Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion.

Author Topic: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. (Read 691 times)

Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #75 on: 2012-03-15, 21:06:07 »

Newbie

Posts: 34

Hey guys. I have read over many many posts now concerning this device, Lots of great info, lots of great experimentation and exploration. My question is.....What is the mechanism for gain!!! I do not see a working theory yet on how this can hit resonance at mains freq, and even if it could, how does this translate into an energy gain? I have many ideas on where to go, but would like to hear why people think this behaves the way it does?

PhysicsProf

Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #76 on: 2012-03-16, 04:01:17 »

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My guiding theoretical idea is a simple one -- steam formation /bubbling causes the bells to "ring" at their natural frequencies. But why that should 'pull in' what I should like to call "Tesla energy", I do not know.

I think Jean "the musician" may have a theory, Jean?

To me, and a solid experimental result is worth a dozen theoretical speculations... BUT sometimes a theoretical model can be a GREAT help to guide to better experiments!

PS -- still traveling, computer contact very limited (when I find time AND local wifi).

NerzhDishual

Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #77 on: 2012-03-21, 00:49:15 »

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Posts: 166

Hi Prof Jones and People,

No theory. I wish I had one. Perhaps have I some clues?

I'm wondering whether this is not just a matter of mechanical resonance and standing waves?
---------------------
Actually, with mechanical resonance Tesla could perform amazing things. Could he not?
For ex:
Tesla's oscillator: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla%27s_oscillator
Nikola Tesla's Earthquake Machine: http://www.excludedmiddle.com/earthquake.htm

Mainstream Science does not consider resonance as 'OU'. My (poor?) common sense does not agree.

-------------------------
In fact, we have at least 2 frequencies.
The freq of the grid - the "prime mover"?- (60 Hz for USA and 50 Hz for Europe, for ex.)
The main freq of one cup.
In the Savic's Sonic Boiler (SSB) the ball does not really vibrate and seems to act as a kinda "wall". IMO. In the Prof. Jones's Sonic Boiler (PJSB) we have a second "cup" that is really vibrating also.

My take is that the main freq(s) of the cup(s) should be integer multiples of of the grid freqs.
50: 100, 150, 200, 250, 300 ...500 ...
60: 120, 180, 240, 300, 360 ...600 ...

Now, perhaps, some Intermodulations and cross-modulations would do the "mechanical resonance" job?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodulation
http://users.tpg.com.au/users/ldbutler/Intermodulation.htm
The difference between intermodulation and cross-modulation
http://www.edaboard.com/thread23049.html

Now, have the main freq(s) of the cup(s) to precisely match the previous numbers?
I dunno. Perhaps one secret is that inter/cross modulations could give some low earth freq (about 7 Hz). In that case, and without strong theory or fortunate luck ('mojo') huge COPs would be out of reach???
--------------------
About standing wave and according to what Prof Savic could had scarcely and 'cryptly' disclosed: I might have found a relation between the "gaps" between the 2 part/electrodes of a sonic boiler.

In some pictures of his "empty beer can sonic boiler", prof Savic gave very accurate mysterious gaps: 2.1 mm and 2.52 mm. BTW, he also gave a gap of 1.725 mm

Should come from any other calculation.

If the speed of sound in boiling water is 1512 m/s
According that:
Lambda = V / F
Lambda (meters) = wavelength
V = speed (meters/ seconds)
F = frequency (Hz).

Should you consider 1/4 wavelength.

Lambda/4 = (1512/(60 * 300)) /4 = 0.0210 m = 2.10 mm
Lambda/4 = (1512/(50 * 300)) /4 = 0.0252 m = 2.52 mm

Multiplying freqs does not make sense to me.
BTW: 2.10 mm gap was given for Europe (50 Hz) and 2.52 was given for USA (60 Hz).

Pictures from Prof Savic are here:
http://jeanyves.hervouet.free.fr/NDS/Speculations.html

No comment = I will shut my Big F' Bl' Froggy French Critical Nasty Derisive Mouth.

------------------
Now, People, please, make your own theory...

The principles, most of time, are very simple. The results can, of course, be very very complicated.
For example: you can design a black and white table plotter 2D software with just 3 basic instructions.
- Pen Up
- Pen Down
- GoTo X,Y

Very Best,
Jean

NerzhDishual

Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #78 on: 2012-03-21, 04:35:18 »

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Posts: 166

Hello Chaps,

In the the very famous(?) "Marché Saint Martin" of Brest/Brittany/France
I came across a very nice INOX 0.5 liter Thermos bottle. One Euro.

The Savic's Sonic Boiler (SSB) just perfectly fit in it.
So, I will be able to perform some new measurements.

But, please, do not hold your breath!
It sounds like (pun intended) that the SSB and me are not friends.
Anyway, I definitely not give up and will try some SB of my own.

This will be absolutely open source, of course.

Very Best from Brest,
Jean

PhysicsProf

Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #79 on: 2012-03-21, 21:39:25 »

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"Anyway, I definitely not give up and will try some SB of my own." -- HURRAY!

