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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 53421 times)

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Enjoy your trek through life but leave no tracks
PW,


the problem i encounter with the OWON scope is at this (early) step:

As the screenshot 1 shows, the green math trace when set at CH1+CH2 shows an added signal, not your  "very little signal".

When i set the math function to CH2-CH1 (or vv), then the green math trace shows your "very little signal"!

Doing the same on my TDS 3054B scope does show the required "very little signal" when both channels are ADDED, see screenshot 3

So i better use the TDS 3054B scope for this measurement the more as i won't be using the kacher.

Itsu
Itsu It might be a odd question but what is the above scope shot of ?

Regards Sil
   

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PW,

So following the rest of your procedure using the TDS 3054B and FG, i finish with these 2 screenshots:

screenshot 1 is yellow on FG red, blue on FG black
screenshot 2 is yellow AND blue on FG red


Itsu
   
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PW,

So following the rest of your procedure using the TDS 3054B and FG, i finish with these 2 screenshots:

screenshot 1 is yellow on FG red, blue on FG black
screenshot 2 is yellow AND blue on FG red


Itsu

Itsu,

I forgot that the only way for you to add an inverted channel to the other is with the math function.  Although the math channel is presenting a nice diff signal, the DSO is not actually canceling common mode signals at the front end, which could be an issue with higher CM signals.

Do you have any idea what kind of voltage to expect across the inductor (grenade primary)?

PW

 
   
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Itsu,

Regarding all the noise on the base of the TC driver.  If you go back many pages to before you blew the TC supply, there is no hint of that noise on the base.  Even when the TC was running for a much longer period of time (before the pin 1 and pin7 swap), the base signals looked much cleaner.

You had also recently switched to the TC secondary with the cardboard former instead of the one on a plastic former.  Is it possible that during your 100V operation of the TC that took out the supply, that you also had an insulation punch through on the secondary to the cardboard former (and now your secondary is very leaky)?

You might consider temporarily reinstalling the secondary wound on the plastic tube and looking at the base signal while driving that. 

PW
   

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PW,

yes the only way to ADD signals is using the math function on my DSO's.

In the past (years ago), i had up to 700Vpp on the inductor, this time the max. measured (differential method) was 163Vpp i believe, see here:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3926.msg92214#msg92214

Ok on the noise on the base, it could be caused by the blow out i guess, but it could also be that i "thought" it was oscillating while in fact it was just ringing.

I will install the old secondary on the kacher and make some base / collector measurements.



Itsu
   

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Old kacher secondary installed (less turns thus higher resonance) still with new 6 turn primary.

Screenshot 1 is base (red) and collector (yellow) of this secondary only.
Screenshot 2 is base (red) and collector (yellow) of this secondary connected to the ferrite transformer and antenna.

Itsu
   
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Old kacher secondary installed (less turns thus higher resonance) still with new 6 turn primary.

Screenshot 1 is base (red) and collector (yellow) of this secondary only.
Screenshot 2 is base (red) and collector (yellow) of this secondary connected to the ferrite transformer and antenna.

Itsu

What does the secondary look like (loose probe)?

PW
   
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PW,

yes the only way to ADD signals is using the math function on my DSO's.

In the past (years ago), i had up to 700Vpp on the inductor, this time the max. measured (differential method) was 163Vpp i believe, see here:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3926.msg92214#msg92214

Ok on the noise on the base, it could be caused by the blow out i guess, but it could also be that i "thought" it was oscillating while in fact it was just ringing.

I will install the old secondary on the kacher and make some base / collector measurements.



Itsu

Itsu,

Thanks for the link to the scope capture across the inductor.  That's what I wanted to see.

Do you have a capture of the field in the vicinity of the grenade (a loose probe close by)?

PW
   

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What does the secondary look like (loose probe)?

PW

The secondary (plus ferrite transformer / antenna) looks like as shown in the below screenshot.


Quote
Do you have a capture of the field in the vicinity of the grenade (a loose probe close by)?


You mean the field caused by the grenade?       

I don't think there is one strong enough to be picked up, i never saw one, but i can try.
The kacher should be off then as it will disturb the other field.


