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Author Topic: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759  (Read 53306 times)

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Smudge,

i have some toroid's available which i could use, not sure about the 50 Ohm line, guess i have to test severall dual lines for impedance.

Thanks,   regards Itsu
   

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I am pretty sure that if you use say 0.5 mm copper wire with enamel insulation, use two strands and wind them into a twisted pair (I use a drill to do that) you end up with something close to 50 ohms.  Don't use plastic insulation because then the impedance comes out much higher.  You will need a significant length of twisted pair so as to put on the toroid core a significant number of turns (the number you would use if you were making a transformer primary to work at your frequency).

Smudge
   

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Smudge,

i was already working on a toroid when i saw your latest update, guess i have to redo it, but i have some first results in the video below.

Toroid used is a nanoperm one (i have ferrite too if that is better) and the wire used is a twisted pair cat 5 ethernet wire of about 4.5m long (30 turns).
As i measured the impedance to be 120 Ohm (plastic insulation  :) ) i toke 2 pairs and paralleled them for a measured 55 Ohm now.
 
I used a standalone FG (via a 220/5V transformer) to isolate the signal, but it causes bad syncing of the scope signals.
When using 2 caps to ground on the toroid output i loose the 180° phase shift of the signals, so i left them out.

When not in resonance i have a 180° phase shift between tp1 and tp2 points signals, and this shifts to an "in phase" situation at the severall resonance points.

Components used besides the toroid and the Arie coils are 2x 47nF caps (were your 50nF caps are in the schematic) 2x 10M Ohm and 2x 1M Ohm resistors  
Please let me know what you think.

Video here:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7FcJJ1sswY&feature=youtu.be




Regards Itsu
« Last Edit: 2015-05-11, 11:26:57 by Itsu »
   

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Hi Itsu,

Just watched your video.  First thing to say is my 50nF caps were chosen for the arbitrary transmission line I modeled which has significant capacitance between the "wires" (in my line the "wires" are the series inductors).  Your line is completely different so you need to use much smaller values (like Arie's 10pF).  Second to get the balanced input across the line there is no connection at the other end of the line and that is different to Arie's circuit.  The other end of my line just floats (the 10M resistors are not needed but I have to put them in otherwise the Spice simulation doesn't work).  I see you have a connection to it but maybe that is there just for the 10M resistors.  If you have the Arie connection at the other end then try removing it.

The balun you constructed is designed for an unbalanced (one side grounded) input so you might use your grounded signal source and eliminate the 50/60Hz noise.  The balun converts that grounded input to an output that is balanced wrt ground and that gives you the 180 degree phase shift between the two output wires, even though the input has one wire grounded.  Your nanoperm core should be OK at these frequencies (I think  :-\ ).  I see no reason why your paralleled 120 ohm wires should not work OK.  As for the number of turns, if you could measure the inductance for that number of turns we could tell whether or not you need more.  I would check out the balun first by using a grounded input then shunting its output with 50 (or 55) ohms and scope each wire there to see that the output is now balanced wrt ground.  You should see half the input voltage on each wire and of course the 180 degree phase shift.  If you don't get that 180 degrees then that could indicate you need more turns on the core.

My gut feeling is you will get much different results with smaller coupling capacitors between the balun and the transmission line. 

Smudge
   

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Smudge,  thanks again, i will concentrate first on the toroid.

I distributed the turns around the nanoperm core so they were evenly spaced along the whole circumference and used a 56 Ohm resistor across the output where i measured the both wires with my yellow/blue probes referenced to ground.
There was an amplitude unbalance, see first screenshot.

So i used another toroid from ferrite and more turns of similar cat 5 wire pairs.
This measured 3.92mH for each wire (the nanoperm toroid measured 54.8mH)
But also this ferrite toroid shows (even more) the amplitude unbalance, see screenshot 2.

We do have the almost 180° out of phase condition, so that's ok.

Video here:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4vc23FFXYI&feature=youtu.be


Any idea what is causing this amplitude unbalance?

By the way, when increasing the FG frequency there are some points where the amplitudes get equal, but then the phase shifts are less  :o  see screenshot 3   when at 13MHz

Regards itsu
« Last Edit: 2015-05-11, 23:00:30 by Itsu »
   

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Hi Itsu,

It seems the unbalance is related to the inductance, the nonoperm is better because of its higher inductance.  Perhaps more turns are indicated.  I guess you are also running into the frequency limit for both the nanoperm and the ferrite and that could explain the weird effects you are getting at the higher frequencies.  Your best result is showing the balun is working to some extent, and that would give you something interesting when connected to the Arie set-up.  You might also find better results with single twisted pair enameled wire.

