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2019-03-22, 16:59:40
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Author Topic: Introduction and concept for 3d magnetic field visualiser  (Read 8270 times)
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Thank you for your input Slider,
There are cheaper chips for 5 bucks but the 14 dollar 90393 is important as it will handle high gauss and has excellent internal calibration settings and can be i2c addressed. and later SPI  as more response may be required.


The code is what runs on the arduino nano to send the xyz data to the pc .

The PC displays the graphic and does need to be large.
A different processing program on the pc displays the bunny .
 ,calling for the xzy values from the usb com port.

The first step is a single unit in the centre (hand held or mounted in the centre of the device being tested /built.
Bunny rotate is the best example

The implications for all kinds magnetic research are obvious
Anybody curious as to how a coil or a series of coils may interact with the field that is already there should get a lot just from making a single unit .

It is my contention that it will enable intuitive research ,a tool that has never been available before .
I would suggest that we have been working in the dark ,having said that ,this would not need to be calibrated ,rather orientated.

You could have a beeper sound when the 6 external field sensors behave in a certain way ...so many possibilities and


sensing field rotation at a distance around the unit being tested will show the kind of influence that SM and Spherics has indicated as important.
There would be no doubt that your generated field is rotating and would avoid boom and bust scenario as well being able to use safe voltages ,as 99% of people, for their own good reasons avoid .

It would encourage analogue  wave forms  from multiple sources  allowing a control unit to be built in the neutral space in the middle

These things are exactly like gyro chips in the way they output data xyz..


All of this assumes that is possible to"tune into magnetism "
I like to imagine that it may be possible to sail on the field or in the field
And any body  cares to  see the invisible world of mag fields ,rather than a hand and thumb  like in kinder-garden.

Does a spinning/rotating /modulated  mag  field have inertial properties under certain conditions?


Here is some study material that is relevant
https://hackaday.io/project/11865-3d-magnetic-field-scanner

« Last Edit: 2018-03-06, 08:29:31 by 3D Magnetics »
   
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http://www.rotoview.com/sensor_kinetics.htm

member Hope at Stefan's shared this today

here http://overunity.com/17633/smart-phone-magnameter-app/msg517785/#new

[sorry if similar was already mentioned]

 to note, I have been told that there are other portable devices available to do this ,view the magnetic field [not certain of cost]

will have to ask for more info.

respectfully
Chet K
   
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A good subject Chet,
Dumbing it down to a 2 dimensional  APP would be the wrong direction as we need to develop external integration of multiple sensors as the comments suggest.
A small screen would not achieve the goal ...but should inspire what i propose here in the first post.
That is not to say  a vr environment will not apply later as / if we learn .
Like so many things we tend to shoot for the stars when we know so little of what is under our feet .
3D is key ..Im sorry  i have to repeat it . The screen in front of you will do it .single raw magnetometer data to start with.
Shopping for apps might be  fun however and that is the problem in this age of delightenment.
All of this is probably too late as everything is packaged and upsold.
I am not harping on about high voltages and electron tubes at least !
This is also not a control circuit but a means to get to first base in a collaborative way ,which protects everybody .

This is about building one ...please respect the aim and intent of building one here .
There are too many cases of people having momentary success yet not knowing what is happening .

WE do know that rotation of  fields are important
I will assume that noisy signals are unpredictable even in one dimension


some relevant material is here if you are interested in participating physically
https://hackaday.io/project/11865-3d-magnetic-field-scanner
« Last Edit: 2018-03-06, 09:06:37 by 3D Magnetics »
   
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... .-.. .. -.. . .-.
Have bought this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CJMCU-90393-MLX90393-Digital-3D-Hall-Sensor-Displacement-Angle-Rotate-3D-Positio/112460263873
 O0

It's going to be 3 weeks or so before it arrives, but there are several projects here in front of it all.
Am going to d/l Processing and have a look...(for the several years i've built stuff with uc's it hasn't featured).
Oh, of possible related relevance - system here is a tower PC, Q6600, Linux Mint 18.2
All in all, yes this needs to happen and it needs to be at a price point that all can afford.
Do you have a Github space set up ?
The need will be to share, manage, improve code and to have test environments in various locations that can verify results. Well, I know you've thought this through, am just looking at pitfalls that often stop development, as stated.   



