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Author Topic: Tariel Kapanadze's devices: How they might be faked  (Read 34935 times)
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@Dumped
Quote
Until the immense atmospheric electrical charge is brought
into play there will not be any "extra-energy" made manifest.
Tap into that and there will be abundant energy...

I would agree the energy has to come from somewhere and there is evidence that it relates to forms of energy we could call Latent or "Hidden", not unlike the fact that what we call Heat is in fact EM energy and that it is not constant but non-uniform in most media not specifically engineered to be uniform. In a standard volume of air some particles are freezing, some boiling and the actual non-averaged temperature varies drastically. In a standard volume of air the non-averaged ionization varies drastically so we can say as a fact this limited view that there is no energy present is false.

This revolves around the concept of Energy and how on one level we can observe one thing and on another level observe something completely different which also relates back to Maxwells Demon. As such it is generally accepted that there is a massive amount of energy present everywhere in everything however to date we have found no practical method to transform billions of very small changes within ambient conditions into one coherent condition. It's also funny that most argue against a point which has already been proven, we have nano-antenna which transforms "Heat" at the fundamental level (Em waves) directly into a potential difference ... electricity, we have solar cells which are really no different which transforms ambient light(Em waves) indirectly. Now to say we cannot go further is to say we can never learn anything new and to say the energy does not exist is pure delusion because 100 years of science has proven otherwise.

The issue here is perception where many small fast changes can appear as a lack of motion not unlike an airplane propeller which appears solid when stationary but when spinning disappears from sight. Now if we were to poke our propeller with a stick the stick would be chopped off at low RPM however at some excessively high RPM our propeller would appear as a solid invisible disk moving so fast that our stick could not penetrate it nor would it be chopped off. This example is not unlike the form of delusion we suffer where things moving incredibly fast at very small or very large scales appears stationary, we are trapped in a material world which for the most part lacks material substance, we are are trapped in a material world seething with energy and yet we say there is none because we cannot see or feel it directly, it is Latent or hidden from us.



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@Farmhand
Quote
And just as a matter of curiosity, can anyone show me reference to any text where Tesla states his single wire or wireless systems
produce extra energy. Anyone ? Any text ? Anything ? It's a transmission system not a free energy device.


Tesla stated catagorically in his lectures that in fact he had succeeded in producing extra/excess energy and this energy was from the Ambient or what we consider to be ambient conditions devoid of energy. As well his intentions were outlined in a document ... "The problem of increasing human energy" ... A DEPARTURE FROM KNOWN METHODS—POSSIBILITY OF A "SELF-ACTING" ENGINE OR MACHINE, INANIMATE, YET CAPABLE, LIKE A LIVING BEING, OF DERIVING ENERGY FROM THE MEDIUM—THE IDEAL WAY OF OBTAINING MOTIVE POWER. I believe the title speaks for itself.

Then we have the issue of T.H.Moray and Tariel Kapanadze, two persons who have known devices which have been tested and supposedly verified to produce excessive electrical energy from an unknown source. Both have stated the technology is based solely on the work of one Nikola Tesla and in fact the greater majority of all "claims" concerning excess energy usually relate in some way to the work or thoughts of Tesla. Moray is an exceptional example as his device was supposedly witnessed by engineers and scientists to produce some 20Kw in the middle of nowhere some 50 miles from the nearest power source. As you may well understand 20,000w is not insignificant nor is the fact that an energy source able to provide this amount of power for "Any" amount of time in the middle of nowhere would be fairly large and expensive considering the technology available at that time.

As far as Tesla's single wire or wireless systems are concerned I do not believe a direct reference was every made by Tesla concerning free energy and that most people have implied there is a connection due to the time lines. That is Tesla is making statements within a certain time frame in which he is filing patents on related technologies and because the time frames are so close the connection was assumed and not proven in any way to my knowledge.


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Ex. I agree the top capacitance must cause displacement, no doubt, that is how capacitors work.
But the displacement can be local to each of the elements (transformers) and they can be on opposite sides of the planet.

