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Author Topic: Smudge proposed NMR experiment replication.  (Read 105579 times)

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If you cannot buy Litz cloth easily or cheaply, don't bother waving it by hand - it's just too much work. 
You can get away with winding several layers of very thin wire (or cheap frayable Litz wire consisting of many thin enameled wires) on some kind of a flexible hose, that is not a part of the system, but has the diameter >= to O.D. of the toroidal winding's crossection. You can wind it using a motorized drill with a stiff rod inside the hose*, because it will easily have 10 thousand turns.  After winding it, bend the hose into the circle of the same average diameter as the toroidal coil ...thus creating another toroidal coil that would cover it.  Make sure you cannot see the hose through the wires (IOW: the hose is completely covered with wires after bending) - this consideration determines how many layers you should wind on the hose.

Varnish the winding on the bent hose to fix its shape.
After the varnish cures, cut the winding in half circumferentially, using a knife or "dremel" micro saw, so you obtain two separate concave circles (a top one and a bottom one).  Don't fray the edges of the cut, too much.
Remove the hose. It will be easy to separate because the two halves of winding will not hug it closely anymore.
Coat with solder one circular edge of on top winding half, and the circular edge of the bottom winding half. Do not coat the edges deeply, only the very ends of the wires.
Solder the two halves together with a circumferential solder bridge over the RX toroidal coil (insulating kapton tape between them). Do not complete the bridge all the way around - you can't do it anyway because you have the water tube inlet in the way.
In other project you would go only 359ยบ around and leave a small gap,  or make a small circumferential overlap (better).


* Here is a calculation how long it would take to wind the thin wire on a hose using a motorized drill at 300rpm.
« Last Edit: 2020-10-17, 01:18:39 by verpies »
   

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Ok, i see what you mean.

So its not enough to just put some fabric between the pancake and the toroidal coil, it has to fully encapsulate the toroidal coil.

There are some shielding woven fabrics out there, but not so much litz cloth (quick look).

What about using the outer shielding of thick coax cable, then follow your modification?

Itsu
   

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So its not enough to just put some fabric between the pancake and the toroidal coil, it has to fully encapsulate the toroidal coil.
Yes, it is enough if the flat shielding Litz fabric extends well beyond the pancake coils, but encapsulating the toroidal coil is more effective and uses less of this shielding fabric ...and easier to do if you cannot buy this fabric pre-made.
I got mine on Alibaba, from a company that was making all kinds of fabrics...mostly cotton ones for T-shirts ;)  They must've just substituted a thin enameled copper wire for the usual cotton yarn in their loom.

There are some shielding woven fabrics out there, but not so much Litz cloth (quick look).
The fabric must be made out of individually insulated wires because if it is not, then circular eddy currents will flow and oppose the HF magnetic fields. We don't want that!
We want to shield only the E-field, not the H-field.

What about using the outer shielding of thick coax cable, then follow your modification?
If this particular coax has its shield made with individually insulated strands, then you could use it.
..but the goal of the shield in the common coax is to confine both the E-fields and HF H-fields, so I doubt that it is using a shield that lets the high-frequency H-Field through.
« Last Edit: 2020-07-07, 16:38:58 by verpies »
   

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Ok,  i got it,   individually insulated strands is key.

Itsu
   

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When injecting a sweeping signal (3 turns) in the toroidal coil (pancakes fysically there, but open) plus 100pF parallel trimmer cap, i have a nice single resonance peak varied between 2.6 and 4Mhz.

Using the pancakes as injection point (bucking), i have a similar resonance peak as above (slightly lower), but also a 2th resonance peak around 7 to 7.8Mhz, so shorter range.
EDIT, Using the pancakes as injection point (aiding),   i have a similar resonance peak as above, but also a 2th resonance peak but around 8.8 to 9.8Mhz.
Using 1 pancake coil at a time then there is 1 resonance peak again, around 4Mhz.


So the 2th resonance peak seems to come (reflection?) from the both pancake coils when in series.


I did not measure the new reduced pancake coils for inductance, all @ 100Khz:

PC1: 22.1uH
PC2: 22.3uH
series bucking: 30.6uH
series aiding: 57.7uH


Itsu 
« Last Edit: 2020-07-07, 17:04:12 by Itsu »
   

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When injecting a sweeping signal (3 turns) in the toroidal coil (pancakes physically there, but open)...
Tell me more about the orientation of these 3 turns with respect to the toroidal coil.

So the 2th resonance peak seems to come (reflection?) from the both pancake coils when in series.
What about these 2 pancake coils having slightly different self-resonance frequencies and them beating again each other ?
   

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Tell me more about the orientation of these 3 turns with respect to the toroidal coil.

3 turn loop directly over the toroidal coil as second layer, so max coupling.


