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OverUnity Research > Benches > AlienGrey > Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench
2024-04-18, 22:57:53
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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 222347 times)
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img  NickZ
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1525 on: 2021-07-16, 15:56:53 »
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   Itsu:
   It will be interesting to see just where those 5 pulses do the most good. If on top, or on the bottom of the other wave, and at which frequency.
Seams like Vasik mentioned something about placing the pulses when the mosfets are off, to not affect them too much. That seams logical.

   I always use several of the led/coil sensors around both my yoke as well as on the kacher and grenade. For the grenade/kacher sensor I use the neon sensor, as they will only turn on at over 70v or so. They really help, especially for guys building this without a scope. Like me, and Geo, were doing for a while.
   My yoke's secodary coil (28t) is wound all the way around the whole yoke, which does fit. Other than where the 3t coil is at. Primary is 12, 12t.
I remember Verpies saying something about taking advantage of the whole yoke core, when possible. Ruslan and Akula both showed their yokes secondary wound all the way, on both sides, not just on 1/2 of the yoke. Always makes me wonder, why change the windings count, and the way the yoke is wound. Did it not work right towards self running, with the original designs? No one ever answers...

   NickZ
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1526 on: 2021-07-16, 16:40:33 »

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Nick,

My experience is that the kacher pulses nor the nano pulses have a big influence on the push pull signals / MOSFET, so i don't think any special timing is need to protect them.

But timing can be critical to summon the needed effect we are after.

Concerning the flux leakage, perhaps we need some there, who knows, and the design calls for it, so will be following it initially.

Itsu
   
img  NickZ
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1527 on: 2021-07-16, 17:59:38 »
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   Itsu:
   Yes, who knows... I hope that you're right, about the fets signals not being overly affected, but they the fets are the main component that do get hot.
And it does not take but a couple too many volts on the fet gates, to make them blow. So, it would be interesting to see if the location of the Kacher signal on top of the PP signal has anything to do with any overheating or over current. Especially at over 300 to 500w loads, and a feed back circuit PS to provide for. That is the breaking point. If the feed back circuit doesn't get enough power to it, the back to the input part, won't work, nor will the device.
   I think that for proper tuning all these things above mentioned have to be in place. You see how different the device operate with just no 18t secondary connected to the grenade output coil.

   NickZ
   
img  picowatt
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1528 on: 2021-07-20, 12:41:05 »
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Itsu,

Please post something to let us know all is well...

PW
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1529 on: 2021-07-20, 12:52:19 »

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PW,

sorry, all is well here, just making some adjustments.

I have the 18 turn L2 secondary extended to 28 turns which made little impact on the Grenade current shape, but the output dc voltage on the bulb is somewhat higher at just below 200V.

The new MOSFET pulsed kacher driver is ready to be fired up, so will do some tests in the next few days.

One question to vasik.....   is the ground ONLY connected to the kacher secondary bottom, see diagram below, or should we tie the ground also to the return leads of the PCB?

 
Itsu
 
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1530 on: 2021-07-20, 13:16:37 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-20, 12:52:19
PW,

sorry, all is well here, just making some adjustments.

I have the 18 turn L2 secondary extended to 28 turns which made little impact on the Grenade current shape, but the output dc voltage on the bulb is somewhat higher at just below 200V.

The new MOSFET pulsed kacher driver is ready to be fired up, so will do some tests in the next few days.

One question to vasik.....   is the ground ONLY connected to the kacher secondary bottom, see diagram below, or should we tie the ground also to the return leads of the PCB?

Itsu

Hi Itsu, PW,

Good to hear from you, I also already started worrying how are you. It was silent here for a while.

About ground connection, I was thinking about it and so far I tend to think that grounds should be connected.
Also it seems that gradient coil ground connection not shown on the main schematic.
My arguments are:
- both Ruslan's and Alexeev's devices have these connections
- there is kacher variant, there is not possible to not connect grounds

It seems that ground wire length should be close to Tesla coil length, about 25 meters. It could be that we need power setup from batteries for tuning also.