Smudge
   
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Hi Itsu,

It seems the unbalance is related to the inductance, the nonoperm is better because of its higher inductance.  Perhaps more turns are indicated.  I guess you are also running into the frequency limit for both the nanoperm and the ferrite and that could explain the weird effects you are getting at the higher frequencies.  Your best result is showing the balun is working to some extent, and that would give you something interesting when connected to the Arie set-up.  You might also find better results with single twisted pair enameled wire.

Smudge

Itsu and Smudge,

I think the balun problem is that the output should be measured differentially which will give the desired results.  I have included an example built with a 1" od power ferrite which is not the best material for this application but I had it on hand. The wire is drill twisted 26 guage polyurethane coated and is wound in 20 turns on the core. A 47 ohm load resistor is across the balanced output.

I used the Math channel to display the differential between the balanced outputs as measured by CH2 (blu) and CH3 (cyan).  CH1 (yel) is the single ended generator input. The frequencies used are 1MHz, 5MHz, 10MHz, and 15MHz.  Also included is a pix of the balun.

The response is fairly good over the range tested but one can see the slight phase shift between the input and balanced output.

partzman

   

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Smudge,

thanks, i will see what i can do.
(See bottom of this post.)


partzman,

thanks for joining in, i see that your balanced outputs  CH2 (blu) and CH3 (cyan) also have unequal amplitudes like mine.
Not sure what you mean by: "I used the Math channel to display the differential between the balanced outputs", did you substract (-) both channels?
Anyway, i suspect we need both balanced signals in an even amplitude and 180° phase shift for inputting into Aries setup, not a differentiated signal.



I was looking on the net for a 1:1 balun and found many, like the one mentioned here (see picture 1):
http://ea4eoz.blogspot.nl/2012/09/build-your-own-hf-balun.html

So i created that one, see picture 2  and found that it seems to work ok, see screenshot 3

I now have a balanced output with equal amplitude and 180° phase shift (blue and yellow,  purple is input from the FG)
This i will use as input for my Arie coil using 10pF capacitors (i will remove the 10M Ohm resistors).


Thanks all,   regards Itsu
   

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Good find Itsu, much better than my balun  :-[ .  Good luck with the Arie work.

Smudge
   
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[snip]

partzman,

thanks for joining in, i see that your balanced outputs  CH2 (blu) and CH3 (cyan) also have unequal amplitudes like mine.
Not sure what you mean by: "I used the Math channel to display the differential between the balanced outputs", did you substract (-) both channels?
Anyway, i suspect we need both balanced signals in an even amplitude and 180° phase shift for inputting into Aries setup, not a differentiated signal.

[snip]

Thanks all,   regards Itsu


Itsu,

Yes, I used the Math channel to calculate CH2-CH3.  I also understand your requirement of equal and 180 degrees out of phase wrt ground for Arie setup.  Good luck with your tests.

Edit- Placed response outside quote!

partzman
« Last Edit: 2015-05-13, 13:15:33 by partzman »
   

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This is as i have my circuit set up right now (see picture 1).
I had to use 10nF capacitors as the suggested 10pF capacitors would not let any signal through (10pF @ 1MHz = 15K Ohm reactance).

I have some resonance points at which we have mostly 180° phase shifts between the TP1 and TP2, but also some other shifts.
First resonance point can be seen in the screenshot 1 @ 823 KHz
TP1 = yellow (compared to ground)
TP2 = Blue   (compared to ground)
TP3 = purple (compared to ground)

Further resonance points are at (KHz):
1893 180° phase shift
2963 180° phase shift
4313  90° phase shift
5613  90° phase shift

The biggest peak is at 31.153MHz  :D at which we are at 0° phase shift. but good amplitudes, see screenshot 2
(FG was set at 5Vpp input @ 50 Ohm all the time).


Question; where/how to pick up the output signal to make some input/output calculations.

Thanks,  regards Itsu
   
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This is as i have my circuit set up right now (see picture 1).
I had to use 10nF capacitors as the suggested 10pF capacitors would not let any signal through (10pF @ 1MHz = 15K Ohm reactance).

I have some resonance points at which we have mostly 180° phase shifts between the TP1 and TP2, but also some other shifts.
First resonance point can be seen in the screenshot 1 @ 823 KHz
TP1 = yellow (compared to ground)
TP2 = Blue   (compared to ground)
TP3 = purple (compared to ground)

Further resonance points are at (KHz):
1893 180° phase shift
2963 180° phase shift
4313  90° phase shift
5613  90° phase shift

The biggest peak is at 31.153MHz  :D at which we are at 0° phase shift. but good amplitudes, see screenshot 2
(FG was set at 5Vpp input @ 50 Ohm all the time).


Question; where/how to pick up the output signal to make some input/output calculations.