Quote
What about these 2 pancake coils having slightly different self-resonance frequencies and them beating again each other ?

yes, ( (f1+f2) and (f1-f2) )  i was thinking about that and it probably has something to do with it, but then the 2th range ( (f1+f2) ) would not be shorter.

Itsu
« Last Edit: 2020-07-07, 21:15:21 by Itsu »
   

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I made this graph from the 9.csv file from yesterday.
I notice some differences between your graphs, can you explain how you modified that data so it gives similar output as yours?
Basically I normalize the fuchsia data to the max peak, assuming that this peak is as close to the zero impedance as this gets.  Anything below this peak I treat as an attenuation of the primary LC circuit.
Next, I divide the blue measurement  by the primary attenuation just computed.

The above applies to linear magnitudes.
To do the same with logarithmic magnitudes (dBmV), I normalize the fuchsia peak to 0dB and subtract it from the blue instead of dividing by it, because subtracting logarithmic magnitudes is equivalent to dividing linear magnitudes. See here.

Also, note that the magnitudes in the red plot, which I have posted, were linear.

There is a way to do all this without the csv math by using some fake calibration of the SA.
To do that, just normalize/calibrate it using the fuchsia setup and then do the blue measurement with this fake calibration*.  This way, the frequency response of the primary LC circuit will be automatically cancelled out by the SA's correction/calibration algorithm and the result will be the red measurement.

I preferred to calculate the csv data by hand to see what was happening and to have the current probe's frequency response calibrated out, too.
A much better way would be to put a 10MHz Hall magnetic sensor between the pancake and toroidal coil, because the data from such sensor (when properly oriented) would not include the effects of current flowing between the turns of the pancake coil (through the interwinding capacitance) but such HF magnetic sensors are very hard to obtain. The usual ones top out at 1MHz.


* This assumes that the current probe has a constant amplitude vs. frequency response.
   

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yes, ( (f1+f2) and (f1-f2) )  i was thinking about that and it probably has something to do with it, but then the 2th range ( (f1+f2) ) would not be shorter.
The resonances we are measuring most likely can be explained by loop antenna theory. This article is a helpful refresher.  The spacing between the pancake coils would be responsible for the higher frequency peak we are observing.

Anyway, I just remembered that you are an old Ham and you should have some ham receivers sitting around.
I wish it would be be possible to experiment with the half-dipole receiving antenna (for sensing the E-field) and full loop antennas (for sensing the H-field) in the near & far field, when the pancake coil acts as the transmitter.  This would allow you to easily evaluate E/M ratio and the effectiveness of the E-Field shielding.
Unfortunately the antennas needed for this are not practical since the wavelengths we are dealing with are on the order of 100m.  Maybe you could stretch two 25m wires needed for the half-wave dipole into your friendly neighbor's garden ...but building a 30m diameter full-wavelength loop, would be just too much.
   

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Thanks for the csv data explanation, i could try that "fake calibration of the SA" as it would give me a quick look for improvement or not when doing changes.

Ok about the 2th resonance point, so its more going into loop antenna theory direction (nice article).
I could experiment with the distance between the 2 pancakes to see how they react.


When i moved to my present house i knew i would not have the possibility to erect any antennas, so i kind of abandoned the HAM radio stuff.
Both the lack of space for antennas and the annoyance one causes by RFI at your neighbours are some reasons, so that path is closed.

Itsu
   

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Looking for litz cloth or litz fabric or woven non-conductive shielding etc. etc. but the only things i find on the web is conductive stuff (so non litz i presume).

This makes it hard to easily shield the toroidal coil from the pancake coils and the only way forwards would be your way of "winding a several layers of very thin Litz wire on some kind of a flexible hose" etc.

Together with the rewinding of both the pancake coils and the toroidal coil in this symmetrical arrangement using litz wire makes this project one not for the faint hearted.


Itsu
   

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Looking for litz cloth or litz fabric or woven non-conductive shielding etc. etc. but the only things i find on the web is conductive stuff (so non litz i presume).
I got mine on Alibaba, from a chinese company that was making all kinds of fabrics...mostly cotton ones for T-shirts ;)  It was advertised as non-tarnishing copper fabric. Initially I thought that they just painted it, but no - they used enameled wire so it would not change the color AND be flexible.  They must've just substituted a thin enameled copper wire for the usual cotton yarn in their loom.
   

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i tried that "fake calibration of the SA" procedure and got the below result (NOT using the current probe).

Itsu
   

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"fake calibration of the SA" procedure using the current probe (TG output cranked up from -20 to 0dBm or from 26.99 to 46.99dBmV)
   

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"fake calibration of the SA" procedure using the current probe (TG output cranked up from -20 to 0dBm or from 26.99 to 46.99dBmV)
Below is the data from the 11.csv and 12.csv files presented in linear form (not dBmV).

