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Author Topic: rectifier into 5U4?  (Read 74383 times)
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Hello all,

SM gave us a good description how he made his tube rectifier. Maybe its clever to make a drawing and post it? Just an idea.
Maybe then its clever to figure out how to use batteries or a battery as power supply for a TPU? And then to make a drawing about such a configuration? And post it, of course? This is my next idea.

And my next idea is to compare this 2 "systems" - ways to pulse a TPU.

Or, the easiest way, ignore me, ha,ha.

Ohhhh, I have no time for drawings, sorry.

Otto

PS: in 1 video we could see something like a 9V battery?

Here is a quick sketch for you, Otto   ;D
   
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Hello all,

OK, nice drawing.

Now show me this but made with a battery. Dont forget that we dont have tubes in our TPUs.

Otto
   
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You wish me to give the whole idea away? Sorry, I don't publish anything without a complete proven theory and I can't prove how it (not a complete TPU) works.

Sorry, there are tubes in mine  8)
   
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Yes, I saw it already a few times, not only here:

OTTO SHUT UP AND FUCK YOURSELF!!

Nice day,

Otto

   

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tExB=qr
Yes but what solid-state device can do that with the resulting force still doing work? (Question sounds idiotic - now that I think about it. Oh Well, maybe the idea will make it across. I know what force will continue on when the switch has opened with almost zero contact open time.)

Also, now that I think back.... The term 'Hash', in the 60's, 70's and later was almost always referring to switching transients of silicon replacements for tube rectifiers. You had to put snubbing caps across them and add a current limiting resistor to clean up the mess.

I'm surprised I remember that bit because of my use of the term 'Hash' in the 60's, 70's a a bit later.  ;)


Good question.  Peter's SS circuit is doing it, but not in an orderly fashion.  Any time-dependent electrical field that has a high enough amplitude and is changing.  Happens in the solar system all the time.
   
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Otto

There is no reason to be angry.

You know how it is to share your work openly. The results are seldom positive.
I prefer to know if my idea is just another mistake before sharing. Most have been stupid mistakes.
The tube version I shared was not a complete mistake and has matured a bit.

Still, it is not at the progress of your work.

If you wish a battery vesion of my sketch replace the iron core with an iron laminated ring and feed it with a simple multivibrator. Make the coils so you can move them around the ring. So far, mine is just a very strange noise generator.

When I have it working better I will replace the iron with a folded copper loop so one half will see reverse polarity.

Then, the plan is to introduce four quadrants of radial magnetic polarization to make any moving charges produce unidirectional flow through that copper folded ring.
   
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Good question.  Peter's SS circuit is doing it, but not in an orderly fashion.  Any time-dependent electrical field that has a high enough amplitude and is changing.  Happens in the solar system all the time.

My honest opinion:

The coil is doing it to the core conductor. There is almost no indication of such induction if the spike isn't sharp and short. It is a simple matter of orientation.
In normal induction both wires are oriented the same way to the fields of the other. Yea, you can twist the iron core around and make it look different and still work but the the magnetic field of the core is in the middle doing the twisting.
In-short... normal induction works when the primary and secondary are parallel to one another.

Peter's is different. It is more like a knife cutting through the wire while perpendicular to that wire. As long as that is the only action going on he will only see very short spikes. These spike are from the mag field of the CC turn cutting through the cross-section of the core wire. This will generate almost no usable energy and the spikes will be positive and negative (field passing through the core and then returning).

Obviously, there is more to his results.... the explosions and following bursts.

I believe the coil wrapped the length of the core is to provide the magnetic bias to help make the A field unidirectional. The coil that should be pulsed to perp induce into the core should be elongated or elliptical. That core cannot be equidistant from all points of the inner surface of the pulsed coil because dead center is the nulling point for those pulses.

Each core should be wrapped as Peter's is. But, there should be two or more such coils. Each at extreme ends of the widest inner part of a larger pulsed elliptical overwrap.

I have not confirmed if those loops should be individual loops or two loops folded from one.

This is why I cannot believe the SS matters except to start the process and keep it under control. The sharper and shorter time for the pulses the better. Once the energy becomes unidirectional the gaps would be filled by new pulses. However, this is probably near the level of the latest TPUs seen.
I'll be very happy if I can make one work that required magnets and I don't mean for tripping switches.

I very much doubt any high energy electronics is required.

In any case, it is very good different directions are traveled. Someone is sure to find the right path.

Peter has the high energy anomalies. I have a steady but very low DC output with rectifier noise on top. I could probably light a LED if I used a joule thief but it would never power the multivibrator generating red noise for the perp induction. A dead end for me. It is like a shadow of a virtual N-machine that will never do better.

