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Author Topic: electrolysis with nano-pulse power supply  (Read 291019 times)
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Hi Guys

My name is Peter. I am from Qld Australia .
A big thanks to Les and all the others here who have a positive input to this thread. I really do appreciate you guys who are actually doing something and shareing what your doing , even if you find out later you did it wrong ( like I just have )  I appreciate your courage and your efforts to share . No one ever achieved anything positive with out the help of others.

I am the person who Les refers too as the carpenter\builder on Reply #73
Everything Les has said about me is true and correct . Ive known Les for about 3 or 4 years now . One of the great things I like about Les is that he struggles to exaggerate and hates lies. Fairly opposite to me really, I have been known to do  both with ease.

I am a biased believer in “Overunity” especially where Hydroxy concerned  and I have NO proof or evidence to support this belief at all (other than my own small experiences) . Plus I don’t care if others don’t believe and I don’t like to argue the pros and cons either. One thing I do believe strongly is that “Tesla” 70 years ago understood twice as much about  “Energy” then most electrical engineers  today (with all the so called advancements in technology and this great shareing tool called the internet) sometimes too much information can destroy ones ability to experiment for ourselves and think outside the box.  Tesla’s biggest problem was he didn’t approach business people with enough respect and savvy . Other wise this energy equation would have been solved by now .

For a while, I wasn’t going to post anything here , my technical explanations would only probably do more  harm then help. And really I am just a simple replicator\builder who pays others to do things. I’m no genius . I just have a simple vision. Water contains power and there is a way to unlock , contain and deliver it in a safe and economical way.

I am not interested in arguing or debateing anything at all , so I probably wont respond to anyones post . If you are a biased believer like myself and want to ask simple questions , you can PM me . If by your own past posts , you come across as an agitator , don’t be surprised if I don’t reply.  I probably wont respond straight away  either , because I work fairly big hours .
The main reason that I felt to say something right now is that we had a small but quite dangerous explosion a few weeks ago . We had planned to make a video to show Les and within 30 secounds the device exploded . The quality of our build was slightly poor and inaccurate , proving to us how dangerous and volatile Hydroxy is . Please be carefull. Always wear eye protection, the liquid koh can blind you .

We have to rebuild the outer case and seal off the arcing . Testing , testing and more SAFE testing is the key. Do not get complacent, or you will get hurt.

I will try and attach some photos of the smashed caseing . Also if you are thinking of building an electrolyser , please be warned , its expensive and very time consuming . Plus there seems to be great periods of time where there seems to nothing happening , cause your waiting for people or supplies to get to you . Do your home work before you start building . Count the cost . I now see it as this great adventure of discovery  .

Too all the mad scientists and experimenters  , I salute you. Down with the naysayers , off with their heads . Enjoy the chase .

Peter B

   

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Welcome Peter, that was quite a build, pity it blew up :'(

I work on the small scale to prove an item and let others build big once the proof of concept is there.

Keep up the good work, and be careful

regards

Mike 8)


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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Dear Peter.

Oh my goodness, what a mess !!  Is that case made from Polycarbonate ?

I have attached a little drawing that might help save the cell case from total destruction. It would allow the expansion to simply lift the top cover just like a large safety valve.

As an aside, I remember reading about the specification for the early Brayton cycle engines. These engines mixed air and Town gas and then compressed it into a storage chamber that was also part of the engine's construction. It was stated that the casing must be made of the finest Ordnance Bronze to withstand a blow back, which, from what I can gather, they suffered quite often !! They too had a large diameter cap held down by springs as a safety device.

If it is of any consolation we are now into double figure bubbler destruction !!   :)

Cheers Grum.


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
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Dear Peter,

Sorry to hear about your accident with your Electrolyser tank.
Just saw the picture(s).
Hope You are safe and NOT get hurt too much by the explosion.

Can you recap/analyse what went wrong and caused the arcing with the fatal outcome.

Please share it, we can all learn from previous mistakes.