Regards,
Vasik
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1531 on: 2021-07-20, 17:30:57 »
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Quote
Vasik,
I appreciate your generosity and help with this translation. Do you have personal experience with this device?
Or are you familiar with Stalker and his device hands-on.

It's all very good that this device might convert static to em energy. But there is no indication from your document to show how this transformation takes place in a grenade coil.

I would like you to elaborate the principle if you can spare a few minutes. As I see it, the documentation is lacking.

original message is here https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4154.msg93694#msg93694

Hi Billcooper,

I never meet or spoke with Sergey.
I am building device myself now.
You can see some photos and related conversation in this thread.
Principle described by Sergey can be found here https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4154.msg93065#msg93065

Regards,
Vasik

PS please use this thread for discussion, let's try keep documentation thread short.
   
img  Utopia Now
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1532 on: 2021-07-20, 17:46:16 »
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Dear Experimenters I am very Happy  I found this forum, this thread a week ago,

I am amazed by your definiteness of purpose, I am also very interested in the device.
I was also a bit worried and also focussed on staying optimistic.
I love to learn from you all.
Here is a picture from my workbench. I am also still trying to get some effect.
I also have a K2611 Mosfet right now. Here running at 30 V

Utopia
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1533 on: 2021-07-20, 18:09:13 »
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Quote from: Utopia Now on 2021-07-20, 17:46:16
Dear Experimenters I am very Happy  I found this forum, this thread a week ago,

I am amazed by your definiteness of purpose, I am also very interested in the device.
I was also a bit worried and also focussed on staying optimistic.
I love to learn from you all.
Here is a picture from my workbench. I am also still trying to get some effect.
I also have a K2611 Mosfet right now. Here running at 30 V

Utopia

Hi Utopia,

Welcome! You have a nice looking setup :)
This might be interesting for you also https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4154.msg93694;topicseen#msg93694

Regards,
Vasik
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1534 on: 2021-07-21, 09:11:15 »

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Hi UN,

long time no see.

Nog steeds volle kracht vooruit?

Nice setup indeed, i see you have a pulsed kacher (purple trace), is it with the MOSFET setup i just have build?
What are the yellow and light blue traces?


Regards Itsu
   
img  Utopia Now
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1535 on: 2021-07-21, 17:53:21 »
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Quote
Hi Utopia,
Welcome! You have a nice looking setup :)
This might be interesting for you also https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4154.msg93694;topicseen#msg93694

Regards,
Vasik

Hi Vasik, Wonderfull that you created the documentation topic and the valuable translations etc.
I will need time to study it ( i been dreaming about good info lately  .. and  here it is ) .

Quote
Hi UN,

long time no see.

Nog steeds volle kracht vooruit?

Nice setup indeed, i see you have a pulsed kacher (purple trace), is it with the MOSFET setup i just have build?
What are the yellow and light blue traces?


Regards Itsu

Hi Itsu,
Ja met nieuw enthousiasme weer aan de bak.
The yellow trace is from the inductor ( hot end )
The light blue trace is output Grenade, i have a 24 volt 40 watt lamp at the output.
The dark blue trace is the probe some cm from antenna, L9, the Voltage should be multiplied by 20 so 109 Vpp is about 2180Vpp if i were to meassure it at the end of the antenna.
My current setup is with K2611 and TC4452 mosfet driver.
The rest is a mix from different schematics, push pull part is from Alexeew.
The phase adjustment and amount of pulses and Tesla frequency and duty cycle are from other schematics that i also altered a bit .. probably not in the best way but with the purpose of being able to adjust everything what was required.
I shall post a schematic later.

Regards Utopia
« Last Edit: 2021-07-21, 19:33:22 by Utopia Now »
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1536 on: 2021-07-21, 20:16:19 »

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Great,  so the yellow trace is inductor L4 voltage and light blue is grenade L5 voltage and there is ~90° phase shift between them while running at ~23Khz.

Did you notice any effect like squealing or a hissing noise?


Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1537 on: 2021-07-21, 21:42:13 »

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I was testing the new pulsed MOSFET kacher with 24V on the primary kacher coil / drain.

