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Author Topic: Self running coil?  (Read 75586 times)

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
@poynt99

Well with my laymen EE brain as usual I do not catch the obvious. But, you see the cap is showing 30 volts. For me this means the capacitor was receiving at least 30 volts into it until its mF rating was reached, and any more 30 volts added would not make any more difference (wasted). He could not have reached 30 volts with only 2-3 volts sent to that cap. Something had to act like a step up transformer. I don't really know but I find it very curious and would consider the toroid is doing it and not the mosfet gate.

This is essentially what I am saying. The coil acts to step up the voltage like a flyback converter does when pulsed. In this case however, I wonder if the MOSFET is even switching?

.99
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Luc,

If you're interested, I drew up an equivalent circuit for the MOSFET that you may want to try testing. The capacitors roughly emulate what's in the MOSFET under operation. The parasitic capacitors decrease in value with higher supply voltages, but I chose these values based on a 2V supply. It should be in the ball park.

It won't be surprising if you get similar results with these capacitors replacing the MOSFET. The diode is important to include as well.

Let us know if you end up trying this.

.99
« Last Edit: 2010-03-21, 04:52:14 by poynt99 »
   
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Hi everyone,

I had a little free time while my son is visiting his mother and made a new video.

However, it's not showing any over unity :(

Sorry :-[  this may not be what we were hoping for :-\

Let me know if I'm missing something.

Luc

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7CsBr7ouPE
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Hi Luc.

Sorry the circuit didn't meet your hopes. Keep trying you're doing great things.

While your circuit is still together, would you mind trying the test with the caps as per my diagram, figure 1b?

thanks,

.99
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Luc, the reason I asked about the MOSFET and if it was even switching, is because 3.81 volts would not generally be enough to turn a MOSFET ON. You don't really know if the MOSFET is switching fully unless you scope from the Drain lead to the Source. I don't think we saw that. If you do, I will be surprised to see a nice 50% duty-cycle square wave. You'll probably just see spikes.

Your pickup coil was tuned for resonance, so all it needs is a kick, which is what you would get by the function generator, or the 555 timer output going through those parasitic caps in the MOSFET. So ai'm saying that although it may appear that the MOSFET is switching, it indeed may not be. The weak lighting of the LED when placed across the Drain and Source supports what I am saying.

.99
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Hi Luc.

I just watched your video #6 in the series, and in this one you do actually show the D-S scope shot. You see how there is a spike and a small amplitude pulse right after? That's an indication that the MOSFET is not switching on fully, and that the parasitic capacitors around the MOSFET are coupling through the Gate to the Drain pin. Keeping in mind, you are driving the gate with almost 9V, and still it is not switching fully ON. Imagine how little if any the MOSFET is switching when driving it with only 3.81 volts as per your latest video. There will only be spikes feeding through, and it is these spikes that are exciting your pickup coil into resonance, after the toroid coil boosts the voltage up due to the inductive kickback.

Pretty cool stuff once you start digging into the nitty-gritty.

.99
   
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Hi everyone,

I made 2 new videos as experiment requests that a user of the OU forum asked me if I could do.

The links below will take you to my posts so you can find the details and links to the videos.

Sorry to send you there but I'm limited in time at the moment to copy all this.

Test 11 http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8892.msg233815#msg233815

Test 12 http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8892.msg233845#msg233845

Luc
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
No problem Luc.

We appreciate the updates.

I had checked your Youtube channel anyway earlier today and watched the videos at that time.

Thanks,
.99
   
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Hi everyone,

I have an update video: YouTube - Self Running Coil test 13

Scope shot is from video test.

Luc

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad290/gotoluc/SelfOscillation.png
Self running coil?
   
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Hi Luc,

Nice display sooo rich in second harmonic.

Now im off to youtube to see it in action.

The circuit described seems typical for an oscillator using a fet. The 'shot' you give it can be removed if you apply a little bias on the gate. A 100K ohm variable resistor across the fet supply with a 1 meg ohm resistor from the wiper to the gate. Also the transformer may be removed and a 1uf polycarb capacitor placed there directly across the gate to source. This cct works with an IRF840 (think thats the device) but the transformer will need to be DC decoupled from the gate/ground if required in this setup.

