Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it?

Author Topic: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? (Read 37574 times)

wings	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #50 on: 2012-03-05, 08:36:03 »
Full Member Posts: 118	on the balance add also 100 200 grams extra mass and repeat the experiment

exnihiloest	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #51 on: 2012-03-05, 10:14:11 »
Hero Member Posts: 1504	Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012-03-04, 16:35:31 What if I show you a situation where configuration at t is the same as t+1, though we still have a cause for change. I would say that the observed system is either not closed or closed but in a state of movement at constant speed or in a state of periodic oscillation.

GibbsHelmholtz

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #52 on: 2012-03-05, 14:05:48 »

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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-03-05, 10:14:11

I would say that the observed system is either not closed or closed but in a state of movement at constant speed or in a state of periodic oscillation.

not sure what you mean but I was saying imagine a disk turning another disk through gear coupling. If you take a picture at time t and at time t+1, they both are identical. We can argue that a source is powering one of the disk, but the source is only providing a torque/force just like gravity argument.

BEP

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #53 on: 2012-03-05, 20:40:43 »

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Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012-03-05, 14:05:48

not sure what you mean but I was saying imagine a disk turning another disk through gear coupling. If you take a picture at time t and at time t+1, they both are identical. We can argue that a source is powering one of the disk, but the source is only providing a torque/force just like gravity argument.

I don't see how they can be identical. If meshed in a gear-gear fashion they rotate opposite directions. If coupled by a belt/chain then any point on the belt/chain is changing positions.

Quote

I would say that the observed system is either not closed or closed but in a state of movement at constant speed or in a state of periodic oscillation.

I would say that the observed system is either not closed or closed but in a state of acceleration. Unless, we consider extra dimensions

GibbsHelmholtz

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #54 on: 2012-03-05, 22:10:29 »

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Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012-03-05, 20:40:43

I don't see how they can be identical. If meshed in a gear-gear fashion they rotate opposite directions. If coupled by a belt/chain then any point on the belt/chain is changing positions.

I would say that the observed system is either not closed or closed but in a state of acceleration. Unless, we consider extra dimensions

I think the basis of the argument is that if a wheel is under constant motion, t and t+1 is the same. Ex argues that even the wheel is out of balance, but as long as t and t+1 is the same, there is no cause of motion.

If friction is presents, it can take place for acceleration.

MileHigh

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #55 on: 2012-03-06, 00:01:41 »

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Harvey:

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Taking N3 (Newton's Third Law) into account - can you identify the reaction to the falling spherical magnet? Is it opposite?

Yes, it's the Earth falling towards the magnet. I 'learned' that the hard way. It's something so obvious that you can forget it. It's also not relevant. Worry about everybody in China jumping up and down at the same time if you must.

For the experiment, the gravitational potential energy relative to a fixed datum point is the only thing that you need be concerned with.

MileHigh

Harvey

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #56 on: 2012-03-06, 00:27:50 »

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Quote from: MileHigh on 2012-03-06, 00:01:41

Harvey:

Yes, it's the Earth falling towards the magnet. I 'learned' that the hard way. It's something so obvious that you can forget it. It's also not relevant. Worry about everybody in China jumping up and down at the same time if you must.

For the experiment, the gravitational potential energy relative to a fixed datum point is the only thing that you need be concerned with.

MileHigh

Correct.

Since the fall is perfectly balanced by the Earth's attraction, the Lenz effect must be an entirely separate action demanding its own equal and opposite reaction.

The Lenz effect is caused by the differential motion of the sphere to the conductive tube and seeks to stop that motion.

What is the reaction?

EMdevices

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #57 on: 2012-03-06, 02:58:04 »

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There is another impressive video similar to the one discussed here, except it is a smaller device with embeded magnets in the rim, and the "activating" magnet is brought close to the rim and makes the disk spin very fast. At the end of the presentation, the guy dissasembles the device so we can see that nothing is hiden. Some speculate that he has a hiden rotating magnetic field under the table, because obviously this thing is OU, but these types of devices are not OU.

Just because something spins does not mean energy is dissipated in any significant quantities, (maybe just a bit of energy due to air friction and bearings). The act of bringing a magnet close to a magnetic wheel, against the wheel's magnetic field, produces a force that pushes the approching magnet and so the operator's hand INJECTS energy into the system as he opposes this force that pushes his hand away while holding the magnet. This injected energy then manifests itself as rotational kinetic energy, so all is fine, no laws of physics violated. However, what is interesting to contemplate is how the mag fields interact to convert this injected potential energy into rotation.

EM

BEP

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #58 on: 2012-03-06, 03:04:33 »

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Quote from: Harvey on 2012-03-06, 00:27:50

Correct.

Since the fall is perfectly balanced by the Earth's attraction, the Lenz effect must be an entirely separate action demanding its own equal and opposite reaction.

