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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 76091 times)

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Poynt99,

have you seen Sergey's explanation ?

Vasik
Yes, I have.
   

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The problem is that the spacings between the striations in the fluorescent tubes cannot be explained by the beat between the RF frequency of the TL & LC resonances alone.  The wavelengths are just too long - tens of meters vs centimeters...  and the arithmetical difference between these frequencies has even a longer wavelength.
Verpies hi yes i was puzzled why no one had raised that querying it against the grenades construction.
If so can you offer any explanation ?

regards SIL
   

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Hmmm,   if i roughly measure the distance between 2 rings of the longer tube (left side) on my photo from post #320 to be 10cm, then with the equations in the 2nd answer of Mudped
his link, i get  f=v/λ   f=241000/0.1    f=2.41Mhz, which is about the frequencies used being 1.22 (half) and 2Mhz.

I will do some exact measurements later today, including the "magnet on a stick" test.

Thanks,  Itsu
   

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What are these alternating bright and dark rings in fluorescent lamp?
Well since you can get this type of effect at off the grid powered dying tubes (burnt out or high resistant heaters) the ionising effect from the high voltage EMP effect
I would have thought using this type of device would be of little or no use to use here.

To get a more accurate reading use an inductor with two LEDs and a resister or a small neon on a plastic knitting needle and pass it down the centre
of the tube where the magnetic field is greatest.


Also grenade windings and frequency.

Lets look at how the grenade is wound,  from the top we have what looks like a ¼ wave
Winding (lets suppose it’s a 41.64 wire length in all, if we divide this by 14 we get a ¼ wave
Winding length) and since its wound on a 50mm tube with a width of 42 cm wide for the
Full wave then a ¼ wave would be 11cm.

So would you expect the ¼ frequency be related to ¼ wave coil width or the actual wire length
used in that ¼ wave winding ?

Also point99
Re your statement on members IQ on this subject, have you any idea how many techniques are actually used in the construction of one of these devices ?

1 high frequency phasing of the Tesla coil ect
2 interruption of the wave and type of wave
3 modulation of the wave and technique
4 many other techniques I have not mentioned like resonance, phase locking
5 type of wave forms used in different places ect, ect

Just to name a few of the technique I have noticed I’m sure you have and others have
Noticed this in many of the designs


SIL
« Last Edit: 2021-05-02, 12:52:31 by AlienGrey »
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Also point99
Re your statement on members IQ on this subject, have you any idea how many techniques are actually used in the construction of one of these devices ?
Would you not agree that any system, no matter how complicated, can be broken down into its main blocks, and each block described in terms of its function and purpose and how it relates to the other blocks?
   

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Hmmm,   if i roughly measure the distance between 2 rings of the longer tube (left side) on my photo from post #320 to be 10cm, then with the equations in the 2nd answer of Mudped
his link, i get  f=v/λ   f=241000/0.1    f=2.41Mhz, which is about the frequencies used being 1.22 (half) and 2Mhz.

I will do some exact measurements later today, including the "magnet on a stick" test.

Thanks,  Itsu

Remeasuring the distance between the rings show that they are much less then the earlier reported 10cm, more like 3cm and no difference between what frequency.


Using a magnet on a wooden stick shows i can manipulate the rings to either stop moving when running, or start moving when stopped, but very locally.

So i guess these rings are more an indicator of a magnetic field when the fluorescent tube is low on excitation.


Itsu
   

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Hmmm,   if i roughly measure the distance between 2 rings of the longer tube (left side) on my photo from post #320 to be 10cm, then with the equations in the 2nd answer of Mudped
his link, i get  f=v/λ   f=241000/0.1    f=2.41Mhz, which is about the frequencies used being 1.22 (half) and 2Mhz.
I think that this is a mere coincidence, because even if the longitudinal standing sound waves in the gas theory (by Apollonius) were true (IMO it is not) then the standing wave frequency would be affected by the length of the tube (just like it is with any sound wave) ....but it is not.

I am still of the opinion that the striations are caused by discrete gas ionization levels as depicted in that video cited in my message #91380 and explained by Martin Ueding and the Franck-Hertz experiment

If your fluorescent tube has mercury vapor inside, then the mercury atoms can absorb electrons and later emit light, only if they have the speed/energy greater than 4.9eV. Electrons below that speed will just bounce off the mercury atoms in different directions without giving any energy to the mercury atoms and no subsequent light emission will happen.  If an electron becomes accelerated to more than 4.9eV, (for example to 5eV) then the mercury atoms will be able to absorb only the 4.9eV and leave the electron with the remaining 0.1eV of energy/speed.  This is also true about multiples of the 4.9eV. For example an electron accelerated to 10eV will excite the mercury atom only by 9.8eV and and will be left with the remaining 0.2eV of energy/speed.
Since it takes time and space for the electron to get accelerated up to that 4.9eV, then during that time (and space) the mercury vapor will NOT glow.  This is a cascading effect.
« Last Edit: 2021-05-02, 23:08:26 by verpies »
   

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Remeasuring the distance between the rings show that they are much less then the earlier reported 10cm, more like 3cm and no difference between what frequency.
Exactly, and this means that the spacing of the striations in the fluorescent tube is NOT related to the wavelength of the standing wave in the Stalker's coil !  Only to the gas properties and magnitudes of external EM fields that accelerate its ions.

The spacing of these striations is determined by the properties of the gas excitation inside the tube - not the wavelength of the external fields.  This distinction is very important for tuning!


P.S.
The above reasoning is about the spacing, NOT about the apparent motion of these striations.

   

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Quote
This is a cascading effect.


