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Author Topic: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion.  (Read 712 times)
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img  PhysicsProf
Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « on: 2012-02-16, 20:50:05 »
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Gents --  one more thread; not meaning to proliferate threads, but this is an important one IMO.  For several weeks, I have been experimenting with heating measured amounts of water to determine output energy, using a control resistive heater; also with a few configurations of the "Davey-type Sonic Boilers".  The Davey heaters are discussed more in a thread at EF.com started by David Fine:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8999-peter-daysh-davey-water-heater-query.html

Nerzh Dishual is abreast of the situation as well, and has been doing related experiments in Brest, France.  (Sounds like a great place to visit, Nerzh!  I've been to France quite a lot in years past, but not to your town yet...)  Hopefully he'll describe some of those tests and experiments which he has done.  

The method is quite straightforward, applying the equations:
Qheating = 4.186 J/g-degC * mass of water heated * (Tfinal - Tinitial)

and for water vaporized, we have:
Qvaporization = 2260 J/g * mass of water vaporized.

The last several days, I've been doing runs with a “control” heater, shown in the photo.  

Mains power monitored by two “kill-a-watt” meters; one measures the energy consumed in kW-hrs, and the other the power being consumed during the run.   A stop-watch is used to keep track of the time required for the kW-hr monitor to go from zero to 0.01 kW-h (=36000 J).  That is the sensitivity of this meter; but I have another on order that will go to 0.001 kW-h (3600J).
 
The control water heater, a simple resistive coil (see photo) is rated at 300 W and runs at 301-303 W, and requires 1m58 to 1m59 seconds to use 0.01 kW-hr; which is all consistent, so the meters check out and agree.

Water temp measured by a Fluke 52K/J meter (thermocouple) and checked with an IR temperature probe; agreement there is OK (the IR push-and-read monitor varies more than I like, not as accurate).

An example run from 15 February 2012 involves heating 2000 g of water in a plastic container; I will soon go to styrofoam for better insulation.  The temp rise was 3.3 deg C in 1m58 s, 36kJ input.
Qinto-water = 4.19 * 2000g *3.3C = 27.7 kJ.  
Efficiency = 27.7/36 = 0.77.

The same resistive heater in a 530 ml plastic container showed a temp rise of 12.0 C in 2min,
Qinto-water = 4.19 * 430g *12.0C = 26.7 kJ.  
Efficiency = 26.7/36 = 0.74.

About the same – shows the approximate error bar ~ 4%.

Today I did a run with two “bells”, as shown in the photos.  A “Davey boiler” type of set-up, but no “tuning” was tried.  Not sure how to do the tuning on this!
 120V with the “hot” wire applied to the inner bell and the neutral wire to the outer bell (it's also safer this way!).  The two bells were then mostly immersed in the 530 ml of water, as shown in the second photo.

The temp rise was from 7.1 C to 19.7 C (after stirring), a rise of 12.6 C.  So calorimetry shows:
Qinto-water = 4.19 * 430g *12.6C = 28.0 kJ.  
Efficiency = 28/36 = 0.78 .
Which is consistent with the control run.  Nothing to write home about yet!

I'm a little surprised that I'm not closer to unity with the efficiency, since the resistive heat should go into the water; but I will use a styrofoam container in the near future.  The home-lab room temp is about 52F.

Comments welcomed!
Especially, Nerzh Dishual – results from your runs would be most welcomed!!!  Both your control runs and your runs with the Davey device sent to you by Prof. Savic (at my request) are interesting and worth sharing!  Tell about the efficiencies you're getting with your "electric kettle" (commercially purchased), would you?  

Still having fun,
Steve
« Last Edit: 2012-02-22, 02:47:48 by PhysicsProf »
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #1 on: 2012-02-16, 22:48:58 »
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    Nerzh -- inspired by your electric kettle results (which I hope we'll see here), I went ahead and purchased a couple of these electric kettles from Amazon (free shipping!! to my little rural town).   Photo shows the inside of one of them.

    Also, I want to see whether these "off-the-shelf" units provide efficiency n = 1 approximately.
Further!  the container can be used to house experimental devices, and I can put the SAME Watt-hours into the same container with the "built in heater" and compare rather directly with the heating by the DUT... 

Lots of fun!   
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #2 on: 2012-02-18, 22:21:12 »
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  Hopefully my electric kettles will come Monday so those tests can proceed.

  I want to thank Jean-Yves (Nerzh) for doing experiments in parallel on his electric kettle in France -- and especially for his patience in trying to get the "Davey device" sent to him by Prof. Savic, working.  So far the efficiency of Prof Savic's DUT is about unity or less, nothing like was implied when I purchased the device!