With the calculations I just said that that amount of energy could be received, the transmitter could be producing 400 000 volts
and have a grater capacitance. I was just talking about the receiver. Eg, if a 500 kW transmitter was used then it wouldn't be out
of the realms of possibility to be able to receive 1/5 th of that, also the closer the coupling of the transformer the more energy is transferred from secondary to primary
in less cycles. Tesla used fairly tight coupling in the power transmitter/receivers, and this one of the differences. The looser coupling allows a greater resonant rise but
requires more cycles to transfer relative energy levels.  Tesla power and signal systems are different. A loose coupling for 100 volts is not the same distance as a loose coupling for 100 000 volts.

Radio transmitters put energy through the ground, they are designed to radiate from the antenna though is my understanding, but they are ground connected.
Tesla systems of wireless transmission are designed not to radiate from the antenna as I understand it.

AC. I was referring to the transmission systems. They are for transmitting energy.  :) Not for collecting or harnessing it.

Cheers



   
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Abstract
When dielectric materials are brought into contact and then separated, they develop static electricity. For centuries, it has been assumed that such contact charging derives from the spatially homogeneous material properties (along the material’s surface) and that within a given pair of materials, one charges uniformly positively and the other negatively. We demonstrate that this picture of contact charging is incorrect. Whereas each contact-electrified piece develops a net charge of either positive or negative polarity, each surface supports a random “mosaic” of oppositely charged regions of nanoscopic dimensions. These mosaics of surface charge have the same topological characteristics for different types of electrified dielectrics and accommodate significantly more charge per unit area than previously thought.
The mosaics accommodate significantly more charge per unit area than previously estimated for contact electrification, but the overall/“net” charge on an electrified surface remains relatively small due to the “compensation” between the (+) and the (–) regions.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6040/308.full

« Last Edit: 2012-09-10, 22:49:41 by allcanadian »


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...I just said that that amount of energy could be received...

I agree, fh, nevertheless I think it's not the easiest way to fake the system.

   
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Yes I agree it would be a difficult way to fake it, the Tesla coil I mentioned in the Turkey demo, what would be your estimate of it's top terminal capacitance ?
The coupling looks fairly loose as well. One of my questions or wonderings is - Where is the power electronics to create the three phase 50-60 Hz AC ?
Where is the wave form ? Just one real live wave form of the output would be interesting to see. If the wave form is nice neat sine waves and not some kind of beat
frequency wave form there must be either electronics or some kind of conversion device to convert the higher frequency power to 50 - 60 Hz, or a connection to the
grid.

Will the meters used work with "beat" frequencies or other such wave form types.

It would seem to me that any one trying to evaluate the systems power with meters should need to see the wave forms first.

Cheers
   
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...
It would seem to me that any one trying to evaluate the systems power with meters should need to see the wave forms first.
...

I agree. Not only ordinary measurement apparatus (power/volt/ampmeter) are granted only for a low frequency range but also high frequency components of the signal can totally disturb their electronics.

   
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There is also the matter of what would be considered as acceptable as a "free" source of energy. In my opinion even if he was tapping
an artificial source of disturbance which is considered as waste then it's ok, but if he is tapping a source of energy which when he does
causes a load on the resources of another man made system then it not truly free.

Things I find strange are,

1, He claims free energy and to know where it comes from and says he is not stealing it, but he cannot get a patent.

2, If he cannot get a patent and it is real why is he not concerned for his safety ?

3, If it is real and he is not concerned for his safety then why not do some "real deals" for real money.

4, He won't even show a scope shot but will draw the wave form ?

5, If the patent application is real it should be demonstrable from what is in the patent application.

Cheers
   
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Does everyone remember LaserSabre's power strip plugged into itself and how it was able to appear to light incandescent globes and
heater elements. He won't say how exactly it is done as far as I know. When that happens the person should be hounded until the method is revealed

Lasersabers original video illusion apparently has been performed by many others on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNpNsWiyZHY&feature=related

I can't find the original, but at that time was easily able to expose it.

He continues these April fools hoaxes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Lmh4X6hiSo&feature=channel&list=UL

This kind of thing and all the other hoaxes give the search for FE a bad name and muddies the water.

