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Author Topic: Some "New" Observations  (Read 219005 times)
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Hi EM

Getting a DC current to flow with an AC input without electrical rectification is one of the keys to TPU operation.

This area alone is overdue for serious experimentation. I might add that one should look into parallel wires carrying AC current, as a mechanical "rectification" of motion does occur, IOW, you get a push-push or pull-pull between the wires with AC current, depending on how they are phased. Same is true for coils of wire e.g. electromagnets. Very basic, but I think this mechanical motion rectification was somehow used to create DC. Another area for investigation, perhaps.

Regarding your drawing, some form of "pole shading" or magnetic bias should probably  be used to allow the electrons to prefer a given direction rather than just go back and forth  thus producing only an AC output.

In one of the videos where the sound was blanked momentarily, SM said it was well known , or something like that.

Regards, ION


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a motionless homopolar generator

I used this term back in 2009...time goes by so fast

http://overunity.com/5662/faradays-paradox-experiment/msg206471/#msg206471
« Last Edit: 2015-08-02, 17:01:25 by Grumpy »
   
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ION,  thanks for the reminder, I'll add another horizontal loop.   Mechanical rectification is high up on my list, glad to see you mention it.


Results update.


So I bought a number of tape wound toroids, albeit, a bit smaller than Steven used in the TPU.  I placed one of these on one lead of the TPU coil I had, loosely winding about 4 turns, and the whole think seems to come alive, when I hit certain frequencies.  The small toroids saturate so quickly, I can see it on the scope.

The TPU is about 15 to 20 cm in diameter, with the inner core made of a steel band coiled up to make a toroid, then over it I placed lamp cord.  I tell you that thing "sings" at lots of frequencies as I tune the Signal Generator connected to it.   Last night I said, before I wind another one, let me probe the vibrating core, and put it on the scope, and I did.   I took two push pins and poked in between the windings, one on the outside and one on the inside of the TPU, and made contact with the steel band inside the TPU.  

When you "come in contact" with the core it's amazing.  All sorts of hash, and noise, but no DC yet, but it sure got me thinking now.

EM
« Last Edit: 2015-08-02, 18:36:54 by EMdevices »
   

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If I  were to try an arrangement of coils like that:

1. use heavy copper for the core wire
2. wind six sections of coils over the core, so that they can be pulsed sequentially
3. wind a coil over the entire arrangement for static DC (magnetic bias)

You can wind over a straight wire core and then bend it into a loop.

The idea being to "push" the electrons along the wire core.

Notice that the bias coil field is parallel to the core wire.  Applying a perpendicular force to the core, rotated from one end to the other, might induce a current in the core.
   
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Consider two large horizontal loops that are fed an AC signal of the same frequency. Depending on the phase of the signals sent into the loops, there will be either an attractive or a repulsive force for each half cycle of the AC waveform between the loops.

Put another way, there will be a push apart due to the positive half cycle and a push apart due to the negative half cycle of the AC waveform. Reverse the phase to one of the loops and instead of a push apart, the loops are in attraction.

This mechanical rectification of motion has always interested me, and is what allows Universal motors able to run in one direction despite the constantly reversing direction of current and voltage on AC mains.

Now vary the frequency of one loop just slightly off from the other and the effect will rotate the mechanical attraction or repulsion at the difference frequency around the loop.

Conversely one loop could be trimmed in length to change the standing wave into a rotating wave of attractions (or repulsions, depending on phasing) around the loop. This is a mechanical force that rotates around the loop if I am correct in visualizing all this.

Then all that may be needed is a way to have that mechanical motion translate into the motion of the electrons in the wire. Perhaps here enters  SM's garden hose analogy,lifting the hose to produce a "hill" in the hose, which forces the water out one end. So we need not really a wave, but a hill (lifting the hose, and moving the lifted area along the hose). The mechanical rectification creates the "hill". Ordinary wave motion will not do the job as it will just force the electrons into the hills and valleys, but not move them along the wire. Pure wave motion would require a third frequency to modulate the wave to move electrons around the loop.

The loops could also be coiled up into multi turn electromagnets, but not rigidly fixed solenoids. The multi turn wire loops must be free to flex around the circumference in order to create relative mechanical motion between the loops and the circulating physical hill or valley in the wire.

Just thinking out loud, have not tried this, but it seems to explain the use of the very floppy wires seen in the early video showing the core being cut apart. Also this idea seems to explain the thickness of the smaller units when the loops are multi turn and coiled within that structure, but free to move relative each other, perhaps suspended in a foam rubber surrounding.

I don't believe we will see the effect if our windings are tightly wound on rigid formers, which prevent the relative mechanical motion of the loops.

