Sine to Square

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Author Topic: Sine to Square (Read 30860 times)

Erfinder	Sine to Square « on: 2013-11-07, 15:26:41 »
Group: Moderator Full Member Posts: 113	[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_i4iyfMf7s&hd=1[/youtube] « Last Edit: 2014-10-04, 18:36:38 by Erfinder »

Paul-R	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #1 on: 2013-11-07, 15:59:25 »
Sr. Member Posts: 493	I remember a technique called the Fourier Series, and if you add up the effects of many sine waves, you get a resultant waveform which may look quite unexpected. If you add a certain set of sine waves at various amplitudes and frequncies, you will get almost anything, including a square wave. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_series I suspect that your coils in their special configuration are creating sine waves which just happen to add up to what is needed to result in a square wave.

Peterae	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #2 on: 2013-11-07, 16:24:56 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3756	Ah you beat me to it, it's having the correct quantity of harmonics. I have worked the other way if you feed a square wave into a tuned cap/inductor tuned to different harmonics of the square frequency you get nice sine waves produced, in other words it's possible to take a square wave and show that it's constituents are lots of sine waves at harmonic frequencies, so therefore you are making lots of harmonics, the higher order of harmonics would give a squarer square wave, if certain harmonics are missing then the square wave will not be so square.

Peterae	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #3 on: 2013-11-07, 17:37:17 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3756	Indeed i did notice, looks like the constituent sines were off frequency or thew wrong frequencies to produce a square wave. What i will say is that if an Inductor with a core is pulsed you will get a sinewave, but if you start saturating the core with a magnet, the sine will start squaring off as the saturation increases. Probably needs someone more educated than myself to look it over.

Peterae	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #4 on: 2013-11-07, 17:51:43 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3756	No problem Erfinder thanks for coming over to OUR, i find your setup interesting in that the square is so square.

WaveWatcher	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #5 on: 2013-11-07, 18:13:17 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 1859	Erfinder, The scope display indicates that you have the mechanical generation of the Gibbs phenomenon. The frequency of the oscillation on the horizontal portions of the square wave would be determined by the quantity of harmonics and resulting frequencies generating the square wave. This does happen in the mechanical world. I was witness to the damage done by a multipole motor that eventually separated form the mounts and left crushed concrete footprints as it traveled down the isle. The distance between the marks increased the further it traveled until it finally slammed on the floor in the final resting place. That motor probably weighed between 1 and 2 tons. --------------------------- "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein "What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg

Duncan	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #6 on: 2013-11-07, 19:01:00 »
Group: Restricted Hero Member Posts: 688	my first try here erfinder ;)Is there such a thing as an odd harmonic ? Perhaps in some of the music scales like our western scale which was truncated by Issac Newton to facilitate the matching of church bells. And on key boards, or else each octave would require its own infinite keyboard as explained by EPD here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9N34dawm00 However I would venture to suggest that natures keyboard has no such limits. And is infinite with what is effectively even numbers (harmonics) and odd numbers (overtones) and so an overtone is never a harmonic and a harmonic is never “odd” (unless your counting incorrectly.) Normally of course you just ignore twaddle like “odd harmonic”as an irrelevant slip of the tongue by a musician as they can have common harmonics and overtones, but as erfinder you are concerned essentially with the composition of a waveforms to the infinite it is important to draw the distinction. Apart from that we still know nothing of this thing .. Its a very nice build .. what's driving it ? Hows it wired what's Its ambition ? You also erfinder use the term “perfect square wave” I'm sure your only to well aware that no such thing exists .. after all nothing can change state in zero time can it? There can neither be a perfect sine or cosine wave both being made up of the infinite … infinitesimal residue of the other . When building a signal generator a “clean sine” is required as its construction embraces all the other waveforms. The infinite progressions that make square and sine wave you seem au fait with … but not the concept of a clean or dirty Sine wave which makes perfect sense to a Radio Ham or a HT grid engineer … The waveform has a high impulse content … very bad power factor or put another way is very nearly resonant... A condition where things start exploding. It may seem like I am splitting hairs erfinder correcting your odd harmonic and your perfect square wave but you are contemplating chaos … infinity … the infinitesimal … and irregular numbers I guess to try and get the very basic picture right with the right language is a good start! Who knows I may be wrong myself and have the wrong vision and be corrected in turn, however at the moment its certainly different to yours so here's the first coconut to throw your ball at … A Harmonic is not and never can be odd (unity accepted) « Last Edit: 2013-11-07, 19:26:19 by Duncan » --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf whilst we know little .. friends remember, In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. D. Erasmus