« Last Edit: 2012-09-14, 18:14:05 by ION »


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Having studied all of TK's videos on his solid state generators, like the mechanical generators, I feel that these were refined as fakes to culminate in the Aqua2 device. I'm reasonably happy that there is just a single braided conductor from the tank housing the device, to an 'earth' rod outside the house. The only way I can see that this is powered, is for there to have been hidden conductors within the braid that carry high voltage, with terminating step-up, step-down transformers. Like in the mechanical versions, there are several boxes to be seen in the aquarium which likely conceal the most important components. Around 2KV @ 800mA would probably be sufficient to power the domestic heater he used as a load. Is it possible that TK used a number of back-to back MOT's paralleled up in two's as a power supply fed from then grid, or is there a better approach along these lines?

Hoppy
   
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Having studied all of TK's videos on his solid state generators, like the mechanical generators, I feel that these were refined as fakes to culminate in the Aqua2 device. I'm reasonably happy that there is just a single braided conductor from the tank housing the device, to an 'earth' rod outside the house. The only way I can see that this is powered, is for there to have been hidden conductors within the braid that carry high voltage, with terminating step-up, step-down transformers. Like in the mechanical versions, there are several boxes to be seen in the aquarium which likely conceal the most important components. Around 2KV @ 800mA would probably be sufficient to power the domestic heater he used as a load. Is it possible that TK used a number of back-to back MOT's paralleled up in two's as a power supply fed from then grid, or is there a better approach along these lines?

Hoppy

I agree. Step up / step down would be the way to convey lots of power over thin wires, such as concealed in the braid.

The heater looks to be about 1000 Watts@ 220 V or 4.5 Amps, so assuming reasonable efficiency of step down, carrying 1kV @1 Amp would supply enough juice to fire up the heater. If it used much more, say 1500 Watts it would be closer to your numbers.

He might also use low voltage which is stepped up in the dual ground (original video with the buried radiator) as one ground and the water faucet fed from underground power cable and rubber hose for water/insulation.
That faucet looks mighty shaky for a buried pipe. A watchful accomplice probably switches power on and off at appropriate times to avoid electrocuting anyone.

For Aqua2 lots of MOT's would be fine for source but too heavy for the stepdown. Here is where a spark gap and air coil with the right turns ratio could transform the 2kV down to 220 V. A crude step down switcher. I feel he may have converted to DC at the step up to avoid overly stressing the dielectric in the transmission wire.

In Aqua1 as part of the illusion TK uses a 9 volt battery and relay interlock circuit to switch the main power on and off.
This is totally unnecessary but adds intrigue. He could have just used a switch, but this has become his trademark.

TK carries himself well as showman and master illusionist, but always has a slightly worried look and nervousness as if someone will shortly expose his craft.
« Last Edit: 2012-09-14, 19:26:51 by ION »


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I agree. Step up / step down would be the way to convey lots of power over thin wires, such as concealed in the braid.

He might also use low voltage which is stepped up in the dual ground original video (with the buried radiator as one ground and the water faucet fed from underground rubber hose (and power cable). That faucet looks mighty shaky for a buried pipe. A watchful accomplice switches power on and off at appropriate times to avoid electrocuting anyone.

For aqua2 lots of MOT's would be too heavy. Here is where a spark gap and air coil with the right turns ratio could transform the 2kV down to 220 V. A crude step down switcher.

As part of the illusion TK uses a 9 volt battery and relay interlock circuit to switch the main power on and off.
This is totally unnecessary but adds intrigue. He could have just used a switch.

ION,

Thanks for your comments. I had not considered an even more basic step-down method using an air cored transformer but it does make sense given that getting hold of co-ax for the air coil was important to him. I'm not sure that its being stepped-down with the coil on view as I cannot remember seeing any sign of a second winding (will look again) but the transformer could be housed in one of the boxes.

Hoppy
   
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ION,

Thanks for your comments. I had not considered an even more basic step-down method using an air cored transformer but it does make sense given that getting hold of co-ax for the air coil was important to him. I'm not sure that its being stepped-down with the coil on view as I cannot remember seeing any sign of a second winding (will look again) but the transformer could be housed in one of the boxes.

Hoppy

Yes, there could be a second transformer hidden, but if it were operating at 50 Hz and supplying 1kW or more it would be in the range of 10-20 lbs.

A tap on the primary of the air core at the 20% point would work. (autotransformer)

Alternately a high voltage transistor or FET operated switchmode would only require a relatively small inductor with a ferrite core to get the job done.

There are many ways to slice this.