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Have bought this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CJMCU-90393-MLX90393-Digital-3D-Hall-Sensor-Displacement-Angle-Rotate-3D-Positio/112460263873
 O0

It's going to be 3 weeks or so before it arrives, but there are several projects here in front of it all.
Am going to d/l Processing and have a look...(for the several years i've built stuff with uc's it hasn't featured).
Oh, of possible related relevance - system here is a tower PC, Q6600, Linux Mint 18.2
All in all, yes this needs to happen and it needs to be at a price point that all can afford.
Do you have a Github space set up ?
The need will be to share, manage, improve code and to have test environments in various locations that can verify results. Well, I know you've thought this through, am just looking at pitfalls that often stop development, as stated.
Thank for your input Slider ,
Those are exactly what I am using .
I would rather we did everything here as the code we will use will be easy to paste or zip up .
there will only be 2 main packages ...the arduino code ,to communicate  and the host code (processing or python)to display
It should not matter pc or linux from what i understand .

I know that we would have to agree on the libraries used and there are so many libraries with the same name it could be confusing for some ..i have been caught out too many times .

I would rather steer away from using 3rd party repositories and keep it all here with forum members at least for the development period. And it would be open to all members ,even the public.
a zip package with libraries and running code should not be too large at first.
It may be possible not to use anything but the common wire library? My skills here are fairly low so no, i have not though this through beyond knowing that this tool will be required for continuity when testing coil arrangements .
As far as coding is concerned I can make things work but very untidy an as my health is poor my brain function varies randomly.
I once wrote a program that was 3 pages long (commodore 64) i showed it to my brainiac friend and he reduced it to 12 lines .
I worked the same but was not ever critical on memory or execution speed.

RE my health
Chronic fatige syndrome is the best that the medical profession can do ,but I keep looking even if they don't /can't.

I even wonder if screwing about with hv and spin fields may be bad for health and there is some evidence of this .
Many people have contacted me over the years warning of health issues .

Otto's death was one where the timing cannot be excluded.

Gk made a ring that scared him enough to want to put it in a microwave oven .

SM had throat cancer and also questioned the health implications .

That is why it is important to be able to work with low velocities and low voltages . And to be able to see the field of influence .

Whatever we do it can not be in the magnetic darkness we currently work in.

There may be medical implications here both positive and negative .

There are many articles on NMR which are inspiring and educational but focused on body imaging only.

But it is help i /we require and can I ask what the pitfalls of keeping it all here might be  ?
As we move forward just keep ver1. 1.01 1.02 etc so that any body can go back or forwards.
I would possibly get out of hand but we could change it as the problem develops .
For now it is small and we need to think of something better than a rabbit spinning ...though it is easy to see.

The outer field ring as a multi coloured torus ?...six rabbits wont do it but it it would be the starting point.
I mean 7 counting the middle one.

While im at it, i can explain why 6 .
Imagine a cube with six faces all with an arrow pointing a single point any where within the cube .
It takes 6 to be accurate ...except we are detecting the field disturbance from that virtual single point which make it possible to spin tilt and tumble, raise and lower, the outer ring in a virtual space ..the computer screen .
It is simple yet  complex and easy to over think .
There are many iterations of reference that will grow as understanding progresses ...but simply it is 7 sets of xyz axies.
A common zero button will be important .

The spacing of the 6 sensors will be up to the user but at few meters they detect a neo magnet easily
,and can be gain adjusted for all axies,they would be top/bottom/left/right/back/front ...luckily they all have different first letters......oh and c for centre.



I know it takes time to get these things in the mail ,one lot took 5 weeks (aliexpress seller)
I also know that one you get one up and running ...you will share in my enthusiasm.

