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Author Topic: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils  (Read 131831 times)

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Well, now anyone who finds this forum can see this link, right?

So is it OK with you if I list it publicly on my channel, so my subscribers and my trolls will see it? Or would you rather I didn't... it's up to you.    ;)
Thanks TK
yes indeed this forum can be read by anyone.  O0
   
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The power amplification (if it is real and being measured correctly) is inherent in the device. All you need to do is loop it correctly and a tiny COP improvement over COP=1 (enough to cover losses in looping components) will yield enormous and dangerous results via regeneration which in this case is continuous power multiplication until the device melts down and stops or otherwise self destructs.

The problem then becomes controlling the reaction, "the fire that feeds itself"

I will post some simple limiter circuits to eliminate the "dangerous" part.

Regards

P.S. read up on SM's stuff, he covers all this. And BTW, I believe someone? said that in a transmission line a current pulse can travel in both directions e.g. the forward pulse passes through the reflected pulse of an open or shorted line. There are simulators on line demonstrating something like this.

ION,

I agree with you here.  Perhaps more power is not needed for successful looping, but maybe it would be useful to have higher power levels to help solidify accurate measurements for easier confirmation the device has a COP>1. 

What is really interesting to me at this point is TK's preliminary proof of loaded external induction not affecting the input power in a negative way abut rather positively.  IOW, does this mean that induction by displacement current is basically one-way, no lenz effect?  I've wondered this for a long time and TK has shown an easy way to test this.  This may also be a path for successful looping.

Is this all beginning to somewhat resemble the FTPU to you?

The regenerative issue is a big thing and certainly deserves discussion.  I hope we reach these kinds of problems :)!

Pm
   

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I've spent all night making a detailed video demonstrating the setup and the phenomenon and another phenomenon we haven't yet discussed here.
The calculations are fine in your video.
The multiplication of two ADC quantization errors might introduce additional inaccuracies, especially if the ADCs are severely undersaturated.

Most of all, I still have doubts about the entire input current being "caught" by the R2a, especially the current due to the parasitic capacitance, that I've depicted in red below.  It would be more convincing if your measurement setup was more like on the attached schematic.

Also, at the end where you loaded the bifilar transformer with a spaced monofilar pancake coil and an LED, I was expecting the calculation of the output power (at least out of the BPT) ....alas it never came :(

P.S.
IIWY I would wind the isolation transformer to minimize the inter-winding capacitance (i.e. two separate windings, non-interlaced like in a CM Choke.).  I realize that the coupling coefficient is lower with that type of winding, but the inter-winding capacitance is much smaller and that is important in an isolation transformer.
   
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ION,

I agree with you here.  Perhaps more power is not needed for successful looping, but maybe it would be useful to have higher power levels to help solidify accurate measurements for easier confirmation the device has a COP>1. 

What is really interesting to me at this point is TK's preliminary proof of loaded external induction not affecting the input power in a negative way abut rather positively.  IOW, does this mean that induction by displacement current is basically one-way, no lenz effect?  I've wondered this for a long time and TK has shown an easy way to test this.  This may also be a path for successful looping.

Is this all beginning to somewhat resemble the FTPU to you?

The regenerative issue is a big thing and certainly deserves discussion.  I hope we reach these kinds of problems :)!

Pm

Agreed on all points, especially scaling this up for higher output should be part of the discussion.

Just driving it harder may just give the same COP, but at higher power levels. Part of the investigation needs to be alternate topologies that would increase the COP. Nevertheless the results look very good and are adequate for looping.

My reservations are with measurements, but outside of the two schematics presented way back, I can't come up with anything that would help at this point. (disclaimer: if anyone also did, I missed it)

The displacement current Lenzeless idea is interesting.

An LED by itself half wave loads the coil which can be good or bad, TBD.

I would like to see TK replace the LED with a "grain of wheat" lamp which he has eyeball pre-calibrated for approximate known brightness vs mW. Then down the road he could use the temp or brightness measuring methods we all know and enjoy.