In the Aqua2 video 1 am more than a bit suspicious of the ground outside the window and how carefully the assistant touches it.


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Yes, there could be a second transformer hidden, but if it were operating at 50 Hz and supplying 1kW or more it would be in the range of 10-20 lbs.

A tap on the primary of the air core at the 20% point would work. (autotransformer)

Alternately a high voltage transistor or FET operated switchmode would only require a small inductor with a ferrite core to get the job done.

An auto-transformer would tie-up closer with the patent and I can see a more likely possibility for a 3-wire coax coil configuration, so is anyone with more experience with HV experimentation than me, care to put forward a possible practical circuit schematic based on the supply through conductors in the braid carrying HV (around 2-3KV) at 50Hz and using a coax based auto-transformer that ties up with the physical appearance of the one on view in the tank?

Hoppy
   
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I don't have anything much to add, except that I don't think it will matter much if he is outed, it will open the eyes of a few but
the hard core fans probably wouldn't settle for anything less than an admission from Tariel, and even then some would say that he lied when he admitted fakery.
If Tariel is a faker, then he would not be wholly to blame for his fame and fakery, part of the blame should go to all those who promoted him
and pushed the story a bit further, everyone who just believes and talks up a faker gives the faker confidence. If more people questioned and asked for
better proofs the fakers wouldn't be so bold. All the "wanna believe in free energy from nowhere" crowd enable the fakes. If a faker posted a video
and it was ignored, laughed at or the claimant was simply asked to provide better proof then the faker has lost, they require attention for their plans
of getting money from others by deception.

Anyway if he wants me to believe him he needs to be more upfront and show a simple circuit that can be replicated by many to show more out than put in.
If everybody else said and thought the same way there would be no point to fakery like this. No one would be fooled.

There is a knock on effect where if the fans and promoters are made to see they have been duped and they suffer embarrassment from it, then they
might not be so quick to become a fan boy and require more proofs themselves and so everything would get more real,
but if there are no disincentives things will tend to get less real.

The folks who ask for proofs and seek to disadvantage the fakers will never need to be praised for their efforts, it is duty.
There are many truth seekers, the numbers are growing. There is no point to just believing all these claims. The point to this endeavor is
real gains, real gains require real measurements and real proof to be convincing. In my opinion.  

Cheers  
   
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I  feel a bit sorry for TK, as he has dug a hole and now must suffer sleepless nights and bad health due to the stress of the situation.

If he had something real and released it to the world, he would be famous and wanted for interview on many shows, and could command a lot of money for this. He would not remain poor by giving it away.

As it is with most illusionists, they must keep the game going. Their secret ingredient is kept to them only.

I also feel a bit sorry for the young wide eyed folk, the potential investors and actual investors and benefactors that have lost money on this and other such schemes. It is a hard lesson.

There is, however, value in all this if it gets us to think well outside the box.

Farmhand said it well in the entire last post, but this is the best and I quote him:

Quote
The point to this endeavor is real gains, real gains require real measurements and real proof to be convincing. In my opinion.  

Hoppy:

I can offer a few circuits that will get the illusion to work, but outside of hearsay are we sure he used coax in his main coil. Is there visual proof in any of the videos? Also not sure of why you think 3 wire coax is needed, as single conductor plus shield will carry the current.


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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Anyway if he wants me to believe him he needs to be more upfront and show a simple circuit that can be replicated by many to show more out than put in.
If everybody else said and thought the same way there would be no point to fakery like this. No one would be fooled.
So have we now officially relegated TK as a fake?

Steven Mark never provided anything close to a circuit schematic, nor a clear description of his device, yet many still believe it is/was real.

Is there really that much difference between the two in how they present their devices?
   
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So have we now officially relegated TK as a fake?

Steven Mark never provided anything close to a circuit schematic, nor a clear description of his device, yet many still believe it is/was real.

Is there really that much difference between the two in how they present their devices?

Nothing is official here. I have prefaced most of my writings with "it is my opinion".  There is always a chance it could be real.

Can't speak for others, but prefer to work both sides of the issue, as I also have with the SM devices.

There are numerous red flags that go up for both devices.

Yet both devices are in some ways very intriguing.

The biggest differences between the devices is TK's need for one or more "ground wires" and a spark gap.

Other than that, they both have coils and misc. components and secrecy.

