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Author Topic: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils  (Read 155816 times)

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Hi ION  :)

Thanks. Just peeking in, don't want to disrupt things too much.

I'm always intrigued with measurement challenges, and this appears to yet another one.

   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
TK,

You may also wish to try this configuration...and repeat the tests (22m should give about 2.2nF).
   
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(snip)
What happened to the 4.6mW? It is now indicating 22mW. Is the Pout still 12mW?

You've lost me. All three of the scopeshots show 21-22 mW for the Math average, and Pout is 1.332/18.8= 94.1 mW.

Perhaps you are referring to earlier shots where I wasn't using the F43 FG and was operating at lower powers (as in the video).

Quote
(snip)
You might wish to try replacing the PBF with a 2.2nF cap and repeating the tests.
Again, if you would please make this suggestion exact and explicit on a schematic, that would be much appreciated. I think I know what you mean but please, to avoid any confusion, show it on a schematic. Thanks...

   
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TK,

You may also wish to try this configuration...and repeat the tests (22m should give about 2.2nF).

Sure... as soon as someone sends me seventyfive feet of RG-58, I'd be glad to oblige.
   
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Here's a thirty-five cent answer (free shipping included):

System tuned to produce a large COP as in previous scopeshots, then all probes removed. A 12-volt grain of wheat bulb is held across the Input, and the same bulb held across the Output.

(And no, the GOW bulb does not light up when connected in place of the LED on the output of the pickup coil.)
   
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Here's some more data. I removed the 18.8 ohm "load" resistor and put a GOW bulb in its place. The cold resistance of the GOW is 13.22 ohms (Fluke 87-III in high-res mode).

The first screenshot (61) is at a frequency that gave me COP>1 with the 18.8 NI resistor. The bulb is glowing. You can see that the phase difference has dropped, and that the input Math trace is mostly above the zero line now.  BUT... here's the thing. I connected another bulb to a DC power supply and an ammeter. When adjusted to about the same brightness by eye, it dissipates 142 mW (3.40V at 41.8 mA). The Input Math trace and manual calculation of input power are both around 72-74 mW. See scope trace and photo, the top bulb is the DC powered one, bottom bulb is output of PBT.

At full power (12 v) the bulb draws 93 mA.

The second scopeshot (58) is with the FG frequency tuned (much lower) to produce a high phase shift again. But the bulb is not glowing, so presumably one can use its cold resistance for the output power calculation.

   
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So I think what the bulb test is telling me is that there is something seriously wrong somewhere. It's time to examine the root assumptions that cause us to believe we are measuring Pin and Pout using the proper measuring points, formulae, and techniques.
   
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On the other hand.....

More bulb brightness testing:

Scopeshot, and bulbs.       8)
   
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Another:

   

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Another:

Would you not just measure the RMS value across the globe,when being powered by the BPC circuit,and then drop the equivalent DC voltage across the glode,and see what the DC power calculation comes out at?.


Brad


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So I think what the bulb test is telling me is that there is something seriously wrong somewhere.
Different load - different numbers.
What's the problem you see with this ?  Filament inductance, skin effect, GOW bulbs' parameter variations... ?

P.S.
What is the RMS value of the HF voltage across the GOW, as calculated by your scope vs. a DC voltage across the same GOW shining with the same brightness verified by your luxmeter ?
« Last Edit: 2017-05-06, 09:25:53 by verpies »
   
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Would you not just measure the RMS value across the globe,when being powered by the BPC circuit,and then drop the equivalent DC voltage across the glode,and see what the DC power calculation comes out at?.


Brad

Now you are getting ahead of the game plan!   ^-^

Right now I'm checking the sanity of the scope. I'm feeding a DC voltage into one channel to act as a reference. This voltage is monitored by my Fluke 87-III. Then I set the FG to make a sine wave that comes right up to the line of the DC voltage. Then I check the scope's automatic measurements against the Fluke's voltage reading, the frequency counter against the FG's setting, the cursor's math, and whatever else I can find in the full data dump. Checked both high range (5.04 volts) and low range (512 mV). Not surprisingly it is more accurate at the high end but even at the low end in the 200 mV/div range anyway it is still acceptably accurate, or at least it agrees with the Fluke to within one or two percent. (The Fluke still has a NIST-traceable calibration sticker on it, too.... )

So I think that my scope can probably be trusted, at least for p-p voltages and frequency.

   

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Now you are getting ahead of the game plan!   ^-^

Right now I'm checking the sanity of the scope. I'm feeding a DC voltage into one channel to act as a reference. This voltage is monitored by my Fluke 87-III. Then I set the FG to make a sine wave that comes right up to the line of the DC voltage. Then I check the scope's automatic measurements against the Fluke's voltage reading, the frequency counter against the FG's setting, the cursor's math, and whatever else I can find in the full data dump. Checked both high range (5.04 volts) and low range (512 mV). Not surprisingly it is more accurate at the high end but even at the low end in the 200 mV/div range anyway it is still acceptably accurate, or at least it agrees with the Fluke to within one or two percent. (The Fluke still has a NIST-traceable calibration sticker on it, too.... )

So I think that my scope can probably be trusted, at least for p-p voltages and frequency.