It would also explain the mechanical vibration felt by observers, and the slight gyroscopic force. Study ring resonators and it will become clearer.

This effect was probably noted in SM's dual voice coil research, where one of the voice coils came loose off the former allowing a degree of freedom against the other voice coil.

It also occurs to me that if the excitation AC signal is capacitively  or inductively coupled, the DC might be free to appear on the loops themselves, or possibly even between the loops if they remain electrically  iisolated from each other.

Remember, SM was an acoustics guy, experimenting with dual voice coil speakers in an attempt to get a spatial sound field out of a single speaker. This would require phase information differences between the coils as well as another degree of freedom  of motion (besides linear) in the piston of the loudspeaker

I wrote some of this up in the "Acoustic Resonator Hypothesis" a good while back but it was forgotten.
« Last Edit: 2015-08-03, 15:03:34 by ION »


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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
ION,  thanks for the reminder, I'll add another horizontal loop.   Mechanical rectification is high up on my list, glad to see you mention it.


Results update.


So I bought a number of tape wound toroids, albeit, a bit smaller than Steven used in the TPU.  I placed one of these on one lead of the TPU coil I had, loosely winding about 4 turns, and the whole think seems to come alive, when I hit certain frequencies.  The small toroids saturate so quickly, I can see it on the scope.

The TPU is about 15 to 20 cm in diameter, with the inner core made of a steel band coiled up to make a toroid, then over it I placed lamp cord.  I tell you that thing "sings" at lots of frequencies as I tune the Signal Generator connected to it.   Last night I said, before I wind another one, let me probe the vibrating core, and put it on the scope, and I did.   I took two push pins and poked in between the windings, one on the outside and one on the inside of the TPU, and made contact with the steel band inside the TPU.  

When you "come in contact" with the core it's amazing.  All sorts of hash, and noise, but no DC yet, but it sure got me thinking now.

EM

EM,

Could you illustrate what you were doing?

Thanks.


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EM,

Could you illustrate what you were doing?

Thanks.

That would be very helpful. A simple pictorial schematic is worth thousands of words.


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ok, here's a diagram.

So I have a single coil wound all around a tape wound core.   Only a few turns of the coil is shown, but it goes all the way around.    The "tape" in this case is a steel band used in shipping pallets.   I found a piece on the ground a while ago and made a toroid out of it.  

Since this steel band has the property of magnetostriction,  it expands and contracts with the magnetic field, so at certain frequencies, it hits resonance and it "sings" or makes audible  noise.

Where you see the red arrows, the probes contacted the steel ring.  One probe on the inner side and one on the outer side.  When I coiled up the core, I did not put any insulator between the layers, so the contact resistance is low but I'm sure not zero, as the band was somewhat oxidized.  

Anyhow,  I'm trying to experiment and see if there is a signal developing in the ring at the resonant frequencies where it vibrates audibly.

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That's a nice experiment EM, and somewhat reminiscent of experiments we were doing a while back with loops of various materials freely suspended and with currents induced. I don't know where the thread is now to direct you there, but when you hit the major resonance it can be heard throughout the house. We used piezo pickups embedded in the loop, or an electret microphone nearby to determine the resonant peaks...there were many!


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Consider two large horizontal loops that are fed an AC signal of the same frequency. Depending on the phase of the signals sent into the loops, there will be either an attractive or a repulsive force for each half cycle of the AC waveform between the loops.

Put another way, there will be a push apart due to the positive half cycle and a push apart due to the negative half cycle of the AC waveform. Reverse the phase to one of the loops and instead of a push apart, the loops are in attraction.
The maximum push or pull occurs when the currents in the loop are in phase or in antiphase.  At other phases the force is less and at 90 degree phase the rectification effect is zero, you get cyclic force.

Quote
This mechanical rectification of motion has always interested me, and is what allows Universal motors able to run in one direction despite the constantly reversing direction of current and voltage on AC mains.

Now vary the frequency of one loop just slightly off from the other and the effect will rotate the mechanical attraction or repulsion at the difference frequency around the loop.

No it won't, you will get cyclic force at the difference frequency.  The force does not move around the loop except at very high frequencies when there is significant phase delay along the conductor, i.e. when the conductor length per turn is a significant part of a wavelength or multiple wavelengths.  At low frequencies you have to look for other means to get phase delay along the conductor such as mechanical features like acoustic delay.  Then you can get different parts of the loop moving differently.

Quote
Conversely one loop could be trimmed in length to change the standing wave into a rotating wave of attractions (or repulsions, depending on phasing) around the loop. This is a mechanical force that rotates around the loop if I am correct in visualizing all this.