Steve.
« Last Edit: 2010-03-27, 01:39:09 by szaxx »
   
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Hi everyone,

I made a new video to seek more answers for those who know the answers to all these things ;)

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obFj9x1u4lA

Please post your "educated" explanations as to why 2 coils of the same inductance behave in such a different way.

Thanks for your time

Luc
   
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Hi all,

Not much input as to why the differences between the 2 coils in my last video. I will make another video when I have time that will have a coil of exact resistance and inductance and we can continue from there.

Here is an update on the self pulsing coil at this time.

Using a IRF640 it is self pulsing at 20KHz with 3vdc input at 14uA + or - 0.5uA

Channel 1 (green) is across the drain and source and Channel 2 (yellow) is across the gate and source. Both probe grounds are connected to source.

Take note of the beautiful Sine Wave the pulse coil is now making to trigger the mosfet gate. I think this is a new and ideal way of triggering a MOSFET.

If anyone feels up to the task, please look up the specs of the IRF640 and do a calculation of an approximate wattage needed to keep its gate triggered at 20KHz please feel free to do so and post your results.

Thanks all for sharing

Luc

Scope Shot:
   
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Luc,

Inductance and resistance are only two characteristics of a coil.

Off-hand I would say the greatest effect on resonance is the larger coil has a much lower turn-by-turn capacitance.

The other differences between the coils will have much less effect on the differences of resonance.

A good test to prove my point would be to select a relatively high capacitance to parallel with both coils. I'll guess at around .1mfd.

Using the same capacitor, find your resonant frequency for each coil. I would expect them to be very close to each other.

   
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@gotoluc

Just wanted to confirm the inductance using my dual bucking toroid.
Lot's of fun with this one.

Inductance is only useful when it gets disconnected.
Capacitance is only useful when it is connected.
Both can pitch and catch, so more inductance like you show is preferable especially in the Ozone Mode where inductance plays a major role.

I wonder if the mosfet was inline between the two coils, connecting and disconnecting what would happen?????


---------------------------
   
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Hi everyone,

I made a new video to try to explain to the best of my understanding what makes this circuit work.

You can watch the video if you want but it's kind of boring as I'm not doing all that much.

Link to Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8BehANEVUo

Here is how I understand it at this time.

A magnet is needed, a ferrite core seems to be important also but what I think is very  important is INDUCTANCE. This is what I mostly say in the above video, so you can watch it if you want or just read this.

Lets say we have a toroid or an open end FERRITE core coil an its inductance is 1 Henry. We know by adding a permanent magnet to the core the coils inductance will drop depending on the strength of the magnet or the saturation point of the core.

I'm quite sure the effect of returned energy works best with the strongest magnet! BUT as I stated above if the magnet is strong you may be left with next to no inductance. The 1 Henry coil you start with can easily go down to 10mH (Milli Henry)

What maybe happening when a permanent magnet (PM) is added to a coils core is when the coil is energized its electromagnetic field  pushes against the permanent magnet field and once the coil is switched off the PM flux bounces back. This is where the return energy is coming from.

Now if we think about it, then we want the most powerful bounce back. So we want a strong magnet!... BUT a strong magnet will reduce your inductance next to nothing as stated above!... who cares, just build it right!... Wrong!... Inductance is what your coil needs to be able to create a strong Electromagnetic field to push against those strong magnets. So if you're left with only 10mH your coil will need a high voltage with much current to be able to create a strong enough push against the PM.

Now for the other problem. If you wind a Mega Inductance coil that reaches the 10 Henry mark it will need much wire length... who cares, just build it right!... Wrong!...wire length give resistance and resistance gives energy losses and not to mention coil reaction time (electromagnetic field building time).

So all these things need to be considered to get the right balance. So what do we do?

I have found and been trying to demonstrate and share since my ORBO replication that if you wind 2 coils in perfect half moons on a ferrite core the Inductance is close to double then the standard single coil toroid. Would this not be a coil design to consider for the above project?... hum... let's see, twice the inductance and no extra resistance then the standard coil. Sounds good to me!  but you decide.

