cause a HUGE CURRENT.  (might have to do it slightly before peak to allow current to build up due to inducance of the loop)

So a small voltage  V, times a HUGE CURRENT, will now represent a decent sized power flow from a minuscule radio signal.  This all works out becasue fields add linearly.    But there are some problems with this approach.   a sharp discharge represent a wide bandwidth signal and some of the energy will be radaited away at the resonant frequency of the coil, so maybe we can shape our pulses to avoid this frequency in it's FFT spectrum.   Than we should be able to trigger and fire the caps into the coil and also collect the back EMF from it, but it will represent MORE ENERGY THAN WE PUT IT,   but of course, being wise experimenters and having read Dr. Jackl's treatise on foolishenss, we now know better that energy was actualy RECEIVED!       8)


For a while I though Mr Aviso Ishmael was saying exactly what I just described, but than I realized he was on another "wavelength"!    :D

EM






Congratulations EM!

You've just invented the super-regenerative receiver   :o
   
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Milehigh is the yang to our ying, his point of view is exactly what all of us need to keep our motives and results true to science. Like my grandfather (33rd Deg Mason) always said, "If you can't take the punch, best you not scrap!"
   
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Chinese proverb: "The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it."

Realization is the next freefall step outside of dogma.

Nobody says that it cannot be done, but only that resonance is not overunity. Resonance is just a mean for accumulating energy from each period of a cycle.
The dogma of free energy uneducated supporters is that there is more energy at the final step than the sum of energies that one puts in each step. Naturally they are totally wrong and this is proved by the fact that they are unable to give experimental evidence and that we are still searching for overunity in spite of thousands of resonance experiments in the past.


   
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...
Did you forget about Morse code (over telegraph lines) or digital transmission?
...

Morse code is neither DC nor zero bandwidth signal. "Simply switching off and on" generates a rectangular signal whose the bandwidth is proportional to the rapidity of modulation, i.e. the speed at which the operator handles the morse key. If this signal modulates a RF carrier, then the carrier is spread in a bandwidth of same order as the signal bandwidth.
A zero bandwidth signal is a pure sine signal carrying no information: it is the limit of a resonant circuit with Q tending to infinity.

The bandwidth needed for RF transmission of an information signal depends on its rate and on the S/B ratio in the transmission channel. On shortwave where S/B is low, you need in practice for a digital voice transmission a bandwidth of same order as for an analog transmission (~ 2.4Khz, and with poor results).
By lowering the noise in the channel or by increasing the signal level, you can use denser coding methods and theoretically lower the needed bandwidth to an arbitrary narrow band. But in RF channels, noise and other defaults limit drastically this possibility.
There is an exotic theory (see http://www.vmsk.org) about ultra-narrow band transmission, by switching a RF signal by 180° and using special designed filter. I'm not sure it works, in spite the fact that the author seems rather skilled. There is no commercial device using it.

In any case this is related to signal transmission, not to energy.
How a resonant circuit works? It receives little energy at each period of time depending on the resonant frequency, and adds up to the energy it has already stored from the previous periods. Higher the Q, lower the losses, higher its holding capacity, higher the energy that it can store. This can lead to a high level of energy but there is not one experiment showing that the energy in a resonant circuit would be more than the sum of the small energy quantities that previously entered the circuit step by step at each period.

   
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Very good write-up but...

Quote
Morse code is neither DC nor zero bandwidth signal.

In the telegraph line situation.... DC was used, with very few exceptions.

If you are one considering pulsed DC as being AC... I won't argue the point. DC is DC whether it is stable, rising or falling. When it crosses zero then it becomes AC. Until then DC with variations in amplitude is DC with an AC component.

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"Simply switching off and on" generates a rectangular signal whose the bandwidth is proportional to the rapidity of modulation, i.e. the speed at which the operator handles the morse key. If this signal modulates a RF carrier, then the carrier is spread in a bandwidth of same order as the signal bandwidth.
A zero bandwidth signal is a pure sine signal carrying no information: it is the limit of a resonant circuit with Q tending to infinity.

As it is better known in radio circles "CW" (Continuous Wave) is modulation of an RF carrier only in that it turns the carrier off and on. Any sidebands from the transmitter are due to the unavoidable imperfections in the transmitting system. The BFO (beat frequency oscillator) in the receiver, or tuning off-carrier, is what adds sidebands so the signal is more audible. Only the almost impossible 'perfect' transmission system can send a signal with sidebands imperceptible after a short distance. Such systems do exist or 'did exist', at least in the late 70's. I know the (then) digital spectrum analyzers would not display them due to the poor sampling rates. You had to know what and where to look to see them with the best analog analyzers.

Listening for them from the Iron Curtain in West Germany, the transmissions from Berlin were extremely difficult to identify and had absolutely no sidebands from that distance.

Quote
The bandwidth needed for RF transmission of an information signal depends on its rate and on the S/B ratio in the transmission channel.

Only where the intelligence is from the modulation of the carrier. This is true for all types of modulation except on-off carrier systems with specialty suppression of switching noise inherent in any switching device.

Quote
There is an exotic theory (see http://www.vmsk.org) about ultra-narrow band transmission, by switching a RF signal by 180° and using special designed filter. I'm not sure it works, in spite the fact that the author seems rather skilled. There is no commercial device using it.