We have a pertinent patent application from TK that to my knowledge, no one has succeeded in replicating to produce any reasonable degree of OU.

We have no such thing (patents) from SM, only the videos and dialog between LM and (?SM?)

Other threads under TK devices dispense with lack of belief and run full force into  discussion and attempts at replication. Various hypothesis are bandied about. Nothing producing 2 to 5 kW is demonstrated nor anything near OU.

I feel this thread lends some balance. The jury, however is still out. Only successfully replicated devices going viral  will speak the full truth.

P.S. The only thing that keeps me in the game with the SM devices is the witnessed lab reports of Dr Schinzinger.
If these can be proven faked, then I'm out. Considering the dialogue in these,  the letters, and the timeline, and Schinzingers expertise, credentials and ethics, I believe them to be real, but will always keep an open mind and consider how it all may have been faked, even enough to fool Dr. Schinzinger.


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I agree, all I have is an opinion as well. Without any device to test that is all we can have.
I also agree the Steve Marks device is different because of it's size and what it appears to do.
I have serious doubts about it though, again just an opinion of course.

Anyway I've been thinking about patents and free energy devices. I came to the conclusions that,

1. If a application is made for a device that says it will produce extra energy, then they can't really
grant the patent and say it is ok to make them if the energy source is not known or understood even by the applicant.
If it was dangerous they would be liable somehow I guess.

2. If an application is filed and the source is described by the applicant as a new source of energy
not known or understood by "mainstream science", then they can't really grant that either until the source of energy is
defined or understood by "mainstream science". Same reasons of liability. Imagine if patents were granted for nuclear reactors without anyone
knowing of the consequences, who would be to blame for the damage and responsible for it ?

3. If the source of energy cannot be defined or is not understood then those who make and use them
should probably just do it without the patent, But if it is dangerous and causes health problems or something
then they are the ones liable and they must take responsibility or responsibility must be waived or something.

I don't believe in patents much anyway. If I see someone using something I like and I want one and can make it I will.
The information about the device is given when I see it with my eyes, I then am in possession of the knowledge and can use it
for my own needs. If someone doesn't want anyone else to copy something of theirs they should keep it secret.

Imagine if when the first guy who made a hat seen people copy his hat and ran around trying to tell everyone they could
not make their own hats unless they paid him.   :D

If you make something good just use it, let others copy it I say.

The liability issue I mean is "Common Law". If I do something that I know causes harm or loss to another which is avoidable,
then I am responsible and must compensate.
No need for waivers though if you are "up front" and say you don't know if it is dangerous. If you said something was safe
or not dangerous when it actually was then you would be liable. And it could be more serious than just needing to compensate.
Also if you say it is safe and know it is not, then it is even more serious.

Cheers
   
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@fh

I agree with almost everything you say. Nevertheless a patent must just be a description of a technical mean to obtain a useful effect. If there is an underlying unknown theory to explain the effect, it is not required in the patent. If the inventor of a free energy machine knows the theory, he can better protect his invention by describing many ways to obtain the effect. If he is ignoring the theory, he may fear that others find alternative ways to exploit the theory to get the same effects, bypassing his patent. Nevertheless if he files a patent, he takes the risk.

Now if the inventor files a patent while hiding key elements, the patent is not reproducible. Perhaps some investor will contact him to get more information in order to duplicate the machine, but if the inventor give it him, he can earn a little money for that but consequently his problem becomes the same as if he had filed the patent with all the details. And if the inventor doesn't give it him, no one is able to build the machine and so the patent remains unnecessary and the inventor will earn nothing. 

So my conclusion is that any patent that is not reproducible is simply either a fraud or a way for egocentric people to leave their name in the "history".

   
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Hoppy:

I can offer a few circuits that will get the illusion to work, but outside of hearsay are we sure he used coax in his main coil. Is there visual proof in any of the videos? Also not sure of why you think 3 wire coax is needed, as single conductor plus shield will carry the current.


ION:

No, not 3-wire coax but there could be 3 connections to form an auto-transformer.

No certainty on the use of co-ax but it does look very likely from the hi-res photos. Also, i think he used the stripped-off braided screen for the 'earth' conductor.