While monitoring the drain using the yellow probe, i noticed that directly after starting to put 24V on the drain / primary kacher coil, i see way more then 24V on the drain, see screenshot 1

It shows that withing a few cycles the drain / prim. kacher coil voltage raised from 90 to 120 to 150V.

Screenshot 2 shows an expanded view of one of the drain / prim coil pulses and also there we see the drain voltage go from 150V to zero.

Where does this voltage come from?

I used a cmc and some ceramic / electrolytic caps in the 24V supply line to the prim. kacher coil.

The diagram below shows the general setup including some component modifications.


Itsu
   
img  Utopia Now
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1538 on: 2021-07-21, 22:27:40 »
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Quote
Great,  so the yellow trace is inductor L4 voltage and light blue is grenade L5 voltage and there is ~90° phase shift between them while running at ~23Khz.
Did you notice any effect like squealing or a hissing noise?

Itsu

No I did not hear or notice any effect like squealing or a hissing at 23 KHz  .

A couple of months ago when i was testing at 15KHz  and also around 22KHz to test yoke, torroid`s or ETD`s I recall I thought I heard something .. maybe it was the lamp that was making a sound but not the Grenade or inductor or yoke ( I don`t use a yoke but ETD59 3c94 ) .

What should the squealing or hissing effect indicate?

I enclosed the schematic .. I know it looks a bit awkward: 2 inverterting schmitt triggers in a row but without them i could not get a strong enough signal to the Tesla driver.

I can go till 150 V supply for the K2611 when i go higher there is no more extra output from the Tesla but the mosfet gets warmer though.
I experiment with 4 pulses max.

Regards UN
   
img  Utopia Now
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1539 on: 2021-07-21, 23:28:15 »
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Quote
I was testing the new pulsed MOSFET kacher with 24V on the primary kacher coil / drain.

While monitoring the drain using the yellow probe, i noticed that directly after starting to put 24V on the drain / primary kacher coil, i see way more then 24V on the drain, see screenshot 1

It shows that withing a few cycles the drain / prim. kacher coil voltage raised from 90 to 120 to 150V.

Screenshot 2 shows an expanded view of one of the drain / prim coil pulses and also there we see the drain voltage go from 150V to zero.

Where does this voltage come from?

I used a cmc and some ceramic / electrolytic caps in the 24V supply line to the prim. kacher coil.

The diagram below shows the general setup including some component modifications.

Itsu

I also have the voltage going up after powering up from 24V(0,077A)  here it is nearly 60V.
I have no diode on the gate from the K2611 and a bigger resistor (12 Ω).
I had to play with the duty cycle (52%) to get a cleaner signal at the drain.

Regards UN
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1540 on: 2021-07-22, 08:41:50 »
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I would like to explain how I understand what is going on here.

If we have LC circuit and apply a step input to it, we will have transient like on pic. 1
In our case we apply pulse burst, which can be represented as two steps ("on", "off") and pulse sequence.
Circuit is linear, so it's response will be sum of responses to each input.
And will look like on pic.2 (here only two inputs "on" and pulse sequence)

So what Sergey show in his video and I tried to explain with screenshots here
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3926.msg93420#msg93420
We can utilize this transient response to get HV pulse burst.  Only first few pulses where amplitude grow need to be used (in order to be energy efficient).

Vasik

PS some reading http://web.engr.oregonstate.edu/~webbky/ENGR202_files/SECTION%204%20Second%20Order%20Transient%20Response.pdf
(interesting things starts around page 50)

PPS It is even possible to maximize this transient if somebody have passion for math.
(BTW this would be opposite solution to conventional engineering where always trying minimize transients)
« Last Edit: 2021-07-25, 10:46:00 by Vasik041 »
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1541 on: 2021-07-22, 09:07:58 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-21, 21:42:13
I was testing the new pulsed MOSFET kacher with 24V on the primary kacher coil / drain.

While monitoring the drain using the yellow probe, i noticed that directly after starting to put 24V on the drain / primary kacher coil, i see way more then 24V on the drain, see screenshot 1

It shows that withing a few cycles the drain / prim. kacher coil voltage raised from 90 to 120 to 150V.

