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Author Topic: Mookie's Electrolyser Accelerator  (Read 59936 times)
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I've had time over Christmas to take another look at some things and do a bit of further study while I wait for the weather to warm up a tad.

If you haven't already looked at this, then I urge anyone interested in what might be happening in Mookie's electrolyser and/or cavitation to take another look at the info provided by this link that Chet provided earlier in this thread.

http://physics.open.ac.uk/~swebb/briefguide.htm

There is a lot of information in the above paper that I personally find intriguing, if not fascinating.  So much can be happening in a pulsed cell that it may well be some time before science has nailed it all.

Incidentally, I've finally got around to emailing Chris Eckman, of 'Plasma Orbital Expansion of the Electrons in Water' paper, fame.  I've detailed some of my concerns on his paper as diplomatically as I'm capable of - the points of concern that I've already highlighted earlier in this thread. Whether or not I'll get a reply is, of course, another matter entirely.
   
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I have been looking at my cell in the dark for flashes of light and I have not been able to see any. Mookie, do you see flashes of light in your cell?
I am thinking may be, the intermolecular forces are weakened by the vibration so the isolated H2O molecule becomes easier to split.
   
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I have been looking at my cell in the dark for flashes of light and I have not been able to see any. Mookie, do you see flashes of light in your cell?
I am thinking may be, the intermolecular forces are weakened by the vibration so the isolated H2O molecule becomes easier to split.

Yaro, you will see from that link in my last post that certain conditions need to be met for sonoluminescence. I really recommend that you print it off and take time to study it, as it is really informative. When I read information like that it hits home just how much we are yet to learn and understand on this subject. And it seems every few years someone or some team fit another piece of the puzzle in place - or at least forward a new theory to explain things. Very interesting stuff.

By all accounts, the luminescence observed in Dave Lawton's cells does not come about by acoustics, as luminescence was evident after the cell was switched off. That is why I believe that Lawton's luminescence was due to plasma discharges within the pores of the mineral coating on his electrodes.
   
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I was previously able to determine that without vibration using magnetic means,
nothing in the way of acceleration occurs in my set up. I confirmed this with 3 tests:

 - By immersing both the electromagnet and plate assembly into a solution in direct contact with each other,
   without a barrier or gap between them, nothing other than magnetic attraction occurs while the cell is powered.
   That was somewhat predictable in that the magnet holds the plates firmly in place, not allowing them to vibrate.
   There is no effect on electrolysis. If anything, the direct contact just completes the circuit.

 - I have run tests with the plates vibrating by purely mechanical (non magnetic) means while the cell was powered.
   Other than the standing wave-rippling effect of the solution, nothing out of the ordinary occurs.
   These were good vibration tests producing, both similar, as well as much larger waves than as seen in the vid clip.

 - With only the electromagnet operating without the cell powered, there are only standing waves..no bubbles.

If this is cativation, I have been unable to create that effect without use of an electromagnet during electrolysis.
As for sonoluminescence, the "streamers" described in the sonoluminescence link are much in evidence in my set up.
The bubbles continuously and randomly erupt, or eject, from the plates (much like those clips we've all seen of solar flares)
then follow the magnetic field lines until such time as they escape the cell. This has always been most remarkable to me.
They are not affected by a second external magnet which makes it even less understandable. That particular article,
as it is written, brings back the possibility of resonance. But until such time as my demo is replicated all I can offer
are my own observations.

I am one to look at my own understanding and explanation of things with a great deal of scepticism ..always the first in line
to put them to the test to disprove them. To be quite frank, I cant explain this acceleration with my own conventional
understanding of things, so what I am left with to account for it is my earlier explanation, and am no further ahead
in being able to disprove anything to anyone, including myself. But as to how seriously I regard this "discovery",
I somehow doubt that I will soon be standing in Stockholm explaining this friggin' thing after hearing the words
" And this year's Nobel Prize winner ..is Mookie".

Mookie

                                                                
« Last Edit: 2011-01-31, 14:55:39 by Mookie »
   
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.

I was previously able to determine that without vibration using magnetic means,
nothing in the way of acceleration occurs in my set up. I confirmed this with 3 tests:

 - By immersing both the electromagnet and plate assembly into a solution in direct contact with each other,
   without a barrier or gap between them, nothing other than magnetic attraction occurs while the cell is powered.
   That was somewhat predictable in that the magnet holds the plates firmly in place, not allowing them to vibrate.
   There is no effect on electrolysis. If anything, the direct contact just completes the circuit.

Agreed, I too would expect nothing to happen in the above scenario. Yet there would surely still be pulsing magnetic fields throughout the surrounding solution, which to my mind, and contrary to your thinking, does tend to discredit the magnetic field itself as being a major component of the phenomenon.

Quote
- I have run tests with the plates vibrating by purely mechanical (non magnetic) means while the cell was powered.
   Other than the standing wave-rippling effect of the solution, nothing out of the ordinary occurs.
   These were good vibration tests producing, both similar, as well as much larger waves than as seen in the vid clip.

