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Author Topic: Tesla Patent 464666  (Read 14053 times)
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Discussion concerning Tesla patent 464666


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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

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One issue I see is that patent 464666 is supposedly Tesla's solution to a problem, he has patented a better electric motor and yet I have heard no debate concerning what the real problem is in a standard AC induction motor that Tesla hoped to solve.
Thus we are trying to find possible solutions to a problem which is still undefined which seems a little backward in my opinion. Mind you I have no problem with backwards however I think we should ask the question what is it Tesla was trying to do here?. What was the real problem with standard AC induction motors that Tesla was trying to solve, why did he do this, what was the problem and what was his solution?.

AC
« Last Edit: 2014-11-08, 19:54:04 by Allcanadian »


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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One issue I see is that patent 464666 is supposedly Tesla's solution to a problem, he has patented a better electric motor and yet I have heard no debate concerning what the real problem is in a standard AC induction motor that Tesla hoped to solve.
Thus we are trying to find possible solutions to a problem which is still undefined which seems a little backward in my opinion. Mind you I have no problem with backwards however I think we should ask the question what is it Tesla was trying to do here?. What was the real problem with standard AC induction motors that Tesla was trying to solve, why did he do this, what was the problem and what was his solution?.

AC

As I see it the problem was the impossibly large capacitors needed to create the 90 and 270 degree phase shifts for the intermediate poles in the stator (the 180 degree pole is easy, just reverse the coil connection).  His solution was to use a step-up transformer to drive those intermediate poles at higher voltage and lower current, hence requiring many more turns (of finer wire) on those poles.  That made the system more practical from the capacitor procurement angle.  Instead of using an external transformer he built the transformer into the machine by winding many turns secondaries on the 0 and 180 degree poles thus using those as transformers.  There is no OU here and the input impedance is not purely reactive, it's just a classical AC induction motor with a clever way of energizing the intermediate poles using smaller capacitors.

Smudge
   
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As I see it the problem was the impossibly large capacitors needed to create the 90 and 270 degree phase shifts for the intermediate poles in the stator

That was my take as well.

Can we conclude with the advent of modern high density capacitors, all this additional wiring is no longer necessary for a motor of the same performance characteristics?
   

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Or the "shaded pole" method of producing the
rotating magnetic field.

We are talking single phase correct?

Nikola didn't have many tools to work with in his
day but he still accomplished near miracles.


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For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
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I didn't begin this with the aim of trying to determine Tesla's motives.  I started this with the desire to open a new door.  It seems that each time I make an appearance bringing what I feel is a fresh new look at something old, it gets more or less derailed before it can begin. I am not interested in the question of the "real problem" regarding induction motors.  If this is the direction that the majority are interested in then I am done here, because its not my interest.  In the other thread I made it pretty clear what my aim is, I am making a case for a self excited generator (and much much more) which in my "opinion" is hidden in the design under discussion.  It has taken me some time to come to these conclusions, conclusions which are supported by experimentation.  I know what I have accomplished, and even if my point of view is flawed, it  doesn't take away from the results which speak for themselves.  I am not looking for peer review, I have no immediate desire to have my efforts stomped on by individuals who either won't or aren't in the position to build to my standard.

Those who want to debate can do so without me, those who want to contemplate the ifs and maybe experience something that they haven't before.....I welcome the company. 


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I didn't begin this with the aim of trying to determine Tesla's motives.  I started this with the desire to open a new door.  It seems that each time I make an appearance bringing what I feel is a fresh new look at something old, it gets more or less derailed before it can begin. I am not interested in the question of the "real problem" regarding induction motors.  If this is the direction that the majority are interested in then I am done here, because its not my interest.  In the other thread I made it pretty clear what my aim is, I am making a case for a self excited generator (and much much more) which in my "opinion" is hidden in the design under discussion.  It has taken me some time to come to these conclusions, conclusions which are supported by experimentation.  I know what I have accomplished, and even if my point of view is flawed, it  doesn't take away from the results which speak for themselves.  I am not looking for peer review, I have no immediate desire to have my efforts stomped on by individuals who either won't or aren't in the position to build to my standard.

Those who want to debate can do so without me, those who want to contemplate the ifs and maybe experience something that they haven't before.....I welcome the company. 