Yes this is possible either at very high frequencies or using the acoustic type resonance.

Quote
Then all that may be needed is a way to have that mechanical motion translate into the motion of the electrons in the wire. Perhaps here enters  SM's garden hose analogy,lifting the hose to produce a "hill" in the hose, which forces the water out one end. So we need not really a wave, but a hill (lifting the hose, and moving the lifted area along the hose). The mechanical rectification creates the "hill". Ordinary wave motion will not do the job as it will just force the electrons into the hills and valleys, but not move them along the wire. Pure wave motion would require a third frequency to modulate the wave to move electrons around the loop.

One thing you can do with ferromagnetic wire is create rotating magnetic fields within the wire.  Now you are not using acoustic or any other phase delay in the wire, you simply have say MHz rotation rates.  An interesting feature of a section of such wire that is magnetized along the section, but then the field leaves the wire at each end of the section, is that spin-polarized conduction electrons are pulled into the middle where the field is greatest.  I.e. you can create an electron bunch.  Now if that magnetization is rotating around the loop the electron bunch also rotates.  It looks like cars on a motorway travelling in groups.  Maybe this is a way to get DC since all the cars would be travelling the same way.

Quote
The loops could also be coiled up into multi turn electromagnets, but not rigidly fixed solenoids. The multi turn wire loops must be free to flex around the circumference in order to create relative mechanical motion between the loops and the circulating physical hill or valley in the wire.

Not if the hill or valley is a magnetic one, only the magnetic valley actually moves along the wire.

Quote
Just thinking out loud, have not tried this, but it seems to explain the use of the very floppy wires seen in the early video showing the core being cut apart. Also this idea seems to explain the thickness of the smaller units when the loops are multi turn and coiled within that structure, but free to move relative each other, perhaps suspended in a foam rubber surrounding.

I don't believe we will see the effect if our windings are tightly wound on rigid formers, which prevent the relative mechanical motion of the loops.

It would also explain the mechanical vibration felt by observers, and the slight gyroscopic force. Study ring resonators and it will become clearer.

This effect was probably noted in SM's dual voice coil research, where one of the voice coils came loose off the former allowing a degree of freedom against the other voice coil.

It also occurs to me that if the excitation AC signal is capacitively  or inductively coupled, the DC might be free to appear on the loops themselves, or possibly even between the loops if they remain electrically  iisolated from each other.

Remember, SM was an acoustics guy, experimenting with dual voice coil speakers in an attempt to get a spatial sound field out of a single speaker. This would require phase information differences between the coils as well as another degree of freedom  of motion (besides linear) in the piston of the loudspeaker

I wrote some of this up in the "Acoustic Resonator Hypothesis" a good while back but it was forgotten.

I published a paper on a separate TPU theme here suggesting how movement might obtain energy from the Earth's scalar magnetic potential.  I am in the process of producing another one that deals with the Earth's vector magnetic potential.

Smudge
   
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Smudge

Thank you for taking the time to read, respond and correct my errors in conceptualization.

Will look forward to your new paper, as always.

Regards, ION

P.S. I would be interested to see an expansion of what you think might work regarding acoustic or vibrational effects or strictly magnetic with vibrational side effects, as I believe that working towards a hypothesis that conforms to the known effects (weakly gyroscopic, slight vibration, a washboard effect when pushed through the air, DC output without electronic rectifiers, magnet sticking on iron wire, high power density) are major clues to reverse engineering the device.
« Last Edit: 2015-08-08, 12:50:14 by ION »


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The vibratory rectification to me is simply a wire vibrating in the magnetic field of an electromagnet.  When it moves one way, the B field has one polarity, and when the wire moves the other way, the magnetic field has a reverse polarity.
The question is what moves the wire, and is it an OU phenomena?

Id like to think magnetostriction might me, but more fundamently, a current caryng wire, that vibrates, might be the OU principle.

Experimentation will tell, i wont post anything untill I prove a theory I'm exploring, hopefully soon.

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From EM

Quote
The vibratory rectification to me is simply a wire vibrating in the magnetic field of an electromagnet.  When it moves one way, the B field has one polarity, and when the wire moves the other way, the magnetic field has a reverse polarity.
The question is what moves the wire, and is it an OU phenomena?

Not sure what you mean by rectification in this sense as it seems to me the wire will produce AC as it vibrates in the magnetic field. The vibratory motion of the wire itself will trace out an alternating mechanical pattern, unless there is an adjacent wire carrying an equal but opposite AC current, then the motion of the wire can be considered "full wave rectified", 2 attractions per cycle or two repulsions per cycle depending on the phasing of the wires. Note that the wires here described are immersed in each others AC pulsating field.