You can see that the crosstalk increases with frequency, so the E-field shielding should attenuate it dramatically.
The peak #1 in 11.csv is caused by incomplete cancellation of the primary LC circuit's frequency response, which is the result of the shift in its resonance frequency. This shift is due to this type of probing, which disturbs the primary resonant circuit during the calibration.

The 12.csv includes the current probe frequency response error.  I would be curious to see this error measured separately by:
- calibrating when the TG is shorted by the CSR and normalizing with the voltage signal appearing across this CSR
- next, measuring the signal from the current probe placed over this CSR
(this is only for my curiosity and not really needed for the project).
« Last Edit: 2020-07-08, 16:13:07 by verpies »
   

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Ok, good to know the E-field shielding is needed.


Concerning the current probe frequency response error, when using the current probe i do not use the csr.
So i don't understand the calibration process to tackle that error.

You want me to use different leads on the SA input side, first the normalizing with the voltage signal appearing across this CSR then the current probe attached and measuring the current through the csr?

   

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...first the normalizing with the voltage signal appearing across this CSR then the current probe attached and measuring the current through the csr?
Yes, putting the current probe ON the CSR (or its leg) makes the measurement more comparable to the calibration, because in both situations the TG will have to source the same amount of current.
If you short the TG only for the measurement with the current probe, then the TG will have to source a little more current, which is less fair and less comparable.

P.S.
I did not write that I want you to do it - I wrote that I would be curious to see it. It just would be nice...
   

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I gladly will do any test, no problem, i can only learn from it  O0

I am not sure i understand the test protocol.

Below i made a test using the csr (10 Ohm) on the TG and measuring with an equal length of coax cable on the SA side the voltage across that csr and then normalizing (flatten) its trace.

Then removing that equal length of coax on the SA, replace it with the current probe in one of the csr legs and logging the response.

It turns out to be flat across the 10Mhz.

Itsu 
   

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I gladly will do any test, no problem, i can only learn from it  O0
Thank you, that was educational to me, too. I did not expect the current probe to be so good.
Does it stay flat all the way up to its rated frequency ?
   

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Yes, seems so, this 60Mhz rated AC probe drops off around 70Mhz, see 100Mhz scan.

 
   

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Concerning this E-field shielding, is it possible to use pieces of litz wire, spread it out vertically
and horizontally across the pancake coil former (so 2 layers) and coat it with varnish to form a shield?

Its about 2cm wide, so to cover 15cm i need 8 pieces x 2 for 2 layers.
For both pancake coils that would mean 32 pieces.

Itsu
   

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Concerning this E-field shielding, is it possible to use pieces of litz wire, spread it out vertically
and horizontally across the pancake coil former (so 2 layers) and coat it with varnish to form a shield?
If the strands are individually insulated then yes.
...but wouldn't winding these 10 thousand turns on a hose with a motorized drill be easier ?
   

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Yes, these strands come from 2mm diameter thick litz wire from which i have 10m of.

I don't know what would be easier, but both would be hours of fun  :o

I am afraid that after bending the hose into shape, i end up with a build up of wires on the inside and minimum coverage at the outside.

 
Guess its just a matter of trying.

By the way, the water tube has both an inlet and an outlet.

Itsu
   

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I don't know what would be easier, but both would be hours of fun  :o
Just winding it with a motorized drill (or lathe) takes under 15min, ...and it doesn't have to be a very precise winding.

You can estimate the amount of turns needed to cover the outer circumference by dividing it by the thickness of the thin wire.
For example for a 120mm O.D. the outer circumference is 377mm and when you divide that by e.g. 0.1mm diameter of the thin wire, the result is 3770 turns.
At 300rpm the winding time for 1 layer is a little over 12 minutes.

What is the I.D. and O.D of your water tube anyway ?

I am afraid that after bending the hose into shape, i end up with a build up of wires on the inside and minimum coverage at the outside.
Guess its just a matter of trying.
Yes, the wires will bunch up on the inner circumference, but because the difference between the inside circumference and outside circumference of your water tube is small, that bunching effect will also be small...and it will not hurt the shield's performance.
This does not need to be a precise job ! 

By the way, the water tube has both an inlet and an outlet.
So these spots are excellent candidates for the coverage by your flattened Litz wire idea.  Just cut the soldered end short (shallow solder penetration) because any bulk metal allows circular eddy current to develop in HF magnetic field.
   

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What is the I.D. and O.D of your water tube anyway ?

with 1mm thick wire on the toroidal coil around it and some varnish it measures:
I.D. = 85mm
O.D. = 114mm

Itsu
   
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