Regards

Hi Erfinder,

Please don't be offended by those who say what they believe just because it doesn't fit with your view.  You said in a an earlier post
Quote
I am suggesting that my use of the phrase "self excited" encompasses a heretofore overlooked torque producing mechanism, which when properly practiced, results in a motor force which operates in the direction of rotation.
I am suggesting a real mechanism which yields acceleration when a generator is placed under load.
I am suggesting a generator which drops the motors consumption when placed under load. 
I am suggesting a generator when loaded mechanically, the consumption increases as is customary, however, the generator action increases, this despite the fact that the device is decelerating.

Well all those things are possible and if you review my other posts you will see that I too look for things that have been missed.  I firmly believe that time delay in the magnetic domain can produce what you desire and this is backed up by theory and math.  Also the use of capacitors shunted across coils can produce phase shifts in the magnetic domain that can be used to advantage.  There is a lack of awareness on how to express what goes on in the magnetic domain under dynamic conditions and that is what is missing from current theory.  It is with that new background of dynamic magnetic domain analysis that I reached the view that this Tesla patent does not offer anything of value.  What interests me more are those patents that actually claim abnormal behavior, then finding the true reason behind why they do so.  It is quite easy to demonstrate that the atomic dipoles responsible for magnetism in ferromagnetic materials can both give and receive energy to an external load and this happens in electrical machines but is generally ignored because the net result over each cycle is zero, they claw back as much energy as they give out.  Devices that produce anomalous energy break this reciprocity and that is what I look for.  I don't see that in the Tesla patent.

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The other thing I see in this device that has not got focus is the core saturation and the interplay of the coil core stems and what the interaction is on the ring of the core.

@GK

That's one of the reasons I asked @TinMan if he could do a test on his triple decker way before @Erfinder showed up.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2666.msg42812#msg42812

But it seems that device is now benched and he is doing some other things.

@Erfinder

If possible, can you migrate your posts to the new thread and empty out your posts from the Critical Thinking thread. I will do the same and if others can also do this, move your content and empty the post, this thread should continue on as it was.

Oh, and maybe think about resampling (smaller) posted images to a size more practical for forum perusal. That patent diagram you posted was a duzzy of a size.

Then I have to ask you about this post;
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2672.msg42922#msg42922

I think you need to rephrase it so we can really understand what you are saying because right now, the post leaves us too open for our own comprehension. What I mean is, if you talk about a self-excited generator is this the 12F coils, then say so, otherwise we think you are talking about a generator connected to the Tesla motor shaft and it makes things very confusing.

************************
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Previously posted on another thread.


@Erfibaby

Like @GK already said, good to see you come out of the Guest Zone and squeeze our brains a bit.

OK' I'll bite the hook. If I did not know who Tesla was and saw this patent diagram for the first time, with my present brain manners, I would say there are three possibilities.

Possibility 1:

Shaft driven motor turns the rotor magnets and produces output on the six E coils. The twelve F coils are in a staggered series arrangement to produce NNSSNNSSNNSS polarities close to the magnet rotor, that when connected to the capacitor simply maintain an added motive force to work against the expected generator cogging thus reducing the required HP on the shaft for the same output.

Possibility 2:

The twelves F coils and the capacitor are the actual motive force that requires only to start her up to a given RPM and then she runs on her own by looping the produced energy in the 12 coils and reusing it to create continued motive force. Outputs are the six E coils plus output on the shaft to turn a fan or a smaller generator.

Possibility 3:

Input is into the six E coils, where the 12 F coils, as in P1, assist in producing more torque where both forces are paralleled by the shaft to turn a generator or other device thus producing more output hp for the same feed power.

In every instance it is a bit more complicated then this because the 6 rotor magnets span three coils so there is an interplay of effects between the 12 F coils, where I consider these to be wound having equal lengths of wire so the six F coils that cover the six E coils will have the same length but not the same number of turns keeping the overall inductance of the 12 F coils to remain the same.

That's it in a nutshell.

wattsup



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@Erfinder
I think you understand as well as anyone that getting everyone here on the same page is kind of like herding cats.

As well our styles are a little different and I like the lead up approach. Which is present the concept, debate a brief history, how it came to be and the fundamentals then jump into where we could take it. I like this because it has a certain flow or direction of progression which is easier to follow because this is generally how our mind works. We fall back on experience to understand the present then move forward through our creativity.

In any case I started this thread for you and it's up to you were you want to take it.