Thanks,  regards Itsu

Itsu,

Well, nobody else has responded to your question of where to pick up energy measurements so I'll offer some suggestions.  If your inputs are 180 degrees out-of-phase, a single load resistor matching the network impedance could be connected to the now open ends of your red and green coils.  The output voltages would have to be measured differentially possibly using hi resistance dividers as Smudge suggested if your scope probe capacitance is relatively high.  The frequency chosen for these measurements ideally should be at least 1/2 wavelength for your setup to be in the spirit of Arie's patent.

To measure the high peak output at 31.153MHz, a load could be connected to the open output of each winding and connected to ground.  This connection would be required due to the lack of phase shift as shown in your last scope shot.  This measurement would not meet Arie's patent requirement of opposing signals in adjacent wires but it would be interesting to see what results you get however!

partzman

 
   

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Thanks partzman,

i did monitor the open ends of the coils with my scope, and found we also there have the 180° phase difference, but only when NOT at resonance!
When approaching the resonance points, it peaks and shifts to "in phase".
I did not use a 56 Ohm load resistor or the voltage dividers (10M / 1M) yet, but will look into that later today.

No special effects found around the by Arie mentioned 8.5MHz.

Regards Itsu 
   

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My reading of the Arie patent is that the OU occurs at the standing wave voltage peaks where the thin dielectric between the two wires is at maximum stress.  I do not understand why this should be but if it is to be tested than it is important to get the maximum voltage there.  I originally thought that the Arie circuit was designed to have two different resonant circuits that were made to coincide in frequency.  Then each one has its own magnification factor and the overall voltage magnification could be the product of the two Q's.  Your three wire balun suggests to me a way of achieving this by winding a third wire onto the large Arie coil.  See attached image.  The signal source drives a series LC circuit (green wire) so you get voltage magnification, the voltage across the L is much larger than the driving voltage.  Now to get a 180 degree voltage across the other transmission line wire we have a third wire (shown black) that couples inductively to L and is connected to give that 180 degree phase.  This 180 degree voltage is then connected to the other transmission line (red) wire.  Might be worth a try.

Smudge
   

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Smudge,

thanks for your thoughts, i am missing the "attached image" though  :)

Regards Itsu
   

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Woops!  Forgot to attach the image.  Problem now is I am away from home for the next two weeks and the image is on my home computer.  Essentially it shows a third winding on your Arie coil with same number of turns so that it will get the same voltage induced in it.  Then with one of your double conductors in series with a capacitor as a series resonant circuit you can use the extra winding to get a 180 degree shifted voltage identical to that across the L simply by the polarity of the connection to it.  And then feed this to the other conductor.

Smudge
   
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@Smudge
Quote
My reading of the Arie patent is that the OU occurs at the standing wave voltage peaks where the thin dielectric between the two wires is at maximum stress.  I do not understand why this should be but if it is to be tested than it is important to get the maximum voltage there.  I originally thought that the Arie circuit was designed to have two different resonant circuits that were made to coincide in frequency.  Then each one has its own magnification factor and the overall voltage magnification could be the product of the two Q's.  Your three wire balun suggests to me a way of achieving this by winding a third wire onto the large Arie coil.  See attached image.  The signal source drives a series LC circuit (green wire) so you get voltage magnification, the voltage across the L is much larger than the driving voltage.  Now to get a 180 degree voltage across the other transmission line wire we have a third wire (shown black) that couples inductively to L and is connected to give that 180 degree phase.  This 180 degree voltage is then connected to the other transmission line (red) wire.  Might be worth a try.

That sounds similar to the non-ferrous magnet circuit which attracts non-ferrous metals such as aluminum and copper. It relies on what is called travelling magnetism whereby a one turn coil, an inner aluminum washer on an iron core in this case, initially opposes the expanding magnetic field from an outer high turn coil. Lenz law dictates that the one turn coil must oppose the expanding magnetic field thus the high turn primary coil initially has a higher field strength than that in the one turn coil. The phase differential which is in fact a field strength differential causes non-ferrous materials with eddy currents induced in them to follow the field change thus we have a non-ferrous magnet of sorts.

It's kind of funny that all those people using shorted coils in their motor/gens never really understood what was happening when the effect is really quite simple.

AC


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Woops!  Forgot to attach the image.  Problem now is I am away from home for the next two weeks and the image is on my home computer.  Essentially it shows a third winding on your Arie coil with same number of turns so that it will get the same voltage induced in it.  Then with one of your double conductors in series with a capacitor as a series resonant circuit you can use the extra winding to get a 180 degree shifted voltage identical to that across the L simply by the polarity of the connection to it.  And then feed this to the other conductor.

Smudge

Thanks Smudge,  "i get the picture"  :)

Not sure to try that as it involved major rebuilding (rewiring) of my coils and it moves further away from the Arie patent.
I will try to experiment further with the setup i have right now as it is very close to the specs layed down by the patent, there should be some truth in it i guess.


