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Author Topic: Some "New" Observations  (Read 296130 times)

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Hmmm,


this evening i was trying to use my spectrum analyzer to analyze the helicap line, but found different values for resonance as yesterday using the FG/scope, see screenshot 1
First dip is 233Khz (not the 475KHz from yesterday) etc.

When checking again using the FG / Scope like i did yesterday, it confirmed the different resonance points, see screenshot 2.

As far as i can see nothing has changed in, on or near the helicap line.


Any idea why / how this change could have happened?

Itsu
   

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Any idea why / how this change could have happened?
Yes, because you are measuring dips (not peaks) and displaying them in the logarithmic mode.  To make a more similar display to your scope, change the spectrum analyzer's vertical axis display to a linear mode.
The first peak would be between the 1st and 2nd dip, so  ( 233kHz + 708kHz ) / 2 = 470kHz
   

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I understand what you are saying, but that was not what i meant.
Look at the 2 screenshots in my post above yours, there you see that the SA screenshot shows (dips) at 233, 703 etc. Khz (odds), and the scope too shows (peaks) at
these same frequencies.

These frequencies (SA and scope) are different from the scope screenshots in my earlier post #435 where i see (even) peaks at 475, 950 etc. Khz.


So something has changed overnight between these 2 measurements.


Itsu
   

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No it must be the difference between the S11 or S21 parameters being measured by the scope and SA.
   

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I found the reason for the 2 different resonance points on this helicap line.
It is the difference between a short or an open at the end.
I am sure i tried that the first day to, but did not notice the change probably because of the 10s sweep and the delay in displaying it.

Anyway,
open line we have resonance points like       475,  950, 1425 etc. KHz,
and with a shorted line resonance points like 233,  699, 1165 etc. Khz.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t60gMfWZ-U&feature=youtu.be     

Regards Itsu
   

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That is about 2.1μs after inversion, which compares nicely with your TDR measurment.
It also gives your Helicap line 0.002c a velocity factor.

This means that the nodes of the standing wave in your Helicap coil are 350 times closer than in your coax cable with VF=0.7c.
At 475kHz you will get 1 standing wave node and at 3.8MHz you will get 8 nodes.

You could use the 4 channels of your scope to visualize the standing wave by measuring the voltage across 4 caps (spaced equally) with a slow timebase.


To get 8 standing wave nodes in your coax cable of the same length as the Helicap line, you'd need to drive it with 1.33Ghz, which illustrates the whole purpose of having the Helicap line with its 0.002c velocity factor.

To put it in perspective, here are two videos to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozeYaikI11g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1PgCOTDjvI


...but, but I think the patent does not want a standing wave.  I think it wants a 90º traveling wave.  Please read it again to make sure - I am too lazy to do it tonight.

Not sure why we would need a slow timebase, but i tried this with as result, see screenshot.

FG put to 1st resonance point in an open line (477KHz), the 4 probes equally distributed across the Helicap line.
yellow and green at start and end, blue and purple on the 5th and 9th cap position.

We see a high at de start and end with a 180° phase shift.
The zero crossing is not exact in the middle (of the blue and purple probes), so we see a voltage difference still there.
Something as in the drawing below.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkTdEC5AYH4


Itsu
   

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Not sure why we would need a slow timebase, but i tried this with as result, see screenshot.
To display only the magnitudes. Like a VU meter.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkTdEC5AYH4
That's what I had in mind.  Just let's you see what's going on inside.
Do LEDs in series with 10K resistors light up across these caps?
   
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Now that would be neat. An LED-resistor pair across each capacitor, with the resistor value such that the LEDs would only light at the peaks. By varying frequency you'd see the peaks moving along the length of the line. Maybe it would work without killing the line. If it would work with one LED-resistor pair it might be neat to see one made with LEDs in every position.
With big power from the Heathkit transmitter it might be possible to get NE-2 neons to light up that way instead of LEDs.