 But Jean-Yves continues to try to get it working, over the last several weeks, and I appreciate his efforts.  I'm going to attach a photo or two, and you can see that the device which was sent is corroded far from pristine.  Maybe it worked in the past?  It looks like it has been used a lot, but that is the DUT that was sent. 

  I should also note that both of us have had some difficulty communicating with Prof Savic, and some of this can be ascribed to the difficulty translating from the Serbian. 

  If you have read the thread at EF, you know that DaemonBart made progress on this "Serbian sonic boiler" aka the "Davey Device".  I'm still hoping he will share more of his results, to benefit mankind!

On that note, I just learned that a dear friend of mine (Yeah Samaka) from Mali (Africa) is now running for President of Mali!  He wants to benefit the families in his country, many of whom are destitute.  The attached photo shows Yeah and me (I'm the white guy ;) )  with the Solar Funnel Cooker I developed for families in third-world countries about TWELVE YEARS AGO.  The photo was taken about 6-7 years ago.  And now here is my friend running for president of Mali! 

Let me assure you -- HE and the folks in Mali will be very interested in Freedom Energy.  And "Hurry up" I hear them say!  For example, many dental and medical procedures we take for granted depend on electricity...
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #3 on: 2012-02-19, 01:00:35 »
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Hi People,

All my results are here (these are not secret folders but not too public also):

1) http://freenrg.info/4SJ/
In this folder, the file "Serbian_Translation.html" is just showing that I could be able to catch some smattering of the Serbian language.
About the .mpx vids: no measurement here. The mp4 files are too huge. The mp2 file is more manageable but it is just for the fun.

2) http://freenrg.info/4SJ2/
In this folder, the file "UnAnswered_Questions.pdf" will show that I'm often in the dark.

3) http://jeanyves.hervouet.free.fr/4ProfJ/
In this folder, the file "NRG_METERS_TESTS_V1.pdf" is not finished.

4) http://jeanyves.hervouet.free.fr/Za_Prof_Savic/
I beg to differ with Prof. Savic about frequencies measurements. Hence these files.
Without our exchanged e-mails, these files would not be of too much help.
In a nutshell #1: Prof Savic is telling me (as far as I can catch it) that:
The frequency of the "cup" (pehara) is 400 Hz
The frequency of the "ball"(lopta) is about 1000 hz.

I strongly disagree with him. To me:
The frequency of the "cup" (pehara) is about 1600 Hz
The frequency of the "ball" (lopta) is about 2200 or 5000 Hz depending upon this ball is 'alone' or 'embedded 'in the device.

>>> In a nutshell #2: all my (poor?) measurements do not show any obvious "OU".

Of course: all remarks, questions, criticisms are requested.

Very Best,
Jean-Yves (Nerzh)





"
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #4 on: 2012-02-20, 23:09:18 »
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... .-.. .. -.. . .-.
Jean-Yves, are you sure we're not in 1/4 wavelength territory ?
400Hz to 1600Hz - you are running at 4x cycle to Prof Savic's measurements....forgive my ignorance regarding the topic up til recently, but the figures screamed at me a resonance condition mismatch, similar to radio wave propagation.
If the true 'full wave' figure for the second section were 4000Hz, did that cycle rate produce nothing of interest ? and could that mismatch with nothing to show be because of  a need to retune, based on the evident wear of the device ?

Again, please do forgive my ignorance, but can tuning be employed by using a copper coil within the cup and/or ball ?
By using a system partially related to the methods that Dr. Stiffler uses in his SEC circuits, the thought occurs that mismatches could be tuned out, resonance returned, by varying the cross induction properties of the device parts.


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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #5 on: 2012-02-21, 16:53:24 »
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Good questions, Mark -- I'll let Jean respond as he has time.

Earlier I talked about measuring input and output energy for Davey-type devices.  I'd like to revisit this -- how can we be CERTAIN that the energy meter plugged into the mains truly measures the total energy delivered to the device as input energy?  

Quote
Earlier post:  Mains power monitored by two “kill-a-watt” meters; one measures the energy consumed in kW-hrs, and the other the power being consumed during the run.   A stop-watch is used to keep track of the time required for the kW-hr monitor to go from zero to 0.01 kW-h (=36000 J).  That is the sensitivity of this meter; but I have another on order that will go to 0.001 kW-h (3600J).
 