Could you expand on your definition of rectification in regards to the explanation above?


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The Lorentz Force moves the wire.  Tension on the wire moves it back, so it vibrates back and forth.

It would be nice if you could keep it moving in one direction, then you'd have DC.  Like a solenoid coil rolled into a loop, with a magnet rotating inside it.  Since this is impractical, you need to replace the magnet with other forces.  You need two perpendicular forces, and precession.  One of the force sources must rotate.  A magnetic field causes precession inherently, so it has this advantage over other forces that apply in a single direction.

You should be able to combine magnetic fields, but I'm not sure how to apply them at the moment.
   
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The Lorentz Force moves the wire.  Tension on the wire moves it back, so it vibrates back and forth.

It would be nice if you could keep it moving in one direction, then you'd have DC.  Like a solenoid coil rolled into a loop, with a magnet rotating inside it.  Since this is impractical, you need to replace the magnet with other forces.  You need two perpendicular forces, and precession.  One of the force sources must rotate.  A magnetic field causes precession inherently, so it has this advantage over other forces that apply in a single direction.

You should be able to combine magnetic fields, but I'm not sure how to apply them at the moment.

Regarding your first two sentences, yes that is a known. I'm trying to understand EM's definition of "rectification" as he used it in the post he made that I referenced, because I see no rectification.

As far as moving the wire in one direction, the wire could also be stationary and the field is moving in one direction and continually cuts it, then you will get DC from the wire, but this is not rectification in the electronic sense, where the negative half cycles are inverted into the space between the positive half cycles (full wave rectification), or where alternate cycles of an AC waveform are blocked, allowing only the positive or negative half cycles of an AC waveform through (half wave rectification).

Earlier,  I was referring to the mechanical analogue of electrical full wave rectification as it applies to currents flowing between wires, and the motion of those wires depending on the phasing.


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So if the wire vibrates in a static B field, the voltage induced in the wire is AC, however, if the wire vibrates in a B field produced by an electromagnet, now we can control it and reverse it in polarity.  By reversing it at the same frequency as the vibration of the wire, and with the correct phase, the induced voltage on the wire will resemble a rectified waveform, of one polarity only.

It can be easily understood by analyzing the eq.   V=(v X B)*L, where lowecase 'v' is the velocity of the wire and 'L' the length.  So for example, if 'v' is sinusoidal, and we also drive 'B' with the same frequency and phase, then their product will always be of one polarity.  Thats what I envision as vibratory "rectification".
So in the TPU, if the vibrating winding and the transverse winding are driven by the same signal, this could be a potential explanation for how DC voltage gets produced.
   
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So if the wire vibrates in a static B field, the voltage induced in the wire is AC, however, if the wire vibrates in a B field produced by an electromagnet, now we can control it and reverse it in polarity.  By reversing it at the same frequency as the vibration of the wire, and with the correct phase, the induced voltage on the wire will resemble a rectified waveform, of one polarity only.

It can be easily understood by analyzing the eq.   V=(v X B)*L, where lowecase 'v' is the velocity of the wire and 'L' the length.  So for example, if 'v' is sinusoidal, and we also drive 'B' with the same frequency and phase, then their product will always be of one polarity.  Thats what I envision as vibratory "rectification".
So in the TPU, if the vibrating winding and the transverse winding are driven by the same signal, this could be a potential explanation for how DC voltage gets produced.

Yes and this is the same as what I have been saying about two parallel wires driven at the same frequency. Now if we only drive one wire, and the second wire were shorted, there will be an induced current in the second wire at the same frequency. However we can effectively short it by putting a large value capacitor across it which will act as a near short yet collect the DC induced by the vibration. This does not occur in normal transformer action, because the windings are tight and cannot vibrate, so only AC will be produced on the second wire.

SM said "you have to create the worst case scenario". A transformer with a shorted secondary is the worst case scenario, as anyone who has shorted the secondary of a transformer knows, there are large mechanical forces placed upon the wires in such a condition. They would like to vibrate  but are severely limited in their range of motion. What vibration is possible is usually heard as a very loud hum emanating from the transformer. But what if we design our transformer such that the secondary wires are free to vibrate?

A while back I speculated on the 5U4 setup that SM referred to, that under certain conditions the windings of a transformer could become loose. This would happen if the transformer was used beyond it's capacity for a long time where enough heat was generated to degrade the paper between the windings by charring it and cooking off the varnish. In this situation the windings would become loose and have more of a tendency to vibrate.

