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Author Topic: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration  (Read 154517 times)

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
This is a good catch. Did any one else besides yourself notice it?

Spokane1
Apparently (as is often the case), no one reads my posts. (or perhaps a very short memory is to blame) C.C ;)

I'm the one that first pointed out that the current side of the analyzer was bypassed (see post in link above).

Then just 10 posts later, TK himself quoted my post where he first mentions the bypass, so indeed he knows who else (first) noticed it. ;)

This seems to happen a lot in general.
   
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Apparently (as is often the case), no one reads my posts. (or perhaps a very short memory is to blame) C.C ;)

I'm the one that first pointed out that the current side of the analyzer was bypassed (see post in link above).

Then just 10 posts later, TK himself quoted my post where he first mentions the bypass, so indeed he knows who else (first) noticed it. ;)

This seems to happen a lot in general.

Dear poynt99,

Then you can claim the Wendy's Country Fried Chicken Burger with Bacon and a small Frosty reward for being most observant, but you are going to have to come to Spokane to collect your prize.

I hear you when you grouse about people not reading the past posts. I'm guilty of that myself.

Do you have any idea as to how Graham could have made an attempt at an energy input reading with the current connections on the C-H disconnected?

Attached is a revised one line diagram showing some of the instrument connections.
   
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Apparently (as is often the case), no one reads my posts. (or perhaps a very short memory is to blame) C.C ;)

I'm the one that first pointed out that the current side of the analyzer was bypassed (see post in link above).
Ah...  that's the post where you quoted _my_ post where I said,
Quote from: TK
Furthermore--- the Clarke-Hess power analyzers with which I am familiar require several connections to a circuit in order to monitor it properly. To monitor Voltage the instrument is connected like any DMM, across the supply. To monitor Current the instrument is patched _in series_ with the supply and circuit being monitored. Obviously to compute a Power reading both connections must be made.
Quote
Then just 10 posts later, TK himself quoted my post where he first mentions the bypass, so indeed he knows who else (first) noticed it. ;)

This seems to happen a lot in general.

 :D     ^-^
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Ah...  that's the post where you quoted _my_ post where I said,
 :D     ^-^
Yeah, obviously.

So what?
   
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Dear poynt99,

Then you can claim the Wendy's Country Fried Chicken Burger with Bacon and a small Frosty reward for being most observant, but you are going to have to come to Spokane to collect your prize.

I hear you when you grouse about people not reading the past posts. I'm guilty of that myself.

Do you have any idea as to how Graham could have made an attempt at an energy input reading with the current connections on the C-H disconnected?

Attached is a revised one line diagram showing some of the instrument connections.

The "input" C-H is connected as a voltmeter, presumably correctly across the supply. The Current patch wiring is not connected to the instrument and is connected to a Red Cliplead which goes out of the camera frame to the right. If this Red Cliplead is in fact two Clipleads, which connect over to some current-monitoring instrument like a DMM, then Gunderson could have used the V reading from the C-H and the I reading from this off-screen DMM to compute a hand-waving sort of power measurement.

But I'm "guessing" that there is only one Red Cliplead that simply makes the short-circuit connection between the two banana plug ends of the Current patch wiring so as to complete the circuit to the DUT. Which means of course that the C-H isn't giving a valid power reading at all, and no other current reading instrument is in evidence. Only the people who were present at the demonstration can tell us more than this.

Was this lack of a current connection to the C-H mentioned during the demonstration? Did Gunderson ever refer to the disconnected instrument's invalid power reading during the demonstration? It would be very easy for people watching, who might not be familiar with the use of the C-H or power measurements in general, to "assume" that the Power reading shown in the C-H's Function window is really indicating the input power to the DUT.
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Do you have any idea as to how Graham could have made an attempt at an energy input reading with the current connections on the C-H disconnected?

Quite simply, he would not have been able to obtain an input power measurement with the current path bypassed.