The control water heater, a simple resistive coil (see photo) is rated at 300 W and runs at 301-303 W, and requires 1m58 to 1m59 seconds to use 0.01 kW-hr; which is all consistent, so the meters check out and agree.
...
[/quote]

One way to double-check the input energy measurement would be to run from a LARGE cap or capacitor bank, running an inverter if AC is needed.  (Pulsed DC might work...)  
Then the input energy can be determined in a straightforward way,
Einput = 1/2 C (Vfinal^2 - Vinitial^2)

Comments on this concern would be appreciated.
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #6 on: 2012-02-21, 21:30:13 »
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Steve
The control run with the Resistance heater should set the mark for the boiler.
It has been found that these kilowatt meters are remarkably accurate when compared to some very expensive commercial meters.


Chet
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #7 on: 2012-02-22, 02:29:03 »
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Quote from: ramset on 2012-02-21, 21:30:13
Steve
The control run with the Resistance heater should set the mark for the boiler.
It has been found that these kilowatt meters are remarkably accurate when compared to some very expensive commercial meters.


Chet

Thanks, Chet -- and along those lines as mentioned also in post #1,  I've received the electric kettles I ordered and I've done more control experiments.  Also received a new K-type thermocouple thermometer and another digital cooking thermometer that seems quite accurate -- compares well to the thermocouple thermometer.  And I solved a mystery noted in post #1; I wrote:

Quote
I'm a little surprised that I'm not closer to unity with the efficiency, since the resistive heat should go into the water;

I was getting efficiencies around 74-77% in those controls, today 95-98%!  I found that (to my surprise), the Fluke thermocouple thermometer used in post #1 was way off, compared to the two new thermometers described.  Again today the Fluke gave efficiencies around 75%, while the new K-type thermocouple thermometer and digital cooking thermometer gave good agreement and efficiencies in the electric kettles around 95-98%.    This is now believable to me, given that the heat from the resistor coils should go directly into the water, and I wish to emphasize the following I've learned from these experiments:

1.  Have redundant (preferably at least 3) temperature-probes, to check against each other to make sure there is not a problem in temperature measurements (as I found with the old Fluke K-type that I had borrowed).

2.  I also use two energy-monitoring meters as described in post #1, and I've ordered one more.  Again, its important to check these by redundant measuring devices.

3.  The water needs to be stirred vigorously before taking temp measurements.  Even so, it seems wise to have the temp-probes in different locations, and to compare results obtained with the two probes.

4.  A "standard" electric kettle makes a convenient control and gives efficiency near unity.  Thanks to Nerzh for this idea.

5.  Record data and questions in a bound log-book (I'm doing that).

6.  Measure water volume using a graduated cylinder -- I have a 500 ml graduated cylinder I bought last week.  I found that the electric kettle markings are not completely accurate, when I filled each kettle with 2 times 500 ml from the graduated cylinder.  

You might be interested in some data from today's control runs.  I'll provide these in my next post, so I can post the control-data also at EF.
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #8 on: 2012-02-22, 02:39:31 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Just to ensure I'm on the same page here Steve, is this initial testing being done to see if a quantity of water brought to boil (or some target temperature) uses less energy (kw-h) in the Davey device compared to a standard electric kettle?

Am I close?

.99

Quote
Answer by PhysicsProf (oops -- I meant to put into a separate post, thought I had done so!)
Basically, yes, we can make such direct comparisons.  Also, we have a quantitative measure using these calorimetric methods to determine efficiency for any given device.

  Thanks to .99 and Peterae for allowing us this space as a "private forum"!  since you two as forum moderators may read our posts, I ask that you respect the privacy of this forum area (I'm confident you will do so), and I for one welcome your comments here!
« Last Edit: 2012-02-22, 04:58:31 by PhysicsProf »


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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #9 on: 2012-02-22, 03:50:08 »
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  Today's data plus two photos are posted at EF (don't want to repeat here):

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8999-peter-daysh-davey-water-heater-query-60.html#post181079
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #10 on: 2012-02-22, 05:50:56 »
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  Having tested out two good thermometers and two vessels with built in heaters, and two input-energy meters, I decided to go ahead with a test of my Davey-type device, shown in the attached photos.  Built a few weeks ago... but I was put off by the low efficiency based on the Fluke meter (which turned out to be way off), until I got replacement meters as described above.

  Left -- you see the inside, showing the two bells, about 1 cm apart.  Each has a wire, the outer is neutral and the inside is hot-AC 120V.

  Assembly using nylon bolt and nuts and spacer.  Nylon nuts also hold the wires to the bells.  One hole on top for all this assembly...  Essentially no gap for steam to escape, which I'm beginning to regret because the device gives a boiling sound and hiss with about 5-10 seconds, even with fairly cold water.  Also, after the runs, I have to stir and bob the thing up and down, trying to get the hotter water between the bells to mix with the 1 liter in the vessel.