I built mine with 30 AWG which has much resistance and ended with only 6.9 Ohms and over 1 Henry inductance. I would recommend using 20 AWG or a thicker wire if your cores are large enough and wind it to 2 Henry or more if you can. But like I said many things need to be considered, like the total coil resistance, coil reactance time, PM strength to core saturation limit, the right inductance to push the pm field and also the right inductance to bring the coil to resonance. Yes! Resonance, another area to consider and important if you want the coil to be efficient.

Resonance is what's going on when I've been demonstrating the energy going back to the source. This is why I started this topic to bring this possibility to light.  JLN has not found this effect yet, as I think his residual inductance is very small with the magnets used. He would need a much high frequency then he's been using to see it. However I do agree with him that the energy comes from magnets push back when coil is switched off. The other thing  that is needed is a MOSFET as switch to see the resonance effect unless you add capacitance. It appears that the built in capacitance of a mosfet is what is most likely bringing the coil to resonance. I tried it with a regular transistor and nothing happens.

The other interesting finding I have is, the mosfet can self oscillate (switch) itself IF the right combination of inductance between the main coil and pulse coil (added between gate & source) as long as the circuit is tuned to the resonance range. By using a 3vdc feed, my dual coil toroid, IRF640 and tuning coil have achieved resonance to any frequency I want between 5KHz to 50KHz WITHOUT the use of capacitors. Many of the frequency Inductance values have been documented and someone more knowledgeable than me is working out a formula that will be shared with all.

The above is the description to the best of my ability at this time of what is going on in the circuit at this time.

Hope this helps some to better understanding what I've been trying to share.

Luc
   

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Nice bucking coil wattsup!

I asked this question about multiple bucking coils on one core yesterday but no one answered!

Have you have had time to play with this yet?  If so what is the increased performance like?

I have a 3.38" torroid that I wish to construct in a similar way so let me know how your tests go!

 ;D
   
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Hi everyone,

I decided to make a video using the 2 identical toroid's of test 15 video to demonstrate what I had done for myself yesterday that the magnet affects a ferrite core toroid more than just dropping it's inductance.

Below are the scope shot of each at the peak efficiency tuning points.

Please note that I had a little bit of tuning problems with the magnet toroid as the efficiency tuning point is super sensitive compared to the non magnet toroid. But I got it at the end just before the 10 minute limit.

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQxL9W6gVG4

It is also clear by comparing the data of the two shots that there is a gain in the magnet toroid and this is with identical generator gain to each test as I did not touch the generator output.

Luc




   
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Luc:

Those are interesting curves indeed.  What you have found is a resonance associated with the MOSFET switching on and off and the coil charging and discharging.  The timing of the two events is lining up so that you get the maximum peak to peak voltage across the coil.  You notice that the gate drive signal is 90 degrees out of phase with the coil voltage waveform, which is a classic indicator for a resonance condition.

This is a different type of resonance as compared to what you typically think of as resonance, an LC or LCR resonator.  That's where you get a smooth sine wave, just like hitting a tuning fork.  So the capacitance is not a big player here for your resonant frequency.

If you look at carefully at your traces for the coil voltage, you will notice that there are two distinct components that have a slightly different time constant.  The downward part of the curve shows you the coil voltage when the MOSFET is ON, which is charging the coil.  This voltage starts high and finishes low.  The rising part of the curve is the voltage generated by the coil as it starts to discharge.  This voltage starts low and finishes high.  At the resonant frequency these two curves line up and basically stitch themselves together and give you the highest voltage.

Again, this resonance is very different from a classical LC resonator.  You are looking and the charging/discharging voltage response of  a MOSFET-coil-resistor circuit, a.k.a. a "pulse circuit."

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-03-31, 03:14:38 by MileHigh »
   
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Luc:

Another comment that perhaps you will find interesting.  Indeed you are just one step away from an LC resonator with a frequency sweep tester.

Many people have suggested that you put a capacitor in parallel with the coil to set up a classic LC resonator.  In this case then you can tune your pulse generator so that it generates a very narrow pulse, say 2%, at a variable frequency.  i.e.; the MOSFET is ON 2% and OFF 98%.