Screenshot 2 shows an expanded view of one of the drain / prim coil pulses and also there we see the drain voltage go from 150V to zero.

Where does this voltage come from?

I used a cmc and some ceramic / electrolytic caps in the 24V supply line to the prim. kacher coil.

The diagram below shows the general setup including some component modifications.

Itsu,

On high frequencies diodes capacitance became more noticeable, perhaps you see it's effect here.
Based on your scope traces I think you need limit your TC to 4 or 5 pulses.
You can try increase resistor in the drain, it will remove some oscillations.

Vasik
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1542 on: 2021-07-22, 09:40:54 »

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Quote from: Utopia Now on 2021-07-21, 22:27:40
No I did not hear or notice any effect like squealing or a hissing at 23 KHz  .

A couple of months ago when i was testing at 15KHz  and also around 22KHz to test yoke, torroid`s or ETD`s I recall I thought I heard something .. maybe it was the lamp that was making a sound but not the Grenade or inductor or yoke ( I don`t use a yoke but ETD59 3c94 ) .

What should the squealing or hissing effect indicate?

I enclosed the schematic .. I know it looks a bit awkward: 2 inverterting schmitt triggers in a row but without them i could not get a strong enough signal to the Tesla driver.

I can go till 150 V supply for the K2611 when i go higher there is no more extra output from the Tesla but the mosfet gets warmer though.
I experiment with 4 pulses max.

Regards UN



Quote
I also have the voltage going up after powering up from 24V(0,077A)  here it is nearly 60V.
I have no diode on the gate from the K2611 and a bigger resistor (12 Ω).
I had to play with the duty cycle (52%) to get a cleaner signal at the drain.

Regards UN



UN,


The squealing or hissing sounds in the yoke and/or Grenade / inductor coils are being reported by severall people as being a good sign.
If it is really needed i don't know as nobody has shown a working device which has it.

Thanks for the schematics, looking similar as what i have, but i would recommend (like Stalker showed) a 1K resistor between gate and source of the  K2611 to prevent latch ups.

I have a diode (schottky) in the MOSFET gate to driver (parallel to the gate resistor) line to increase the "switch off" speed.

I also have a 18V TVS on the gate to ground to protect the gate, but that is what i always use there.

I am planning to insert a 440V TVS across the drain source to limit the (700V spikes i see) on the drain as my MOSFET is a 500V one.

Good to know you have similar increasing voltage signals on the drain.

Itsu   
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1543 on: 2021-07-22, 09:50:47 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-22, 08:41:50
I would like to explain how I understand what is going on here.

If we have LC circuit and apply a step input to it, we will have transient like on pic. 1
In our case we apply pulse burst, which can be represented as two steps ("on", "off") and pulse sequence.
Circuit is linear, so it's response will be sum of responses to each input.
And will look like on pic.2 (here only two inputs "on" and pulse sequence)

So what Sergey show in his video and I tried to explain with screenshots here
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3926.msg93420#msg93420
We can utilize this transient response to get HV pulse burst.  Only first few pulses where amplitude grow need to be used (in order to be energy efficeient).

Vasik

PS some reading http://web.engr.oregonstate.edu/~webbky/ENGR202_files/SECTION%204%20Second%20Order%20Transient%20Response.pdf
(interesting things starts around page 50)

PPS It is even possible to maximize this transient if somebody have passion for math.
(BTW this would be opposite solution to conventional engineering where always trying minimize transients)



Quote
Itsu,

On high frequencies diodes capacitance became more noticeable, perhaps you see it's effect here.
Based on your scope traces I think you need limit your TC to 4 or 5 pulses.
You can try increase resistor in the drain, it will remove some oscillations.

Vasik


Vasik, 


thanks,   i will study what you have shown, i think the increasing voltage on the drain has indeed something to do with the spikes.


I have 5 pulses (as you can see in my 2nd screenshot above) from the Tesla control board going to the MOSFET.

I could experiment with the drain resistor and/or the drain diode to see if that influences the increasing of the drain voltage.