Also, the water is warm after stirring, but the outer bell (at least) is very hot to the touch, much hotter than the surrounding outside water -- I touched it to find out.  Also, sitting there, even after stirring with a plastic spoon, the temp on both temp probes rises for roughly 1.5 minutes.  

So is the water heating due to its resistance (ohmic heating of the water), or does the metal heat up more, then heat the water?  probably both.  But why does the metal get so hot?

I'm just going to tell you the temps I found and you can calculate if you want efficiencies -- with the caveat that the water may not have been thoroughly mixed despite my efforts, because of water "trapped" between the two bells.

Run 1:  K-type TES thermometer rose 10.0 C while the Taylor digital probe rose 12.6 C.  These temps after about 2 minutes from the end of the run, and after stirring to try to reach equilibrium but apparently I did not.  I don't know why the difference.  Eff appears to be greater than one;  I ran it again.

Run 2:  TES rose just 8 deg C (which would be eff less than 1) while the Taylor probe rose 15.5 deg C -- this after stirring!    Weird.  
All I can say is, I need to do more runs and measurements.  Tired tonight.

Also, I'm thinking about putting a small hole in the outer bell, to allow water to circulate better when the device is raised and lowered in the water and to let steam escape.  But this will change the natural tone of the bell a little...  

PS -- these are chemistry crucibles of two diff sizes, and both have a nice ring when held lightly and struck.  The tone of each is very roughly B-flat as I did this near the piano and found a rough match.  Thus, near 240 Hz -- in air.

 I have no idea what happens to the fundamental tones in water, good question.

Any thoughts???
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #11 on: 2012-02-22, 10:36:41 »
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... .-.. .. -.. . .-.
I'm sure that mbrownn might raise an eyebrow too, that stores are not packed to the rafters with kettles. They are woefully rare here in the USA !
In England, steam locomotives were often referred to as kettles.

After reading this page: http://www.totalizm.pl/boiler.htm but having not yet read all of the Energetic Forum thread, a few questions and thoughts arise of hopeful use.
Luckily my 'mistake' purchase of a 1980's Wilcom T296 20Hz to 20kHz generator could prove to be VERY useful. the old girl can sweep pure tones over user set ranges, over whatever timeframe is wished.
Am I right in thinking that at a certain frequency, a metal bell shape will audibly resonate ? In which case, tuning to harmonics of 60Hz should be possible (will have to check that we are on 60Hz not 50Hz). One may imagine that a PC soundcard would do the same job to detect the state of tune of a bell.
Has anyone merely obtained 2 bicycle bells and tried them ? I might well take that route :)
To be tested, but, as water heats and becomes steam, the properties of the resonance will change (perhaps). At some point, a bell that is too 'flat' in tuning within water, may raise in resonant pitch, brighten, due to the changing state of the water. If both bells simultaneously brighten at the exact boiling point of water, then can we imagine a superheating of that steam ? My theory, is that the bubbles which we are all familiar with during the 90-100C transition to steam may individually 'ring the bell' and individually become supercharged by the electrical flow.

Heck, I dunno, more reading and some bell finding required :)


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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #12 on: 2012-02-22, 12:31:39 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Steve,

Even with your best efforts, you may be getting air trapped within the bells, and this you probably don't want. I think one or two small holes in the top of each should resolve that problem.

.99


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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #13 on: 2012-02-22, 16:42:24 »
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Quote from: Slider2732 on 2012-02-22, 10:36:41
I'm sure that mbrownn might raise an eyebrow too, that stores are not packed to the rafters with kettles. They are woefully rare here in the USA !
In England, steam locomotives were often referred to as kettles.

After reading this page: http://www.totalizm.pl/boiler.htm but having not yet read all of the Energetic Forum thread, a few questions and thoughts arise of hopeful use.
Luckily my 'mistake' purchase of a 1980's Wilcom T296 20Hz to 20kHz generator could prove to be VERY useful. the old girl can sweep pure tones over user set ranges, over whatever timeframe is wished.
Am I right in thinking that at a certain frequency, a metal bell shape will audibly resonate ? In which case, tuning to harmonics of 60Hz should be possible (will have to check that we are on 60Hz not 50Hz). One may imagine that a PC soundcard would do the same job to detect the state of tune of a bell.
Has anyone merely obtained 2 bicycle bells and tried them ? I might well take that route :) ...

Good points, Mark.  Say, how much POWER can that Wilcom signal generator put out?  a few hundred watts would be awesome!  and a tunable frequency generator with high power output is what we need alright...

If I recall correctly, Mr. Davey back 60 years ago started out using bicycle bells...   

Note that I'm keeping the outer bell neutral (ground) for safety reasons!