AC


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@GK

That's one of the reasons I asked @TinMan if he could do a test on his triple decker way before @Erfinder showed up.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2666.msg42812#msg42812



I will be putting it back together this weekend wattsup(as that generator has a nasty bite lol),and i'll shoot a video showing what i get from the core's.

@ Erfinder
Like on IAEC-im all ear's,and you know I'm right into this sort of thing-->remember the L.A.G?,a motor generator combo that increased output torque and decreased P/in when a load was drawn from the generator side of the device.
http://iaec.forumco.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=193

Oh,and there was one more that no one ever got to see -->pictured below.Results withheld until a later date. O0


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Hello Tinman,

I remember the LAG, it was one of the coolest experimental devices I had seen.  The only thing that didn't sit well with me was your of the SG circuit to for driving the device, there were times during your disclosure where I was desirous of sharing what I was experiencing with the same topology using a PWM drive circuit, but stopped sharing after my poor placement in the build off.  The point I was making was missed, and as such all motivation to share went out the window.  

I wish I could say that you originated the concept, however, that wouldn't be honest of me.  You do champion the idea though.  One of the few who has worked with this concept in the open.  As you know this is a Tesla concept, he demonstrated the basic layout it in AC systems, but we can assume that he had systems built around this topology which were pulse width modulated machines.  I met a German who had his own company which specialized in alternative approaches, and he had built a very large version of the machine in question, he knew what he was doing, the machine operated at around 98% efficiency as a generator, an incredible accomplishment.  He refused to discuss its performance when it was driven as a pulsed motor generator, but didn't mind teasing....I don't blame him.  After studying Tesla's machines, and this German individual, I built two machines.  The first was an out-runner style, the results motivated me to do another, but then the well ran dry and I placed it on hold.  Here's a pic of the rewound stator, see attachment.  Soon after I came to the conclusion that retrofitting makes no sense if the general understanding is lacking...sooooo....I invested money in building models which would help me understand.

I don't see things the way I used to, the way many do.  I finally see that there is more going on in a common pulse motor then many of us have ever thought possible.  There are checks and balances which are working all the time in the background, happenings that we in our ignorance conclude we have no influence over.  Some of these things are so subtle that we down play their significance.  From this came the idea that the presently held view of magnetism is childish.  Even the more advanced ideas being discussed do little or nothing for the layman.  Owing to our lack of vision with relation to magnetism, we aren't in the position to do more than what the text books tell us that it can do with it.  

Adam's stated (believe him or not) that these pulsed DC machines when configured properly will generate insane potentials, he went on to state that the higher the input voltage the higher these potentials would become, and that the relationship is not linear.  Don't ask me for quotes, I don't have them anymore, I don't need them anyway, the results speak for themselves.  Like you, I don't post the good stuff, but will say that a standard pulse motor driven at  European mains, can be made to output potentials in excess of 50,000 volts.  Impedance in all of its embodiment's is your friend, when generating these insane potentials impedance is the only thing keeping you and death from shaking hands.  Impedance is a variable parameter, parameter variation is the mechanism through which we can get the energy out.  The reactive cross section of the circuit must transition abruptly from high to low, and back to high, this has been my experience anyway.    The circuit in which this all takes  place which includes the motor must be reactive.  When you look at your motor circuit and see a Tesla coil in its operation not in its appearance, you are well on your way.....me thinks....Hysteresis losses become a joke when the circuit becomes what I consider standing wave resonant, what I mean here is magnetism moves through specific channels, he iron itself represents one type which is frozen into material, we can simulate any channel we want, think Cymatics, these are the standing wave structures we are looking for.

While the majority are dancing around the latest presentation that may or may not pan out as folks hope and dream, I am sharing a few ideas with you about how I see a system, specifically my system.  In my opinion, all the power we would ever need literally permeates every DC biased Magneto electric machine.  Multiply the induced voltage times the inducing field of the rotor.  I see a special case LC circuit, and calculate as such.  Most will frown at that idea, and I smile at them for frowning.  