Thanks
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... .-.. .. -.. . .-.
Perfectly fine to post the code here....I prefer it, hopefully others too.
It's just the amount of things that seem to be on Github, like Sourceforge used to be. Knowing you wish to post here is perfect for the project, because it allows for a history, for the latest code to be the last version posted and can show folks in the future how it progressed to whatever point it's at when they take an interest.
Very often in my own coding, a section may begin to give troubles after a feature is added and i'll load up a previous version, to redo whatever it was from that point. The new code then works and gets the newest version number. The thread might well work in that way too.

Sorry to hear about the cronic fatigue. Am not sure if I have something similar. About 5 years ago something bit the lower of one leg and it all went rock solid on the calf to about the diameter of the base of a large pills bottle. It lasted for about 2 months and slowly faded. After that, even getting to the mailbox can leave the legs completely tired out and so sluggish that it's like dragging them using the hips. But, other times a half mile run may be possible (am 48). Best guess is some form of tick got me, or a spider.

For magnetic issues, yep, can relate there. Personally I have troubles if messing with neodymiums when perhaps rewinding an RC motor. Strong field changes and exposure that's above a few minutes, which I would imagine is a common problem. 

A library may offer a shortcut and the Adafruit ones are normally good and reliable. But am simply thinking about no need to reinvent the wheel.
Speaking of which: https://github.com/tedyapo/arduino-MLX90393
There seem to be a couple of different libraries.
A library could be used as is, or studied and part replicated. Am thinking of the MIDI library for an example of that, where only parts of it may need to be used. Whereas a TFT screen library may need everything.


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The MLX90393 has arrived.
Will be having a look at it over the next couple of days :)


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Good news Slider,
Im not very with it of late but will be better soon i hope.

I have excellent information that a cause or effect was a coriollis type magnetic effect that reduced to null in the middle and fell off at distance .

It was never discovered for certain which was cause or effect but the structure of out known world suggests both.

Im sure you will get inspired once you start seeing how responsive thse things are .
   
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I would like to pose a basic scenario to the brains trust here in hope that there may be some better equipped mentally than myself.

Does a transformer driven by an ac or dc signal of single phase and source from single supply, saturate and desaturate the same as one that is driven from split supplies or  polarity reversed single supplies like a h bridge?

My question relates to wether we are in fact failing to interact with our surroundings by not understanding the difference and more importantly not applying it .

I could be wrong, as well as niave ,but perhaps we are missing one comlete half of what is important?
push pull tecniques were emphasised by SM on several occasions .
As was field rotation .

   
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It's turtles all the way down
3D asked:
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Does a transformer driven by an ac or dc signal of single phase and source from single supply, saturate and desaturate the same as one that is driven from split supplies or  polarity reversed single supplies like a h bridge?

Do you mean symmetrical saturation / de-saturation?

I would think a single ended supply source of AC should saturate and de-saturate a transformer symmetrically if the amplifier or oscillator output driving the transformer is capacitance coupled to the transformer.

I think in any case it boils down to current drive and drive reduction both forward and reverse required to saturate/de-saturate the transformer,

however a transformer will automatically de-saturate if the driving single ended supply is disconnected or if forward current is reduced.

If the supply is slowly brought to zero current, there may be some remanence in the core when the transformer comes out of saturation.

This and other factors can result in "flux walking" which can cause early saturation on subsequent cycles.

We have not yet touched upon loading effects on the secondary of the transformer and how this affects saturation.

Maybe if you state the idea or what you have in mind in another way or draw a simple set of schematics we can pitch in some ideas.

What is it would you like to do or try or have in mind? We can test it for you.

Regards


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I was looking at this thread from the start and was intriged by this.
I bought the sensor and have some arduino's, so was kind of waiting for the thread to develope, but things stalled
rather quickly after a promising start.


So i was looking on the net for some sketches which could be used.
But almost the only one is the one mentioned in post #1 which can be found here:

http://www.arduinoprojects.net/sensor-projects/connecting-mlx90393-magnetic-field-sensor-arduino-uno.php#codesyntax_1


This website shows the connections and how to display the outcome,
so thats what i did, see video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCGvBwM5n3I


So the seriel monitor show repeatedly the values of the 3 axis, so now we need to build on that further to
get a more sophisticated visualisation.


Any programming guru's still interested?