Thanks, .99, I will add a hole or two...  Yesterday I also bought some metal MESH which I might try for the outer "bell"...  This will allow water and bubbles to flow freely, but will not "ring" IMO like the bells do.

Attached is the CHEAP and GOOD Type-K thermometer I purchased for this expt -- recommend it if'n you want to jump into this project.  Also, the Kaloric electric kettle on Amazon was cheap.
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #14 on: 2012-02-23, 04:04:37 »
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  Today I experimented again with the 2-bell device discussed yesterday -- many more careful measurements.
I found that the holes already in the bells allowed water to go in and out fairly rapidly -- one could hear the sound of air moving as the bells were immersed or lifted from the water.  Also, before measuring the water temps today, I always LIFTED the bells OUT of the water so that the water INSIDE them would join the water in the vessel -- then I further stirred this water... and then took temp measurements.

Today the results were completely consistent with those obtained with the control measurement.  To save time, will re-post here most of what I posted at EF just now:
________________

Thank you, quantumuppercut:

Quote from: quantumuppercut;181182
Nice work professor,

I like your approach, slow but solid.  Suppose we just jump to the bad fluke and depends on those data which gives 76%, it would be unfair.  What even worse is if that bad reading was 97%. lol

This is an example how the community can gain reputation from mainstream, succeed or not.

Well said.

  Today I did some testing with a build I did using 2 "bells", chemistry crucibles with a hole drilled in the each base, joined together at the bases with a nylon bolt + nylon nuts and spacer.  See photo on the right.  The distance between bells is approx. 1 cm, OD of the outer bell is 6 cm.   The pitch of each bell when struck is approx. B-flat (compared with the tune on my piano), roughly 240 Hz.  The mains provided 120 V and the input power was measured by two "kill-a-watt" meters in series -- approx. 1200 W during operation in water.

I ran with the bells until the energy meter registered 0.01 kW-hr (= 36,000 J) input energy, then I took temp. measurements.

For the control -- described also above -- I used the built-in coil of the electric kettle, shown in the photo on the left.

The water volume was measured at 1222 ml using a graduated cylinder.

  I observed temp rise of 7.0 deg C for 36kJ input electrical energy; so we find:

Qinto-water = 4.186 * 1222g *7.0C = 35.8 kJ.
Efficiency = 35.8/36.0 = 99%.

Consistent with unity... can't get much closer.  Control run with the SAME water, using the built-in resistive coils in the Kaloric vessel, gave the same result...

Overall, to be expected -- but I sure would like to try a WORKING Davey device!   :wall:    I'm still trying...
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #15 on: 2012-02-23, 10:59:14 »
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... .-.. .. -.. . .-.
The Wilcom has a built in speaker and output is only 1 watt or something fully cranked. However, that doesn't stop me feeding it to, erm, whatever's not been taken apart yet :)
It's got audio outs and all should be quite simple to hook up.

Thanks for all these readings - they'll most definitely help when joining in on this project.
Congratulations on reaching that 99% figure ! totally different method and yet that sort of efficiency, it's nothing to sneeze at  O0

With not being a fan of old mucky mains electricity, considering it dangerous and outdated...am planning a route which may or may not do anything. HV will be created by a flyback and variable pulse width/ duty cycle circuit (555 type but using a 74 series chip). The HV will be in resonance with a fundamental of the frequency of the bells to be trialed. The theory goes that it's not the amperage doing the boiling work, it's the frequency of the water molecule vibrations.
In such a way, these systems 'should' be able to make water boil using far less input power.
Also delivering the bonus side effect of my wife's eyebrows lowering to their normal height.

I'm in daily search of abandoned bicycles...not rare around here and there's part of one in our backyard, which I took the rubberized handles off to fix an arcade machine.

Here's a sort of pic of the Wilcom, just to see her vintage. I was running wireless energy tests with a Dr. Stiffler SEC replication at the time and that project was what a signal generator was intended for.


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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #16 on: 2012-02-26, 23:41:06 »
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Hi People,
Very sorry, I did not take the time to read this thread. :-X
I just sent all my 'results' (or absence thereof) to Prof Jones only.
This ain't exchanging (and polite). I have just figured it out right now.
I must be kinda schizo sometimes. :P
You know what? Prof Jones is just an 'inverted dictator'...

I will soon copy and past all my previous related (Very) Savic's Sonic Boiler ((V)SSB) emails to Prof Jones on an .html page. I will also do my best to answer the questions I was asked.
-----------------
My last 'adventure' with the (V)SSB:

This afternoon, during a new experiment, this long plastic rod began to melt! (pictures to come).
Fortunately the upper wire was still in fuzzy contact with the "cup". I could see some nice sparks! God forbid, I continued up to 5 minutes.

