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Author Topic: The Engine,and then the gas  (Read 17658 times)

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Here is a video showing how and where i inject my HHO into the engine.

Also do a compression test,and we are already at 13.6:1  :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t421kwdsXs


Brad


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Water plus fuel and Lithium soap ?

Hi Chet.

I couldn't say anything about Petrol/Gasoline with soap and water....

However, a one-off test with Diesel oil, washing up liquid and water with the fuel and oil ratio of 50/50 by volume ran my Petter AV 1 for several minutes.

Cheers Graham.


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Quote from: TinMan
As it turned out muDped,it's exactly as F6FLT states.
At just 10% water,i had to have the choke half on to
keep it running while the generator was loaded.

This decreased the run time for the 100ml of fuel by
nearly half of that of using gasoline.

At 15% water,i could not keep it running without full
choke,and that was only just.

Adding water to the combustion gasses like this did
not yield any positive result's-only negative ones.

Test done,and results had  O0

Many thanks for the testing TinMan.

It is true that in order to make use of Alcohol/Water
mixtures certain "adjustments" must be made.

To optimize performance requires that some other
modifications be done as well.

While at first glance the result attained may show
that Alcohol is a poor fuel replacement for gasoline,
it does present a challenge for further exploration.
With creativity and ingenuity it may be discovered
that certain conditions must be met...

Again, many thanks TinMan.  Well done!




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Perhaps not relevant to this topic, but....

I read this article many years ago from PJ Kelley, what's the concensus?


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I feel that with the modifications that Brad has done in his last video, to the engine that is, perhaps yet another urban myth could be either " busted " or proven true?

There was the mention of a rather " special " sparkplug, does anyone know if they were ever produced commercially?

Cheers Graham.


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last time I spoke with Johan  [the source of Lithium soap contribution for water and diesel [over 60% mix same power out on Dyno]

he was working on the next step....a 3 plug water motor....

should ring him for "tips"
   

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I feel that with the modifications that Brad has done in his last video, to the engine that is, perhaps yet another urban myth could be either " busted " or proven true?



Cheers Graham.

So i read the posted pictures of the paper,now my eyes hurt lol.
But almost sounds feasible  O0
I wonder what temperature the nano droplets would flash steam?
Once the flash steaming started,the pressure would increase rapidly,and also the temperature==a cascade effect.

Oh,just had a thought.
The more pressure you have,the higher the boiling point of water.
At 1 atmosphere,the boiling point is 100*C. At 145psi,that boiling point temperature rises to 184*C
At the moment,my compression pressure is 200psi-or 13.6:1

Quote
There was the mention of a rather " special " sparkplug, does anyone know if they were ever produced commercially?

Ah,i remember the firestorm spark plug's.
Back in my younger days,when fitting big cams to our engines,the firestorm spark plugs use to come with the cam kit. Cant remember if it was with the crow cam kit's,or the crane cam kits though.

There is another high performance plug you can buy--it's called the Brisk plug.
But (brain storm here) i think there is a better one again   ;)--i'll see if i can pick one up tomorrow O0

Now,im also wondering if we could place a cap across the spark plug,feed via a battery resistor combo,to get the !water spark plug ! effect ?-->i think we could  O0

Will give it a shot after the HHO testing is done Graham.
Perhaps just set the fogger back up,and turn the fuel off while it's running,and see what happens  :D

Perhaps we have been going about it all wrong.


Brad


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Like this Brad?

          :D

My apologies, I only have my aged iPad which doesn't lend itself well for transferring links to PDF's and the likes.

I can tell you, with all honesty, that we tried this with a Honda 50 motorcycle engine held in the workshop bench vice. I still laugh remembering Mathew standing on the bench kicking over the motor. Needless to say we didn't have any success, I blamed the ignition system at the time. With your setup and electric start, to boot, I don't think you'll have much trouble either way.

Cheers Graham.


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Like this Brad?

          :D

My apologies, I only have my aged iPad which doesn't lend itself well for transferring links to PDF's and the likes.

I can tell you, with all honesty, that we tried this with a Honda 50 motorcycle engine held in the workshop bench vice. I still laugh remembering Mathew standing on the bench kicking over the motor. Needless to say we didn't have any success, I blamed the ignition system at the time. With your setup and electric start, to boot, I don't think you'll have much trouble either way.

Cheers Graham.

Ok,i have come up with an idea for a plasma ignition booster(water spark plug) :D
Old Aaron the rookie will have a hissy fit lol-if it works.

Now,after some hunting,i have found a graph that shows peak gas temperatures reached in a cylinder in relation to compression ratio.