It's only a guess, but perhaps he found that the CH analyzer was causing some problems with the scope measurement when done simultaneously, or the current measurement itself was creating an issue. Not sure how though, since the only difference would be running through a bit more wiring, and a non-inductive CSR.

But again, the fact the H-bridge output is running through that much wiring (looped through a toroid) is troubling itself.
   

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Believing in something false doesn't make it true.
Apparently (as is often the case), no one reads my posts. (or perhaps a very short memory is to blame) C.C ;)


This seems to happen a lot in general.

I am relatively new to this forum but I have noticed that when I click on a link to a thread that has something new I get taken to the last post.  I have mistakenly several times only read that post thinking it was the latest.  Then I have seen a quote or reference to something I didn't see and when looking back at the thread I have found the post or posts that I had missed.  On most other forums I belong to when you click on "new" or "unread" they will take you to the first new post in that thread that you haven't read.  Am I missing something in the way I open threads when looking for new postings?  Or does this forum not have a way to take you to the first post you haven't read?  Thanks for any insight into what is going on.


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Just because it is on YouTube does not make it real.
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
We'll check it out.
   
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Well
I was confused [ ...and then I wasn't
yes Poynt had mentioned that early on
   
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I am relatively new to this forum but I have noticed that when I click on a link to a thread that has something new I get taken to the last post.  I have mistakenly several times only read that post thinking it was the latest.  Then I have seen a quote or reference to something I didn't see and when looking back at the thread I have found the post or posts that I had missed.  On most other forums I belong to when you click on "new" or "unread" they will take you to the first new post in that thread that you haven't read.  Am I missing something in the way I open threads when looking for new postings?  Or does this forum not have a way to take you to the first post you haven't read?  Thanks for any insight into what is going on.
I see an Unread Posts button on the Home Page menu bar.

Smudge
   
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Quite simply, he would not have been able to obtain an input power measurement with the current path bypassed.

It's only a guess, but perhaps he found that the CH analyzer was causing some problems with the scope measurement when done simultaneously, or the current measurement itself was creating an issue. Not sure how though, since the only difference would be running through a bit more wiring, and a non-inductive CSR.

But again, the fact the H-bridge output is running through that much wiring (looped through a toroid) is troubling itself.

Dear poynt99

Come to think of it Graham did mention that he was having problems with the C-H Instrument interfering with the circuit, we will have to review his presentation to see what he actually said. But, it was something about the sampling rate and the output of the logic system conflicting. He had to make a slight adjustment to the logic system to change the frequency so that the two systems wouldn't interact.  For all I know he might have pulled the current connections off in order to continue with the presentation. If that is the case then I have been reporting on a bogus observation, which means that his machine is only running at a COP of 6 and not 50.

I shall pay a lot better attention when the DVD comes out.

Graham did spend a fair amount of time explaining how the instruments did their job and how they were technically different in their measurement approach.

Spokane1
   

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Believing in something false doesn't make it true.
I see an Unread Posts button on the Home Page menu bar.

Smudge

Thanks!  I just did not see that before.  I tried it and it works great!


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Just because it is on YouTube does not make it real.
   
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But again, the fact the H-bridge output is running through that much wiring (looped through a toroid) is troubling itself.

Dear poynt99,

Does this photo with a view from the top help with understanding the connections any better? This is one of Reiyuki's posted photos.
   

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Dear poynt99

Come to think of it Graham did mention that he was having problems with the C-H Instrument interfering with the circuit, we will have to review his presentation to see what he actually said. But, it was something about the sampling rate and the output of the logic system conflicting. He had to make a slight adjustment to the logic system to change the frequency so that the two systems wouldn't interact.  For all I know he might have pulled the current connections off in order to continue with the presentation. If that is the case then I have been reporting on a bogus observation, which means that his machine is only running at a COP of 6 and not 50.

  It was something along the lines of:  'Around 30khz, the pulses would hit a harmonic of the load meters internal clock and false-trigger them'.  This would probably cause things like resets, insane signals, and phantom button presses.


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Critical thinking is important, but a professional skeptic will never discover anything new.
   