Regards Itsu
   

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@Smudge
That sounds similar to the non-ferrous magnet circuit which attracts non-ferrous metals such as aluminum and copper. It relies on what is called travelling magnetism whereby a one turn coil, an inner aluminum washer on an iron core in this case, initially opposes the expanding magnetic field from an outer high turn coil. Lenz law dictates that the one turn coil must oppose the expanding magnetic field thus the high turn primary coil initially has a higher field strength than that in the one turn coil. The phase differential which is in fact a field strength differential causes non-ferrous materials with eddy currents induced in them to follow the field change thus we have a non-ferrous magnet of sorts.

It's kind of funny that all those people using shorted coils in their motor/gens never really understood what was happening when the effect is really quite simple.

AC
Eddy currents induced into a body turns that body into a magnet (electromagnet) and any magnet within a non-uniform field will endure a translatory force.  The direction of that force depends upon the polarity of the electromagnet relative to the non-uniformity.  This can then appear as a repulsive force (as in the case of say copper filings  against an AC electromagnet) or an attractive force, but the latter requires two AC driven coils having different diameters, and the attracting region is quite small.  The repulsion effect is well known and made use of at recycling plants to cause non-ferrous metal to jump off a conveyor belt.  The attract effect is little known, but it could be used in gold prospecting to get away from the old panning method.  It surprises me that no one has yet produced a solar powered gold magnet.  Or even something like the recycling jumper that causes the gold particles in the pan to jump.

Smudge
   

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Buy me some coffee
I finally got round to finishing my Arie Coil.

Diameter 14cm length 27.5cm

Each coil approx, 2 coils GREEN & RED enamelled wire 1mm diameter
LCR test @ 10KHz
L=830.6uH
R=1.2475 OHM
Z=52.20 OHM
Q=41.875

Interwinding capacitance 14.22nF

I setup as per the diagram below, coils are wired in anti phase, see dot on inductor in diagram.

With this setup i am getting a couple of frequencies that i get 180 Degree phase shift across the 2 caps

Cyan = 1 Ohm Resistor for current monitoring
Yellow = driven winding capacitance
Magenta = open winding capacitance

Looks like i have the current 180 degrees out of phase with the driven capacitance voltage, i should have scoped the Sig gen, so hopefully tomorrow night.
Not quiet sure how to proceed with power measurements yet, i will see what the phase of the Sig gen is in relation to these other scoped signals.
   

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Buy me some coffee
OK i added my 4th scope chan to monitor the phase of the sig gen voltage, it's in phase with my current so i am consuming a small amount of real power to drive the coils.

Note the Blue & Magenta scoped waves are on top of each other and the same amplitude so the blue is hidding the magenta.

the interesting thing is that i have yellow on the green coils cap which is 180 degree out of phase with the current, and i have magenta in phase with the current on the other cap.

Now if i were to use as in the patent the 2 caps for an output i would get a sinewave which is the sum of the yellow & magenta that is in phase with the current as in my purple math chan, i wonder what would happen if i try drawing a current from this as the yellow component's current is 180 degree out of phase with the magenta phases current yet i have managed to sum their voltages.

I tried connecting an Avramenko plug to the open red coils end which has a 500 ohm load and i read 400mV which equates to a power of 320uW, i did not see any increase in power consumption, although 320uW is small i suppose so not necessarily a valid test.

Looks like my input power is 1.07ma x 1.78V = 1.9mW
   

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Hi Peter,

Nice going, could it be that your probes (1M ohm / 10pF?) are loading the probed points to much like mentioned by Smudge here:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2897.msg48394#msg48394

Perhaps you could try the 1:10 divider to see if things change.

Regards Itsu
   

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Buy me some coffee
That's a good point Itsu, i want to change my 1 Ohm current sense resistor to 10 Ohm to give me better resolution, i think i will try 2 100pf caps so maybe my probes wont be such a problem.
I want to try a high value resistor across the caps as a slight load, i want to know where the current comes from and what it does to the signal source.

Cheers
Peter
   

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Buy me a beer
BUMP

Thank you Itsu, this is the same one that I had before and very related to what I am doing.

Regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Mike,

thanks for the BUMP,  i see i still have some questions, like why i never could obtain the 180° phase shift on the signals of the 2 coils etc.

I have rewind my bifilar coil and allthough i am still not satisfied with the result i will repeat some tests.

This bonded bifilar wire (1mm thick) is a nightmare to work with.

Below again the general setup (Fig. 2) of the patent, Fig. 3b is the one being replicated.
(what is this Vin thingy at C and D? Just the 220V AC in?  Is 10 an ordinary FG?)

Regards Itsu
   
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