So back to the board etching and rectifier garbage output experiments on my bench. My priority is to duplicate Peter's results so I can run tests with equipment I use for work. It is very slow working through an 8" magnifying glass - my problem not the circuit's.



 
   

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The pulse has nothing to do with the collector.

The pulse creates the force. 

The force works on the medium.

The medium induces current in the collector provided the right conditions exist.

   
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It's turtles all the way down
"Hash" was also produced by gas rectifier tubes and required extra filtering with chokes to quench it. (early ARRL manuals from the 40's and 50's will show circuits for this)

 I built a single tube radio transmitter in the early 50's using a gas triode. It produced lots of hash across the whole AM band along with several strong carriers at various frequencies. Type 885 tube I think....Still have it somewhere.

Also gas rectifiers such as 0Z4 used in early AM car radios produced lots of "hash" and required filtering.

When the filters failed you could hear what sounded like white noise getting into the audio section.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   

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"Hash" was also produced by gas rectifier tubes and required extra filtering with chokes to quench it. (early ARRL manuals from the 40's and 50's will show circuits for this)

 I built a single tube radio transmitter in the early 50's using a gas triode. It produced lots of hash across the whole AM band along with several strong carriers at various frequencies. Type 885 tube I think....Still have it somewhere.

Also gas rectifiers such as 0Z4 used in early AM car radios produced lots of "hash" and required filtering.

When the filters failed you could hear what sounded like white noise getting into the audio section.

might this noise be full spectrum?
   
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"Hash" was also produced by gas rectifier tubes and required extra filtering with chokes to quench it. (early ARRL manuals from the 40's and 50's will show circuits for this)

 I built a single tube radio transmitter in the early 50's using a gas triode. It produced lots of hash across the whole AM band along with several strong carriers at various frequencies. Type 885 tube I think....Still have it somewhere.

Also gas rectifiers such as 0Z4 used in early AM car radios produced lots of "hash" and required filtering.

When the filters failed you could hear what sounded like white noise getting into the audio section.

Now there is an old memory  :)

I thought the OZ4 was only found in GM car radios.  Cold cathode gasser with some kind of ion bombardment to preheat the cathode.

I remember calling that noise 'Johnson noise'. Right or wrong it was noisy into the low RF ranges when those old rectangular mica caps busted.

Didn't those vibrator based power supplies run 200-400Hz?


An 885 as a transmitting tube? Wow, can't imagine that working very well. Those things are either on or off. I don't recall any 'in-between'. As I recall... they didn't actually turn off until the plate current hit zero. They must of had parts of the curve I never tried  :D
« Last Edit: 2010-06-15, 05:56:13 by WaveWatcher »
   
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Quote
An 885 as a transmitting tube? Wow, can't imagine that working very well. Those things are either on or off. I don't recall any 'in-between'. As I recall... they didn't actually turn off until the plate current hit zero. They must of had parts of the curve I never tried

Nothing magic here. With a tuned tank coil as the plate load, ringing in the coil/cap would force the plate current to zero thus repeating the cycle (commutation). The crystal microphone was fed directly into the grid which was biased a bit.

The 885 /6Q5 is a lot like an SCR and is in the thyratron class. SCR's can be made to commutate and therefore oscillate by using inductive loads. Properly applied they can be very robust as high power oscillators.

Check out T. Fairbairn's IONIC gas tube oscillators that put out near pure sine waves up to 875 kHz without tuned circuits. Not to be confused with relaxation oscillator mode.

http://www.fripro.com/other%20FAIRBAIRN%20inventions.htm#Gas%20Oscillator

"One miniature thyratron, the triode 6D4, found an additional use as a potent noise source, when operated as a diode in a transverse magnetic field. Sufficiently filtered for "flatness" ("white noise") in a band width of interest, such noise was used for testing radio receivers, servo systems and occasionally in analog computing as a random value source. An example small thyratron R.C.A. brand 885 Triode Thyratron The 885 is a small thyratron tube, using xenon gas. This device was used extensively in the timebase circuits of early oscilloscopes in the 1930s."

complete article here: http://www.amazines.com/Business/article_detail.cfm/1698756?articleid=1698756
« Last Edit: 2010-06-15, 18:06:26 by ION »


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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ION,

My dealings with thyratrons has always been 'destructive'  :D They have a longer life than most devices I've used but I couldn't imagine them lasting long enough to be a radio transmitter. Maybe I should have tried with something less than kiloamps :)

Thank you for the Fairbairn info. Do you know if that mercury vapor diode ever made it to market? I have a pretty good idea the military has been using them since the 60's.