TK

Have you been getting any sleep?

I know this is exciting and all,but a TK collapsed in a big heap on the floor from fatigue overdose ,is no good to anyone.

I only ask,as my day time over here,is your night over there,and i see you here every time i log in.

It's now 4.15pm her,and so must be close to 4.15-5.15 am over there.

Look after yourself  O0


Brad


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Different load - different numbers.
What's the problem you see with this ?  Filament inductance, skin effect, GOW bulbs' parameter variations... ?

P.S.
What is the RMS value of the HF voltage across the GOW, as calculated by your scope vs. a DC voltage across the same GOW shining with the same brightness verified by your luxmeter ?

An excellent test, in the same ballpark as TinMan's.

   
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TK

Have you been getting any sleep?

I know this is exciting and all,but a TK collapsed in a big heap on the floor from fatigue overdose ,is no good to anyone.

I only ask,as my day time over here,is your night over there,and i see you here every time i log in.

It's now 4.15pm her,and so must be close to 4.15-5.15 am over there.

Look after yourself  O0


Brad
3:35 am now (USA Central Time Zone, GMT +6)

Don't worry, I don't have anything important to do tomorrow (er, today...) and I am a night owl from way back.

   
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I was a little worried about whether my Extech LT300 would pick up the dim light with sufficient sensitivity to be useful. So I selected one bulb to use for the testing, taped it directly to the surface of the meter's sensor, and stuck the sensor+bulb into an opaque bag. Then I took data on V, mA and Lux. I now have 13 datapoints from 1.10 V, 23.2 mA, 0.02 Lux, up to 6.00 V, 62.0 mA, 105.9 Lux. So it looks like it is sensitive enough and I'll graph this data for reference and interpolation. Then I'll connect this same bulb to the PBT and see what happens. That will have to wait a while though.
   
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Bulb calibration data:

(and I really am going to shut down now....)
   
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It's turtles all the way down
TK Thanks for all your effort, rest well.

FWIW

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2029.0

For those that don't have a good light meter. I used an inexpensive indoor / outdoor thermometer for these tests, and the results were comparable to the Fluke dual thermometer.

The resistor /  thermal method seems to have better resolution on the low end and is more linear, compared to the light meter and gow bulbs. (see attached chart)

However, each method has its own set of advantages and disadvantages which we can discuss later or in a separate thread.
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Partzman, thanks for your effort also,

I took a tiny bit of time to build your folded line using ribbon cable. Will test today, possibly with thermal methods. I found your latest MEI stuff very interesting, but have some questions best answered at a later time.

Regards



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nighty night mate. Thank you
   
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Partzman,

Are you obtaining strange results with your sim also? Strange results meaning COP>1? If so, have you posted a circuit with parameters?

No, I have never in all my tries been able to achieve the same OU results with LtSpice simulation.

Pm
   

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Wound a large BPC today,just to see how it would go using plastic coated multi strand wire.

Bulb 1(the lit one),is in place of R1 on Partzman's schematic.
Bulb 2(one not lit) is placed between the R1 and R2 resistor,and positive in of the FG.

The frequency where bulb 2 go's out,and bulb 1 lights up,is very narrow with this coil-4.367MHz to 4.371MHz


Brad


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No, I have never in all my tries been able to achieve the same OU results with LtSpice simulation.

Pm

Would sim's even have transmission line data software ?

Sim's only simulate the known--what man has programed them to simulate.


Brad


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How would a step up ratio look for the input " voltage transformer "?

With known turns ratio into L1 ( being open ended ) would this not " up the ante " ?

I'm ordering some more " Copper Slug repellent tape " today hoping to try and join in.

Cheers Graham.


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
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Would sim's even have transmission line data software ?

Sim's only simulate the known--what man has programed them to simulate.


Brad

Brad,

LtSpice has a model for Tlines that has an infinite number of lumped L/C segments and no resistance so it is lossless.  They also include a Tline with loss as well but, one can model a transmission line by creating your own L/C lumped segments that will give reasonable accuracy to known real transmission lines. 

However with the MEI device, if energy is entering from outside the Tline from say the aether for example, then that would never be visible in the simulation which is where I believe you were coming from and is correct.

Pm 
   

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How would a step up ratio look for the input " voltage transformer "?

With known turns ratio into L1 ( being open ended ) would this not " up the ante " ?

I'm ordering some more " Copper Slug repellent tape " today hoping to try and join in.

Cheers Graham.

Copper Slug repellent tape  ???


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