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Author Topic: Marinov Generator  (Read 28880 times)

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Bright idea! Especially if you pick the current right in the middle.

If you have a long bar magnet, you could also try this:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2470.msg74662#msg74662 (if there is a voltage, this would be the first experimental evidence of a HPG with the rotating conductor outside the magnetic field).

Not sure i understand there F6,as the B field exists all along the length of a magnet or solenoid,and so a voltage would indeed be produced across the disc. The magnetic field would cut the disc just as that of a HPG.


Brad


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Not sure i understand there F6,as the B field exists all along the length of a magnet or solenoid,and so a voltage would indeed be produced across the disc. The magnetic field would cut the disc just as that of a HPG.


Brad

There is no B field outside a long solenoid (in fact there is a weak residual field if the solenoid is not infinite). See here explanation, § "Outside". A long cylinder magnet is exactly like a long solenoid carrying a DC current.
In the proposed experiment, the disk has a hole, and B=0 at the position of the remaining part. The magnetic flux is only crossing the hole, there is no flux through the metal part.

The Lorentz force applying to the disk electrons is the explanation of the Faraday disk. Here it can't apply. Nevertheless I expect a current. A HPG without magnetic flux through the rotating conductor would be a great innovation. I haven't seen it anywhere else except in the Marinov's setup which is a proof of concept more complicated than mine.




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There is no B field outside a long solenoid (in fact there is a weak residual field if the solenoid is not infinite). See here explanation, § "Outside". A long cylinder magnet is exactly like a long solenoid carrying a DC current.
In the proposed experiment, the disk has a hole, and B=0 at the position of the remaining part. The magnetic flux is only crossing the hole, there is no flux through the metal part.

The Lorentz force applying to the disk electrons is the explanation of the Faraday disk. Here it can't apply. Nevertheless I expect a current. A HPG without magnetic flux through the rotating conductor would be a great innovation. I haven't seen it anywhere else except in the Marinov's setup which is a proof of concept more complicated than mine.

Ah,ok
Looking at your sketch again,i see the magnet has to be a cylinder and not a solid rod magnet.

I assume this is the difference ?.


Brad


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Ah,ok
Looking at your sketch again,i see the magnet has to be a cylinder and not a solid rod magnet.

I assume this is the difference ?.


Brad

The magnet is a solid rod magnet. By "cylinder" I meant a cylinder that was not hollow, that was not just a drum.
But maybe I didn't understand your question.

Actually, it doesn't matter if there's a hole in the magnet. For example, the rod could be composed of many disc magnets or ring magnets. The important point is that the magnetization is along the axis.





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The magnet is a solid rod magnet. By "cylinder" I meant a cylinder that was not hollow, that was not just a drum.
But maybe I didn't understand your question.

Actually, it doesn't matter if there's a hole in the magnet. For example, the rod could be composed of many disc magnets or ring magnets. The important point is that the magnetization is along the axis.

Ok,well then i still do not understand as to why this setup of yours will not work just like a HPG,as the magnetic flux will still be cutting through the disk.
I can tell you right now that it will work as a HPM,so therefor it should also work as a generator.

If we were to use a long solenoid,and where the copper disk was a thin secondary coil,then passing an AC current through the solenoid will result in the thin secondary being induced.


Brad


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Ok,well then i still do not understand as to why this setup of yours will not work just like a HPG,as the magnetic flux will still be cutting through the disk.
...

However, I gave the key to this understanding: Lorentz's force. Electrons are only subjected to this force if they bathe in the magnetic field. No B field through the disc between the two sliding contacts, so no radial Lorentz's force on the electrons.
And yet there should be one.

Quote
If we were to use a long solenoid,and where the copper disk was a thin secondary coil,then passing an AC current through the solenoid will result in the thin secondary being induced.

In this case the force on the electrons is tangential, not radial, and due to dA/dt, not to the Lorentz force.
Nevertheless it's the equivalent for the mechanical case that my setup should show: force without a B field at the position of the electrons.