That is my feeling also, Jean.
And I agree that multiples of the basic (50 or 60 Hz) makes sense, along with differences, to make "beat frequencies."

PS -- my daughter went into the hospital, in labor, yesterday. So we changed some plans and came directly to her house yesterday.
My wife and I are taking care of her four children, but at least I'm settled for about 2 weeks, and have decent computer contact!
Also some experimental equipment.

PS 2 -- I was informed today that my colloquium talk at BYUniversity was recently canceled... and I was given the name of an administrator to contact when I asked why. Hmmm.... suppression? I will try to reach him soon.
'
The announcement from a web page of the university is attached fyi. Note that I was before INVITED to speak on alt-energy; now the talk has been canceled. Strange?

Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion.

DrJonesBYUColloq5Sep2012.jpg (95.89 kB, 558x479 - viewed 91 times.)

Slider2732

Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #80 on: 2012-03-22, 10:33:18 »

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Hero Member

Posts: 1602
... .-.. .. -.. . .-.

Could it be simply that the Uni has old fashioned views on energy ? One of those cases of it not being in the science books, so therefore is folly. Depends which corporations donate too, though I know nothing of finances in the USA for such places.
It's certainly a case in point though for a demonstration to be given, just to make the folks stop a second and wonder for longer.

About Moray. I was reading from several sources recently and his diodes popped up time after time. Most was just chatter, but a couple of times I read of his liking for Radium and other radioactive substances introduced to those diodes. Could emissions from the diodes have gone a long way to the performance within his device ?
I have always wondered too, is there ever a case where radioactive resonance is achieved ? I've no idea, but it seems logical that a particle emitting at a constant rate can rattle a containing chamber into a feedback loop condition. I would also imagine it to be something well known and that I just don't know the name of

Linking to the boilers though, and I will keep this brief. In aviation there is a system of lift that was developed by the Horten brothers in Nazi Germany. Their flying wing gliders used the principle and, so successfully, that Northrop engineers spent quite some time examining a WWII captured jet engine equipped Horten IX V3 (Garber facility at the Smithsonian being restored now) which proved valuable in the design of the B2.
Bell shaped lift is easy to picture. It's little to none at the edges of wings, increasing toward the mid section, in the shape of a 2 dimensional bell.
So, how does this relate to sonic boiling of water ?
Well, water molecules at the sides will have the least distance to travel, but will also have the least energy. They can't resonate very far on their own. But, they are in contact with the tuned bell, they have a frequency of vibration. What they can do, is push the next inward molecule by a small amount. The power of any push relates to the dimensions of the bell and the Watts being introduced. You can see, how a 'child on a swing' analogy can run, when the Wattage is sufficient to begin a large enough push of molecules toward the middle area of water. As the distance toward the middle decreases, the particles travelling to the middle will meet those coming from the other edge and resonate, in harmony, ramping the forces to the opposite sides.
All the while, the heated water is rising, into the rest of the bell shape.
As the diameter of the bell decreases, the intensity of the 'waves of energy' increases.
We have an OU possibility, based on resonance and also the reason for the bell shape.
The intensity is where we expect it to be, at the top of the bell, just as the lift of the Horten aircraft was centered on the nose.
That's one theory anyway

Perhaps the above is quite similar to Jean's theory...I just haven't the mental abilities to put those sorts of equations into print !

---------------------------

ʎɐqǝ from pɹɐoqʎǝʞ a ʎnq ɹǝʌǝu

NerzhDishual

Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #81 on: 2012-03-24, 00:01:09 »

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Posts: 166

Hi People,

@Prof. Jones: IMO, for the moment, Mainstream Science is very reluctant to admit any 'OU' (= COP >1) (over the definitive impossibility of 'Perpetual Motion' - Is not any atom in "perpetual" motion? )... Excepting COPs of heat pumps and fridges

But Times (They) Are (a-) Changin(g). No?
-----------------
@Slider2732
Thank you very very much for pointing out this German Invention. Food for thought. Peter D. Davey was an aircraft fighter pilot who discovered his device while observing anomalous heat in his cup shaped cockpit. This is the story.

Googling "Horten brothers" gives a lot of pages.
I'm not sure to understand you fully yet (= I'm sure to not understand you fully

) but I will try. Perhaps one or 2 sketchings could be hepfull?
Please, do not under estimate your mental abilities...

BTW: I have no theory....
Just few speculations and common sense ideas.
IMO, the "theory" is not so complicated.
More precisely: the "theory" could be complicated but the basic recipe should be simple (or is it just the opposite?)

I do not want to too (2-2) pontificate but:
Theory first = Hertzian waves.
Basic recipe = Ruhmkorff coil + Branly-Lodge "Coherer" = Very Old Radio.

Basic recipe first= Stream engine.
Theory after = Sadi Carnot.