Greetings, Alex
   
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I have attached a little drawing that might help save the cell case from total destruction. It would allow the expansion to simply lift the top cover just like a large safety valve.

As an aside, I remember reading about the specification for the early Brayton cycle engines. These engines mixed air and Town gas and then compressed it into a storage chamber that was also part of the engine's construction. It was stated that the casing must be made of the finest Ordnance Bronze to withstand a blow back, which, from what I can gather, they suffered quite often !! They too had a large diameter cap held down by springs as a safety device.

If it is of any consolation we are now into double figure bubbler destruction !!   :)

Cheers Grum.

Graham (& others),

Excuse me saying so but destroying flash-back arrestors one after the other, is the WRONG  approach to 'solve' flash-back problems!

It should be obvious (and logical!) that the very first thing which MUST be done is to ELIMINATE the source or reason for the 'flash-backs' in the first place!
Period.

It is perfectly possible to make backfire-free set-ups, where flash-back arrestors are only needed as safety devices, in case of malfunctioning parts or equipment.

Further, it is also perfectly possible to make electrolysers which can withstand the full force of any flashback!

Graham, I would like to point out that the spring-loaded top would NOT save the electrolyser from blowing to pieces!
I can give you two examples of WHY that is so:

One is an experiment done by Dr William Rhodes, the inventor of the multi-cell electrolysis,
the other is my own, repeated experiments, proving the same point!

Here is a quote from a document written by Dr William Rhodes:

It is noted that any sharp metallic whisker in the storage atmosphere could cause an explosion, similar to the dangers of storing high percentage hydrogen peroxide,
where the entire contents can burst into high pressure steam with disastrous results, just because somewhere in the interior someone forgot to round off a sharp edge.

On the other hand, these mixed gases were ignited repeatedly in a 4 liter container of 16 gage iron with flat ends and spark plug. 
The only evidence of ignition was a sharp click, with no damage to the vessel.


A recent report revealed one experimenter was wounded with shrapnel from such explosion.         
The only way this might happen is from accumulation in an unusually thin container, or one made from an easily fractured plastic.

However, a duplication of the original multicell unit was constructed of 3/4" Plexiglas with an interior volume of 8 liters.   
Half of this was filled with electrolyte leaving 4 liters for foam and gas accumulation, (Identical to the volume of the iron container).
The multicell had a 2.5" diameter rupturable diaphragm of food grade Saran wrap.                             

The unit was set on a stand in the open and ignited.                                                                                   

The resultant pop splintered the case into many pieces which were all deposited within a radius of 5 feet around the stand.                                                                                                                                         

The diaphragm remained intact.


Such indicated the sonic wave front was responsible instead of pressure which would have ruptured the diaphragm.

These tests allowed us to design electrolyzer tanks of materials and thicknesses that could contain flashbacks.                                                                                                                                                           

Viewing the permanent Plexiglas multicell in operation, electrolyte foam rises upward, but at maximum elevation allows sufficient gas space above.

Therefore no purpose is served with designs containing more gas than necessary for conduction out of the reservoir.   
Extrapolation of chart curves indicate a possible diesel type explosion as pressure approaches 400 psi.                                                                                                                                         
However, this is not conclusive.                                                                                                                 
Generation of such single ducted gases appears to be an event not found in nature, unless lightening produces them.

(For more details, see attached article.)

The second example is my own experience.

My first 120 cell electrolyser – without a top - was used for a large number of explosion tests!
It was simply placed in a large, open plastic box on the floor so any electrolyte spill was contained.
Every time someone who was interested in water fuel visited me, I was showing them the power of 'Brown's Gas'!

The “test” was simple.
Applied power to the electrolyser for just a few seconds, bubbles formed on the entire top surface,
then turned the power off.
Lit a match and threw it on the top of the electrolyser!
DEAFENING explosions with just a few bubbles, NO pressure involved!
You probably can't imagine the effect of this 'demo' on most people!