Unfortunately, my COP is discouraging. Yes, one can argue that it was obtained with a near broken device.

I used 600 grams (Scale) of water and 75 wh (NRG meter). My estimation is that 25 Wh was used to rise the upper water layer up to 100° and (75-25 = 50 wh) was consumed for the evaporation of the said water.

After having read my coming .html page you will see why, IMO,  "estimation" is the only way  to
approximate this SSB  COP.

A quick calculation, *after* the experiment shown that my estimation was not too bad.
Actually, as far as I caught it (AFAICI), the amp. consumption, during the evaporating stage
(5 minutes), was stable (2.4/5) amps.
Now: 230 volts * 2.5 * 5 * 60 /3600 =/= 48 wh (cosine phi = 1 (AFAICI too)).

With this 48/50 Wh I was able to evaporate 58 grams of water.
Now, you need 2261 joules to evaporate one gram of water.
= 2261/3600 = 0.628 Wh to evaporate one gram of water.
= 0.628/0628 = 1 Wh to evaporate 1/0.628 =/= 1.6 grams of water.

So, with, saying 49 Wh, I should have been able to evaporate 49* 1.6 =/= 78 grams of water.
It was not the case. COP =/= 58/78 = 0.74....:((
Or, Is it just the inverse???
-----------------
You know what?
I'm very pleased to have un purposely broken this device. Now, I feel more free.
I have just ordered 2 (20 cm) 5 mm diameter screwed nylon rods and adjusted nuts.
So, I soon will be able to repear (and improve?) the SSB.
Nylon is more stiff that this shabby cheap plastic (5.5 mm diameter) screwed rod.

Sorry, but 5.5 mm diameter is the kind of 'trick' that impedes an accurate replication.
Actually 5.5 mm is a very rare diameter. But, I can deal with 0.5 mm.

I will also remove these ugly rubber washers and replace them with nylon nuts and washers.
This will allow a more easy and accurate tuning of the gap, and will avoid to 'damp' the sound(s)
(should this be needed???).

More to come and very Best,
Jean
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #17 on: 2012-02-27, 00:15:51 »
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  Thanks, Jean (Nerzh), for the update ...   I've appreciated your work on this, and glad to hear that you will be replacing the old plastic bolt and rubber washers due to the "experience" you had...   You might show the photo you showed me of the washer that was split/ruined -- as the device came to you (from Serbia).

  Yes, hopefully with re-newed parts, Prof Savic's device may function better!  Please keep us posted. 

"inverted dictator"?  you mean, standing on my head??  lol.   C.C
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #18 on: 2012-02-27, 03:15:01 »
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@Prof Jones,

By "'Inverted' Dictator" I just meant: a person that does not impose/dictate his conditions.
Sorry for my English.  :-\
I should have said:  inversed/upside down/contrary/antithetical/opposed/counter/negative

Why do I say that?
Just because you kept suggesting me to post on this forum.
Just because these suggestions were so gentle and subtle that I did not catch your messages!

Actually "Inverted" has another meaning. LOL.  :-\ :-[ :)
I did not mean "perverse despot" but just the opposite  ;D
Beware the language barrier!
-----------------------
Ok , I will show the pictures.
Actually I, now,  will post all my (shabby- for the moment?)  results  here.

Very Best,
Jean
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #19 on: 2012-02-27, 03:24:23 »
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Hi 'OU' blokes,

Why, IMO, "estimation" is the only way to approximate the (Very) Savic's Sonic Boiler (V)SSB COP?

Because:
The SSB is only heating up to 100° (Celsius) a thin upper water layer above his "ball".
So, you can not use any regular NRG calculations.

According to Prof. Savic his (Bl')SSB is only 'OU' while evaporating water.

One of his (Google-translated) email:
"Heat water to 100 degrees Celsius and then begin to measure the vapor
for 5 minutes and measure the power consumption for 5 minutes. 
This is a true COP sonic boiler"

So, you just(?) have to put it in boiling water before monitoring any Energy Input.

Unfortunately, putting this SSB in a kettle, for example, until the water is boiling
before unplugging the kettle and connecting this SSB to the grid and monitoring any NRG input
just blown up my main grid fuse (faster than light, or so, just a guesstimate).
My personal nice "fuse box" did not react. Same for the "room(s) fuse".

Actually, I made one experiment: if you put this (passive) SSB in  a kettle and
monitor the resistance between his 2 wires you will see that this resistance
will drop to 00.00 ohm (according to my meter).