Regards


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Not sure if this has been linked here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNzbc-N-e9c

TK has put a tremendous effort in here, and I know he holds no conclusions supporting any claims.

as Partzman is doing the same here...and Partzman's commitment and work to date is not really possible to measure [Tremendous investment in time and money [years long]

and still.. scientific Scrutiny is embraced and whole heartedly encouraged !

is there an error and where does it hide??

respectfully
Chet K
   
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The calculations are fine in your video.
The multiplication of two ADC quantization errors might introduce additional inaccuracies, especially if the ADCs are severely undersaturated.

Most of all, I still have doubts about the entire input current being "caught" by the R2a, especially the current due to the parasitic capacitance, that I've depicted in red below.  It would be more convincing if your measurement setup was more like on the attached schematic.


Way ahead of you, I see. Check the last series of results, now one page back.

Quote

Also, at the end where you loaded the bifilar transformer with a spaced monofilar pancake coil and an LED, I was expecting the calculation of the output power (at least out of the BPT) ....alas it never came :(

Didn't I have the LED on the whole time? (I actually can't remember at this moment, have to look again.)

Quote
P.S.
IIWY I would wind the isolation transformer to minimize the inter-winding capacitance (i.e. two separate windings, non-interlaced like in a CM Choke.).  I realize that the coupling coefficient is lower with that type of winding, but the inter-winding capacitance is much smaller and that is important in an isolation transformer.

Point taken. I don't know if I have another ferrite toroid of the same quality in my box but I'll look. No way am I taking this one apart to rewind it!
   
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Agreed on all points, especially scaling this up for higher output should be part of the discussion.

Just driving it harder may just give the same COP, but at higher power levels. Part of the investigation needs to be alternate topologies that would increase the COP. Nevertheless the results look very good and are adequate for looping.

My reservations are with measurements, but outside of the two schematics presented way back, I can't come up with anything that would help at this point. (disclaimer: if anyone also did, I missed it)

The displacement current Lenzeless idea is interesting.

An LED by itself half wave loads the coil which can be good or bad, TBD.

I would like to see TK replace the LED with a "grain of wheat" lamp which he has eyeball pre-calibrated for approximate known brightness vs mW. Then down the road he could use the temp or brightness measuring methods we all know and enjoy.

Regards

My order of "gow" bulbs just arrived in today's mail. They are 12 volt bulbs though, not like the really low voltage ones I remember from childhood. And I don't need to "eyeball" calibrate, I have a good lightmeter so I can actually do a lux vs. DC power kind of graph.

Just in case it got missed in the shuffle, here's my current schematic again.
   
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The calculations are fine in your video.
The multiplication of two ADC quantization errors might introduce additional inaccuracies, especially if the ADCs are severely undersaturated.

Most of all, I still have doubts about the entire input current being "caught" by the R2a, especially the current due to the parasitic capacitance, that I've depicted in red below.  It would be more convincing if your measurement setup was more like on the attached schematic.

Also, at the end where you loaded the bifilar transformer with a spaced monofilar pancake coil and an LED, I was expecting the calculation of the output power (at least out of the BPT) ....alas it never came :(

P.S.
IIWY I would wind the isolation transformer to minimize the inter-winding capacitance (i.e. two separate windings, non-interlaced like in a CM Choke.).  I realize that the coupling coefficient is lower with that type of winding, but the inter-winding capacitance is much smaller and that is important in an isolation transformer.

I'm in agreement with verpies, the parasitics do not have to show in R2a.

Bear in mind that the TBF is a transmission line and as it is being tested here, it is an open ended transmission line which will reflect a signal back up the line to the SG, as well as trying to find airborne paths to anything it can at the unconnected end.

While on its way back up the line it may create further currents into the load resistor.

 The currents do not necessarily have to flow through the CSR on the right, but can be airborne back to ground of the SG or isolation transformer if that is used. At 1 to 2 MHz this is not uncommon, especially in light of the unterminated line radiating like an antenna.