EDIT: It works!
« Last Edit: 2017-04-11, 06:45:30 by TinselKoala »
   
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It's turtles all the way down
Now that would be neat. An LED-resistor pair across each capacitor, with the resistor value such that the LEDs would only light at the peaks. By varying frequency you'd see the peaks moving along the length of the line. Maybe it would work without killing the line. If it would work with one LED-resistor pair it might be neat to see one made with LEDs in every position.
With big power from the Heathkit transmitter it might be possible to get NE-2 neons to light up that way instead of LEDs.

EDIT: It works!

I was going to place neons right on top of the coils, but the resistor / led / neon across the capacitor sounds like a more controlled experiment.

You may not need that much drive with neons if your coil has a high enough Q, as the voltage can build to quite high values in the line.

Now we need to figure out how to get either a traveling wave or a series of singular pulses to travel down the line, so that in the process of transferring velocity to electrons, thus dragging electrons in a conductor placed within the line, it develops a DC current flow in the conductor.(or gas tube per the patent). The energy needs to be used up in this process before it reaches the end of the line such that there is no reflected pulse, which would just push the electrons backwards undoing the forward velocity, and no net DC in the target.

A proper termination would prevent reflections possibly at the expense of wasted power if the wave should get to the termination.   See section 2 par 5, thru 15.

Another possibility: the line is formed into a ring with output tied to input and a directional coupler injects the signal. Possibly diode blocking would be enough to keep the pulse going in one preferred direction.

It will be a while before I get back on this but doing things as I am able, (tax filing, 70 1/2 RMD's. complicated!).


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   

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Thanks ION,  just take your time to do things properly.

I was still playing around with this coil, like striking with a probe across the coil length with a very slow time base setting to see the trace "write" the amplitude
of the nodes/anti-nodes when using different resonance frequency settings.

No idea how to get "either a traveling wave or a series of singular pulses to travel down the line" so i will be waiting for any ideas to pop up.

Regards Itsu
   

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Now that would be neat. An LED-resistor pair across each capacitor, with the resistor value such that the LEDs would only light at the peaks. By varying frequency you'd see the peaks moving along the length of the line. Maybe it would work without killing the line. If it would work with one LED-resistor pair it might be neat to see one made with LEDs in every position.
With big power from the Heathkit transmitter it might be possible to get NE-2 neons to light up that way instead of LEDs.

EDIT: It works!
Yeah, that is neat...and close to your NE2 avatar.

I was still playing around with this coil, like striking with a probe across the coil length with a very slow time base setting to see the trace "write" the amplitude
of the nodes/anti-nodes when using different resonance frequency settings.
That is a good idea, too.
Once, I also used 74HCT4067 16-ch analog switches to make a visualizer of transmission line's standing waves on a scope. 
74HCT4067 converts the position along the length of a transmission line to the X-axis on the scope, by quickly scanning the switches sequentially with 74HC4520.  The analog switches do the same job as your manual "striking with a probe across the coil length" - just automatically.
That circuit is so obvious that I will not bother looking for its schematic, unless someone wants to play with it.

No idea how to get "either a traveling wave or a series of singular pulses to travel down the line" so i will be waiting for any ideas to pop up.
Slow FM sweep will get the nodes moving on an unterminated line
   

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Quote
Once, I also used 74HCT4067 16-ch analog switches to make a visualizer of transmission line's standing waves on a scope. 

I can imagine what kind of display will be the result.

Quote
Slow FM sweep will get the nodes moving on an unterminated line

OK, i will look into this slow FM sweep on an open line.

Thanks,  itsu
   

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OK, i will look into this slow FM sweep on an open line.
PM sweep too
   
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It's turtles all the way down
An calculator for standing waves in long lines which may be of interest.

http://gorchilin.com/calculator/longline?L=0.5&Q=175&g=100&g=0&g=33&g=0&g=0&ph=0&ph=0&ph=0&ph=0&ph=0

Maybe someone could translate the controls.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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An calculator for standing waves in long lines which may be of interest.

http://gorchilin.com/calculator/longline?L=0.5&Q=175&g=100&g=0&g=33&g=0&g=0&ph=0&ph=0&ph=0&ph=0&ph=0

Maybe someone could translate the controls.