Now,it only go's up to a 10:1 compression ratio,and i have around 13:1 ATM,so i'll leave the peak temp calculation of my engine open ATM. But it looks as though it should be close to 500*C  :o


Brad


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Hi Brad

Some good work you are doing O0 I have attached a photo I took some time back of Stans engine, the compression ratio if I remember correctly was increased to 11:1, note where the HHO input is, it is the SS fexitube from the laser unit.

I would say it is more or less where you are putting it, of course he is not using petrol but only a gas vapor mixture ;)

I did have many photos but I had them removed from my computer.

Keep up the good work

Regards

Mike 8)


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Ok,i have come up with an idea for a plasma ignition booster(water spark plug) :D
Old Aaron the rookie will have a hissy fit lol-if it works.

Now,after some hunting,i have found a graph that shows peak gas temperatures reached in a cylinder in relation to compression ratio.

Now,it only go's up to a 10:1 compression ratio,and i have around 13:1 ATM,so i'll leave the peak temp calculation of my engine open ATM. But it looks as though it should be close to 500*C  :o


Brad

There you go Brad.

That graph says it all! If memory serves me right 15:1 ( Mr average for small/medium Diesels ) you're looking at a temperature of nearly 600 degrees Celsius.

As Mike has just written, the " Petrolheads " amongst us here are all enjoying the ride, thanks.   O0


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There you go Brad.

That graph says it all! If memory serves me right 15:1 ( Mr average for small/medium Diesels ) you're looking at a temperature of nearly 600 degrees Celsius.

As Mike has just written, the " Petrolheads " amongst us here are all enjoying the ride, thanks.   O0

I think that the compression increase of the VW was to 15:1, Graham sort of nudged my failing memory :'(

On that photo the pipes I am talking about are the ones you can just see (a little dark), you need to enlarge the photo to see them properly.

One is HHO, second is exhaust gases and the third is water vapor. The three electric valves are controlled for the right mix, the laser unit is to keep the H and O agitated (monoatomic), the air gives 78%N2 and 20.5% O2, the exhaust gases give N2O (nitrous oxide)  and some NH3 (ammonia), but the main thing is what happens with the high compression with this mix, a smaller explosion in what is already hot nitrogen expansion me thinks ^-^ a coctail in the right atmosphere.

Regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Ah, this series of experiments by TinMan are
getting quite "delicious!"  Answers to some
truly intriguing questions are no doubt forthcoming.

The one thing that is difficult with small engines is
devising some way to adjust ignition timing in order
to squeeze the absolute maximum power from the
various fuel combinations.

Fuels like alcohol and other high octane fuels demand
a much advanced spark due to their slower burn so
that maximum cylinder power pressure occurs just past
TDC.

TinMan has got the fuel/air mix ratio able to be adjusted
which is also exceedingly important for best performance.

This is getting really exciting to say the least!


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There you go Brad.

That graph says it all! If memory serves me right 15:1 ( Mr average for small/medium Diesels ) you're looking at a temperature of nearly 600 degrees Celsius.

As Mike has just written, the " Petrolheads " amongst us here are all enjoying the ride, thanks.   O0

I've been thinking a little about the flash steaming.
If a diesel engine already has the compression pressure and temperature,why won't it run on water mist ?

Do you have a small diesel Graham that you could try it on ?

As we seen,there was a definite increase in running the water mist into the engine in my test,but it would be good to work out why--what was the water mist doing to increase the efficiency?.
Was it flash steaming in the cylinder during the power stroke,causing a larger or longer gas expansion?
Or was it cooling the input gasses,resulting in a much denser/greater volume of gas entering the combustion chamber each cycle--much like an intercooler works.


Brad


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Hi Brad.

I'm not good with the actual " science " that governs the workings of the ICE, just know how to fix and run them!

I'd say it's a mixture of the two, the water droplets are helping to keep the air cooler on the induction stroke, more in the cylinder. Then upon combustion the steam generated increasing pressure upon the piston powe stroke.

I do have a medium sized single cylinder Diesel engine but it doesn't have electric start. I'm not strong enough to turn her over these days. I'll try and get one of the lads pressed into service.

Cheers Graham.


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Comment removed from this thread will be posted in more appropriate spot when experiments can be done
« Last Edit: 2019-05-16, 18:11:50 by Chet K »
   

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Well guy's,by the time i got home from work,set up the HHO system,and gave it a run,it was to late to film.

But i did do a couple of quick run's,and at this stage i am the bearer of bad news.