This is the key test really, but it is not necessarily conclusive because as you have shown, a certain energy level has to be achieved when using the EM before the effect is seen. So it could be that either this energy level was not achieved or other variables such as frequency were not comparable.

Quote
- With only the electromagnet operating without the cell powered, there are only standing waves..no bubbles.

This test tends to suggest that cavitation of the water solution is not the factor, but rather that the pressure waves created due to the oscillating plates are acting upon the bubbles of hydrogen and oxygen.  These gas bubbles would then be stressed to a point wherby that might implode as in cavitation and hence produce further reactions leading to the production of other radicals like H2O2, which are not seen in standard electrolysis.

Quote
If this is cativation, I have been unable to create that effect without use of an electromagnet during electrolysis.
As for sonoluminescence, the "streamers" described in the sonoluminescence link are much in evidence in my set up.
The bubbles continuously and randomly erupt, or eject, from the plates (much like those clips we've all seen of solar flares)
then follow the magnetic field lines until such time as they escape the cell. This has always been most remarkable to me.
They are not affected by a second external magnet which makes it even less understandable. That particular article,
as it is written, brings back the possibility of resonance. But until such time as my demo is replicated all I can offer
are my own observations.

I personally think that you may simply not have hit upon the right set of varaibles when trying to achieve the effect without the electromagnet, and I'm still convinced that the magnetic field plays no part in the effect other than causing the plates to vibrate in the first place. With regards to the streamers you see, these can be caused by the low pressure areas within the fluid, and have nothing to do with magnetic fields. This would fall in line with compression and rarefaction of the fluid due to sonic waves travelling throughout the solution.

Have you ever done this experiment with a cell whereby the plates cannot oscillate?  I ask as you would still have the pulsing magnetic field, just no physical vibration of the plates.  

Quote
I am one to look at my own understanding and explanation of things with a great deal of scepticism ..always the first in line
to put them to the test to disprove them. To be quite frank, I cant explain this acceleration with my own conventional
understanding of things, so what I am left with to account for it is my earlier explanation, and am no further ahead
in being able to disprove anything to anyone, including myself. But as to how seriously I regard this "discovery",
I somehow doubt that I will soon be standing in Stockholm explaining this friggin' thing after hearing the words
" And this year's Nobel Prize winner ..is Mookie".

                                                                 ......................................

As for those that also build their own cells, I see no reason why this acceleration cant be replicated with a tube cell.
I do not build tube cells, as I like to see as much as what occurs (and am blessed with poor welding skills).

If you envision the set up in the vid ..the magnetic field created by the DC current-flow between the plates
runs exactly along the same field lines as in the AC electromagnet. That's what makes it work.

If one were to wind the full length of the outer tube with standard covered wire they would create a solenoid.
If that solenoid was DC powered, very little, if anything would result other than a weak static magnetic field.
If it was AC powered, a switching (N/S) magnetic field would be created, but again, little would happen
as these magnetic fields are both relatively weak without a permeable core. I would think that this has been tried before.
Using 300 series s.s. would make this a simple air core solenoid...so nothing dramatic should really be expected to happen.

By using 400 series s.s. for the tubes, the outer tube would now become a hollow core electromagnet.
By powering the tube cell with DC and the solenoid with AC, one would create the same condition as in the vid
..just a different configuration by removing the spacers, except for at one end, to allow for the inner tube to vibrate.

I have not done this myself, but would venture to say that the results would be the same. Not claiming it, just proposing it.
Nothing unsafe about a set up like this even in KOH. Having a voltage regulator on hand is always nice.

I will do this myself in future, but anyone reading this is welcome to look into it.
At the very least it would be an inexpensive project if anyone sees merit in it.
..but perhaps I've been spending too much time in the sun.

Mookie

http://img.youtube.com/vi/G9Glw3BUTAQ/0.jpg

.


I know I'm at odds with you on this, but I just don't see water being influenced in this way by a magnetic field.  I'm still strongly of the opinion that it is all related to the physical properties of the oscillating plates.  Remember Ohmasa seemed to be achieving the same thing as yourself from a mechanism oscillating the solution within a cell, and without any magnetic influence.  http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Ohmasa_Gas_by_Japan_Techno_Co.,_Ltd.

I see the sonic waves acting as a catalyst to standard electrolysis that induce the resulting H2 and O2 gases to implode, rather than any kind of acceleration being down to electron avalanche, which as you know, I personally don't see as being in anyway scientifically sound.

The great thing about all this is the mystery... whatever will we do when we know exactly what is happening and what the key contributing factors are?  :)  

   

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Posts: 5
Something just occurred to me!

Farrah, I know you are not convinced of the magnetic field being a factor here, but as I was reading some of your earlier posts re: the second magnetic field generated by the plates and considering the 'right (or left) hand rule, I suddenly recalled something that I've seen before. It may or may not be related, and at the risk of sounding idiotic, I'll toss it in for your consideration... and/or maybe mookie is still looking in.