ION,

Click on the American flag in the upper right hand corner of the page for an English translation.  The Gorchilin site has some interesting info IMO.

pm
   
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ION,

Click on the American flag in the upper right hand corner of the page for an English translation.  The Gorchilin site has some interesting info IMO.

pm

Hi thanks for the tip. Agreed, I saw the link and patent on OU.com and gave it a read. The patent and his work probably needs close scrutiny and in a topic dedicated to it.

Regards


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Might be interesting reading for those who interested in TPU replication

Quote
Foreword
I would like to present you one of most interesting and mysterious devices I have seen.
Michael (?) (MiMo) was researching and trying replicate Stiven Mark’s TPU.
He used ferrite rings with antialigned fields for creating superstrong electromagnetic fields in local
collector region. These rings have two opposing windings that were “dispersed” in resonance. At
the same time magnetic field was “squized” out from ferrites and form a narrow beam outward.
This beam of very strong field helped run phonon process in the collector. Further acceleration was
performed by coils that were fed from SCRs controlled by PIC MCU.
After experiments with achieving divergent process, his health deteriorated rapidly, so much that he
almost died and was recovering months after the incident. After that he deleted all the posts and
wrote that no one should deal with this topic.
Somewhere in six months people persuaded him to resume this work, and Michael has organized
forum (already located somewhere in Canada). There he organized mainly develop and manufacture
secure test box for TPU with tests on a remote basis using telemetry.
Forum lasted several months and work but stopped supposingly after outbreak of nationalist riots in
Moscow. Michael said that he no longer wants to have anything to do with the Russians. At that his
mission and all work on his TPU version stopped.
In this file collected posts and pictures from different people during replication process which was
coordinated by Michael. Unfortunately the replication was interrupted and we still don’t know exact
construction of his device.

« Last Edit: 2019-01-11, 20:14:08 by Vasik041 »
   
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It's turtles all the way down
Dear Vasik

Back in 2007 I began entertaining the idea that the TPU of SM worked on some type of electro-acoustic anomaly.

I put together some ideas in this document to see what would stick. It is by no means a theory, not even a hypothesis, just  a collection of ideas.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1092.0

I think the Mimo document may be on the right path, but unfortunately like Otto and Roberto Notte's ECD paper, the ideas are good but results are inconclusive.

My main criticism is that the devices of both parties are too complicated. We do not see that level of complexity in the original TPU units of several topologies. SM was also not a microcomputer programmer nor was he knowledgeable in digital design. His basic knowledge was audio amplifiers and early b/w and color TV repair.

SM himself said of his first device : "very simple no mass electronics, just knowledge of the coils and how they are wound".

Second point is, I believe the devices of SM used two types of feedback AC and DC to:
a) automatically track the acceleration increase of the electrons so that further kicks resulted in constant acceleration (AC feedback increasing frequency).

b) part of the DC output was fed back to bootstrap power the oscillator, but with limiting to prevent runaway. Small batteries were used for initial startup.

User Wattsup did an extensive redraw with frame by frame video analysis to produce two drawings which identified the important wires of the FTPU and the LTPU. I took the work of Wattsup and converted it into a partial schematic with black box controller.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=360.0

So while magnetostriction  and phonon drag may be related to the operating principle, IMO the driving circuit  may have been a simple feedback oscillator that automatically tracked the acoustic oscillation as the frequency increased.

I have no work yet to prove these ideas, but it is high on the list of research projects.

I hope the points in my critique can be appreciated, and this is not to say Mimo's device did not work, only that it may have been overkill for a proof of principle.

Are there any known working replications of Mimo's work that can be demonstrated and reproduced? I would hope that if they exist they could also supply 1kW to a resistive load without connection to a power supply or large battery.

Regards


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Dear ION,

thank you for detailed comments.

My main criticism is that the devices of both parties are too complicated. We do not see that level of complexity in the original TPU units of several topologies. SM was also not a microcomputer programmer nor was he knowledgeable in digital design. His basic knowledge was audio amplifiers and early b/w and color TV repair.
SM himself said of his first device : "very simple no mass electronics, just knowledge of the coils and how they are wound".
I agree, MCU probably overkill here, but it gives possibility easily try different control algorithms...