So...
-----------------------
I have not been inactive.
As I often go to the Brest's Saint-Martin Market, I have purchased one more 1.5 liters Thermos
Bottle (10 Euros); a big Inox cup (one Euro); 3 nice Inox kinda "fruit dishes" (0.5 Euro each)
from which I can get 3 cups.

I should have more than 12 different cups, for the moment.
Pictures to come soon.

I have also ordered and received an accurate digital thermometer (GTH 175/PT).
For ex: http://www.erichsen.de/physical-measurement/handheld-instruments/digital-precision-pocket-thermometer-gth-175-pt/view?set_language=en

I wish I were a fitter and had a turning lathe.
I could purchase a small one. Unfortunately dealing with precision is over my fingers
and my mind.
----------------
Did I already tell you this (sorry for repeating myself)?:
I made a lot of random experiments with my own interpretations/replications? of the Peter Daysh Davey Boiler.
If my memory serves, my COPS were from 0.9 to 1.1 when just heating water.
I was not even aware that the 'magic' begins when you evaporate the said water.
Thanks to Prof Savic for pointing this out.
I was not even aware that you need 2261 (+-1?) Calories to evaporate one gram of water. Right?
I was not even aware that I was so dumb.
It is a Cosmic Rule = you just can judge your cleverness with you own discernment (or inversely, of course).

I stop here my delirium.

More ASAP and Very Best,
Jean

PhysicsProf

Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #82 on: 2012-03-24, 02:23:51 »

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Great to hear from you, Nerzh! always with worthwhile insights -- and sense of humor! You're certainly right regarding mainstream science...

Today, I got back into experiments on the Davey device. First the control using the immersion heater I brought with me -- in the same calorimeter as before, which I brought with me. See photo.

The result was consistent with what I got back in Utah --
Control: 29 g of water vaporized with 20 W-hours of heat put in. Efficiency for the control, approx. 94%.
All this is good.

I had 4 grandchildren watching, helping -- budding scientists!

AFter they went to bed, I pulled out the two-bell system I brought with me. It is a bit more dangerous than the immersion heater IMO, so I waited till they went to bed.

The 2-bell system I brought is not my best one, but performed well enough.
2-bell device: 36 g of water vaporized with 20 W-hours of heat put in. Efficiency for this device, approx. 120%.[/b]

I'm still happy to invite any/all to jump in -- the water is fine! I have brought various bells with me to try more builds as time permits out here. My daughter has the baby inside still... she came back home from the hospital for further "natural waiting" you see.

Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion.

ControlRun23March2012Md.jpg (108.7 kB, 832x643 - viewed 64 times.)

PhysicsProf	Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #83 on: 2012-03-29, 04:44:33 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3249	Still doing a lot of traveling... sorry I haven't posted much. However, yesterday before the trip, I put together another Davey-style sonic boiler. Hope to test it soon; watching the grand-children! « Last Edit: 2012-03-30, 20:46:39 by PhysicsProf »

NerzhDishual	Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #84 on: 2012-04-02, 06:14:42 »
Full Member Posts: 166	Definitely Off Topic. Just to add one message to the thread. Musics that could trigger emotions. Spanish: Yasmin Levy - La Alegria http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXUqioIc1yY French (Canadian): Zachary Richard - Jean Batailleur 2005 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EHur93dA_U Breton: Denez Prigent - An Hini A Garan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uBR6KpB8j8 Gwella soñjou a-berz Jean.

PhysicsProf

Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #85 on: 2012-04-02, 18:51:19 »

Group: Professor
Hero Member

Posts: 3249

I had a bad flu... ugh! just getting over it. And things getting busy here again -- Daughter is going into the hospital this evening, to be induced; so my dear wife and I have the grand-kids starting then. (Plus had some car trouble... water pump... what fun...)

Anyway, bottom line, I won't be on much here, for a while. Please feel free to post if you wish! or on the other forums.

Nerzh gave me a vid- link, that talked about back EMF. Very good, then the prof went on to talk about induction-heating. Basically, the plate is a transformer-primary, lots of windings, and the pan sitting on top is just ONE winding -- so gets a very high current. MAGNETIC pan, so skin depth of the heated area is shallow -- and HIGH resistance! clever.

Then I realized that the two - bell system I've described above will have an inductive heating component... and this may be quite important... back EMF and all that. The bells are attracted strongly by a perm-magnet -- I checked. Anyway, just a thought -- bye for now.
Steve

NerzhDishual

Re: Davey Sonic Boilers -- and Controls. Experimental results and discussion. « Reply #86 on: 2012-04-04, 00:21:02 »

Full Member

Posts: 166

@Prof. Jones,

Best wishes for your daughter

For avoiding the flu, personally, I ingest about 3 to 5 grams of natural C vitamin each day.

About the link, here it is:
Physics 12 June 3 U9L4 Back EMF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSb_-m6QVcc

About another musical link. Sorry . I can not help:
LAST OF THE MOHICANS - Royal Scots Dragoon Guards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR-csWS1bcM

Very Best,
Jean

« Last Edit: 2012-04-04, 02:03:48 by NerzhDishual »