A one point (several years ago) in my earlier exposure to this 'field' of study I recall seeing some info regarding the interaction of TWO PULSED MAGNETIC FIELDS at 90 Deg. angles to one another (in an inverted "T" shape) creating some strange, anomalous effects! At the time, I essentially dismissed what they were talking about due to a lack of any sort of substantiation...But I must admit the theory was fairly intriguing... and here now again, we find mookie's set-up WOULD indeed be producing that very thing, wouldn't it? The plates themselves creating a vertical magnetic field, and the electro-magnet producing a field in the horizontal plane at the midpoint (bloc wall) of the other judging by the video. And he's exhausted his ability to explain the anomalous results...

I haven't yet found that information again, but I will keep digging. As I recall, though, the theory behind what they were claiming was that anomalous effects were observed at the junction point of the two magnetic fields and were due to the stress induced by the magnetic fields attempting to align themselves to one another (both shear and radial). However, I do believe they were using a very high frequency on their coil type electro-magnets(?). That one bit of data stuck, but not much else. I'll send you links if I can find them again and you are interested....

In your research have you ever run across anything of that nature?
Could stresses of that nature provide enough of a disruption, confusion, or stress in the molecular bonds of the water wherein the current passing through the electrolyte would then be rendered much more effective?

I know that magnetic fields themselves are not well defined or understood, but there has to be an explanation for this effect and it does appear that mookie is evolving hho in his setup (by his admission) vs. the different variation of gas in say the Ohmasa mechanical type. This could be fairly easy (at least on my limited 'mind-bench') to test by manually mounting two strong neo's in very close proximity to one another (trying various different relationships) and seeing if any effects show up in different locations within their combined field of interaction perhaps just by using a small wire size electrode and anode.

It's a half-cocked, crazy speculation, but the light went on and I thought I'd share it anyway. (If for no other reason than to be of entertainment value to the discussion... ;D)

groundhog

Addendum:

After considering and doing some more digging on the above I found the quote below for your consideration:
Quote
The product of pole strength and- magnetic length>(the distance between its poles) of a bar magnet gives its magnetic moment (M).

Vr ; i.e.. Magnetic moment (M) = m X 2/: = 2m/.

, ... This is a vector quantity. Its direction is along the axial line of the magnet from south to north. It is measured in Ampere - metre2 or Am2.

If we consider the magnetic vector quantity as calculated above... is it possible that we might be seeing an increased electrolysis due to an increase in the medium's current density caused by the magnetic forces present, ie (magnetic moments, vector, and torque)? Would we necessarily create a greater current draw from the power source during this process, or would the magnetic field provide the additional current density? How could this be measured with a pulsing field?

Still digging...
« Last Edit: 2011-01-10, 17:09:59 by groundhog »


---------------------------
"The biggest barrier to finding the truth is the presupposition that you've already got it!"
   
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Posts: 3373
GH
As Mookie said in an earlier post ,your above observations Sound like what Grumpy has been saying,and he [Mookie] suspects this could be a valid speculation.

Chet
PS,Mookie still reads and comments here,as he knows we keep no secrets,And really are all about open source.
   
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Quote
If we consider the magnetic vector quantity as calculated above... is it possible that we might be seeing an increased electrolysis due to an increase in the medium's current density caused by the magnetic forces present, ie (magnetic moments, vector, and torque)? Would we necessarily create a greater current draw from the power source during this process, or would the magnetic field provide the additional current density? How could this be measured with a pulsing field?


Not really sure there is any real value in this line of thought as any increase in current within the fluid would also be experienced by the supply current, and everything would still obey Faraday's Laws.  So yes, just like adding an electrolyte, if magnetic interactions did somehow lower the resistance of the fluid, then more current would be drawn from the power supply but the gas evolving would still be directly proportional to the current.  Only if the voltage to initiate electrolysis is somehow reduced would we see any effective gain in gas output for any given power.  Faraday's Laws would still be in effect, but electrolysis would require less power in terms of V x I, as we could operate at a lower V.
   
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I saw you referenced a bunch of my fogger vids. If you want a weird experiment to do close fogger off in room of house and watch the torch flame change. I believe this is due to electrons being ripped off and the water is being staged or primed as Stanley puts it. I'd like to make some Rodin coils to add to it next.
   
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DO NOT ADD ELECTROLYTES TO COLD FOG GENERATORS IT DESTROYS THE DISK QUICKLY

after revisiting and learning a lil more I recommend tear transformer from switchmode power supply like a computer and driving it with a 200watt or so audio amplifier using computer tone gen program. I think you will be happy with results.Stan used pwm to drive a bifilar and trifilar makes more sense when you see specs on transformer and realize your using pwm to drive it.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9wP_WXLvYU[/youtube]

   
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