Regards
   

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Massive amount of nuggets here:
Quote
Adam's stated (believe him or not) that these pulsed DC machines when configured properly will generate insane potentials, he went on to state that the higher the input voltage the higher these potentials would become, and that the relationship is not linear.  Don't ask me for quotes, I don't have them anymore, I don't need them anyway, the results speak for themselves.  Like you, I don't post the good stuff, but will say that a standard pulse motor driven at  European mains, can be made to output potentials in excess of 50,000 volts.  Impedance in all of its embodiment's is your friend, when generating these insane potentials impedance is the only thing keeping you and death from shaking hands.  Impedance is a variable parameter, parameter variation is the mechanism through which we can get the energy out.  The reactive cross section of the circuit must transition abruptly from high to low, and back to high, this has been my experience anyway.    The circuit in which this all takes  place which includes the motor must be reactive.  When you look at your motor circuit and see a Tesla coil in its operation not in its appearance, you are well on your way.....me thinks....Hysteresis losses become a joke when the circuit becomes what I consider standing wave resonant, what I mean here is magnetism moves through specific channels, the iron itself represents one type which is frozen into material, we can simulate any channel we want, think Cymatics, these are the standing wave structures we are looking for.

Quote
Ferro resonance
was another.
Quote
Uncovering the missing secrets of magnetism
by Ken Wheeler is another.
And Magnetic handbook is another.
The TPU is a ferro resonant device using space in conjuction with iron. The TPU also exhibits cymatics, i.e. thumping.


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Massive amount of nuggets here: was another. by Ken Wheeler is another.
And Magnetic handbook is another.
The TPU is a ferro resonant device using space in conjuction with iron. The TPU also exhibits cymatics, i.e. thumping.


What's up Giantkiller,

Ken Wheeler is brilliant, however, he is not speaking to me, the layman, and because of this its next to impossible for me to apply his understanding to what I am doing.  I don't make it my business to comprehend that which isn't prepared in such a manner that it can be easily comprehended, and more importantly "apply it" call this a filter if you will. It is my hope that in time, Ken will write a book with proper illustrations for dummies like myself, and build a pulsed motor generator and connect its operations to his understanding of the forces and fields.  Until these two things are done, I will sleep on his book as Edgar Casey is reported to have done when he wanted to understand something.  

I like you was on fire for the TPU, but as time past, I gave up on it.  When I am finally able to generate a real "Rotating Magnetic Field" and not the "simulation of such", and can do this effortlessly, repeatedly, that event marks the time when I can drop the rotor, and return to solid state concepts like the TPU.  It is my opinion that the solid state devices like the TPU have stagnated because something fundamental is lacking, many have come really close to how I think now really early on in that movement.  Unfortunately nothing ever came of their ideas.  At some point it seemed like everyone "knew" that the key ingredient was a rotating magnetic field, so they built devices where coils were pulsed in sequence, simulating a rotating field.  Then followed heterodyning, a concept which led to more complex ideas concerning  wave mixing and synthesis, these ideas were definite steps in the right direction, however, they were introduced at the wrong time in my opinion.  As none of the TPU investigators were really interested in how this solid state concept embodies all that is taking place in a rotor based system, the lessons which are taught in rotor based systems weren't picked up by the majority.

Ferroresonance, heterodyning, cymatics, these are our building blocks.  The idea is to pluck a string of a given length, it generates a decaying standing wave whose amplitude and frequency decreases over time... (nodes don't move) its interaction with its environment and itself results in the manifestation of the impedance negating phenomena called ferroresonance.  Ferroresonance must be called into existence at the  moment of greatest system opposition to changes in current, and negated during the moment of greatest system opposition changes in potential.  The concept of heterodyning is more complex than the simple blending of two frequencies in a system where damped oscillations are produced.  The damped wave is the fingerprint of infinity in my opinion, here we have a sine wave equal to every frequency and amplitude reaching from your machines fundamental into infinity, the funny thing here is the coil itself encompasses the same idea, owing to how the capacitance, inductance, and resistance are distributed.  I am of the opinion that the square wave doesn't really exist, according to Fourier this waveform is a synthesis of an infinite series of properly mixed sine waves of proper amplitude and frequency.  We see the truth of this when we pulse the coil and note the output waveform, the damped wave.    The fundamental is governed by the pole count and speed of the rotor, the damped wave has a special relation to the fundamental, one could say that they are sympathetic, I feel they are... The infinite series of sines is injected into the fundamental at the point of maximum opposition to changes in "induced" current.  The damped infinite series of sines should injected into the fundamental at the point of maximum opposition to changes in "induced" potential.  The latter is reaction to the prior, pulse width regulation of the prior determains when and where the latter will manifest in the induced wave.  