If you can do this setup then you can search for the true resonant frequency of your LC oscillator.  The L and the C form the "bell" and the vary narrow pulse is like a "hammer" hitting the bell.

Suppose you select a capacitor value to give you a resonant frequency of about 1 KHz.  As you sweep the frequency of the continuous little "hammer blows" when the MOSFET is ON, you should be able to see a nice smooth sine wave voltage response from the LC resonator.  The peak voltage response will be at the resonant frequency.  That's when the hammer is hitting the bell in sync with the bell's natural resonant frequency.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-03-31, 00:39:35 by MileHigh »
   
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Luc:

About your theories:

The magnet may indeed be giving you a "push back" but you can't forget that you had to expend energy to push first.  That will balance out in the end.  Assuming there is a "push back," you push a nugget of energy "into" the magnet and then the magnet pushes that nugget of energy back a short time later.  It's like a short "time bank" for a bit of energy.

You can choose just about whatever size of coil you want and see more or less the same observable effects.  The smaller your coil, the higher the resonant frequency will be.  This whole effect is independent of scale.  If you use a large coil you could get a very nasty shock.

I'm confused by the "two half moons" stuff to double the inductance.  Assuming each half was the same number of turns, they should either work together or cancel each other out to no measured inductance depending on how you connect the wires.  If I understand correctly a "bucking" arrangement is in the self-canceling configuration.

Also, you don't want to use a 10 ohm or 100 ohm resistor for your current meter.  I suggest that you stick with a 1 ohm resistor and use your fancy meter that has 6 digits of accuracy to make super high precision current measurements.  Using a 100 ohm resistor would be crippling your power supply setup.

Good luck with your experiments.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-03-31, 00:49:09 by MileHigh »
   
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Luc:

I'm confused by the "two half moons" stuff to double the inductance.  Assuming each half was the same number of turns, they should either work together or cancel each other out to no measured inductance depending on how you connect the wires.  If I understand correctly a "bucking" arrangement is in the self-canceling configuration.

Also, you don't want to use a 10 ohm or 100 ohm resistor for your current meter.  I suggest that you stick with a 1 ohm resistor and use your fancy meter that has 6 digits of accuracy to make super high precision current measurements.  Using a 100 ohm resistor would be crippling your power supply setup.

Good luck with your experiments.

MileHigh

Hi MileHigh,

Thanks for all the explanations.

It was .99's suggestion that I build this capacitor meter and an excellent one I must say. I use this meter all the time. I think anyone that experiment with pulse circuit should have one. His original circuit suggestion had a 10 Ohm resistor and that was how I originally built it. However some months back I was doing some experiments that required more current then I usually use and the resistor was getting way too hot so I changed it to a 1 Ohm. However, I now need resolution to one digit below uA and my meter was getting stuck at that point on some test and giving me false results. So I went back to the 10 Ohms for now. I'm getting much better and stable details now.

As for the 2 half moon toroid coils. It does give double inductance. Here is Gyula's explanation (below) in a reply post to a user the OU forum

Thanks for sharing your knowledge

Luc

Quote from: MeggerMan on March 24, 2010, 05:04:02 PM

    ....
    Also I am still not sure if your coils are wound so the 2 coils appose each other, just like in a common mode choke.
    In common mode chokes you can have split winding and parallel winding, yours is split.
    The fact that your inductance is so high (more than the sum of the two) would indicate these coils are not wire in common mode config but are wired in series.
    I have lots of cores to test out this idea with and a dual pulse circuit to allow the pulse current to be made square. (Thanks to Paul Lowrance and his mini orbo pulse circuit).
    http://globalfreeenergy.info/2010/03/

    Rob


Hi Rob,

Re on common mode choke: you are correct the winding technique Luc used for his toroidal coils is really the one as the so called common mode chokes are made BUT the big difference is the way how they are connected: Luc connected the two coils in series aiding i.e. the MUTUAL inductances of the two coils add to the sum of the individual inductances in series,  so that the resultant inductance is nearly the 4 times of a single coil, Lresultant=(L1+L2+2M where L1=L2=L in the equation (the two coils are assumed to have the same inductance which is nearly true and M is nearly L because in ring cores the coefficience of coupling is nearly 1 ).  (A useful link on this is here: http://www.daycounter.com/LabBook/Mutual-Inductance.phtml )

I hope this helps clarify your doubt above.

rgds,  Gyula



   
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Luc:

About your main toroidal coil where you have it in two separate parts.  I am assuming that you have the two parts connected in series and they are helping each other and not canceling each other out.  In other words if the current runs clockwise through the first part for a given current direction, when you make the connection then the current will also continue to run clockwise.