The Lenz effect is caused by the differential motion of the sphere to the conductive tube and seeks to stop that motion.

What is the reaction?

Since this sphere isn't a magnet I think some would say the fall of the sphere wouldn't drive anything. However, magnet or not, it is an extension of the bar magnet since it is under attraction.

Also, the sphere is changing the dynamics of the magnetic field every time it moves from below the magnet's center-line to the center-line and above the center-line and back.

I think the action of the ball is driving the wheel. There would be no point in adding hidden fishing line and no need.

Is it free energy? No, I'm sure it isn't, but it is interesting and the possibly complex eddy currents involved make it more interesting.

MileHigh

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #59 on: 2012-03-06, 08:12:16 »

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Well I had a eureka moment and I have a new and much better explanation for how this was faked.

It's being done with compressed air. There is an airline running up through a hole in the table top. One or two jets of compressed air are blown into the troughs on either side of the outer part of the wheel. That's why the wheel is so low to the base, so you can't see the angled air holes to direct the compressed air to make the wheel turn.

So they just doctor up the audio track which is a trivial thing to do.

The funny thing is that they are practically trying to giveaway the answer to everybody. It just goes to show how easily we can be swayed by misdirection, even our own unconscious self-imposed misdirection. Even when the clues are in our face.

At 0:58 in the clip you hear a short burst or compressed air. That's not there by accident, it's there on purpose. They want to tell you how it's being done, they really do.

MileHigh

ArtistGuy	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #60 on: 2012-03-06, 10:22:31 »
Jr. Member Posts: 59	Quote from: MileHigh on 2012-03-06, 08:12:16 At 0:58 in the clip you hear a short burst or compressed air. MileHigh I do airbrush, and agree that sure sounds like one popping the valve all the way open briefly, about 40-60 psi. But is it under the table, or just in the background...? rc

poynt99

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #61 on: 2012-03-06, 13:23:59 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...

I think it is unlikely that is a burst of air. If it was, it is awfully close to the camera judging by the sound the wheel makes in comparison.

Also, the guy turns the base of the wheel around a few times prior to the demo. Indeed the centre does not deviate from its origin, but I find it difficult to believe it would be done with air. There is no air sound that corresponds with the wheel running.

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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

wattsup

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #62 on: 2012-03-06, 15:30:16 »

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@All

The ball is like any other ball. It has no axis point unless two forces are exerted upon it. In this case the forces are gravity and magnetism. Gravity is pulling the ball down, magnetism is keeping the ball up. It is only when the distance of the magnet to ball is just right that the wheel will turn because too far away and gravity wins and too close the magnet wins. At the perfect distance, both forces have both the time (wheel slope) and direction to act on the ball and make the wheel turn.

When the ball falls it follows the direction and cadence of the turning of the counterclockwise wheel. As soon as it gets far enough the magnet drags it back up against the CCW wheel that is already giving the ball a turning direction (axis) so it follows that direction and turns going back higher again. The ball turns CCW and the wheel turns CCW.

In slow motion (hic,hic) I noticed that every time two (1 per side) of the eight (4 per side) wheel support bars are at the magnet, the ball drops slightly probably due to the added bar mass dissipating some of the magnets strength at that point in time.

Nothing in this looks fake or tricked. Needless to say this would not work in zero gravity.

I wonder, if the wheel was simply supported by a ball bearing base so the wheel has no axle or support bars, would it still turn as it does since I think those support bars may be the cause of the magnet/gravity oscillations that make the wheel turn.

Man could it be so simple?

wattsup

Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it?

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Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it?

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Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it?

ball-will-it-turn1.jpg (80.93 kB, 820x831 - viewed 536 times.)

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http://etherimpress.com

BEP

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #63 on: 2012-03-06, 18:10:45 »

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Quote from: wattsup on 2012-03-06, 15:30:16

I wonder, if the wheel was simply supported by a ball bearing base so the wheel has no axle or support bars, would it still turn as it does since I think those support bars may be the cause of the magnet/gravity oscillations that make the wheel turn.

Man could it be so simple?

I wonder if the contraption would turn if he turns the magnet around.

Simple? Judging by the comments, I would say not.

BEP	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #64 on: 2012-03-06, 21:33:54 »
Hero Member Posts: 2205	I just had some time to watch the video under high zoom. Of course, the ball is spinning. Is this spinning an action or a reaction? The latter makes sense but who knows? Not me

MileHigh

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #65 on: 2012-03-06, 23:45:52 »

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Poynt:

For the burst of air, it's just an audio sample, it could have come from anywhere. It's just a cue, a big hint to try to tell the audience what they are doing. Likewise, you just have to record what the wheel and ball sound like while the magnet is in place and you rotate the wheel manually. Then you swap out the portion of the audio track with the constant hissing of the compressed air with the recording. You use the computer-controlled mixer in your video editing program to make a perfectly seamless audio crossover to the fake audio track. Managing the audio portion of things should be quite trivial.