To test all this, large currents are needed in the wires, but fortunately a low voltage will suffice. The wires will indeed get warm or even hot due to the high currents, perhaps a necessary part of the operation of the device, as SM said.

SM asked us to demonstrate this with the jumping battery cables to get the idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXKihkHjYes

 


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« Last Edit: 2015-08-13, 13:59:26 by wings »
   
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The Ringing sine waves produced during rapid rise time pulsing of a copper loop of wire
can not be associated with either wire resonant length or NMR resonance.  It is my belief
these near 5 Mhz waves are of a torsional nature and are a reflection of gravity waves or
tempic field waves having to do with light velocity in copper.  The distance of 44.5
feet as found in Lyle Lathems coils, is 1/4 wavelength of this natural frequency showing
up in copper wire that is receiving a torsion shock. Lyles coils produce a strong torsion
field because a 1/4 wave length is a canceling stub and creates a scalar canceling of the
gravity waves.

Tempic field waves...   Where have I heard that before?

Oh yes, W.B. Smith.  It's the field we always assume is constant and throw out of our
equations, referring only to the electric and magnetic fields as being important.
   
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http://www.resonantfractals.org/Magnetism/GyroEffects.htm


Was it verified by experiments? There are too many theories just floating around... ;)
   
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so I have some interesting results from a very simple circuit, shown below, which is a saturable reactor tuned with a capacitor.   With this circuit I was able to get a maximum frequency multiplication of 10x.  

As the applied voltage and current increase (sinewave 400Hz or so), the core saturates and its inductance plummets rapidly to a low value.  This drop occurs faster then the largest voltage change (dV/dt) at the 10x frequency, making it possible for the capacitor to oscillate with the coil (4kHz or so).   Think of it as a magnetic switch that just slammed closed (or low inductance).   The tape wound cores are just phenomenal!

Another observation I made is with a permanent magnet.  While the circuit was in operation, i brought a magnet close to the saturable reactor,  and a loud sound started emanating from the core.  The shape of the waveform on the oscilloscope did not change at all when the sound appeared.  This sound is probably around the 10x frequency based on its pitch.  It's very interesting that the sound is not audible except with the magnet present.  Other cores I tried made the sound without the external magnet.  


« Last Edit: 2015-08-16, 17:31:57 by EMdevices »
   
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so I have some interesting results from a very simple circuit, shown below, which is a saturable reactor tuned with a capacitor.   With this circuit I was able to get a maximum frequency multiplication of 10x.  

As the applied voltage and current increase (sinewave 400Hz or so), the core saturates and its inductance plummets rapidly to a low value.  This drop occurs faster then the largest voltage change (dV/dt) at the 10x frequency, making it possible for the capacitor to oscillate with the coil (4kHz or so).   Think of it as a magnetic switch that just slammed closed (or low inductance).   The tape wound cores are just phenomenal!

Another observation I made is with a permanent magnet.  While the circuit was in operation, i brought a magnet close to the saturable reactor,  and a loud sound started emanating from the core.  The shape of the waveform on the oscilloscope did not change at all when the sound appeared.  This sound is probably around the 10x frequency based on its pitch.  It's very interesting that the sound is not audible except with the magnet present.  Other cores I tried made the sound without the external magnet.

Yes, when the core saturates the inductance drops significantly so the frequency will go up. Be interesting to see your wave forms.

If you could post the inductance of the core and type,  and approximate capacitance, I will try to duplicate the results. Were you driving directly from a signal generator or through an amplifier. Was there any series impedance or a resistor to the gen.?

Thanks ION


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Core is from www.mag-inc.com,  part number 50B12-1D, capacitor is similar to what we see in the large TPU, big yellow cap, however the writing on it has faded, I can barely read 10 something on there.  (I don't have a meter to measure, sorry)  I can't post pictures, my iPad doesn't play nice with my windows laptop, or vice versa.
   
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I finished my mini mag-amp, and it works pretty good!  After jumping through many hoops, I finally got a picture on the computer to post as well, see below.  

I assembled the two cores myself and wound them up with two layers.  Right now in the picture I'm using a voltage supply at 500 kHz,, and with this frequency  I have about 4x DC output level shift when I saturate the core. (the higher the frequency the higher the inductive reactance, so the ratio of Z/R is high)   If I lower the resistance, I have achieved a maximum 10x amplification, which is not bad.   Right now it uses only half the waveform  (one diode only), but I'll experiment with a full bridge later.

EM

[edit:  the long ferite, with the green winding on it, is connected to the input so I can listen to the hum of the magnetic field.  I saturate the two toroids by bringing a magnet near them, like SM does with the TPU and then interesting things happen, I'm still trying to figure out what I'm seeing. ]
   
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