The point of the story is that after a few of those 'explosions', the 15 mm thick Acrylic casing was cracking MANY places and started leaking electrolyte (but it did not explode).
All that with an OPEN top.

So yes, SHOCKWAVES, NOT pressure which does the damage!

Cheers,
Les Banki
   

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Dear Les.

Thank you for taking the time to explain what actually happens, it is appreciated.

I am most familiar with our, what I see now as rather benign gasses!!   :)

It would seem that the utmost care and attention to detail should be employed in the cell construction.

For me, Perspex, or Plexiglass, as most know it would be a bad idea as it is very brittle. I would use Polycarbonate and perhaps a large concrete bunker !!   :)

Thanks again.

Cheers Graham.


---------------------------
Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
Group: Guest
Interesting read:

http://www.rexresearch.com/spiros/spiros.htm

Surely there's something in there we have missed.
   
Group: Guest
Hi  Mike, Grum, and Alex

Thanks for the encouragement .  Alex , the machinist had trouble slitting the acrylic , so we had to alter the design a smigen. . Bottom line , when ever your building something,  you have never built before , things will go wrong .  The lesson is test in 5 secound intervals . Dont let the gas build up . The positive of our disaster is no one got hurt and our respect and knowledge grew  very quickly. Amatures have to get lucky every so often . .

We should have the outer case finished in about 10 days

Onwards and upwards

Pete B
   
Group: Guest
I would use Polycarbonate and perhaps a large concrete bunker !!   :)
Cheers Graham.

Graham,

While Polycarbonate is 'bullet proof' (and expensive!), if you decide to use it, keep in mind that it is NOT
compatible with KOH so you need to use NaOH with it.  (slightly less efficient)

The "concrete bunker" can be substituted with a tight fitting, 2 mm thick steel 'skin' all around the electrolyser! ;D

Cheers,
Les Banki
   
Group: Guest
Dear Les,

Thank You again for sharing your idea:
The "concrete bunker" can be substituted with a tight fitting, 2 mm thick steel 'skin' all around the electrolyser!

I certainly will apply and adapt this 2 mm thick steel "skin" on my electrolyser, for safety reasons.
   
Group: Guest
All,

Nano-pulse system notes....

Judging by the feed-back I am getting, there seem to be a lot of confusion and misunderstandings about the nano-pulse electrolysis method.

First of all, many readers don't seem to understand WHY the nano-pulse method will only work with single cells but NOT with multi-cell arrangements!!

Yet, the reason is clearly explained in the original Japanese article: “A novel method of hydrogen generation by water electrolysis using an ultra-short-pulse power supply”

The other, MAJOR problem seems to be the failure to understand the operating principle of the IES (Inductive Energy Storage) unit used in the nano-pulse set-up.

All those who have read the Indian and Japanese articles (and others) on the nano-pulse subject know that NO explanation was given as to the operation of the IES unit!!

In my opinion, that is the most likely cause of failed experiments by several researchers!

I have put some technical explanations in a document format, mainly to retain text formatting and emphasis which, regrettably, is mostly lost in Forum posts!

Note also that I have made a MAJOR design change by completely eliminating the SIThy or its substitute.

More about all this in the “nano-pulse system technical details.doc”.

Cheers,
Les Banki
   

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Looking back at my old publications I find that I wrote a paper in 2010 about pulse charging of lead-acid batteries.  This made the point that a very fast pulse would supply electric charge to the electrodes of energy value determined by the electrical capacitance, and having nothing to do with the chemical reactions since they won't have got going.  Then when the chemistry does get going you get charging that could be OU.  Thought it might be of interest to this thread.

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Looking back at my old publications I find that I wrote a paper in 2010 about pulse charging of lead-acid batteries.
This is classic desulphating procedure.

Did you observe any desulphating processes? You were probably not looking and were not using dodgy batteries.
   
Group: Guest
Hello All,

see enclosed pictures of my test-setup for making the grooves for the Electrolyser tank.
   