Lots to consider so I'll stop ranting now.  I realize that most will argue that what I am saying is wrong, and I am OK with this, but I will not debate, through my understanding, right or wrong, I am able to do what I say I can do.


Regards
   
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Lots to consider so I'll stop ranting now.  I realize that most will argue that what I am saying is wrong, and I am OK with this, but I will not debate, through my understanding, right or wrong, I am able to do what I say I can do.

No, no, please continue.  This is making very good sense and falls inline with what I have studied from Dale Pond very nicely.
   
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No, no, please continue.  This is making very good sense and falls inline with what I have studied from Dale Pond very nicely.

Glad to read that my rant falls in line with what you have studied, that's not necessarily my objective, however, its good to know that we are operating on the same wavelength.  I want it to be clear that this is my view, my dogma, how I "presently" choose to see my and thereby explain and or describe my system in operation.  I have tried to see things like we are taught to see them and cannot.  My view right or wrong is the only one that makes sense to me, the only one which enables me to accomplish what I have accomplished.  For any of this to really make sense you have to experience what I experience as I experience it.  Attempts at assisting others in doing this in the past failed miserably, leaving one or the other with bad taste in their mouth, its difficult to ascertain who is to blame for this, I do accept responsibility for my actions in that regard.  So with that, I am just sharing things as I have experienced them.  As I mentioned I am glad that my rant falls in line with what you have studied, however I must say, in a tone as humble as I can make this in text form, it needs to do more than just fall in line with what you have read, it must fall in line with what you have experienced, and or are experiencing, on and off the bench.  

The question is concerning the patent, and how it represents more than what the author describes in the text.  The text focuses on one particular aspect, this is clear to all who have studied the document.  But as we all know, there is more going on beneath the surface of things.  I am suggesting that we look just under the surface, make minor changes to the topology, the first of which would be to migrate from a dynamo electric machine to a magneto electric machine, followed by switching from an AC supply to a DC supply, with that last modification, we should consider the introduction of the circuit controller for making and breaking the circuit the desired point of the induced wave.  By simply making these simple changes to the device we see that we are presented with a brand new machine.  Make those changes, and study the new machine.  See the magnifying transmitter embodied in a motor.


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Could you elaborate a bit more on the subtleties of a "dynamo electric machine" versus a "magneto electric machine" ?   I'm not clear on the distinction in this particular application.

As for switching to a DC supply, I think I see where you are going with this.  I might add, I purposely built some electronic switches that behave very similarly to mechanical switches and in this application I believe them to be appropriate.  The reason why stems from your earlier comment about the composition of DC current.  Should DC current actually be as you say (and I too think this is correct), a typical diode-based semiconductor by itself will not allow the full spectrum of the DC pulse to pass uninhibited.

Interesting discussion and you now have my mind racing.  I think a will conduct a few tests on the bench and see where this leads.

A magnifying transmitter embodied in a motor...    I wonder about a magnifying transmitter embodied in a special transformer.  This I shall have to examine.
   
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Could you elaborate a bit more on the subtleties of a "dynamo electric machine" versus a "magneto electric machine" ?   I'm not clear on the distinction in this particular application.

I find the use of the old terminology makes things easier to follow, the old school chose their terms carefully, as you would say, they said what they meant and meant what they said.  In a magneto we find permanent magnets in the armature, and in the dynamo we find the permanent magnets are replaced with electromagnets.  To the majority there is no difference, there is a huge difference, however, the difference is so subtle that it goes over our heads.  

As for switching to a DC supply, I think I see where you are going with this.  I might add, I purposely built some electronic switches that behave very similarly to mechanical switches and in this application I believe them to be appropriate.  The reason why stems from your earlier comment about the composition of DC current.  Should DC current actually be as you say (and I too think this is correct), a typical diode-based semiconductor by itself will not allow the full spectrum of the DC pulse to pass uninhibited.

In all actuality we don't have to switch to a DC supply doing so however, simplifies everything.  Doing so draws that line in the sand separating DC from AC as they manifest and or are made to manifest in our systems.  

Eventually I would like to completely eliminate the electronic switch, it is the weak link in the system.  It is the only component in the system which is alien to the system.  The switch is the catalyst, without it the desired transition between the two transmission methods cannot be made.  Its well known that Tesla came up with a method of conversion, this method enabled him to transition between transverse and longitudinal energy propagation.  The thing that fascinates me is that discussions concerning either of these is limited to large scale power distribution, no thought ever being given to the possibility that this concept is being demonstrated in the small scale, using normal motors and generators!  The switch can be replaced, but only when we have a perfect understanding of the field and its interaction with itself.  I feel this may have been a discovery that Tesla made, and would explain why he abruptly stopped patenting methods for switching.  