Itsu
   
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The secondary (plus ferrite transformer / antenna) looks like as shown in the below screenshot.



You mean the field caused by the grenade?       

I don't think there is one strong enough to be picked up, i never saw one, but i can try.
The kacher should be off then as it will disturb the other field.


Itsu

Yes, just the grenade, no TC.

Perhaps trigger of one of the PWM outputs (TC pulse, etc).

PW
   

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OK,  yellow is probe nearby the grenade (fat part = hot part), red is one of the TL494 outputs.

Itsu
   
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OK,  yellow is probe nearby the grenade (fat part = hot part), red is one of the TL494 outputs.

Itsu

Thanks Itsu.

Would it possible to see a current probe trace of the inductor (grenade primary) along with grenade field?

PW
   

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Yes, see here,  red current probe (AC only) in inductor lead (10mA/mV, so we have 22App) and yellow still the Grenade hot end field.

Itsu
   
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Yes, see here,  red current probe (AC only) in inductor lead (10mA/mV, so we have 22App) and yellow still the Grenade hot end field.

Itsu

Thanks again.

What does the grenade field look like with the inductor (grenade primary) disconnected?  Trigger on PWM.

PW
   

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Then i get these signals:
   
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Then i get these signals:

Thanks Itsu, one last one for now:

With no TC, no inductor...

Grenade fiield on one channel and the yoke out to grenade current on another.  Likely it doesn't matter which lead of the yoke out.

PW

   

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OK,  no TC, no inductor, red Grenade current, yellow Grenade field current probe at 10mA/mV.

Itsu
   
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OK,  no TC, no inductor, red Grenade current, yellow Grenade field current probe at 10mA/mV.

Itsu

Itsu,

Thanks for all the measurements, and your patience!

I'm guessing the HF on the grenade field is likely the TC ringing.   

Would you consider connecting a probe to a turn or two of wire wound around the grenade (no TC, trigger on PWM)?   

Please do not do anything on my account that you feel might hazard your equipment.   

PW
   

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Thanks again.

What does the grenade field look like with the inductor (grenade primary) disconnected?  Trigger on PWM.

PW



   PW:
   The grenade does not have a normal type of primary coil, such as the mentioned "inductor" coil, as being its "primary" coil.
The 18m "inductor" coil is connected directly to the secondary coil (3t) coil of the yoke, along with a 0.47uf cap. That is the yoke/ inductor coil, induction coil circuit.
  The grenade's 37.5m 68t output coil, is connected to the yoke's secondary 28t coil, directly. Which serves as its "inductor coil", on the YOKE. There is also a series connected cap, such as one or two 0.15uf or so, tuning caps, for that circuit.
 
   I hope that I'm able to explain this, as it is somewhat complicated, and an unusual way of doing things.

   The Kacher, is meant to sync it's HV HF signal with both the "induction" coil, (the 18m coil) on the grenade, and also with the 37.5m 68t grenade's output coil, that is under it, by a capacitive coupling.
    Just how this is all supposed to work, is what we are trying to figure out. But, both the induction circuit, (push/pull), and the Kacher HV circuit are relatively simple circuits. Yet, it's very difficult to sync them all together to allow for self running, which is the main trick, here. As most people would not figure any of this out, on their own.  IF, it's all TRUE...  I only mention the above info in the hopes of furthering our understanding of this device.
As I know that only the real die-hards will read all of Vasik's transcripts. Or watch all the related videos.

  NickZ
   

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Itsu,

Thanks for all the measurements, and your patience!

I'm guessing the HF on the grenade field is likely the TC ringing.   

Would you consider connecting a probe to a turn or two of wire wound around the grenade (no TC, trigger on PWM)?   

Please do not do anything on my account that you feel might hazard your equipment.   

PW





PW,

no problem.



Quote
I'm guessing the HF on the grenade field is likely the TC ringing.   

I don't think so, its more the ringing from the yoke primary coils on the push pull MOSFETs drains:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3926.msg92221#msg92221

 
Quote
Would you consider connecting a probe to a turn or two of wire wound around the grenade (no TC, trigger on PWM)?   