Please see my vids on:
http://www.freenrg.info/4SJ/

So, what can I do?
The only way that the SSB resistance is not zero is when this SSB have boiled the water by itself.

Why?
Because: this water resistance between the "cup" and the "ball" of the (f'-Bl')SSB is zero *only*
when the water is boiling *and* when the ($*3)SSB is "passive".
*But* when this water temperature increasing is made by an active (a running) SSB it is not
the same picture at all!

In fact, this SB creates a tiny ("pulsating") vacuum?/gas(hho)? layer between the "cup" and the "ball".
So, there is a resistance between the two parts of the device.

So, the deal is: boiling the water with the (f')SSB itself.
OK! No accurate NRG input measurement can be made.
Else: exploding you main grid meter?

In the next issue of this NerzhDishual's Epic SSB Magazine, I will tell you about frequencies measurements.

Very Best,
Jean
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #20 on: 2012-02-27, 04:02:39 »
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  lol-- I appreciate you explanation of "inverted" in this case, Jean, and your sense of humor!

Yes, I see that you have run into problems when trying to BOIL water with the SSB.  I have done a number of exercises just raising the temp of water reported above, but not boiling yet.  I will undertake boiling soon (but tomorrow I must travel, so I think Tuesday)...  I must say it is strange that you blew the "main grid fuse" when boiling using the SSB.  

Thank you for posting results, and for keeping at this SSB!  I wonder when you replace the bad parts with nylon parts, if it will function better.  Hoping so -- je l'espere bien.
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #21 on: 2012-02-27, 04:03:45 »
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... .-.. .. -.. . .-.
Nerzh -You had me laughing heartily with those posts...looking forward to more  O0

I would certainly recommend both damping and non-damping the device. My belief (having not even seen one of these LOL) is that the vacuum between the 2 balls is critical. But, not a true vacuum, not even a partial vacuum, instead it is the sonic hyper-drive resonance area, which only looks like a vacuum !
It's where the 'magic' happens, the superheating. Every time the water travels into that area it is abducted by (aliens) the wall of resonance and instantly transformed into steam. Hence, it would appear to be devoid of water. The area may well pulsate, the eye seeing a harmonic of the operating frequency.
If Mr. Savic's boiler doesn't work like that then perhaps he should be abducted by aliens.

I see no reason why CERN shouldn't contact you for advice by the way, I believe a 'loose cable' was how TPTB bought off the faster than light DOUBLE experiment results  >:-)


---------------------------
ʎɐqǝ from pɹɐoqʎǝʞ a ʎnq ɹǝʌǝu
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #22 on: 2012-02-29, 06:11:10 »
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28 Feb 2012 -- I performed some experiments regarding BOILING, both in the control experiment (using an electric kettle and bringing a measured amount of water to boiling) and with my two-bell sonic boiler (2BSB).

CONTROL run was instructive.   Attached photos show the Kaloric electric kettle once again.  Note that the jug can be simply removed from the electric-power-supply-base.  This makes measuring the weight of the jug and jug+water (shown on the right) straightforward, with no cord to worry about.  The weight/mass scale can handle up to 5000 g, which is plenty for these experiments (so far).

Measuring the weight of the  jug+water, I was rather surprised at how much evaporation took place AFTER boiling had been reached, if the jug was left sitting with lid opened.  Tens of grams evaporated over a period of about a half hour, observed.
Also, water mass is lost during the warm up to near 100C also.  These are important effects, significant to the measurement of efficiency.  I can see how ERRORS could easily be made!  Water spitting out of the vessel (as water, not steam) is another potential problem causing measurement error.

Having observed the magnitude of these easy-to-make errors, I re-emphasize that any claims of ou need to be checked by an independent person or lab.  And a CONTROL absolutely MUST be run, the same way that the DUT run is performed.  

I found using the control that if I would first heat the water to near boiling with the lid closed, then weigh the vessel, then proceed with boiling -- then weigh again, the input electrical energy agreed with the output heat as determined from the mass evaporated:

Qevap = 2261 J/g * delta-mass  (the mass of the evaporated water)
  
As Nerzh showed, since 3600 J = 1 W-hr, then we can express this equation for Qevap in terms of W-hours:

Q evap = 2261J/g *1 W-hr/3600 J * delta-mass

            = 0.628 W-hr * delta-mass in grams.

For the control run, heating the water using the Kaloric electric kettle itself plugged into the energy meter, the mass just before the 2BSB run was 1991g and just after, 1947g, for a mass change of 44g.  So

Qevap      = 0.628 W-hr * delta-mass in grams = 0.628 * (1991g - 1947g) = 29.5 W-h (output energy).