Yes, thats how it looks like to me too, but it clearly is influenced by a magnetic field.

So the question still remains if the rings (striations) when stationary have any relation to a standing wave (in combination with LC resonance).

Itsu 
   

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So the question still remains if the rings (striations) when stationary have any relation to a standing wave (in combination with LC resonance).
I'd answer "minimaly" because the magnetic field is mostly parallel to the tube in that orientation and changing symmetrically about zero amplitude (which sums to zero over time) in contrast with a constant magnetic field field from a permanent magnet. Note, that only the perpendicular H-field component can affect the paths of the moving ions.

However, the electric field is responsible for accelerating the mercury vapor ions EVEN WHEN it is parallel to the tube.
This begs an experiment that illustrates that a weaker E-filed causes the spacing between striations to increase. Keeping the tube parallel but moving it away from the coil a little would weaken the external E-field that the tube is exposed to and decrease the acceleration of the ions (not moved by hand though, because the hand is conductive).
   

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I have no indication that "a weaker E-field causes the spacing between striations to increase", but its hard to see as moving the tube parallel away a little from the coil also makes any stationary striations start to move and vise versa.

Itsu
   

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I have no indication that "a weaker E-field causes the spacing between striations to increase", but its hard to see as moving the tube parallel away a little from the coil also makes any stationary striations start to move and vise versa.
That movement is something else.  IMO the motion is caused by the difference between the time it takes the mercury ions to accelerate from 0 to 4.9eV and the time it takes the E-field to cycle from 0 to its maximum value.

Can you get your hands on tubes filled with a different gas, e.g.: "neon sign" tubes?
   

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That movement is something else.  IMO the motion is caused by the difference between the time it takes the mercury ions to accelerate from 0 to 4.9eV and the time it takes the E-field to cycle from 0 to its maximum value.
Can you get your hands on tubes filled with a different gas, e.g.: "neon sign" tubes?

I am wondering what benefits such experiment could give ?
Why not use some more convenient field sensors if you want study field configuration around gradient coil ?

Vasik  :)


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I am wondering what benefits such experiment could give ?
It would unequivocally prove that the spacing of the striations is related to the gas properties and NOT to the wavelength of the RF EM fields around the coil - only their strength.
This would disqualify the fluorescent tubes as frequency tuning indicators, which is a huge step forward in understanding and tuning of this device.
   

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I agree it could be important to know if those rings have any relation to the wavelength to avoid loosing time with tuning.

I have no neon sign tubes though, but will be on the lookout for them.

Itsu
   
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I agree it could be important to know if those rings have any relation to the wavelength to avoid loosing time with tuning.

I have no neon sign tubes though, but will be on the lookout for them.

Itsu

A linear array of NE-2 type bulbs might shed some light on the matter.  One would think that even a few NE-2's would also show the moving/standing wave if the premise on the whole is sound.

Just a thought...

PW



   
   

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Thanks Pico, that might be a cheap solution.

Itsu
   

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   Aside from every ones opinion about the striations and darker bands running along the tubes, I would follow what Stalker has shown and has mentioned on his videos, concerning tuning for the grenade coil. Main thing is what will be the end result, OU, or no OU. I doubt that any one has really replicated all of his result to the T, until now.
   Thanks for all your efforts, itsu. I'm excited to see what happens next with Vasik's assembled PCB, and Kacher circuit tuning, as well.
   

    NickZ
   

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Would you not agree that any system, no matter how complicated, can be broken down into its main blocks, and each block described in terms of its function and purpose and how it relates to the other blocks?

   
    Poynt99:
   That is exactly what we are trying to do here. If you really follow along, you would see that is just what is happening.
   There is a grenade coil, and  an inductor coil for the push pull circuit, and a Kacher Tesla coil HV pulse circuit, all interacting with one another.
Yet, no one here really KNOWS just exactly what is going on, or how to achieve self running. And much less explain how it all is actually working to produce the desired results, as yet. There is lots of info on all of this, but, very few replications from any of us.  This project is not for the faint of heart...
   There are many of us just waiting for some positive results, after all these years. Hopefully without getting killed in the process.
Sometimes, no luck is good luck.

   NickZ
   

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You might find this file of use in your quest

https://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/NEETS-Modules/NEETS-Module-10-3-31-3-40.htm

Navy Electricity and Electronics Training Series (NEETS)
Module 10 - Introduction to Wave Propagation, Transmission Lines,
and Antennas
Chapter 3:  Pages 3-31 through 3-40

 Vasik041
Hi you published a ink a while back to
     Объяснение Капаген-эффекта - Часть 7.
have you any links to the other 6 please ?

regards SIL
   

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Vasik041[/b] Hi you published a ink a while back to
     Объяснение Капаген-эффекта - Часть 7.
have you any links to the other 6 please ?

regards SIL

Hi AlienGrey,

I don't have it.
There are links to parts 1-3, 4,5 but 6 is missing.

Regards,
Vasik


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I completed the PushPull Kacher synced pcb and made some first tests:





Scope shows yellow/blue the TL494 output (20KHz @ 33% Duty Cycle), purple inverted output to kacher driver.

Frequency adjustable between 17.9KHz and 117KHz.





Also winding the "inductor" around the lower part Grenade using the below (¼ wave length) table, meaning around 9.5m long, aiming for half the Grenade inductance (143uH), so 72uH.




Itsu

   

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Itsu this circuit might be of use, no idea where it came from note large caps used around trhe coils no comments on them though.

SIL
« Last Edit: 2021-05-07, 00:31:44 by AlienGrey »
   
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