When the wave travels back up the line it will hit the SG  or isolation transformer and may have an effect on power input. To be sure measurement on the left of the circuit is possibly required, as well as in some way accounting for airborne coupling to ground.

Regards



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P.S. Smudge, Verpies: what do you think of the concept of morphogenesis and the 100th monkey effect. I have some ideas, but that should be on another thread.
How does your knowledge of physics explain it.
The number of monkeys being studied was 59, so the 100th monkey effect didn't exist, and the spread of information through the colony was quite normal.  So it's a man made legend.  Don't need physics to explain this.

Smudge
   
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The number of monkeys being studied was 59, so the 100th monkey effect didn't exist, and the spread of information through the colony was quite normal.  So it's a man made legend.  Don't need physics to explain this.

Smudge

As Johnny Carson would say "I did not know that!"
Imbibed too much Rupert Sheldrake, I guess.
Just goes to show some of us monkeys have a lot to learn!
As Lotka Gravas would say "thank you very much!"

Regards


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Geeze, this thread is racing forward at an incredible rate.  Take time off to tile the kitchen and suddenly there are three new pages.

A word of clarification on the current flowing in both directions at a point.  This is quite feasible but it means that point becomes a point-charge whose value is changing.  Move your observation either side of the point and there the charge flows only in one direction, either towards or away from the point.  (First time I've used the Change Color font menu, got carried away, sorry about that!)

Not easy to quantify unless the point has some dimension so it becomes a sphere, then the charge on the sphere is changing value and its potential can be calculated knowing the self capacity of the sphere or its mutual capacitance to another body.  Charge flowing both ways into or out of a region is a common feature of transmission lines where that region then has a changing potential associated with its changing surface charge.  Conservation of charge is obeyed.

Smudge 
   
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So to clarify Drawing "*annot3newCVRvideo1" was used in the video and "*annot4_1" is currently being tested?

Quote
My order of "gow" bulbs just arrived in today's mail. They are 12 volt bulbs though, not like the really low voltage ones I remember from childhood. And I don't need to "eyeball" calibrate, I have a good lightmeter so I can actually do a lux vs. DC power kind of graph.

Those may actually be a better impedance match and the cold resistance will be higher than the lower voltage bulbs (for the same luminance type).  This is good, won't bog the coil down too badly on starup.


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So to clarify Drawing "*annot3newCVRvideo1" was used in the video and "*annot4_1" is currently being tested?

Yes, that's right. In the video I used the R2a probe in its original position, and added the coupling transformer, and used the Cheepo-san DDS FG because of its frequency display for the video.

Now I've moved the CH2 probe and the common ground point and am back to using the higher power levels available from the Interstate (Racal-Dana) F43. Still using the coupling transformer of course.

And a few pages back I posted the current schematic, "proof of life" photos and two scopeshots showing the waveforms and the full trace data dump for a "typical" test at higher input power, so that the math could be checked.
   

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Hmmm,  i have received my Caddock non inductive 1% resistors (50 and 1 Ohm) and installed them, first making a bnc plug connection via a short (30cm) coax cable directly to my FG (no
toroid).

The COP > 1 dissappeared (well, @ 1Mhz i am left with cop = 1.03, rest of frequencies all below 1).


Then i reinserted the 1:1 toroid, isolating the FG ground and using TK's latest scheme (common ground point between R1 and R2, R2 signal reversed)

The COP went up right away reaching a COP = 4  @ 1Mhz.
When tightly inductively coupling (so back to back) a 2th TBP coil (in series connected with a LED) i get a COP = 10 when at 400KHz (2th TBP coil resonance) and with the led full on.

 
This cannot be right, so i will run these tests again tomorrow.

Probably i need to redo my 1:1 toroid as the present one has interwoven windings which need to be seperated each on its own half as i understand.