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However, I gave the key to this understanding: Lorentz's force. Electrons are only subjected to this force if they bathe in the magnetic field. No B field through the disc between the two sliding contacts, so no radial Lorentz's force on the electrons.


Well you've lost me,as i see a clear B field through the disk,and the Lorents force will be at right angles to the B field.
It seems no different to that of a HPG to me.
See pic below.


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Well you've lost me,as i see a clear B field through the disk,and the Lorents force will be at right angles to the B field.
It seems no different to that of a HPG to me.
See pic below.

You have shown a poor representation, probably from weak magnets (AlNiCo or ferrite which have more leaks), and the rod is not long enough compared to the size of the disc.
See what you will have with a long neodymium rod:



See also : https://www.quora.com/Why-is-there-no-magnetic-field-outside-the-current-carrying-solenoid


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You have shown a poor representation, probably from weak magnets (AlNiCo or ferrite which have more leaks), and the rod is not long enough compared to the size of the disc.
See what you will have with a long neodymium rod:



See also : https://www.quora.com/Why-is-there-no-magnetic-field-outside-the-current-carrying-solenoid

Ah,ok.
Well we would need a really long magnet for that,1 which i do not have.


Brad


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For those here with an understanding of the flux field around a solenoid or long cylindrical PM, where will the energized wire go shown in the illustration below and why?

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For those here with an understanding of the flux field around a solenoid or long cylindrical PM, where will the energized wire go shown in the illustration below and why?

Regards,
Pm

What do you mean by !energized wire!  ?


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I think he means a wire carrying a current into the page as denoted by the cross or plus sign in the circle.  The wire will follow Fleming's LH rule.
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I think he means a wire carrying a current into the page as denoted by the cross or plus sign in the circle.  The wire will follow Fleming's LH rule.
Smudge

Well in that case we need to know--
1-what is it that is trying to be achieved ?
2-where is the position of the second current carrying wire ?


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Ah,ok.
Well we would need a really long magnet for that,1 which i do not have.


Brad

Your magnet is long enough. Simply use a smaller disc, for example with a rim around the magnet at a distance approximately equal to the radius of the rod.
The proof of concept is obtained if you measured about the same voltage between the center of the magnet and its periphery (functioning with the magnetic field through the disk, classical "Faraday's disk generator"), as between the periphery of the magnet at the position of the disk and the rim of the disk (functioning with the vector potential and without magnetic field through the disk).



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Well in that case we need to know--
1-what is it that is trying to be achieved ?
2-where is the position of the second current carrying wire ?

I find it interesting that no one to date has ventured a guess!  Or done the experiment!  With all due respect, I see much theory being discussed here so I would think this should be easy to analyze or answer.

My point in posting this was to have the results explained.  I have my own idea but maybe it's so simple that I just don't "get it".

There is only one current carrying wire positioned in close proximity of the PM with the ability to move somewhat freely.  The ends of this wire simply connect to a DC power supply.

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I did the experiment and like mentioned by Smudge, the wire will follow Fleming's LH rule, so the field will
be like drawn and the both fields will repel causing the wire to move to the right.

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I did the experiment and like mentioned by Smudge, the wire will follow Fleming's LH rule, so the field will
be like drawn and the both fields will repel causing the wire to move to the right.

Itsu

Will the wire also move up or down?

Am I out out of the park here to suggest the magnet will move in relationship to the wire, like in John Bedini's zero force motor?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-GZerEwObo

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I did the experiment and like mentioned by Smudge, the wire will follow Fleming's LH rule, so the field will
be like drawn and the both fields will repel causing the wire to move to the right.

Itsu


ooops,   my bad,   i did not check the polarity of the magnet,  turns out in the above post it was South up instead of North.
Doing it again making sure North is up,  the wire is attracted to the magnet, so to the left......

Laying the magnets flat (horizontal) on the bench does not show any movement left or right,   meaning up or down when put vertical.

Sorry for the mistake,  Itsu
   
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I did the experiment and like mentioned by Smudge, the wire will follow Fleming's LH rule, so the field will
be like drawn and the both fields will repel causing the wire to move to the right.