Regards Itsu
   

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interesting stuff.

If you were to make a cube matrix, then maybe have the sensors just light 3 color leds, local to each sensor position. Like those cube matrix led kits. Once you get one sensor module working then make a bunch.  No programming. real time. Watch the field of a coil and magnet when pulsing or varying coil input.

The color changing view would give a kind of different way of seeing the fields rather than seeing them as lines. May be helpful. And could be programmed to do so as well where the program could take averages between sensors to show a solid field on a screen.

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So the serial monitor show repeatedly the values of the 3 axis, so now we need to build on that further to
get a more sophisticated visualisation.

Any programming guru's still interested?

Regards Itsu

I don't know about guru, but I whipped together a quick demo for you that *should* work with the setup you're describing, assuming you have a relatively standard Arduino and computer set up.


For efficiency, you can modify your arduino code as follows:
- Change Serial.begin(9600);  to  Serial.begin(57600);
- Change "Magnetic field in X-Axis:" to just "X : "      (likewise for Y and Z)
- Change delay(500);      to delay(20);

I don't have a magnetometer chip handy so you will have to be my beta-tester to see if it works right (or at all) ^-^ O0

If all works well, it should be fairly easy to modify and expand to whatever purposes we're looking for.  (LED visualizer, etc)


Mag Field Visualizer prototype code:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=17QSrOkvh3JUlxviBcByrqdJENGHbY4x0
   

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Hi Mags, Reiyuki,


Thanks for the interest.

I have made these changes to the code:

- Change Serial.begin(9600);  to  Serial.begin(57600);
- Change "Magnetic field in X-Axis:" to just "X : "      (likewise for Y and Z)
- Change delay(500);      to delay(20);


Now the serial monitor shows:

Z : -37
X : -82
Y : -3
Z : -34
X : -76
Y : -3
Z : -36
X : -74
Y : -7
Z : -36
X : -79
Y : -5
Z : -33
X : -76
Y : -2
Z : -38
X : -79
etc.  (had to adjust the monitor speed to 57600 also).

About the "MagFieldVisualizer", i have downloaded and unzipped the files.
MagFieldVisualizer starts ok, but without changing anything in the "input", no movement is seen (by moving the mouse).
But the big arrow should probably be the result of the x, y, and z inputs combined to show the major direction i guess.

Guess we now need to use the serial monitor data (x, y, z) as input for your programm.
Using Com5 at the moment.

Thanks,   Itsu

   

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Hi Mags, Reiyuki,


Thanks for the interest.

I have made these changes to the code:

- Change Serial.begin(9600);  to  Serial.begin(57600);
- Change "Magnetic field in X-Axis:" to just "X : "      (likewise for Y and Z)
- Change delay(500);      to delay(20);


Now the serial monitor shows:

Z : -37
X : -82
Y : -3
Z : -34
X : -76
Y : -3
Z : -36
X : -74
Y : -7
Z : -36
X : -79
Y : -5
Z : -33
X : -76
Y : -2
Z : -38
X : -79
etc.  (had to adjust the monitor speed to 57600 also).

About the "MagFieldVisualizer", i have downloaded and unzipped the files.
MagFieldVisualizer starts ok, but without changing anything in the "input", no movement is seen (by moving the mouse).
But the big arrow should probably be the result of the x, y, and z inputs combined to show the major direction i guess.

Guess we now need to use the serial monitor data (x, y, z) as input for your programm.
Using Com5 at the moment.

Thanks,   Itsu

Thanks for testing (I hoped we'd get lucky on the first run).
Only thing now is to try having the arduino plugged-in before starting the program.

I'll make some sanity-checking and automation and tweaks if/when I get some time later today. ;)
   

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I had/have the arduino plugged in and running when starting your program.

So do i understand it correctly that your program already should work?
No need to change any input?
I do not see any reference to the arduino or its serial monitor (where the data is) in your program.
What do i use to start your program?  Using MagFieldVisualizer.exe  now.

Anyway, take your time, i can test whenever you are ready  O0


Itsu

 
« Last Edit: 2018-12-30, 21:04:09 by Itsu »
   

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Thanks GK,

i was looking to get this serial monitor data imported into EXCEL, and found "PLX-DAQ".