 
Itsu
   
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Hi Itsu

Quote
Probably i need to redo my 1:1 toroid as the present one has interwoven windings which need to be seperated each on its own half as i understand.

For minimum capacitance,  each winding on its own half of the core would be good. Also a low dielectric material between the winding and the core or anything that can keep the wire from touching the core, such as balsa wood segments or other low dielectric material, IOW, keep a thin layer of air between the windings and the core.

COP of 10 is amazing, you are ready to loop. O0 But be careful, use a small incandescent lamp limiter in feedback if you do.

BTW, the BNC to SG length not too critical, but the output of the core to the DUT should be as short as possible.

Good work!

Regards

 


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Hi Brad.

The coil L1 is open ended, I assume that it's capacitively connected to the other side.

I'm a novice here but do we know what the actual capacitance is? How would a variable air gap trimmer in the pF range look?

Isn't this entering the RF category at 1 MHz frequency?

Cheers Graham.

It would seem that it is both a capacitive and inductive coupling,where the small amount of capacitance is enough to start the inductive process.
The capacitance is enough to get a current to flow in the open L1 and closed L2,and then induction also starts to take place.

You can watch with your scope,which value is more. Either the current leads the voltage-more capacitive coupling,or the voltage leads the current-more inductive coupling.

Brad


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Here are test results of my Ver1 pcb MEI coils at low level and 1.5MHz with an isolation transformer as shown in the schematic.  I won't give my analysis but will leave that up to anyone who cares to critique the numbers and all input is welcome.  I will point out that the COP = infinity.

The first 2 scope pix show the measurements with the isolation transformer and both R2 and R3 sensing resistors in place.  CH2 is across the R2 sense resistor during this test.

The 3rd pix shows CH2 connected to R3 and measuring the current in the secondary of T2 or L5.  The measurement is inverted and compared to the stored R2 sense value in Ref2(wht).  The CH2-Ref2 difference is seen in the Math channel as 1.112mv rms.  The current in R3 leads the stored current in R2 by 2.851 degrees.

The 4th pix shows the same comparison as above except CH2 is not inverted and therefore is added to the saved R2 measurement with the sum being displayed in the Math channel as 1.076mv rms.  The R3 current is seen to lag the saved R2 current by 178.8 degrees.

For reference, 4-wire measurements on R1,2,and 3 resulted in 49.960 ohms, .994 ohms, and .997 ohms respectively.

Pm 
   

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 Infinity sounds good. Thanks for the awesome thread. Will be setting up my test tonight my FG is a portable battery one that only gets to 1mhz but will have a go anyway.
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Pardon my intrusions, but TK I did have a few questions regarding your video if you wouldn't mind indulging me:

1) Is there still L1/L2 coupling action (is there still some output power) if R2a is made infinite, i.e. an open?

2) What are the power calculations with 15-20 cycles on the screen (and appropriate memory depth/record length) and using "MEAN" and "RMS" rather than "Period" measurements?

3) What is the capacitance between L1 and L2?


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Hmmm,  i have received my Caddock non inductive 1% resistors (50 and 1 Ohm) and installed them, first making a bnc plug connection via a short (30cm) coax cable directly to my FG (no
toroid).

The COP > 1 dissappeared (well, @ 1Mhz i am left with cop = 1.03, rest of frequencies all below 1).


Then i reinserted the 1:1 toroid, isolating the FG ground and using TK's latest scheme (common ground point between R1 and R2, R2 signal reversed)

The COP went up right away reaching a COP = 4  @ 1Mhz.
When tightly inductively coupling (so back to back) a 2th TBP coil (in series connected with a LED) i get a COP = 10 when at 400KHz (2th TBP coil resonance) and with the led full on.

 
This cannot be right, so i will run these tests again tomorrow.

Probably i need to redo my 1:1 toroid as the present one has interwoven windings which need to be seperated each on its own half as i understand.