All:

It appears that some of you actually believe that this thing is running from the magnet-ball interaction. That might be where the magnet is purely static, or when the magnet might be moving very very slightly from Mr. Hand. No way! All the magnet is doing is changing the direction of "down." So, who cares if "down" is the pure gravitational straight down or if it is a skewed down that has changed angle because of the influence of the magnet. Look at the wheel for the "regular" down. The ball can roll back and forth, big deal. The regular down is as dead as a doornail and the skewed down is also as dead as a doornail. In both cases the wheel can turn independent of the down direction. There are no continuous unbalanced forces on the wheel that can keep it turning. I am amazed that some of you believe that this is real.

Here is what I posted on the clip:

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Well congratulations guys because it took me a week to figure out the true explanation. And I am embarrassed because you were trying to tell us all along. At 0:58 you hear a compressed air burst. Doh! So indeed, you are just doing some good old-fashioned audio editing and the whole thing is powered by compressed air coming up through a hole in the bottom of the table. Damn good fake, my compliments and thanks for the "Doh!" moment.

User2718218

The response from the author of the clip:

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@User2718218 Thank you for the understanding the purpose of my educational program: History of attempts that have been made to construct p.m. machines.

veproject1

The token tinfoil hat comment times two:

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Interesting to note that the nay-say comments are invective rather than inquisitive. More inciteful than scientific, if you ask me. Reeking of paid disinformation shills. Like the Rush Limbaugh of YouTube. Who are you, and will you ever reveal your name?

BachelderMark 19 hours ago

Impressive, too, considering that the wheel is overcoming the inductive drag of the magnet on the aluminum. It would be interesting to see this done with a plastic wheel.

BachelderMark

And that's why you have a free energy cottage industry!!!! lol

MileHigh

poynt99

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #66 on: 2012-03-06, 23:59:50 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...

MH,

OK, I watched it again full screen and listened carefully to the audio. I tend to agree with you now. The audio does not perfectly match what is actually happening with the ball and wheel. It also seems that they used the same audio file for both runs.

As I said before, they don't reveal below the centre of the base, and there is most likely a hole there to channel the air to the wheel.

A nice fake.

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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Farmhand

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #67 on: 2012-03-07, 01:17:06 »

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Well they need to think up a new fakery method because I think from memory one of their other models used compressed air
to power it too. All their models are powered, I challenged them last year to reveal that they are all powered but got no reply.

Here's a quote of the post at the other forum.

Quote

Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by veproject1
Dear Slider2732,
Thanks for your post.
When I’ve published my video I didn’t have the aim to trick people and I’ve never expected such a heated discussion about obvious things: whether perpetual motion devices are possible or not. I just had in mind to show models that I use at my lectures of Impossibility of Perpetual motion.
As you can see from my website at my lectures/presentations at Schools and Universities I use more than 60 different models that I designed to demonstrate basic mechanical principles.

Hi veproject1, I understand the purpose of the video. Right from the start.
And since you are not trying to trick anyone. Is there a pump in the self filling
flask ? And do the other ones rely on electric motors or inertia devices to
keep running ?

Your video description.
"Thanks for seeing my models and for your comments. Yes, I did all these
machines workable. Not to trick but to inspire...
Please come again and visit my Charity at www.veproject1.org"

And this from the video
" Perpetual motion machines are they impossible ? or..... The best way to be
sure to try to build one"

It's ok to speak in questions when teaching a class. But to be helpful, a public
video should have an explanation if the contents are not obvious and
discernible to the average person.

So will you say publicly that all the devices are powered by stored energy or
the energy you impart to the devices when you spin them ?

Cheers

Regardless of their intent I think they are just adding to the confusion if they don't say they are faked.

BEP

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #68 on: 2012-03-07, 01:23:16 »

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Quote from: MileHigh on 2012-03-06, 23:45:52

It appears that some of you actually believe that this thing is running from the magnet-ball interaction.

No. I do enjoy a little fun with speculating how something could be done, once in a great while. The puff of air sticks out like a sore thumb but I already knew it was a fake.

Declaring these things a fake, even when it takes a day or two to see how it was faked, is easy.

I suppose the fun is over, now.

Quote

The response from the author of the clip:....

He has been around a very long time and is more known as an artist.

In fact, this wheel is nothing compared to his other works.

Why should he claim or admit to anything except what is needed to turn attention to buying his work?

There is a pretty good chance he has sold a half dozen of these things in the last week. You can bet he won't ship an air compressor with it.