The input electrical power I measured with a watt-hour meter, which I calibrated recently by measuring temperature rise in water and determining Q that way, see equation in an earlier post, as well as comparing with another brand of watt-hour meter for consistency.  The watt-hour meter that reads down to 0.1 W-hr is about 4% high, so that is a minor correction easy to make.

The input power was then measured as 29.8 W-hrs for the control, which is in very good agreement:
calculated efficiency is n = energy-out/energy-in = 29.5/29.8 = 99%.

I like this method, then I applied the same approach, weighing the water before and after and this time using the 2bellSB, and found:

Qevap      = 0.628 W-hr * delta-mass in grams = 0.628 * (1742g - 1700g) = 26.4 W-h (output energy).

The input energy from the calibrated energy meter 22.3 W-h, so there appears about 18% excess during boiling, using the 2-bell device I built.  I just don't know though...  Nerzh, do you have any boiling results yet??

Of course, I ran the experiment again, longer this time.  Unfortunately -- there as a bright flash and a circuit breaker was thrown.  I found that the data on the energy meter was lost...  I found the scar where one bell had managed to touch the other, no doubt under the force of steam pressure between the bells.  I can recover, but that's all for tonight... it's late here...

  

 
« Last Edit: 2012-02-29, 07:36:23 by PhysicsProf »
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #23 on: 2012-02-29, 06:18:39 »
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PS -- my dear wife took some video for me during the most recent 2BSB run this evening, so we could record the "hissing" sound the 2-bells make.  Got that pretty well, but it was too dark (late evening run) to see much.  The boiling was intense just before the two bells made contact, shorted out.  That flash we did NOT capture on video however (ran out of battery).
« Last Edit: 2012-02-29, 16:35:15 by PhysicsProf »
   
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Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #24 on: 2012-02-29, 23:26:24 »
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@Slider2732

Thanks a lot for your witty comments. Yes, I do agree with you!

The "vacuum" between the 2 balls (= the "cup" and the "ball") is critical. Actually, according to my last speculations, this "vacuum" seems to be the only thing that really matter.

As soon as I'm able to repear the SSB (with the nylon rod) I will first put This SSB upside down
(= "ball" up and "cup" down) in a water beaker just to try figuring out what is going on.

I decided to forget all what Prof. Savic said to me. I'm writing a pdf file about my new (freed mind) conjectures.

These just are hypothesis. So, I guess that I will not see any Black helicopters (stuffed with nasty Grey aliens)
in my area (for the moment).

More seriously: IMO, you are on the right track.

-------------------------
Quickly divulging my "findings":

The "ball" does not really "vibrate".
Please listen to: http://www.freenrg.info/4SJ/Ball.wav

The main freq of the cup is about 1600 hz.
1600/50 =/= 32.
http://www.freenrg.info/4SJ/Cup.wav

The only frequency that seems to be important is the frequency of the "cup".
The grid freq. (50 hz) would be  the freq. of the "hammer" that hits the cup.
This cup has his own freq that should (roughly?) match the grid freq.

Why roughly?
1) Just because the SSB's cup is "as-it" and seems not to have been "doctored" (filed for ex).
This cup is just from an old fashioned 2 bells alarm clock (see attached picture).

Now, If I were an  old-fashioned-alarm-clock-builder, I would use (approximate) 'natural' tones
(G6 = 1568 Hz) to wake up people.

2) Just because this SSB is claiming a 'moderate' COP (about 3). So it just no needs to be too
accurately tuned (frequency wise). BTW: this would suggest that the Q-factor is not so huge.

If you have been good I will let you hear my last musical improvisation using some of these
alarm clock cups.   Obviously, natural tones are used.

Kidding appart: the ball is also from these 2 bells old alarm clock.
Some cold welding mastic (see attached picture) has been used to glue these 2 bells.
------------------------------------
The other thing to consider is the distance between the cup and the ball.
This distance seems to be critical. More to come about this.

========================================

@Prof. Jones

No, I have not any more boiling result yet, as this ($"#)SSB is out of order (melted rod).
You can bet I will make these experiments  ASAP...

Quote
"Also, water mass is lost during the warm up to near 100C also.
These are important effects, significant to the measurement of efficiency. 
I can see how ERRORS could easily be made!  Water spitting out of the vessel
(as water, not steam) is another potential problem causing measurement error."

I also do agree with that! You're preaching to the choir.  :)

Anyway, even with a moderate cop (3), all these measurements errors will be of much less importance.
Would they not?

--------------------------------------
At present, I have to confine myself to presumptions and (almost) 'fuzzy' experiments.
With the help of this very forum members we should succeed.

Very Best,
Jean
   
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