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  It was something along the lines of:  'Around 30khz, the pulses would hit a harmonic of the load meters internal clock and false-trigger them'.  This would probably cause things like resets, insane signals, and phantom button presses.

Or simply readings he didn't like very much.  (I have occasionally noticed some small effect on circuit performance myself from inserting a C-H 2330 inline, so I'm not discounting the possibility altogether.)

Besides, the scope shot shows no signal "around 30 kHz".  The main repetition frequency shown on the scope is almost exactly 50 kHz and the sinusoid frequency is about 73-75 kHz.



Dear poynt99

Come to think of it Graham did mention that he was having problems with the C-H Instrument interfering with the circuit, we will have to review his presentation to see what he actually said. But, it was something about the sampling rate and the output of the logic system conflicting. He had to make a slight adjustment to the logic system to change the frequency so that the two systems wouldn't interact.  For all I know he might have pulled the current connections off in order to continue with the presentation. If that is the case then I have been reporting on a bogus observation, which means that his machine is only running at a COP of 6 and not 50.

I shall pay a lot better attention when the DVD comes out.

Graham did spend a fair amount of time explaining how the instruments did their job and how they were technically different in their measurement approach.

Spokane1

If he adjusted the frequency so the systems didn't interact, why didn't he plug the C-H current monitor back in then?

So where did the data indicating COP 6 come from then?
   

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Or simply readings he didn't like very much.  (I have occasionally noticed some small effect on circuit performance myself from inserting a C-H 2330 inline, so I'm not discounting the possibility altogether.)

He mentioned it more like sporatic glitches (like the meter automatically changing modes) than reliably giving false readings.  Of course you're right; one does not automatically rule out the other ;)


Quote
So where did the data indicating COP 6 come from then?

  It was on the initial presentation, the ~1.5w in ~8-9w out, with both the scope math and load meters quote: 'in agreement'.

  A problem is that he moved the probes around a few times during the presentation to show different features (zooming into the ~1kv interrupt spike and that kind of thing).  A lot of pictures are from later on that may not have had the probes hooked up, or hooked up in a different position.


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Critical thinking is important, but a professional skeptic will never discover anything new.
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Graham did spend a fair amount of time explaining how the instruments did their job and how they were technically different in their measurement approach.

Spokane1
That part will be very interesting to review. Looking forward to it.
   

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Thanks!  I just did not see that before.  I tried it and it works great!

wow.. who knew.. i didn't click on it either that i recall.. just like's Mike's radio station.. what does this mean ? is it a common trait amongst serious people to be blinkered.. how does this affect us ? how does your observation of the situation change your behaviour ? phew.. take a breath!  >:-)


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Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   
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Chips on the logic board:

TS556CN dual timer
MM74HC123AN dual monostable multivibrators ( four chips )
74AC74P dual D-type flip-flop
74AC14PC hex Schmitt trigger inverter
TS372 dual comparator

And the TO-220 devices at the top right of the board are presumably voltage regulators, like perhaps LM7805 (non heatsinked). I still can't figure out that part of the circuit. It's possible that the heatsinked device isn't actually in the circuit, since the only "output" I can see is directly from the 7805 (?) to the power rails of the breadboard. Or the heatsinked device could be another 78xx regulator stepping down voltage from a higher voltage DC rail to act as input to the 7805. I just can't tell how they are wired from the photo, except that they are getting input power from the topmost breadboard rail and the only output is from the one device to the other lower voltage power rails. And of course a monitoring LED+resistor to show that the lower voltage rail is powered.

I've filled in the chip part numbers on Spokane1's annotated photo of the breadboard.
« Last Edit: 2016-07-28, 12:59:08 by TinselKoala »
   
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Nobody has made a post in the Gunderson thread on Energetic for several days. I'm beginning to think that they don't really believe in Gunderson over there !
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
GG certainly seems old school. Most or all of that logic circuitry could be done with a single $5 microcontroller.

But good for him for designing it with discretes. I like it. :)
   

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Buy me a cigar
GG certainly seems old school. Most or all of that logic circuitry could be done with a single $5 microcontroller.