One concern is that with the present 24V on the drain i have no visible sparks on the kacher secondary / antenna, so i need to increase the voltage to 100V or so, but that also will further increase the switching voltage / spikes.

Itsu   
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1544 on: 2021-07-22, 10:05:54 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-22, 09:50:47
I have 5 pulses (as you can see in my 2nd screenshot above) from the Tesla control board going to the MOSFET.

I could experiment with the drain resistor and/or the drain diode to see if that influences the increasing of the drain voltage.
One concern is that with the present 24V on the drain i have no visible sparks on the kacher secondary / antenna, so i need to increase the voltage to 100V or so, but that also will further increase the switching voltage / spikes.

Itsu,

I think you can try adding some snubber diode from MOSFET drain to ground, e.g. 400 or 500v
That should protect MOSFET.
Other solution could be a capacitor in parallel to inductor, it will absorb this high spikes, but then you will need tune it to oscillate same frequency with secondary. I not sure what is better solution.

Vasik
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1545 on: 2021-07-22, 11:00:33 »

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Thanks,

lets see what a 440V TVS does across the drain source.

Itsu
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1546 on: 2021-07-22, 11:41:58 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-22, 08:41:50
If we have LC circuit and apply a step input to it, we will have transient like on pic. 1
Yes but notice that while the peak of this transient exceeds the Vcc, the long time average of this transient does not.

The final steady state of the underdamped transient equals Vcc.
Any ringing which occurs, occurs around that final steady state level.

The amplitude of this oscillation can grow to arbitrary values with properly phased stimulus {resonant rise} but the long term average of this oscillation and the final steady state, cannot exceed Vcc according to the transient theory {1st and 2nd order}

Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-22, 08:41:50
And will look like on pic.2 (here only two inputs "on" and pulse sequence)
The long term average of this signal appears to be zero. This average does not appear to exceed Vcc unlike Itsu's signal.

P.S.
Your sim is missing the effect of the MOSFET's body diode.
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1547 on: 2021-07-22, 12:18:59 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-22, 11:41:58
Yes but notice that while the peak of this transient exceeds the Vcc, the long time average of this transient does not.

The final steady state of the underdamped transient equals Vcc.
Any ringing which occurs, occurs around that final steady state level.

The amplitude of this oscillation can grow to arbitrary values with properly phased stimulus {resonant rise} but the long term average of this oscillation and the final steady state, cannot exceed Vcc according to the transient theory {1st and 2nd order}
The long term average of this signal appears zero. This average does not appear to exceed Vcc unlike Itsu's signal.

Hi verpies,

you have been silent for a long time, how are you ?

Quote
but the long term average of this oscillation and the final steady state, cannot exceed Vcc according to the transient theory

Yes, that why we are supposed to use only beginning of the transient, where amplitude is maximum.

Quote
The long term average of this signal appears zero.
It is not, please see large scale picture

Regards,
Vasik
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1548 on: 2021-07-22, 12:53:57 »

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Still restraining myself but I couldn't let this one go.

Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-22, 12:18:59
Yes, that why we are supposed to use only beginning of the transient, where amplitude is maximum.
I agree that the buildup of the oscillations' amplitude is most significant in the first cycles.
However Itsu's signal shows not only the build up of the oscillations' amplitude (AC), but also the increase of the average DC level above the VCC.  That is a separate effect.

Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-22, 12:18:59
It is not, please see large scale picture
I see 5V average DC level.  Is that higher than the VCC ?
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1549 on: 2021-07-22, 13:10:40 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-22, 09:40:54
I have a diode (schottky) in the MOSFET gate to driver (parallel to the gate resistor) line to increase the "switch off" speed.
Another way to increase the "switch off" speed even more is to slam the gate with the opposite voltage polarity, e.g. -15V.  Not that I recommend it here - just something to keep in mind for the future.

Also, if the MOSFET's body diode is allowed to forward-conduct then it is a good idea to connect a Schottky diode in parallel with it, in order to offload it because that diode is slow and has a high voltage drop (VF).
The drawback is increased CDS and scarcity of HV Schottky diodes.
   
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