At this moment I'm wondering if two were used in the largest TPU.....
   
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Hello all,

I need HEEEEEELP!

Maybe some clever people know where I can buy some P channel and N channel KOMPLEMENTARY JFETs??

Please dont say Farnell because Im the last 2 weeks on their site and found nothing usefull.

Otto

PS: sorry Im off topic but....
   
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Otto,

Perhaps this will help? http://users.tpg.com.au/users/ldbutler/NegResDipMeter.htm

I had a need for a jfet complementary pair. My final solution was found in the above link. I never found a pair built like a darlington bi-polar.

   
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Wave Watcher,

thanks for the link.

The best solution would be that a P channel and a N channel J FET pair is "packed" like in a IC. Then they would be complementary. But to buy such a clever made part is almost impossible. Today we have only seperated JFETs and much more of the N channel then P channel.

It seems that I have to continue to wright my looooong list with N and P channel  JFETs from Farnell and buy there a lot of types so I can finally finnish the TPU "story".

If someone is wondering what and why, just read wikipedia, JFETs. Did the autor mention "water" and something? Have we misunderstood SM?

Otto

   
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@otto

Sorry to for off topic response to your off topic question. lol

I just had confirmation that Semisouth.com will be shipping me two of each of these JFETs.
$28.47 each. - SJDP120R085 - Normally ON
$51.84 each. - SJEP120R063 - Normally OFF
I will be nervous when using these. lol

On my thread at OU.com @gyulasun put up another link to a potential supplier that may be much cheaper.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/163776-zhou-fangs-sales-thread-parts-you-always-wanted-but-hard-get-they-here.html

Hope this helps.

wattsup


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OMG.

I found an image I had put up way back of the underside of the FTPU center hole indicating that it looked like there was a battery there. In my mind I always had the vacuum tube image always having a pointy top like the left tube in the image below, but 5U4s come with the top end rounded like the right tube. You can see the FTPU image I am talking about.

In the OTPU you can see there may be a tube in a metal casing there also. Only visible in a few frames. Is it possible he actually just used tubes to run these two TPUs. I'll grab the image tonight but now I have to get to the office.


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JFET's

n channel JFET, e.g., 2N5457   http://www.physics.csbsju.edu/trace/2N5457.trace.html

p channel JFET, e.g., 2N5460   http://www.physics.csbsju.edu/trace/2N5460.trace.html

Have we misunderstood SM?

I think so.
   
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Hi Wattsup...regarding the tube images, neither of those you posted are 5U4 envelopes. The tube on the left looks like a TV damper diode, HV rectifier or Horizontal oscillator. The tube on the right is a type 6550 beam power pentode. The envelope is wider at the base and squatter than the 5U4.

I think a type 5AR4 would have been more of a fit inside the spool, if it was used at all.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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What I see appears there are two of a much smaller glass envelope diameter than a 5ar4. They are horizontal one stacked above the other and hid under the tape on the side closest to SM in most videos. The pins are on the right. The silicon rectifiers are more easily seen. One epoxy style below the magnet on the left. A top-hat style directly across from the other. Both on the outer diameter of the lower ring.
   
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I think it is possible he used cold cathode and or gas types.
   
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Hi Wavewatcher

I agree with your assessment and was amazed to find the Fairbairn gas diodes and triodes. I wish my eyes were good enough to see some of the things others can see in the low res captures.

 Wattsup has done a great job tracing out a lot of the wiring on the FTPU. A updated sketch or pictorial would be helpful, could you put together a sketch of what you see? I would be very interested in your take on this.

Thanks


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Sorry.

Even with my wild imagination, there isn't enough to come up with even a partial circuit.

The closest I've come, with minimal guess work, are the secondaries of the transformer and the silicon rectifiers shown on the last image I posted in this thread.

Sorry, Wattsup. I always have problems with the custom nomenclature. When I was speaking of tubes above, I was talking about what you would call the OTPU.

In the FTPU (I never figured how folks decided it was the first one), there could be a tube in the center. I don't see any evidence of it but who can tell?

If there is one in the center it would be a gassy one with no getter ring and horribly over driven (in my TPU understanding, anyway). I think a 1AX2 would fit nicely in there. Stick one in the middle of an axial field speaker magnet and hit it with about 20kV reverse bias. All kinds of crap happens. Be wary of what does. It'll expose photographic film a couple of feet away.

I couldn't imagine anyone thinking that was a good thing so I took a different route.


   
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Steven said that tubes doNOT need to be inside the ring only ss must be ...but that could be a tube or a battery.
 magnetic fields from transformers can upset the process if close to the unit.
   
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