Interesting discussion and you now have my mind racing.  I think a will conduct a few tests on the bench and see where this leads.

A magnifying transmitter embodied in a motor...    I wonder about a magnifying transmitter embodied in a special transformer.  This I shall have to examine.

When your head starts hurting, then I have your attention.  A magnifying transmitter, "the concept" embodied in a motor, a motor which is in essence a motor-generator for there is no such thing as a motor in the true sense, for its a magneto electric machine when not biased by an extraterrestrial supply, extraterrestrial simply being a supply external to itself.  Look at the figure, the primary is present, the secondary tightly coupled to the primary is present, and the extra coil in series with the secondary is present.  Don't be so eager to jump to the transformer before you comprehend the motor, this was done before, and it led to us skipping valuable lessons.  Is it possible that the embodying of the magnifying transmitter concept into a magneto electric machine is not only an illustration of the universal applicability of the concept, but also revealing how the motor and generator functions embodied in the device can be in a word.....magnified?


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Try putting a coil around a magnet, or electromagnet, and apply pulsed DC of at least 2kv (very little current) to this coil.

You'll find that the magnetic field changes in an interesting way.

   

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Hello Tinman,

I remember the LAG, it was one of the coolest experimental devices I had seen.  The only thing that didn't sit well with me was your of the SG circuit to for driving the device, there were times during your disclosure where I was desirous of sharing what I was experiencing with the same topology using a PWM drive circuit, but stopped sharing after my poor placement in the build off.  The point I was making was missed, and as such all motivation to share went out the window.  

I wish I could say that you originated the concept, however, that wouldn't be honest of me.  You do champion the idea though.  One of the few who has worked with this concept in the open.  As you know this is a Tesla concept, he demonstrated the basic layout it in AC systems, but we can assume that he had systems built around this topology which were pulse width modulated machines.understanding is lacking...sooooo....I invested money in building models which would help me understand.
  


Regards

I have never really looked that far into Tesla's work. I know of the Tesla coil,and the fact that Tesla is the inventor of AC power. Other than this,i don't know a lot about his work. What i build is from my own head,and my own understandings through experimenting.The L.A.G workings is quite simple,but no one thus far can or has told me how they think it work's. Any generator can be made to work this way,but there are limit's applied by material. Most say that permanent magnets cant do useful work,and i say they are very wrong-->in fact,i can prove them wrong so very quickly O0. Some say that an electromagnet has the same properties as a permanent magnet,i say please show me the electric field around a permanent magnet?. Whats the difference between a coil being fed with AC as apposed to pulsed DC?,well an AC fed coil has an alternating current flow,where a pulsed DC coil has a Direct current flow(rising and falling in amplitude) with an alternating voltage potential. There are so many things said that are wrong-even by the best of them. And the only way to find the truth is through your own experimenting.Who here has seen a magnetic tank transformer?-->who knows what one is?.Dose any one know the resonant tank frequency of the electric and magnetic field?.

Another thing i found through experimenting is,while a steel ball(as an example)is attracted to say the north field of a PM,if another north field of another PM is bought close to that steel ball,the ball is repelled by both magnet's. O0


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OK now that we have all this like/dislike business out of the way, can we continue on CT, if it's not asking too much.

So maybe I can point in one specific direction that is coil pulsing by DC versus coil driving by AC (not @AC - hehehe).

The question is, can you define the exact differences between DC and AC pulsing of a coil. Start by defining what DC and AC potentials are, how they work, and how they exhibit different effects when applied to a primary coil of a transformer.

This is critical because this one simple method has been overblown to Saturn and back. This is critical because it will help explain why Tesla realized at the time that DC was not overly suitable for electric motors and transformers. This is critical because in those days when all there was in existence was DC, and, someone named Tesla saw it fit to think OOTB and go against the total mindset of the times, to be ridiculed by his own teachers saying such a thing is "impossible", to be flat out denied by Mr. DC himself, regardless, this one man persevered and single handedly changed the world.

He did in fact change the world, but what is the real impact of DC compared to AC? What is DC? What is AC? REALLY? 

