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Author Topic: NEW DISCOVERY OF VOLTAGE INDUCTION  (Read 1272 times)

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I have started this bench as a follow on to my "Generator using a superconductor" as what I have discovered goes well beyond that possibility.  This has all come from my work on the "Marinov Generator" discussed on my bench of that name.  Others have considered Marinov's claims for his motor that he bizarrely named the "Siberian Coliu".  This led them to a derivation based on the so-called "convective" term borrowed from fluid dynamics.  Unlike the conventional motional induction that creates a sideways force on a charge moving through a magnetic field, this "convective" vector identity yields a force along the charge's movement direction thus creating either a drag force or an accelerating force.  My work on the Marinov motor and that of others have shown that this longitudinal force is a reality.  What is now becoming clear is something that has been overlooked by the theoreticians, the fact that this "convective" term can induce voltage into a closed loop.  Maybe it has been overlooked because it needs either a weird-shaped closed loop (like hairpin) for induction within known magnetic vector potential fields or a weird-shaped field for induction within a common closed loop (like circular).  Whatever the reason Science is missing out on some hugely significant possibilities.

Superconductors are a way of life today, in MRI scanners everywhere.  There is a cost involved in maintaining these as they use liquid nitrogen temperatures, and the liquid needs regular topping up.   I could envisage a world where such FE generators would take the place of the distribution transformers that exist in urban areas, where consumers paid for their electricity to cover the cost of the installation and the running costs.  This is not free energy, but significantly cheaper than what we pay now and certainly better for the planet.

Now things move beyond that possibility.  The source of the "free" energy in my superconducting hairpin coil is in my opinion the orbital motion of electrons responsible for the magnetization in the Fe ring cores where they can give up energy if they endure a decelerating force.  I argued that the electrons in my hairpin conductor suffer a deceleration as they travel round the sharp hairpin bend and that deceleration creates a form of E field within which the Fe orbital electrons do see a deceleration.  What I have now discovered is the deceleration of the orbital electrons can come from the "convective" term.  The current in the hairpin loop sets up a "weird"  A field pattern such that a circular closed loop obtains a non-zero force around that loop.  That opens up a new possibility, we do not need a superconductor to get to high value "free" current, we can get an effective "free" current at the surface of magnetized material.  Thus the new generator possibility does not wind the hairpin coil around a plastic tube, it is wound around a ferromagnetic tube.

In the first image below I show the A field around the top of such a magnetized ferromagnetic tube.  I also draw the effective surface current around the ring core there.  In the next image I show the E field around that closed square current loop determined by the method shown in my "Generator using a superconductor" bench.  This clearly shows that there is a non-zero voltage around that loop.

More to come on this later.

Smudge 

   
   
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Are you sure that the mesh chosen for the simulation is fine enough to model the field near the conductor angles?
A simulation software can't show anything wrong with the physics equations on which it is supposed to be based.


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Are you sure that the mesh chosen for the simulation is fine enough to model the field near the conductor angles?
A simulation software can't show anything wrong with the physics equations on which it is supposed to be based.
Those arrows are on a 1mm mesh.  The simulation mesh is 0.2mm.  The physical equations for the E field are not in the finite element simulation, they are done outside on a spreadsheet.  In my opinion the restrictions due to the mesh size are responsible for the noisiness of that plot of E field around the loop.   An improved mesh size will not nullify the result that the integration around the loop gives a non-zero voltage, and that is the important feature.

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I think the importance of this finding is that within a non-uniform A field not only can there be a transverse force on a moving charge but also a longitudinal force.  The magnitude of the force in both cases is proportional to the charge velocity (relative to the source of the A field) and to the nature of the non-uniformity.  The Curl function defines one form of non-uniformity and then we get the well-known transverse force for movement through a magnetic field.  But we now see there are other non-uniformities that produce a longitudinal force.  This latter force is not taught in general science but it might explain why some experiments (like magnet motors) have yielded anomalous results.  In the complex field pattern of arrays of rotor and stator magnets where the magnets are conductive eddy current induced into the magnets are an accepted feature.  What is not accepted is that these eddy current might obtain additional accelerating forces that provide "free" addition to the magnet's power that ultimately results in free running motors.

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A while back I did experiment with the Marinov motor and generator. Below you see a diagram of this. I basically rotated a copper ring around a magnet that had its poles split/flipped (basically two half circular magnets stuck to each other) which according to the A field around it should generate a voltage if you followed the charge around in a circle. At first it did generate a voltage and I thought this was a confirmation of the idea. However, as I made the ring thinner and thinner the induced voltage also started to disappear. It was then apparent to me that the measured voltage was due to classic eddy currents and not the longitudinal A-field term.
   