This seem to work as PLX-DAQ / EXCEL seems to "see" the data coming from my COM5 port (close the serial monitor first).

But it needs some control statements in that data to know what to do with it.

The format is something like:   "DATA,", DEC Val1, ",", DEC Val2, CR

But the trick is to seperate in the data stream these control statements from the axtual X, Y and Z data.

This website contains info and a link to PLX-DAQ:
https://robottini.altervista.org/arduino-and-real-time-charts-in-excel


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Great addition to Arduino and Excel!
Actually cant you spit out the Arduino data to the terminal in the x,y,z format you want then just scrape the terminal window for the file?
This way you have three columns to match the input of the excel graphing.
I mention this way as a precursor than going whole hog into developing an app so you don't get painted into a corner like you just found with the capture package you are using?
Just create your own csv format i.e. x,y,z data only. Get to the graphing as quick as possible to nix out any gotchas, as in minimal effort.
One can always make what works pretty but making something pretty work can be like marriage. :-* >:-) :'( LOL. I had to go there.

What am I doing wrong with my posts. I keep having to enter html codes to get line feeds, spacing and carriage returns? I feel like i am using a teletype on the internet. Is there a forum option to turn on formatting?
Testing format change. I think I found the formatting change. WYSIWYG option unchecked. Left this here for prosperity sake.


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OK,  just changed the Arduino code to modify the Serial.print statements to print the X, Y and Z on one line and
incorperate the PLX-DAQ control statements:

// Output data to serial monitor
Serial.print("DATA, TIMER");
Serial.print(", ");
Serial.print(xMag);
Serial.print("   , ");
Serial.print(yMag);
Serial.print("   , ");
Serial.print(zMag);
Serial.println("  ,CR");

The output now (from PLX-DAQ Excel) looks like: 

TIMER           X-axis       Y-axis    Z-axis

90:33:45        -57,00      -111     30
99:00:00        -56,00      -107     29
99:11:15        -58,00      -107     25
106:52:30      -53,00      -104     30
111:28:07      -55,00      -108     30
111:28:07      -59,00      -107     28

Using a simple graph it shows the below kind of output (moving a magnet around the sensor):
My Excel does not have sophisticated 3D graps functions, but one can buy some 3D graps/plots add-on's like linked above by Giantkiller. 

Looking into that now.

Itsu


   

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Buy me a drink
@Itsu, Sweet, dude! Oh yeah. Life is good!
Happy New Year!
Tis a grand time to be alive on this little rock in the sky!
Keep rollin...

So the next data point is the magnet sits at 0,0,0 then the plots will transverse around by their individual measurement data. And we can see the true spatial volumetrics of the field. Bam!
Of course it would be nice to have each side of the measurement cube with 64 sensors each. Ah yes, the future unfolds before our very eyes...
That equates to 64 times 6 which is 384 measurement points. And with the link that 3Dmagnetics posted is 384 * 6.25 = $2400.00. We need strips of these on a roll!
That number of sensors then needs an addressable bus assembly.

I repost link: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/CJMCU-90393-MLX90393-digital-3D-Holzer-sensor-displacement-angle-rotation-3D-position/32829326091.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.2.5f2db7357gnvm2&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10152_10151_10065_10344_10130_10068_10342_10547_10343_10340_10548_10341_10084_10083_10618_10307_10131_10132_10133_10313_10059_10534_100031_10103_10627_10626_10624_10623_10622_10621_10620,searchweb201603_37,ppcSwitch_3&algo_expid=b3ac6cd9-cf2e-4e98-9905-10947e761d7d-0&algo_pvid=b3ac6cd9-cf2e-4e98-9905-10947e761d7d&transAbTest=ae803_5&priceBeautifyAB=0

And a mounting frame with variable spatial control. Well lookee here!: https://www.google.com/search?q=expandable+cage+ball&client=firefox-b-1&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=4MBZuZ3QJkoD4M%253A%252CYMoZbvOxvuU18M%252C_&usg=AI4_-kRI9Gme8esAxOUs7mSvk1pSUwIPLA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjkzsvshM3fAhVV_oMKHbgSAL4Q9QEwA3oECAUQCg#imgrc=4MBZuZ3QJkoD4M:
This cage ball has to be what looks like 32 green axial connections. A good place to mount a sensor. Cuts cost down to $1200.00 in sensors. Just throwing out data here to track the development growth process.