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ION:
No, not 3-wire coax but there could be 3 connections to form an auto-transformer.
No certainty on the use of co-ax but it does look very likely from the hi-res photos. Also, i think he used the stripped-off braided screen for the 'earth' conductor.

Hoppy

Ok, now I understand what you meant.

Could you point me to those high-res photos?

Also, if you think he stripped off the braided screen for the earth conductor, that would leave only the inner conductor. Not a true coaxial transformer then.
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On another note completely regarding the purpose of this thread, I believe one should use the full force of their intellect in trying to prove either stance i.e. that it be fake or that it be real.

To be timid about either stance would not allow us to deeply penetrate the mind of the inventor or veracity of the proposed device.

 In other words, we need to invest ourselves fully into either position as if it were truth. So sometimes we talk as if it were a truth to bolster our energy to penetrate to the truth.

This happens or should happen in either stance be it real or fake. Sometimes this means holding both stances in our mind at the same time, a difficult situation which can grind our gears and waste our energy.

For me what works best is to invest myself fully in the position that I have temporarily chosen and explore it as fully as possible. When this is fully exhausted, then I go to the opposite stance and do the same. This prevents my energy from being conflicted.

When this process is finished to whatever degree possible based on available evidence, only then I can rest both stances and form an educated opinion.



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Ok, now I understand what you meant.

Could you point me to those high-res photos?

Also, if you think he stripped off the braided screen for the earth conductor, that would leave only the inner conductor. Not a true coaxial transformer then.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On another note completely regarding the purpose of this thread, I believe one should use the full force of their intellect in trying to prove either stance i.e. that it be fake or that it be real.

To be timid about either stance would not allow us to deeply penetrate the mind of the inventor or veracity of the proposed device.

 In other words, we need to invest ourselves fully into either position as if it were truth. So sometimes we talk as if it were a truth to bolster our energy to penetrate to the truth.

This happens or should happen in either stance be it real or fake. Sometimes this means holding both stances in our mind at the same time, a difficult situation which can grind our gears and waste our energy.

For me what works best is to invest myself fully in the position that I have temporarily chosen and explore it as fully as possible. When this is fully exhausted, then I go to the opposite stance and do the same. This prevents my energy from being conflicted.

When this process is finished to whatever degree possible based on available evidence, only then I can rest both stances and form an educated opinion.



ION:

There are a lot of reasonably good photos (hi res compared to the poor quality video footage) on OU.com in the 'Selfrunning Free Energy devices up to 5 KW from Tariel Kapanadze' thread starting from around post 843.

Its quite possible that he was just using the coil as a choke and using the inner conductor of the coax with its poly insulation for its high insulation property. The prime reason for TK chosing coax may have been to use the braided screen, otherwise why did he not have just chosen an ordinary HV wire for coil and earth conductor, as he had done in previous builds. He apparently reported that it was important that he acquired some co-ax which he had to get hold of before he could finish the Aqua2.

I agree with you that its important to also look at claims as being genuine but in the case of the Aqua2 device, IMO its difficult to progress along this route as there is only photographic evidence and a very sketchy patent document.

Hoppy
   

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Frequency equals matter...


Buy me a drink
Someone posted on one of my youtubes if it is possible to focus the EMP into a singular path of conduction.
I thought 'How interesting'. What would be a way to funnel this radiative emission into a sink? And then use or consume this new flow.


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Buy me some coffee
If i am correct in saying that an EMP event is radiant in nature then Tesla already told us to use a metallic shield/plate to dissipate the radiant event across a large surface area think ground planes in pcb's, current can then be piped away using conventional wire, at this point it continues as conventional current for which we can use as per normal.

If coax was used then the radiant producing event could be placed inside the coax preferably where the radiant event is concocted inside the central core of the coax, the resulting charge and current would manifest in the out sheaf of the coax, this only works if you can find the potential or return path for the current, this maybe where displacement current enters.

My preference would be to place a dielectric material over the coax sheaf and then wrap an axial flat shaped wire down over this, the coax sheaf collects the radiant event and cannot pass anyfurther outwards the dielectric begins to take charge, the potential is taken from the resulting capacitor which results from the coax and the flat axially wound wire which also exhibits some inductance.

When i tried this it worked but i could not get a large enough capacitance or surface area, i realize now i should have moved further away from the radiant event.
   
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