Perhaps none well known by the public. I'm not familiar with your link. I look forward to reading it, thanks.

The method you describe is familiar to me. It sounds very similar to stealth communications used in the 70's. It wouldn't surprise me that the method is a late bloomer.

My computer screen ( at my workstation - not shown in the attached pic - it was highly classified then ) was what is now known as 800x600 Super VGA. That was as late as 1979. Not all 'new' inventions are really 'new'.


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In any case this is related to signal transmission, not to energy.

Very true.
   
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My Hat's off to you WW,  that's more remote than where I worked, front line stuff!

Here's good reading on Eckstein:    http://www.rimbachvets.org/index.php/main/content/a_general_history


You should be very glad you weren't sent to Drifting Station Alpha in the North Pole,  God, I can only imagine!

http://www.american-buddha.com/lit.bodyofsecrets.6.htm


EM

PS.   The second link I posted is such good reading!   (I hope it's not fiction  lol   :)  )

Here's an excerpt:


Although the effort to locate Soviet early-warning radars along border areas had been growing in success, finding radars hidden deep inside the USSR had proved nearly impossible. But then someone remembered an incident at Cape Canaveral: during the test launch of a Thor intermediate-range ballistic missile, a signal from a ground-based radar a thousand miles away had bounced off the IRBM and reflected. down to the Cape, The CIA had used the experience to develop a system codenamed Melody, which they placed on the banks of the Caspian Sea. The idea of Melody was to focus Elint antennas on Soviet ballistic missiles during their test flights and follow their trajectory, The experiment worked beyond expectations, The intercept antennas were able to pick up signals from Soviet high-powered radars well over the horizon as they bounced off the missiles. Eventually, over the years, the Caspian Sea station was able to produce an electronic map of virtually all the ground-based Soviet missile-tracking radars, including the antiballistic missile radar systems at a test range a thousand miles away.

But Melody was not as successful in locating early-warning radars, especially a new surface-to-air missile system codenamed Tall King. At the time, it was considered essential to map all the Tall King radars to prevent the shootdown of American bombers in the event of war, Also, the CIA had a peacetime interest in knowing the locations of all surface- o- air missile bases. The agency was then completing work on a superfast, super-high-flying successor to the U-2, codenamed Oxcart, (The SR-71 would be a later variant.) Because Soviet missiles were reaching ever greater heights, and because the Oxcart was designed to overfly Russia, discovering the precise locations of these potentially deadly radar systems was vital.

The solution was to be found on the moon. Scientists determined that Tall King radar signals, traveling in a straight line, would eventually collide with the moon at least part of the day. The trick would be to catch the signals as they bounced back to earth. To accomplish this, a complex "catcher's mitt" was built. Near Moorestown, New Jersey, a giant sixty-foot satellite dish was aimed at the lunar surface. Attached to it were very sensitive Elint receivers tuned to the Tall King frequency. Over time, as the earth and moon revolved and rotated, all of the Tall King radars eventually came within view and were charted.



Here's a picture of the radar codenamed "Tall King"   (picture from here:    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Low-Band-Radars.html  and a picture of the type of targets it tries to detect (like the new stealth technologies)  I had the pleasure of seeing one pass me by at 10 MPH, almost floating in mid air,  so much lifting surface, must of been empty with a skiny pilot inside.    :o   ;D
« Last Edit: 2011-07-20, 20:48:51 by EMdevices »
   
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My Hat's off to you WW,  that's more remote than where I worked, front line stuff!

Not a problem. At the time everyone thought we were an Armed Forces Network transmitting station and it was a strategic station. If you ever hear someone say they can hear the Georgian accent of a Soviet fly fart from 3500 miles..... well, it isn't that far from the truth  C.C

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Here's good reading on Eckstein:  ...

Thanks but only did temporary duty there ( had to wear my uniform - yuk!)

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You should be very glad you weren't sent to Drifting Station Alpha in the North Pole,  God, I can only imagine!

Hmm... I worked for someone who was there (what we called a cross-dresser - Air Farce to Army to NSA)

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PS.   The second link I posted is such good reading!   (I hope it's not fiction  lol   :)  )

I doubt that it is fictional. Really, the whole page is actually very reserved  8)  It reads like a family reunion. Lots of stuff on the grill to go with beer... MELODY, SIGINT, ELINT, HUMINT, COMINT, SPOKE, ACKESS, GIANT REACH, REFLECTION, INVISIBLE, PLANAR SILENCE, etc. etc.

(There, that should set off some trigger word alarms  ;D ;D ;D ;D )
   
Group: Guest
EM,

Earlier,  when I glanced at that link you posted, I thought the text was a little too familiar.

I just realized who the author is. It is Jim Bamford. He didn't earn the rank of 'cross-dresser'.

While he never made it past "Intelligence Analyst" in the military. He is the best public source for info on the family activities of 'Big Daddy DIRNSA'.

I can't vouch for all he has written but will say the published level of used technology and abilities he reports of The NSA are a full house short of the total deck.

You can't expect any more. He only has 'The freedom of Information Act' on his side and enough experience to know hidden facts are really there.

FIA does not exist beyond certain walls and for certain folks demanding credit for work previously done.  :(
   
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