When you put the two parts together like that you have a standard toroidal coil where the inductance is proportional to the square of the total number of turns.  With this understanding your comments about "same resistance (implying the same total wire length) and double the inductance" don't make sense.

Your only real concern is the number of turns of wire you wrap around your toroid.  The tightness of the winding means nothing, as long as you are reasonably neat you will be fine.

To wire a two-part coil in series where the second part acts to cancel out (counterclockwise instead of clockwise turns) is not a logical thing to do.  You don't gain anything like that, you loose inductance.

I looked up common mode chokes and I don't think you are doing anything like that in your experiments.  A common mode choke is wired like a transformer with two separate parts on the same core but with independent connections.   The choke will impede the passing of high frequencies.  I don't think you are doing anything like that.

MileHigh
   
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Luc:

About your main toroidal coil where you have it in two separate parts.  I am assuming that you have the two parts connected in series and they are helping each other and not canceling each other out.  In other words if the current runs clockwise through the first part for a given current direction, when you make the connection then the current will also continue to run clockwise.

When you put the two parts together like that you have a standard toroidal coil where the inductance is proportional to the square of the total number of turns.  With this understanding your comments about "same resistance (implying the same total wire length) and double the inductance" don't make sense.

Your only real concern is the number of turns of wire you wrap around your toroid.  The tightness of the winding means nothing, as long as you are reasonably neat you will be fine.

To wire a two-part coil in series where the second part acts to cancel out (counterclockwise instead of clockwise turns) is not a logical thing to do.  You don't gain anything like that, you loose inductance.

I looked up common mode chokes and I don't think you are doing anything like that in your experiments.  A common mode choke is wired like a transformer with two separate parts on the same core but with independent connections.   The choke will impede the passing of high frequencies.  I don't think you are doing anything like that.

MileHigh

Yes and No... yes, the coils are connected in series but No, they don't go both in the same direction. One goes clockwise and the other counter clock wise.

The detailed schematic and toroid coil windings have been posted for a while on page 3 : http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=205.msg2235#msg2235

Luc
   
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Hi everyone,

NextGen67 suggested a test to which I had not done yet.

He suggested I test the single winding toroid with a magnet but dropping the inductance to half and also do the same with the dual coil toroid.

To my surprise both torois resonated at the same frequency.

So I decided to try them at quarter inductance and eighth inductance. Again they are very close.

Seeing these results I would now say that it is indeed the magnet that was causing the large difference in resonating frequency between the two toroids when tested one with magnet and the other without.

This could be easily explain:
The magnet causes a compression on the toroid, which could be like adding a bungee to a swing and the other one nothing. They will have a different resonating frequency. As you can see in the scope shots below, the more magnet flux is applied (stronger bungee) the higher the resonating frequency is. However, keep in mind that we are also lowering the inductance value which is the main reason of the increase in resonating frequency. The differences that I'm referring to is the 2KHz difference between resonating frequency of the two toroids tested (one with magnet and the other without). This is clear to me now and I hope it is for everyone else! since when the magnet is on both they become quite similar.

All tests are using 12.86vdc and IRF640 as switch, triggered by signal generator and tuned to send most current back to source. The green scope probe is between drain and source and yellow probe is between gate and source.

In this post I attached the two shots with magnet to drop inductance to half.

Notice the bonus of extra magnet flux but also with the extra inductance of the dual coil

Luc

First shot is of dual coil toroid at half H returning -8uA and next is single coil toroid at half H returning -7uA




   
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First shot is of dual coil toroid at quarter H returning -22uA and next is single coil toroid at quarter H returning -14uA



   
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