Assuming device was simple we can try derive a schematic. E.g two audio amplifiers driving two coils wound perpendicularly with 90 degree phase shift to create rotation field, VCO and some feedback circuit to control VCO.
Or even simpler, one amplifier and windings connected like in one phase motor with phase shift capacitor.
However DC part is not clear for me.
And this leads to a question - do you know construction details of that old TV set which exploded ? How windings in deflection system were arranged ? How it different from "modern" (newer models) ?
 
Quote
Are there any known working replications of Mimo's work that can be demonstrated and reproduced? I would hope that if they exist they could also supply 1kW to a resistive load without connection to a power supply or large battery.
As far as I know there are no replications. MiMo never demonstrated working device. He mentioned that output power of first device was about 100W.

Regards
« Last Edit: 2017-04-29, 19:14:15 by Vasik041 »
   

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...two audio amplifiers driving two coils wound perpendicularly with 90 degree phase shift to create rotation field,
Such arrangement will create a Lorentz Fan, because a rotating magnetic field pumps charged particles like a pump by the virtue of Lorentz force / deflection.
The attached photo shows such fan, as used to pump out charged dust particles out of a clean room. The other diagrams depict dual coil arrangements like those in 2-phase AC motor stators.

However DC part is not clear for me.
When charges are pumped unidirectionally, their movement constitutes a direct current.
   
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Yes, a single amplifier with phase shift capacitor would somewhat work for a single frequency, but capacitor would have to be changing as frequency increases.

IMO, With a slightly more advanced quadrature circuit, phase shift could be maintained as frequency increases. The important thing is: frequency must be increasing always accelerating particles to reach critical point where the shock wave is created and phonon drag effect of electrons. Much over that point, ultrasonic heating takes place in the wires, a "problem" SM always had with the TPU. He always monitored temperature and was very concerned about it on the larger units.Would not be a problem for me in winter  ;)

So feedback is automatically tracking the speed around the loop by either electrical or some type of acoustic feedback. SM always said the diameter, hence circumference was critical to the operating frequency and IMO he was not talking about radio wavelength, rather speed of sound through a metallic ring conductor.  ;)

P.S acoustic ring resonators create small gyroscopic effects.



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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   

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OK, i will look into this slow FM sweep on an open line.

Thanks,  itsu

I added 12 red leds in series with 10KOhm resistors across each capacitor and tried severall sweeps including PM and FM sweeps.
The visual is nice, but no specific peaks noted.

Feeding the coil from my FG from its beginning and having the end open.
Yellow probe across a middle led, green current probe in the return lead there, purple probe across the open end.

Makes a nice display, see video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5G-OhoocXI&t=6s

Regards Itsu
   

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@Itsu

According to the patent this should work like a peristaltic pump
Faster sweeps will move nodes/antinodes faster along that pipe and might squeeze along these electrons better, giving you a measurable effect.

P.S.
"Faster" does not mean "wider".
   

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Yes, a single amplifier with phase shift capacitor would somewhat work for a single frequency,
Yes. Also different inductance coils will create a phase shift.  That's why in that photo of the dust fan, these two coils are wound with different number of turns (and a different size of wire).

IMO, With a slightly more advanced quadrature circuit, phase shift could be maintained as frequency increases.
Some of us have 2-ch, phase coherent, function generators that can already do that with a push of a button.
   

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@Itsu

According to the patent this should work like a peristaltic pump
Faster sweeps will move nodes/antinodes faster along that pipe and might squeeze along these electrons better, giving you a measurable effect.

P.S.
"Faster" does not mean "wider".

Right, lowering the sweep time from 10s all the way to 1ms does not show anything special (well, there are lots of noisy signals)
I used the copper tube and a fluorescent lamp both with sine wave and square wave signals.

I will do some further testing with faster sweep times and different settings tomorrow.


Itsu
   
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