The argument that DC is not suitable for use in motors and transformers is in my opinion unjustified.  I am of the opinion that since we have no real conception of how to work with the forces independent of one another, and yet still under the influence of one another, we cannot setup conditions which result in reduced to loss-less operation.

For a definition of the fundamental difference we need not look to each others opinions, we can open a book and inform ourselves of the accepted fundamental differences.  As your question is connected to Tesla, we will be hard pressed to find a suitable answer in the textbooks.  The question should be rephrased so that the potential answer can be related to Tesla's perspective, as it was presented in his patent and lectures.

@Erfinder mentioned something in his Patent thread, but it does not go deep enough.

In my own defense, until you experience my world through my eyes, you are not justified in saying how deep a comment or statement I make is or isn't.  Please don't take offense to this, I do not mean to offend you in any way.

The reason I am playing this game of tell me first is because in such discussions we absolutely need someone from the EE standpoint to provide the traditional answer so we can then build up a contrasting dialog. You can answer this question in one sentence, or you can take 1 page to answer it, it all depends on how deep you want to go. I am not asking you or implying to you that you will become the spokesperson for Standard EE. You are simply a reference source.

If you are looking for an EE perspective then you will need to invite an EE to the discussion.   Like you I read the books, studied the laws, and find that they have their place.  I do not challenge the laws, but on the same note, I have learned that it is not beneficial to me in the long run to limit myself by them either.

Let's take AC for example, 110 VAC applied to a transformer primary DOES WHAT to make the changes inside the primary that can be conveyed to the secondary. We are working with these coils, DC, AC, pulsed, but what does it really do inside our coils. This we do all day long, pulse, but what does it mean for the coil? So for AC, you have a hot lead and a neutral lead. You connect them to your primary so explain to us what exactly happens in the primary.

This ONE effect is the prime subject that everyone has to be 1000% proficient in realizing what is going on in our coils, because when we go about winding coils, choosing ready made coils, pulsing coils, looking for "field collapse", talking about BEMF/CEMF, FEMF (my term only - SC related), flyback, designing new coil topologies and all these subsets of the pulsing act are WHAT in real physical terms.

You see, someone far far away creates a generator system that uses falling water, that turns a turbine, that turns a rotor inside a stator, that produces electricity, that is fed to your house for you to use in your experiments. All that part of the process is 100% physical activity and 100% of your end of the experiment is also physical activity. Physical activities produce physical results, not etheric results. Your physical results may be as simple as using the output of your experimental device to turn a fan, which is a physical result.

Not really sure how to contribute to what you are asking here.

Like in Teslas' days where everyone was happy go lucky and totally intellectually satisfied with the DC world of The Great Edison, someone came up and started questioning the norm. Those questions led to some very critical thinking that just happened to change the world. Does not take much but it does require EFFORT and in Teslas' case, he took it to the limits. But I don't even think Tesla knew the true answers for the above, or, if he did, he never published anything that went into it deep enough because he realized academia was going in a totally different direction but since their direction would never change Teslas' direction, he must have rationalized that he is better spending his time on the real devices and not put any time on the theoretical rationalizations of the then academia. Academia of the day took his invention and ran with it, gave it some empirical data points then set some basic AC formulas and from there, we are here today with the same half empty book of electrical reality. The most extraordinary phenomena of physical activity, of physical atomic attributes that produce the greatest forces humanity has ever had the pleasure of utilizing to change our state of existence for the better, and, after 150 years, we still have the same reason for all this change being relegated to invisible fields, flux, and magnetism. All that reality we witness everyday is simply reasoned out to be the result of a total mysterious and unprovable entity that we will never see, touch or feel. Where have you ever read Tesla discussing the merits of the electron. Tesla was a realist, he called his electricity "potential". He did not invent the word electron that led to the word electricity. if it was up to Tesla, he would have invented the word "Potentiatron" instead of "electron" and he would have responsibly designated it as being a "transitory" nomenclature "until man found out what the potential really was". But no, the academia could never accept such a conditional form of knowledge. It has to be the electron and it has to be electricity and it has to be caused by flux and it has to originate from magnetism. That is the base line of Standard academia since 150 years. Deviate from that and you will be stepping on some pretty high placed toes.