Group: Guest
Electrolyser Tank assembly test-setup.
« Last Edit: 2014-12-03, 19:35:39 by kampen72 »
   
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Alex,

I hope you don't mind if I make some comments about your last two posts.

On your illustration/drawing of the electrolyser, I see you are still repeating the same error which I have already pointed out to you, TWICE!

The ERROR is that you have placed the two grooved sides on the TOP of the grooved bottom!
In that case, you will have 138 OPEN groove ends on BOTH sides, which will render the filling system completely USELESS and could have a SERIOUS current leakage!

On the groove machining method, please note that in order to assure PERFECT line-up of the grooves between the two sides and the bottom,
the grooves SHOULD be machined on a SINGLE piece of Acrylic (or whatever you are using) and then cut into 3 pieces.

This may not apply if a PRECISION CNC machine is used for cutting the grooves.

Note, however, that the size 500 x 500 mm Acrylic board indicated in my 'Electrolyser instruction.doc' only applies if vacuum clamping of the work piece is used.
Otherwise, the board(s) must be larger in order to accommodate the clamps.
After all the grooves have been cut, the excess must be cut off and the pieces trimmed to correct sizes.

Some of you who read this may already know that I have designed/made a dedicated, semi-automatic “groove cutting machine” (GCM), somewhat similar to a CNC router/milling machine.
It has been operational for about 6 months.

(It will be pulled apart later in order to paint it since MDF is sensitive to moisture/water!)

Further, I also designed/made an automatic vacuum work holding system for this machine. 
There are NO clamps, NO bolts, NO holes in the work table!
Work piece is fitted & released in seconds!

For those who may be interested, I have attached a few photos of the GCM, showing some details.
Points to note about this machine are:

The X-axis drive and the saw motors are both reversible, 12V DC, 100W, 2930 RPM.
Even with a very slow feed, a 100W motor is unable to cut 5 mm deep grooves in a single cut!

I cut only 1.25mm deep in each 'pass', thus 4 'passes' to get 5mm deep groves.
(Note here that to cut in a single pass would require a motor of at least 500-800W rating!)

I use a rack & pinion drive system for the Y-axis, operated by a small (but very powerful!) geared motor (50:1) which can deliver a massive 50kg torque at 55RPM
(see photo – GCM_Y-axis_drive_motor.jpg)

This 12V DC motor is also reversible and I designed/made the control logic and reversing circuits for all the motors.
The 30A speed controller (PWM) is commercially made since one cannot even buy the parts for the price of a ready made one!

The switch mode power supply is 12V/29A, supplying everything, including several LED strip lights on the machine.

There is also a digital counter for the number of grooves.

The 'pitch' of the X-axis lead-screw (12mm diameter SS all-tread) is 1.75mm, thus 2 turns for 3.5mm spacing between groove centres

The vacuum is adjustable and it is set to about 23 in/Hg, with a Hysteresis (also adjustable) of about 3 in/Hg.
Thus, the vacuum pump only operates for a few seconds every 3-4 minutes.

It took me about 18 months to design/make this machine and I dare say it may not be for everyone!

Cheers,
Les Banki

 

   
Group: Guest

Thanks for the remark, Les.
I noticed the error, my mistake in assembling bottom and sidewalls and Yes I will change it following your instructions.

About your GCM, what can I say, it's a remarkable piece of engineering and machine work.

My COMPLIMENTS for your work.

You are a talented man in electronics, engineering and constructions.
 
Greetings, Alex
   
Group: Guest
Hi Alex,

Thank you for the compliments but you are also doing excellent mechanical work yourself!

You have the right idea to fit the slitting saw assembly to your milling machine.
(It seems to be a very LARGE machine!  Is it CNC equipped?)

I hope others will 'pick-up' on this also.

Further, if such a slitting saw assembly is fitted to a suitable CNC machine and the programming is done correctly, cutting the grooves will be a trivial task, “a piece of cake”!

Which leads me to another point:

Some readers may wonder WHY I decided to go to all that trouble and expense to design/make the GCM!?
No, it wasn't only an engineering challenge!