I can do that somewhat later today,   no problem.


Itsu
   
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   PW:
   The grenade does not have a normal type of primary coil, such as the mentioned "inductor" coil, as being its "primary" coil.
The 18m "inductor" coil is connected directly to the secondary coil (3t) coil of the yoke, along with a 0.47uf cap. That is the yoke/ inductor coil, induction coil circuit.
  The grenade's 37.5m 68t output coil, is connected to the yoke's secondary 28t coil, directly. Which is it's "inductor coil", on the YOKE. There is also a series connected cap, such as one or two tuning 0.1uf caps.
 
   I hope that I'm able to explain this, as it is somewhat complicated, and an unusual way of doing things.

   The Kacher, is meant to sync it's HV HF signal with both the "induction" coil, (the 18m coil) on the grenade, and also with the 37.5m 68t grenade's output coil, that is under it, by a capacitive coupling.
    Just how this is all supposed to work, is what we are trying to figure out. But, both the induction circuit, (push/pull), and the Kacher HV circuit are relatively simple circuits. Yet, it's very difficult to sync them all together to allow for self running, which is the main trick, here.

  NickZ

NickZ,

Perhaps I am looking at the wrong schematic, or using the wrong terms for the various coils.

The push-pull "yoke" appears to have a center tapped primary (driven by the push-pull) and two secondary windings. 

One of the yoke secondaries (3T) is connected to the grenade primary (inductor) through a series cap and the other yoke secondary (25T) is connected to the grenade (gradient coil or secondary with respect to the inductor), also through a series cap.

The output is taken from across the series cap connecting the grenade to the yoke's 25T secondary and is fed through the output transformer that appears to be wound as a common mode choke.

Is the grenade actually supposed to be connected directly to the yoke's 25T (or 28T) without the series cap?  I thought the series cap  between the 25T and the grenade was also chosen to resonate with the grenade at the PP frequency.

PW
   

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  Yes, and no.  You can see it that way, but remember that the grenade output coil is connected directly to the yoke's 25 to 28t secondary coil. Which serves and provides for at least part of the input signal for the grenade. And the grenade output circuit can run even without the 3t yoke coil secondary connected to the so called "inductor". As Itsu has just shown.  So...yes, and no...
   
   
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PW,

no problem.



I don't think so, its more the ringing from the yoke primary coils on the push pull MOSFETs drains:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3926.msg92221#msg92221

There does not appear to be very much HF making it through the yoke (at least when looking at the current waveforms).  You could try watching the grenade field (no TC) and shorting the TC antenna to ground (or removing the TC sec) to see if it diminishes the HF seen on the yoke field.  Its difficult to measure the frequency of the HF oscillations seen on the grenade field scope shots, but they appear to be very close to the TC frequency (but then, that is also a grenade harmonic).  This is why I was interested in looking at a waveform more closely coupled to the grenade (the 1-2 turns dicsussed).

It would be interesting to look at the voltage waveforms across the yoke secondaries to see if some of the P-P harmonics actually make it through the yoke (inductively or capacitively). 

Quote


I can do that somewhat later today,   no problem.


Itsu

Thanks Itsu.

Do you own a pair of 100X probes?

PW
   
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... the grenade output coil is connected directly to the yoke's 25 to 28t secondary coil...
 

Are you saying there is no series (resonant) cap between the yoke's 25/28T and the grenade output?

PW
   

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    PW:
   No, sorry about that, there IS a tuning cap(s). One or two (parallel connected 0.15uf WIMA 2000v caps), on that series connected grenade output circuit.
   You really seam to be getting it, better than most. It's not easy. Thanks for taking the time to study this out. I do appreciated it.
 
    Yes, there are many different schematics, I am not using the exact same one, as I have mentioned before. I use a previously posted TopRuslan 7 schematic, by Ruslan. Which was what Stalker, Adrian, and others replicated in their own way. Most all of the other later schematics were knock offs, taken from either the Ruslan, or Akula schematic, and their ideas. Oleg was the actual Russian designer of all of Ruslans devices, circuits, and PCBs.
 He may be available for hire. Who knows. If he hasn't been killed, like Adrian was.
   
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