MileHigh

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #69 on: 2012-03-07, 01:46:40 »

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Farmhand and WW:

I can see how this is like a kind of sculpture-enigma kind of deal. In that sense Farmhand I don't think the creator is compelled to reveal what's behind the curtain. For me, I looked at his other clips which were obviously powered and made no real attempt to claim a perpetual motion device. Plus you go to his web site and see that he is some kind of artist/educator type of person not looking to sell licenses for a fake free energy device or anything like that. So this is more whimsical artwork than anything else and it's designed to make you think. The secret is all part of the mystery and fun. How do you get the caramel in the Caramilk?

On the other hand, if this clip was associated with some kind of Joe Newman-ish guy with billowing silver hair and he was begging you to send him money then that would be another story. If that were the case he should be fully exposed for what he is. (Where is po' ol' Joe these days?)

WW, yes the fun was taken out of it. I'm sorry. It's like believing in Santa Claus when you are a child, and then not believing in him when you get older, and then believing in the spirit of Santa Claus when you get even older. So I am sure that there still are some entranced YouTubers out there that are still not quite sure.

So sorry to spoil the fun but we are on a free energy research web site and not in the twitter space. Have you seen the twitter-based comments on Sterling Allen's web site? It's like are they people or are they just an army of blind free energy bots on the march?!

It's a wonderful life! The bells still ring! Resonance! lol

When in doubt there is always the mystery of the flying bumblebee if you need a fix.

MileHigh

Or the Caramilk bar.....

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4yqlttpJvk&feature=related[/youtube]

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #70 on: 2012-03-07, 02:15:54 »
Hero Member Posts: 700	When it comes to things like this, I have my own evaluation system. Haven't perfect it yet, but I think it's the right track. You assign negative and positive points and add them up: Fishing line -1 Air blow -1 Fake to make people buy product or donate -1 Fake to educate young kids as claimed -1 If kids says cool and later find out it's fake, they feel tricked and loose interest. +10 lol

BEP

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #71 on: 2012-03-07, 04:40:09 »

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Quote from: Farmhand on 2012-03-07, 01:17:06

Regardless of their intent I think they are just adding to the confusion if they don't say they are faked

Farmhand,

If you witnessed a magic trick performed by a magician, would you expect the magician to tell you that his act was indeed a trick and then continue by telling you how he did it?

Why should he declare his work as fake? Isn't that what we are here for?

Besides, he has already provided the evidence for those looking for signs of quackery. I'm sure he expects them to be satisfied and then move along so he may continue what ever really happens in the dark recesses of his shop.

Maybe, he is just trying to poison young minds with empiric evidence

wattsup

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #72 on: 2012-03-07, 06:54:25 »

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@MH

All right - All ready. Can't a guy have some fun around here. lol

I know how he did it.

At 00:52 to 00:53 when he places the magnet on the magnet block, it pivots. There is a switch there.

At 00:54 look at his right index finger how its pressed hard onto the magnet to hold it down on the switch.

That's why he has to stick the magnet completely into the wheel end to attract the ball inwards so the ball does not block the air path that has to exit under the ball and hit each side plate on those four wheel supports. You can notice the acceleration occurs each time a wheel support is at 6 o'oclock.

You don't need much air to make that wheel turn AND THAT IS because of the magnetism and gravity are already active on the system. It just needs a little nudge to keep it going.

Image below shows no shadow on one object and shadow on the magnet base showing it is slightly raised to provide a place to suck in air.

Also notice he turns the wheel completely around so you can see it from all sides, but he does not do the same for the magnet base. The same side of the magnet base profile is always towards the camera. Not normal.

This means he can take his wheel anywhere he wants and his trick will work just fine.

Blah blah blah.

Party poopers anonymous.

No fun at all.

wattsup

Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it?

ball-air-pump1.jpg (70.37 kB, 951x762 - viewed 452 times.)

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http://etherimpress.com

BEP

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #73 on: 2012-03-07, 10:51:55 »

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Wattsup,

You wouldn't just happen to be one of the group 'proving' all of manned space flight was faked, would you?

OMG! The reed switch did it!

Think........

What other reason would require him to press so hard on the magnet?

Why else would shadows appear under the block?

Why is it not a simple change in the direction for 'DOWN'?

Why pay the shipping charges for the product and the air compressor system to make it run? If you buy it.... the air compressor will come.... with it

Yea, right

How could this be made to work? (Too hard...... Never mind)

Jeez! What a bunch of Carl Saganized Flatlanders!

Have you ever read "Broca's Brain"?

GibbsHelmholtz

Re: Just for fun - a brain teaser - how do they do it? « Reply #74 on: 2012-03-07, 13:08:51 »

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We have to think a little.

Magician performs tricks, but we know before hand he is a magician. If someone shows a p.m. and does not say it's a trick, then he is auto classify as serious, at least these days.

Second point I do not get is this guy build over 60 quality models for museums, science fairs, and universities. These organizations only interest in serious science, not trickery. I could be wrong, but I just point out things to balance the absurdity level.