Itsu

Itsu,

Was your wire movement restricted?  Did the wire only move to the right?

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ooops,   my bad,   i did not check the polarity of the magnet,  turns out in the above post it was South up instead of North.
Doing it again making sure North is up,  the wire is attracted to the magnet, so to the left......

Laying the magnets flat (horizontal) on the bench does not show any movement left or right,   meaning up or down when put vertical.

Sorry for the mistake,  Itsu

Itsu,

I missed this post of yours while I was creating my previous post so my question now is, where did the wire end up in relation to the magnet or where did it attach to the magnet?

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PM,

the wire is a cliplead wire about 30cm long fixed on both sides hanging in a loop.
Magnet is a stack of ceramic disk magnets 5cm long.

at about 0.5cm from the magnet stack, the wire will move about 3mm, almost touching the magnet.

Redoing the horizontal test shows a very slight movement to the left (north at left).

Using about 7V from my PS going into current limitation.

Itsu
   
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PM,

the wire is a cliplead wire about 30cm long fixed on both sides hanging in a loop.
Magnet is a stack of ceramic disk magnets 5cm long.

at about 0.5cm from the magnet stack, the wire will move about 3mm, almost touching the magnet.

Redoing the horizontal test shows a very slight movement to the left (north at left).

Using about 7V from my PS going into current limitation.

Itsu

Itsu,

Thanks for doing the experiment.  I have included a link to a video of my results done a few years back and I'm curious to see if you get the same results with your PM assembly. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2JFDpTE_ls

My question is, why the apparent attraction to the bloch wall?

Pm
   

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Will the wire also move up or down?

Am I out out of the park here to suggest the magnet will move in relationship to the wire, like in John ######'s zero force motor?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-GZerEwObo

Ron

There is nothing special about the zero force motor.
It's simply the magnet being repelled from the like field of the solenoid,and attracted to the unlike field of the solenoid.


Brad


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Itsu,

Thanks for doing the experiment.  I have included a link to a video of my results done a few years back and I'm curious to see if you get the same results with your PM assembly. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2JFDpTE_ls

My question is, why the apparent attraction to the bloch wall?

Pm

First off,there is no !bloch wall! as you call it.

As far as your current carrying conductor go's--
Im not sure as to why it would choose a set side of the magnet,depending on which way the current flows through the conductor.

I will have to experiment with that tonight.
I would think it has something to do with the field spin of the PM,and the field spin around the conductor.
A PMs field spin is concentrated at the center of the two poles,so this may answer that.


Brad



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Itsu,

Thanks for doing the experiment.  I have included a link to a video of my results done a few years back and I'm curious to see if you get the same results with your PM assembly. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2JFDpTE_ls

My question is, why the apparent attraction to the bloch wall?

Pm

Ok,this is indeed odd,and maybe some one here can explain it,but i cant.

Quote
My question is, why the apparent attraction to the bloch wall?

I have found it depends on which way your PM is facing as to whether the current carrying conductor is attracted to the center of the magnet,or repelled away from it.

So far i have found the following

1-the current carrying conductor is repelled by both the north and south fields of the PM,even though the current flow direction remains the same.

2-if the current carrying conductor is attracted to the center of the magnet,you can either invert the current flow through the inductor,or spin the magnet 180* to make the conductor become repelled by the center of the magnet.

3-The conductor is always repelled by the center on one side of the PM,but attracted to the center on the other side of the PM.

I think this effect is caused by the field within the center of the PM,and not the outer field of the PM.

If we look at the picture below,where we see the field of the PM,and the field of a current carrying conductor,and we take note of the PMs field inside the magnet,and disregard the field around the PM,we see that if the conductor is on one side of the PM,the magnetic field flow is the same direction. If we place the conductor on the other side of the PM,we see the fields flow is in the opposite direction. So on one side of the PM the conductor would be attracted to the magnet,and on the other side it would be repelled. And as i have stated before,the magnetic field is at it's most concentrated at the center of the magnet,not at each pole.

This would explain what we see in my video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5SKYiSxSBk

Im calling this the Partzman effect  O0


Brad


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