The expandable area can then be used to balance amperage levels with resonance / impedance.
Now imagine if you will using this measurement system to track the nodes and antinodes of power reflections along a run of FE wire.
Sounds like harmonic destructive forces to me.

I smell a GOFUNDME project for saving the world.

To reduce costs even further the system can incorporate a rotation platform for either the test object or the sensor array.
A 360 degree single rotation is all that is needed as the platform axial rotation direction can be reversed and the data log can produce a Y axis directional data point also.
Now the sensor array can be reduced to 8 units which equates to ~$60.00.
Put a button switch on the Arduino caputer circuit and rotate the platform by hand incrementally. This would initially save the costs of incorporating a platform rotation drive system.
https://www.instructables.com/id/Desktop-CT-and-3D-Scanner-With-Arduino/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email
This then defines the resolution. The speed of the sensor detection, the frequency of the field and the Y axis rotation speed / incremental steps.
With this approach the cage ball frame would not be necessary as the distance of the sensor and the test object can be increased or decreased by a simple act of placement.
The final model now has 8 sensors in a curved brace and a manual lazy Susan type platform. This is really cheap, like under $75.00!
This final model also negates the single turn platform. I am thinking of  the test object as a powered, wired device, like a coil.
The test object is spun to 359 degrees then rotated back to zero to start the incremental snapshot process all over again.
Each button press generates a new line of data.
« Last Edit: 2019-01-01, 17:56:05 by giantkiller »


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Once you gain the appreciation of how fast and sensitive these devices can be made to be It will open the posibilities.

it is important to set the devices sensitivity to match the field intensity of interest  .
mine can measure a neomagnet influence  from 2 metres away

I used processing for the gui but there are python and a few other ones out there ...all abit of pain to configure .

real time instant display response with one chip is thre  first step and axis calibration can be done with the gui then inputting the numbers back to the arduino . Search for arduino magnetometer calibration .

It is very interesting and far far superior to using compasses which have inertia making them almost useless.


thanks for the interest guys . we need to be on the same page with programming environments for both the arduino and the
display.
 Processing was what has worked for me  but there are so many versions .the earlier versions are often more compatible than the later ones I suggest arduino 1.5 to start with . and processing 2.2

   
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Of interest and possibly of importance to this envevour.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkhausen_effect

and

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/06cc/5bec5a13f2dd333388f69a7c5ec58984ec5d.pdf

But lets not get ahead of things too much as having common configurations is of more importance at this stage .

If a few of us can have just one device spinning a 3d object using the same code ,that will be a good beginning .

Im under the impression that being able to see the field rotation in the centre of a device and from a few metres surrounding it will be
useful ... no essential to manipulating any effect created .

The  xyz values only  need to be changing relative to each other and don't saturate the sensor .
Its is one vey good reason to use the 90393 .



Cheaper sensors do work but everyone on the same page with this is important as there are a lot of internal programmable conditions
that are complex ,to me at least.

Its wonderful to have these devices and it is surprising that one has not been developed as it has other applications.

   

Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1642

Thanks for the info guys, but i am afraid that this is as far as i can bring it.

My knowledge on how to visualize the magnetic field is almost zero, and i lack the energy to start a study on this.

Therefor my question earlier in this thread for knowledgeable people to step in.

I have the X, Y and Z outputs in either the arduino serial monitor or in an Excel spreadsheet and i am, up to
now, unable to locate a sophisticated 3D graph add-on for excel that does what i (we) want (show dynamically the
present magnetic field).

Some add-ons crash my Excel, some do not do what i want, and some are asking money.


So i will be looking for a simple solution, but i don't expect any breakthrough soon.


Thanks,   regards Itsu 
   
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