 
Itsu

Itsu,

Those are certainly impressive numbers!  You might take a look at my iso transformer for some additional ideas.  You could take two pieces of magnet wire and twist them to reduce the capacitance coupling yet retain the magnetic coupling.   Mine works fine at these frequencies with the ribbon cable.  Look forward to your continued testing.

Pm
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Partzman,

Are you obtaining strange results with your sim also? Strange results meaning COP>1? If so, have you posted a circuit with parameters?


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Pardon my intrusions, but TK I did have a few questions regarding your video if you wouldn't mind indulging me:

Don't be silly, we need your questions and "intrusions" badly.

Quote
1) Is there still L1/L2 coupling action (is there still some output power) if R2a is made infinite, i.e. an open?

Just so I  know exactly what you mean, can you please indicate this on a schematic?

Quote
2) What are the power calculations with 15-20 cycles on the screen (and appropriate memory depth/record length) and using "MEAN" and "RMS" rather than "Period" measurements?


The phase angle measurement is less accurate with that many cycles on screen, so here are 3 scopeshots. First, with a small number of cycles so you can see the phase angle more accurately, then the large number of cycles, and the complete data dump for that last one. You can "do the math" yourself....    ;)

(Rigol uses the word "average" instead of "mean" but they are the same thing numerically.)

By the way I have verified the accuracy of the Vp-p measurements against a DC standard, and using cursors have verified that the automatic phase angle measurement and the manual measurement using cursors at waveform zero crossings do agree, within a small error margin.

Quote
3) What is the capacitance between L1 and L2?

I assume you mean when everything is disconnected and both windings are left floating at the non-dot ends, with capacitance meter connected to the dot ends.
The capacitance measured this way is 2.19 nF.

   
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POYNT

Good to see you here, and diving into the fray. Hope you've been well, old friend.

I also have a few questions, but will wait until yours are answered to your satisfaction.

BTW, this thread is an interesting read from the beginning, if you have the time.

Kind Regards



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Here's another pair. (Separate acquisitions, that is, first I took the many cycle data dump, then I changed the timebase and recorded the 3-cycle shot. Separate live acquisitions, rather than just expanding the timebase on the first stored record.) So one could use the phase angle from the higher resolution shot and the rest of the numbers from the many-cycles shot, if desired.

A quirk of the Rigol is that screensaves to USB stick go much faster if the scope is Stopped, especially if there is a lot of action happening on the screen.

EDIT: don't forget that "Output Power" is now calculated as being across just the 18.8 ohm load, since the probe point for the 1.00 ohm CVR and ground reference point have moved.
So in that last shot we have the scope's Math Avg input power  = 51.0 mW  and the Pout = 1.352/18.8 = 96.9 mW, using the RMS numbers from the many cycles data dump.

EDIT 2: These last 5 scopeshots are done with the F43 FG, through the toroid coupling transformer, and with the LED load on the pickup coil glowing brightly.
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Just so I  know exactly what you mean, can you please indicate this on a schematic?
Perhaps I didn't think that through; i.e. if R2a is removed, where does the second FG lead (the iso transformer secondary) connect to? So forget about that question. You could test it I suppose with the lead hanging open (and R2a removed), but its doubtful there will be any output then.

Quote
The phase angle measurement is less accurate with that many cycles on screen, so here are 3 scopeshots.
The phase can be taken/noted when in close, before widening to a high number of screen cycles.

Quote
First, with a small number of cycles so you can see the phase angle more accurately, then the large number of cycles, and the complete data dump for that last one. You can "do the math" yourself....    ;)
What happened to the 4.6mW? It is now indicating 22mW. Is the Pout still 12mW?

Quote
(Rigol uses the word "average" instead of "mean" but they are the same thing numerically.)
I know, and I knew that you would know.

Quote
I assume you mean when everything is disconnected and both windings are left floating at the non-dot ends, with capacitance meter connected to the dot ends.
The capacitance measured this way is 2.19 nF.
Yes, I meant when they are both floating. Thanks.

You might wish to try replacing the PBF with a 2.2nF cap and repeating the tests.


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