Some may think this question is so elementary that all that is required is a simple 1st Grade explanation, but let's not play that game. Let's go to the other extreme. Give me your explanations based on it being the most advanced, most knowledgeable most highest level of learning possible to provide the answer. No hyperphysics.com links required.

wattsup



Again I am not sure how to aid here, my journey begins and ends with concrete questions, we have to remember how to ask real questions and ask them.  The proper questions come when you have an idea of what it is that you are looking for.  Ultimately I am looking for the energy that we are told exists in locations which are too small for us to do anything with.  Taking responsibility for my ignorance, and here I am not referring to academic ignorance, I began asking questions that only experiment and meditation could answer and found that the energy that I am looking for is present in what could be considered as unlimited amounts in the most simple of apparatus, locked in the gray zone found between the two energy storage mechanisms of inductance and capacitance for better or worse. 


Regards

   
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Lenz......the name is thrown around in these circles like Tesla's.  Lenz effect is to be avoided at all cost is the mantra around the camp fire, the idea burned into the minds of all, Lenz is not our enemy.  He was a man, a man who made an observation, he shared his view, and it became dogma.  All are fascinated by concepts which give us the feeling that we are enabled to cheat Lenz out of his position of governance. These methods are usually radically different design typologies from the conventional.  Its  a tragedy to me that very few seem interested entertaining the idea, and or possibility, that Lenz has no real influence on a circuit designed to utilize the effects associated with the circuits self-induction.  Its well established that the self induction is associated with the production of potentials, a generator, one which operates to the advantage of one skilled in the arts.  Its well established that the inductance of a coil opposes the starting, stopping, and changing of current.  From this its clear that you have three specific instances where voltage will be induced, three instances when the self induction will be available for use.  Self induction manifests in AC and DC circuits, however it is in the latter where we (I) am most interested in it.

To neutralize the effects of self induction my teacher, our teacher introduced a capacitance into the circuit.  Ignorant he was not, and as we see, when we know where to look, we find his comprehension was vast, he instructs us that the capacitor could be replaced with a circuit of coils, whose inner winding potentials were higher than normal......(I choose my words carefully, I am not trying to quote the text....please try to comprehend what I am trying to say before you try and correct me.....)  In such a system of coils the self induction is higher.  A system designed to generate maximum potential difference in opposition to changes in current, will behave as a system which experiences maximum opposition to changes in those potentials, we need only observe the induced to know when and where either will take place.  Cause and Effect are simultaneous, this is how I see resonance.


Regards
   

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Lenz's Law comes up every year with fresh minds eager to solve the question of how to break the law so as to create a generator that creates energy, or a motor that runs itself.  As long as you are using a magnetic field to induce current (i.e. Faraday Induction), Lenz's Law applies. 

If you want to avoid Lenz's Law then induce current by some other means.
   
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Hello Erfinder
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Ken Wheeler is brilliant, however, he is not speaking to me, the layman, and because of this its next to impossible for me to apply his understanding to what I am doing.  I don't make it my business to comprehend that which isn't prepared in such a manner that it can be easily comprehended, and more importantly "apply it" call this a filter if you will. It is my hope that in time, Ken will write a book with proper illustrations for dummies like myself, and build a pulsed motor generator and connect its operations to his understanding of the forces and fields.  Until these two things are done, I will sleep on his book as Edgar Casey is reported to have done when he wanted to understand something.  

Ken is a pretty nice fellow in my opinion and I talked with him for an hour or so a while back. I also like his book however I don't think he liked it very much when I said he should try to explain his theories in his own words versus the Dollard like terminology and explanations he is using because in my opinion it confuses the issue. It was actually kind of weird that we were both trying to say exactly the same thing using different terminology.

In a nutshell... our conception of the Primary Fields has been turned inside out and while we may think we believe there is something external to our circuit our mind will not let us truly accept it for what it is. My solution to this problem was to develop a new learning process based on psychology I call looping. I put everything I have learned to the side and started over from the beginning observing everything as if I had never seen it before without preconceived notions or bias. If in my mind I ever fall back on my former bias I loop back to the beginning and start over repeating as necessary. It is very hard but it will train our mind to think for itself.

Everything we want to know begins and ends with the singular statement below, reverse the problem working from the outside in then observe, comprehend and copy.

"There is no energy in matter other than that received from the environment.”  – Nikola Tesla

Sorry for the disruption :)
AC
« Last Edit: 2014-11-18, 15:02:53 by Allcanadian »


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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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How Len'z law could be broken if the essence is whatever you have current flowing you have Lenz law applied ?
   
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