3 runs without the HHO,and cell off,i got 70 watt hours each time per 100ml of fuel
1st run with the HHO,i got 44 watt hours for our 100ml of fuel.
I then retarded the timing by 3*,ran the test again,and got 47 watt hours for our 100ml of fuel.
So far,we are loosing around 32% efficiency with the HHO. :o
The 3rd run without the HHO was with the timing retarded that 3*,and oddly enough it made no difference to the outcome,as we still got our 70 watt hours for the 100ml of fuel.

I will keep trying to tweak the system over the weekend,but it's not looking good ATM.
I was hoping for far better result's,but i have to deliver the truth,whether or not it is what we wanted to see.
I may actually have to much HHO going to the engine,and drawing to much from the generator?
The generator it self may become very inefficient once over a given power output?
But as it stands ATM,we are running a severe loss,and i do not see any tweaks that will give us back our lost 32%,or anything over that so as we actually have a gain.

I was thinking as to why i seen a gain all those years ago,and then it dawned on me-->i never tweaked that motor back then like i have this one. The other motor from the tests carried out years ago was in standard form,and the gain back then was far less than the gain i got in these tests simply by adding the variable main jet,and getting the mixture spot on. So the gain back then was most likely due to leaning of the fuel when the HHO started flowing into the motor.

Like i said,i will try tuning it better over the weekend,and get a video up for you to see,but it's not looking good.

But all is not lost with the water,as we got a 10.6% gain with the water mist/fog injection.
All we need is a way to create this mist with the motor,and not a power supply.
So any idea's on that would be welcome.

Sorry for the bad news guy's,but i have to be honest with myself and all of you guys,whether the outcome is good or bad..


Brad


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Hi Brad.

I'm not good with the actual " science " that governs the workings of the ICE, just know how to fix and run them!

I'd say it's a mixture of the two, the water droplets are helping to keep the air cooler on the induction stroke, more in the cylinder. Then upon combustion the steam generated increasing pressure upon the piston powe stroke.

I do have a medium sized single cylinder Diesel engine but it doesn't have electric start. I'm not strong enough to turn her over these days. I'll try and get one of the lads pressed into service.

Cheers Graham.

Set up a small pony motor to get that diesel spinning quick grun. That would be the easy way out  O0

Anyway,over the next week i will be building a hydraulic dynamometer,so as we can get some true HP and efficiency numbers. This will get rid of the generator losses we have ATM. O0

What im really interested in ATM is the water mist/fog injection,and we need a true account of power and efficiency increase with different amounts of water mist.

We need to somehow use the waste heat to make the water mist,so as it comes at not cost to the fuel efficiency.
Any idea's anyone?.


Brad


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Hi Brad.

I'm not good with the actual " science " that governs the workings of the ICE, just know how to fix and run them!

I'd say it's a mixture of the two, the water droplets are helping to keep the air cooler on the induction stroke, more in the cylinder. Then upon combustion the steam generated increasing pressure upon the piston powe stroke.


graham
From wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engine)

Quote: In a piston engine, the initial injection of water cools the fuel-air mixture significantly, which increases its density and hence the amount of mixture that enters the cylinder. The water (if in small liquid droplets) may absorb heat (and lower the pressure) as the charge is compressed, thus reducing compression work.[1] An additional effect comes later during combustion when the water absorbs large amounts of heat as it vaporizes, reducing peak temperature and resultant NOx formation, and reducing the amount of heat energy absorbed into the cylinder walls. This also converts part of combustion energy from the form of heat to the form of pressure. As the water droplets vaporize by absorbing heat, they turn to high pressure steam.

So,spot on my friend  O0


Brad


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Brad, that is indeed disappointing news!!   :'(

With regard to your earlier question, although " Steam " can be considered as water vapour it would need to be cooled drastically for our benefit, wouldn't it?

Perhaps we should consider the " scent spray " approach and atomise the liquid via compressed air? For automotive use virtually every Diesel engine'd car has a vacuum pump for the servo assisted brakes, use the exhaust!!  ;)
A Venturi perhaps? There's probably several ways to get our mist but those " fogger's " certainly do a damned good job for a few Watts.

Cheers Graham.


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Maybe this will help

http://www.vias.org/genchem/atommasses_12431_03.html

Read it carefully and you will see that at a constant temperature and pressure 2ltrs of hydrogen and 1ltr of oxygen will give you only 2ltrs of water vapor when detonated.