tinman	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #7 on: 2013-11-07, 19:16:20 »
Group: Guest	It was interesting to note that the square wave started to turn to a sign wave just as the ringing started on the rise and fall of voltage. But why the voltage was stedy(top horizontal trace) there was no ringing?.So the voltage rang while it increased,and also while it decreased,but not while at it's peak. Interesting stuff erfinder

ion	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #8 on: 2013-11-07, 20:21:39 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3639 It's turtles all the way down	This certainly deserves a closer look, and if you can point to the threads showing the exact physical and electrical build or post that info here, it will be much appreciated. It would be interesting to hook the output of your generator to a loudspeaker an listen to the effect as it passes from square to sine on the rundown. The frequency should be in the audible range. Maybe make a .wav file for us to listen to. Could be very interesting. Thank you for posting this neat effect here and for your hard work and good builds. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Duncan	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #9 on: 2013-11-07, 22:16:32 »
Group: Restricted Hero Member Posts: 688	I Certainly didn't mean to ruffle feathers erfinder … and I'm sure if nothing else its directed peoples thoughts back to Fourier transforms and waveform constructs. It is not attitude you are reading from me erfinder it is aggressive questioning not only of your machine but also of my own view of things. There are many sites that will call overtones harmonics … there are even some (and alas you found one) that will just use either anywhere .. and refer to harmonics as odd . I believe a natural square wave has very special qualities and that its composition is entirely different to a sine wave. .that bit however I have never seen in any of the books...except perhaps Dollards, Its also missing from Fourier's. I probe not you erfinder but an area of physics that seems to have been whitewashed out. I'm sure your machine does something quite special , I also suspect you want to know why. The word overtone … like wireless had a very specific meaning and its been smudged and fallen into disrepair much like Tesla's wireless .. you'll find it used correctly regarding Xtal oscillators following harmonic or overtone progression to many Mhz. As for where you picked up information does it matter ? Only in so much as if its wrong you jettison it, and sort the right stuff out. I'm sure now every one is eager to see more and so I'll withdraw gracefully regards D --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf whilst we know little .. friends remember, In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. D. Erasmus

muDped	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #10 on: 2013-11-07, 23:10:42 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 2065	The discussion regarding "overtones" and/or "harmonics" may be a good thing. It seems that the preference for either term is dependent upon training, application and age. Both terms define some multiple of a frequency of basis and most technical folk consider them to be equivalent terms; they're just used a little differently. Those with a scientific bent seem to prefer "harmonic" while those with a musical bent seem to prefer "overtone." --------------------------- The animal mind ALWAYS reacts to what it does not understand. This is what sets dogs barking. If you are going to tell the truth, you are going to have to be okay with barking dogs, because they will harry your passage until you pass through town. Les Visible - 27 February 2020

WaveWatcher	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #11 on: 2013-11-08, 02:51:43 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 1859	Quote from: Erfinder on 2013-11-07, 18:35:14 Now that was interesting......in your opinion can this phenomena be put to good use? Regards I'm not sure. In fact, I'm failing to think where such action may already be used. If you were to ask some motor/generator manufacturer to build you a device that produces square waves as well defined as your device outputs I have serious doubts that any would succeed. This is quite impressive and it is making me curious. ---- I discounted some of the eye-witness reports on that run-away motor as exaggerations but maybe they weren't. One description used the term 'bouncing gyroscope', 'seemed to hover and ten slam on the floor'. I'm glad I missed it The cause was incorrect installation. They had the field leads reversed (DC spindle motor), the motor raced and went out of balance. --------------------------- "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein "What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg

Duncan	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #12 on: 2013-11-08, 06:29:53 »
Group: Restricted Hero Member Posts: 688	Hi Dumped – Thanks for your comment and I'm going to vigorously disagree with you and try my very best to discover a web page that puts these things into the correct context . I didn't of course mean to demonstrate “attitude” regarding erfinders machine I find it interesting, However as he says I have been introduced to it else where . I posted a video and to be honest I can't remember if it was in relation to this machine or another however this was the video and the reason I posted it .. square wave to sine at resonance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJQvqTpBdiQ The response to it and the fact that I openly stated the content under the arc the could only produce specific waveforms was ridiculed. (call it attitude if you want) now Dumped I really don't mind that in fact if I'm wrong I rather appreciate it if people take the time to point out the error forcefully and concisely so I may learn myself. Anyway it didn't happen on this occasion as I say just ridicule. For that very reason I have been at pains to try and point out the whys of the matter .. it certainly isn't anything to do with erfinder I like his work and appreciate his comments. The fact is dumped it seems I have failed to covey the importance of this distinction to you also and IMHO its the key to every free energy machine ever made. Although there are only patches of the theory and physics left, however amongst other things the meaning of Tesla's statement "If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.” with the 3rd and 9th principle overtones being present on the cumulative resonate 6th It becomes quickly apparent, If what I indicate here is correct dumped (and I sincerely believe it is) then a little thought will tell you there is a whole different way to divide electricity quite apart from volts amps leading and lagging and all the rest of the tosh we have learnt that simply “doesn't fit” the machines we are making. A way that we simply don't have the basic principles to handle because they have been hidden and suppressed. I was recently asked to consider the old nut Peter Daveys water heater which I have a rather jaundice view of … I really don’t like the abstract cutting little bits off here and there and trying various shapes … than tune to some thing in a way I don’t understand … and then it doesn't work when you take it somewhere else anyway . And truth be known you didn't really know why it worked in the first place … well if that's engineering I'll go to the foot of our stairs!.. My Mathematics is nothing like as good as it was in my youth and truth be known even then it was a bit "slap stick" however I consider the distinction so very important that I will attempt to open a thread on it . I see MJN is on this forum and as a lot of this is rather the mirror inverse of a system he used for water fracture so I'm rather hoping he will chip in a little …. I'm sure you all,.. including you erfinder now see why I thought it so important to defend my corner, I am like Theseus emerging slowly from the maze clutching a feeble thread . These Theories from years past the work of Tesla Steinmetz and the like (you know the stuff that worked) needs careful exhumation and examination . However I realise now most people and web page information are as awry as you and dumped … I will go and see if I can start a thread explaining a little of it right away. And leave your thread in peace .. again apologies if you got the impression I have an attitude thing with you personally I certainly do not ! and I realise the subject itself is to big to include as a chapter on your thread .. sorry for the distraction Kind Regards D --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf whilst we know little .. friends remember, In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. D. Erasmus

EMdevices	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #13 on: 2013-11-08, 18:23:42 »
Hero Member Posts: 1146	That's interesting Erfinder. Accurate name as well. So this is simply a generator? Or you have a drive circuit? Initially i thought i was looking at the drive signal ( 50 % duty) and when it hit resonance it went to a sine wave. EM

EMdevices	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #14 on: 2013-11-08, 19:32:17 »
Hero Member Posts: 1146	Interesting, so load is resistive? capacitive? Ill wait for those videos, thanks. EM

WaveWatcher	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #15 on: 2013-11-11, 17:34:45 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 1859	Quote from: Erfinder on 2013-11-11, 14:38:18 The effect of interest here is how the "Buffer" capacitor (capacitor which is paralleled with the power supply) is charged to a higher voltage than the supply after I shut the system down. I have built several different pulse motors over the years, and have followed the work of other researchers with great interest. I have never seen anyone demonstrate this effect before. Erfinder, May I suggest that you read up on 'motor regeneration'. This is where the motor becomes a generator because drive is decreased or removed and there is enough angular momentum to keep the motor shaft turning for a bit. Throw a resistor across the cap and you have dynamic braking In short, if the cap is connected to the motor input and power is removed from the cap-motor circuit, I would expect the charge on the cap to be higher than the driving voltage. How long that higher charge remains depends upon the rest of the cap-motor circuit. --------------------------- "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein "What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg

WaveWatcher	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #16 on: 2013-11-11, 23:12:33 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 1859	I suggested that regeneration may be a cause as this is a well known factor to be dealt with in AC and DC drive/motor systems. Regeneration resistors are switched onto the DC bus to absorb this motor momentum energy, provide braking for diesel locomotives, slow the decent of elevators and you will find such circuitry on almost every axis of multi-axis machine tool systems. When the regen resistor circuit fails the resulting condition is 'bus over-voltage'. If your motor outputs a voltage when power is removed and the motor is still turning regeneration is occurring. If your motor doesn't do that,,, well, you have designed a very unique motor. From your motor drawing I can say the motor is quite normal in that it will also act as a generator. Considering blocking diodes, yes, depending on how the diode is wired any regeneration current should be blocked from charging the capacitor. Even when you consider diode junction capacitance it is very unlikely regeneration would charge the capacitor because unusually high frequencies would be the only thing passed by such capacitance. So, I'll now assume a blocking diode is employed to block regen current. And that throws regeneration out the window for charging the cap. I'll just sit back and keep quiet until I see enough detail to answer your questions intelligently. --------------------------- "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein "What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg

ion	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #17 on: 2013-11-12, 15:10:48 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3639 It's turtles all the way down	Erfinder: I'm impressed with the quality of your builds and your clear explanation of your findings. i especially like the simplification of the experiment to a 2 coil device. One thing I was not clear on was the magnet position on the rotor. As an experiment (if you have not already done this) try driving your rotor with a small toy motor, observing power input from your power supply. A small motor will allow more careful plotting of input power due to lower bearing friction and lighter brush drag. See if this changes when you initially load the system with a capacitor. You can also vary the speed and note the wave shape at various speeds and the transition point to see if the loading changes. Maybe I have missed the point that this setup must be driven from a FET pulse, but it seems to work when spun by hand. I made these suggestions with that understanding. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Allcanadian	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #18 on: 2013-11-13, 16:26:06 »
Hero Member Posts: 1326	Hey Erfinder Ok I'm on board as I have built similar devices and have a few machines which can be easily changed to this layout however I have a few questions. I see your using an N channel mosfet is this an IRFP460?, as well how are you switching the mosfet and when? I'm pretty confident I know what is happening as I have built similar devices however real world testing is the only way to know for sure. Regards AC --------------------------- I don't like morning people... or mornings or people Be careful when you blindly follow the Masses... sometimes the "M" is silent.

ion	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #19 on: 2013-11-14, 18:31:47 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3639 It's turtles all the way down	Erfinder quote: Quote how does one concentrate the flux without simultaneously increasing the circuits electrical inertia? The answer is simple, and you won't find it in any text book, even though its as obvious as the nose on a face. My nose is kinda big and gets into trouble sometimes. Is the question: how do you concentrate flux without using ferromagnetic materials? If so, I would use another coreless electromagnet properly positioned to steer flux e.g. two bucking electromagnets in close proximity produce an intense orthogonal radial field to the magnets central axis. There are other modalities. By the way, my suggestion to use a small motor to drive your generator was just so there was no pulsing or electrical input so that you could observe the output unfettered with active circuitry at both low and high speeds and throughout the range. By observing the delta of current required by the small motor you could correlate various loads and look for anomalies. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

EMdevices	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #20 on: 2013-11-19, 14:06:55 »
Hero Member Posts: 1146	Sounds like the coils are resonant, thats what pushes output higher then back emf would generate. So its regeneration with a twist.

Grumpy	Re: Sine to Square « Reply #21 on: 2013-11-19, 15:16:37 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3295 tExB=qr	http://www.veoh.com/

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