But good for him for designing it with discretes. I like it. :)

I " cut my teeth " with the 74 series TTL. Greatest sense of achievement was a working 4 way traffic light scheme.

Those were the days.


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
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Dear Builders and Measurement Specialists,

Here is my first pass at wiring diagrams for the Graham Gunderson Logic controller. There are two versions. One is the way things appeared to be wired during the presentation. The other is the way the system was connected a week after the convention in Graham's shop. In that version he has disabled some of the chips and appears to have attached one or two pulse generators to possibly sweep input signals.

There is a fair amount of detail in these drawings. I have included pdf versions so you can study the small text. The resistors came in pretty good, but I couldn't see what the values were for the capacitors or the trim pots.

The next step is to develop a logic diagram so that we can figure out what is happening.

Spokane1
   
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OK, so I posted this on O U dot com so I'll go ahead and post it here too:

@Spokane1:
That's nice work! I know how tedious that kind of thing is, especially when working from photographs that may not be too clear or from good angles.

But.... It seems from your schematics that the entire bit of circuitry that includes the components associated with U4, U2 and U1 is a Red Herring that does not connect to the rest of the circuit at all, other than being powered by the Vcc supply. This is the case in both the Experimental and the Presentation schematics. I'm sure you noticed this when you were drawing them up. This simplifies the problem greatly.

So here's what I think it's doing, based on your schematics.  We appear to have the 556 timer (U3) providing a clock signal that goes unchanged to both the H-Bridge and the Synchronous Diode. And we also have in the Presentation circuit, two monostable multivibrators U5 and U7. U7 appears to be an oscillator that provides pulses to the U8 hex inverter, which go through two of U8's gates then fed to the H-bridge. But this same signal through only one gate of the U8 is then fed back to the other monostable multivibrator U5 to trigger it, I believe, and it provides a pulse that goes to the Synchronous Diode. The U8 hex inverter also passes the input signal from U7 through three gates which then goes to the H-bridge. So the hex inverter's two outputs to the H-bridge are cleaned up, squared-off and oppositely phased versions of the pulse signal from U7. The U6 is not used in the Presentation circuit. There doesn't appear to be anything that synchronizes the U3 556 clock with the U7-U5 clock system. The U3 clock is fixed frequency and pulse width but the U7 and U5 multivibrators have trimpots for adjustments of either pulse width or frequency or both.

In the Experimental version, the U7 oscillator isn't used and an external FG (or two) is presumed to provide the clock signal for the U8 hex inverter and also the feedback signal for triggering the U5 monostable multivibrator.


Did you notice that my "mockup" of the U4 circuit (the TS372 dual comparator) oscillates, when it oscillates,  at exactly 60 Hz? This is undoubtedly due to those essentially floating reference pins 2 and 5, making the thing so sensitive and unstable that it picks up EMI from the house wiring, power supplies, etc. and oscillates in step with it, when the voltage supplied to the 1k resistor is just right. That is, if I built it right to begin with and if my TL082 is behaving as the TS372 would. Of course this issue is moot because this section of the circuitry isn't actually connected to anything in both the Experimental and the Presentation schematics.

---------

It would be great if someone else with TTL experience could correct, add to or subtract from my guesstimation.  Unfortunately I don't have any 74HC123 chips in my stash but at least I can try to breadboard the 556 clock portion later on today FWIW.
   
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Hmmm... OK, I've breadboarded the 556 timer. The only flavor of 556 that I had in my box is a TI brand NE556N, and with Vcc = 5 V, and using the timing components listed on Spokane1's schematic, it oscillates at about 292 kHz.  Going up to Vcc = 9V it goes up to about 313 kHz.

This doesn't seem to correspond to any of the frequencies in the Gunderson scopeshot though.

Changing the capacitor on Pin 8 to 10 nF instead of 1 nF brings the frequency down to about 72 kHz, and shortens the duty cycle to about 57 percent, which makes a bit more sense. Maybe.

   
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