So we will lose 1/3rd of the volume when it is HHO to water mist, but we would gain 1ltr of volume if we were converting water mist to HHO O0 now you can see where your loss is quite easily ;)

So now you need to consider where in the stroke you create HHO and where do you detonate it all taking place in the cylinder.

Think hard about what I have said and the result after where you detonate the HHO, also if you are using petrol at the same time then things are going to get complicated because of one creating a vacuum and the other expansion all at the same time.

There is more on this but I do not think this is the right place to talk about it

Regards

Mike 8)



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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Quote from: TinMan
Sorry for the bad news guy's,but i have to be honest with
myself and all of you guys,whether the outcome is good
or bad..

Test results with new technologies can often be disappointing.
Now the thinking begins to figure out why and how to
overcome the seemingly negative result.

Often the solution is a matter of "tuning" to find the best
Air/Fuel mix and Spark Timing and amount of Water Injection
to complement the addition of HHO.

Others who've done similar testing have reported that with
HHO sometimes less accomplishes more but not always.
There seem to be several variables.

TinMan you've accomplished so much in such a short amount
of time.  It's a very challenging project and you're performing
"miracles" as the Prime Mover for this research.  We are all
very grateful for what you are doing and know that "at the end
of the day" a solution will be found.


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Maybe this will help

http://www.vias.org/genchem/atommasses_12431_03.html

Read it carefully and you will see that at a constant temperature and pressure 2ltrs of hydrogen and 1ltr of oxygen will give you only 2ltrs of water vapor when detonated.

So we will lose 1/3rd of the volume when it is HHO to water mist, but we would gain 1ltr of volume if we were converting water mist to HHO O0 now you can see where your loss is quite easily ;)

So now you need to consider where in the stroke you create HHO and where do you detonate it all taking place in the cylinder.

Think hard about what I have said and the result after where you detonate the HHO, also if you are using petrol at the same time then things are going to get complicated because of one creating a vacuum and the other expansion all at the same time.

There is more on this but I do not think this is the right place to talk about it

Regards

Mike 8)

Good morning Mike.

Well that explains why my little Leek ran so well.   O0

https://youtu.be/RwjTDXR31KA

The immediate vacuum that follows the expansion was using atmospheric pressure on the exhaust stroke.

Cheers Graham.


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It's turtles all the way down
Back in the early 90's, at the insistence of a friend I shelled out the cash to attend  Dennis Lee's demonstrations  in a large stadium, one of which was a large V8 running on HHO.

He claimed he detonated at bottom dead center and the vacuum produced pulled the pistons up. The engine ran well on pure HHO and he drank the exhaust water droplets. You can probably find these videos on line somewhere.

Another demo he did was an extended piston in a clear plastic cylinder pulling a large weight up when the HHO gas implosion took place.

So when mixing HHO with petrol, its implosion working against explosion as far as I can tell, just as Mike said.

Other things to consider:
Although the compression ratio can be increased on small engines, the castings, rods and pistons etc are not designed to take the increased explosive pressure and it will seriously shorten engine life. This is why diesels are so robust. Every hotrodder who has only paid attention to the top half of the engine with supercharging,  compression increase and valve timing, soon finds that he has blown the bottom half of the engine.

AFAIK, Adding water to diesel fuel is not a recommended practice as it can chew up piston heads from cavitation

Of course I am probably wrong about all this as my active motorhead days ended many decades ago, although presently I am rebuilding the top of a Toyota 4cyl VVT engine. Most other times I am just repairing small lawn tractor engines.

P.S. I know Dennis Lee is a bit of a shady character, but he puts on a good carnival act.


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Good morning Mike.

Well that explains why my little Leek ran so well.   O0

https://youtu.be/RwjTDXR31KA

The immediate vacuum that follows the expansion was using atmospheric pressure on the exhaust stroke.

Cheers Graham.

And therein lies part of the Stan Meyer secret.

Hi ion,

Well if you think hard about all this and add a little chemistry you can have power on "part" of the downstroke and also "part" of the upstroke, of course, your timings are going to have to be changed along with the camshaft, the exhaust valves open at +- 1/3rd the upstroke and close just before TDC as ion has said in his post.

The fast flame front of HHO is a problem, it has to be slowed so as the ignition is just before BDC, probably 2/3rds from TDC :-\ The relatively long intake stroke draws in the mix of HHO+H2O vapour+
recycled exhaust gas (mainly NO2+H2O) all controlled by 3 electric valves. The ignition was laser controlled because accuracy was very very important, that is why he changed it to his patented laser distributor ;) and I expect HF, VHV discharge.

Now I probably be damed for the rest of my life :'(

Regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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