Initially, I requested quotes from companies using CNC machines of various types and sizes.

But guess what! 
The quotes were between $1200 – 1500!!!
For a piece of Acrylic with 138 grooves!

I was thoroughly disgusted, nay - pissed off - with the GREED so I decided to make my own machine!

(I do have a fair size milling machine which I fitted out with a 3-axis digital readout a few years ago but it is MANUAL (no power feed) and it is not big enough for this job!)

So there you have it....

Cheers,
Les Banki
   

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Bloody hell les! You have got some mad skills. I'm in awe.
   

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kampen72 and JimBoot have said it well!

Ditto

Incredible work Les!


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
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@ All,

about making the grooves: very expensive
Yes, I can confirm that. Done this job by a commercial CNC-workshop is incredible expensive.
Requested quotes from 3 different companies the price is between € 1300 up to 1500, Yes that's the price in euro (at my place The Netherlands)
Update: that's the reason I decided to make it by myself with a abandoned CNC-machine.

@ Les,
Now we succeed in perfect fitting/adapting the slitting-saw and Yes this unit is CNC equipped, works fantastic now for this job.
During CNC-slitting machine is making the grooves we can drink coffee. O0

Greetings, Alex

« Last Edit: 2014-12-07, 18:55:49 by kampen72 »
   
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Requested quotes from 3 different companies the price is between € 1300 up to 1500, Yes that's the price in euro (at my place The Netherlands)

Do you have a nearby University with a department of Mechanical Engineering? If so, they will have an extensive workshop and they may do it for relatively little, a few pints of beer or even nothing at all. You might get a second year student interested in co-operating.
   
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@ All,

this is the setup  for the CNC machine (for making the grooves)
Adapting  METABO OFE-738 (600W) with the circular cutting-saw.
Cutting saw-blade HSS with center hole 6mm outside diam. 60mm with 60 teeth, blade thickness 0.55mm.
Spindel speed 10.000, feed rate moving-speed 350 mm per/min.
Board HDPE-1000 Green, thikness 20 mm, size 550 x 550 mm

Updated:
See below pictures showing the details.


« Last Edit: 2014-12-12, 19:15:44 by kampen72 »
   
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Good Day All

First off I would like to say thanks to Peter for the PCB boards, they arrived here this week O0

OK, I have studied the two boards and notice that the design has provisions for the 2nd MOSFET (SITHy substitute) on the XFRMR board.

Now I see that Les Banki has made a further revision to the design eliminating the 2nd MOSFET completely (revision #8).

My questions:
 
Has anyone begun to assemble this PCB yet?

Should the board be modified to eliminate the 2nd MOSFET as in the Les Banki revision #8?

Regarding the XFRMR, should be fly-back style.....  any ideas on final step-up voltage?  N1/N2=?

Any suggestions?

Take care, peace
lost_bro
   
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Good Day All

First off I would like to say thanks to Peter for the PCB boards, they arrived here this week O0

OK, I have studied the two boards and notice that the design has provisions for the 2nd MOSFET (SITHy substitute) on the XFRMR board.

Now I see that Les Banki has made a further revision to the design eliminating the 2nd MOSFET completely (revision #8).

My questions:
 
Has anyone begun to assemble this PCB yet?

Should the board be modified to eliminate the 2nd MOSFET as in the Les Banki revision #8?

Regarding the XFRMR, should be fly-back style.....  any ideas on final step-up voltage?  N1/N2=?

Any suggestions?

Take care, peace
lost_bro

Hi 'lost_bro'

You can still use those boards (despite the design changes) with some minor modifications. 
Just follow the circuit diagram 'nanopup8.sch.pdf' but also look at the pcb pattern of the new, single board.

Note that the MOSFET (Q1) is a HV type (1500V) as the expected fly-back pulse amplitude is around 1000V or more!
Also note that there is NO "step-up" in the transformer!
The turns ratio is 1:1.


I hope this helps....

Cheers,
Les Banki
   
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