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A while back I did experiment with the Marinov motor and generator. Below you see a diagram of this. I basically rotated a copper ring around a magnet that had its poles split/flipped (basically two half circular magnets stuck to each other) which according to the A field around it should generate a voltage if you followed the charge around in a circle. At first it did generate a voltage and I thought this was a confirmation of the idea. However, as I made the ring thinner and thinner the induced voltage also started to disappear. It was then apparent to me that the measured voltage was due to classic eddy currents and not the longitudinal A-field term.
I considered the classical induction as the cause and I got the slip ring turned down to a smaller OD, thus thinned down.  My voltage didn't reduce like yours did.  My slip ring was large (4 inches dia) and my two magnets were 1 inch placed adjacent to the brushes.
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Following on from the unusual coupling shown in the first message I think it may be possible to create an OU transformer, if not OU but certainly one with unusual properties.  The basic set up as shown in the image below uses a toroidal winding on a thin-walled ferromagnetic tube plus two classical toroidal coils on ferromagnetic ring cores.  The two classical ring core windings are connected in series so that the flux around one core is in the opposite direction to the other.  This then is one transformer winding, say the primary. Our present theories tell us that there is virtually zero coupling across the transformer.  The energized primary coils will drive displacement current through the air but the net amount passing through the elongated core is zero (see this image https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4382.0;attach=46264 for the A field lines that also denote the displacement current).  However there should be this new induction in that secondary coil if it is carrying current and that should be observable.  It could be interesting to feed primary and secondary with different frequencies and observe the cross talk in each coil.

Obtaining the thin-walled ferromagnetic core is a problem.  This could be made by putting a single-layer close-wound coil of Fe wire onto a tube or cylinder former, binding the turns together somehow (sticky tape over the winding?) then removing the former.  Or use a thin walled former and leave it there.  The scheme shown allows the ends of the hairpin coil to just fit inside the hole in the ring cores, but this is not necessary.  The ends could abut ring core faces.

Anyone up to try this out?

Smudge
   

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Obtaining the thin-walled ferromagnetic core is a problem.  This could be made by putting a single-layer close-wound coil of Fe wire onto a tube or cylinder former, binding the turns together somehow (sticky tape over the winding?) then removing the former.  Or use a thin walled former and leave it there.

Nickel battery strip?   Good characteristics overall, fairly standardized, and easy for anyone to find:
https://www.amazon.com/Nickel-Strip-0-15x8mm-Battery-Welding/dp/B08RHP8NDD/ref=sr_1_5


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@H,
Yes, you could cover a thin-walled former in that tape, winding it in spiral fashion.  Thanks for that info.

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I could actually throw the Marinov generator idea into my weber force simulation software. All the weber forces are completely equivalent to any other force/induction law.
   
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Nickel battery strip?   Good characteristics overall, fairly standardized, and easy for anyone to find:
https://www.amazon.com/Nickel-Strip-0-15x8mm-Battery-Welding/dp/B08RHP8NDD/ref=sr_1_5

Please note that this is not pure nickel but nickel-plated steel. It remains to be seen whether it is ferromagnetic steel, not all of them are, as the nickel plating is likely not thick enough for significant magnetic effects.


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I could actually throw the Marinov generator idea into my weber force simulation software. All the weber forces are completely equivalent to any other force/induction law.
I would encourage you to do that and let us know the results.
   

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Please note that this is not pure nickel but nickel-plated steel. It remains to be seen whether it is ferromagnetic steel, not all of them are, as the nickel plating is likely not thick enough for significant magnetic effects.

Did not notice that, those cheapskates C.C

Smudge et al; make sure to search for 99%+ pure nickel strip.


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Did not notice that, those cheapskates C.C

Smudge et al; make sure to search for 99%+ pure nickel strip.

Still don't get the idea fully but you're better off ordering an amorphous Nanocrystalline core. Some of these come in loose casing which you can easily pry open (opposed to epoxied casing) and the core is just wound inside of it. It's very thin and brittle.
   
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Well, I threw a Marinov generator design in my Weber Electrodynamics simulator and actually got a surprising result. In the screenshot below you can see it. The red lines represent the forces vectors on the charged particles and the green ones are the velocity vectors. I only kept the longitudinal component of the force vector for easier analysis.

The surprising fact is that the voltage gradient is divided in quadrants opposed to into halves. In fact, if you would measure across the diameter you would end up with a zero voltage as it would cancel. I'm now very curious as to how true to experiment this would be. I might bring my experimental setup back to life to see if there's a different between measuring between 90° and 180° degrees as I've not explored this.

PS: The simulation show some force lines being longer on one side than the other, this is actually an artifact as they are flickering in realtime, it's a bug somewhere in the software I have yet to find.
EDIT: found the bug, sim looks symmetric now.
« Last Edit: 2022-11-15, 09:53:25 by broli »
   
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Reducing the marinov generator to its bare bones eliminates any specially shaped magnets. Would you agree that the below "mechanical" setup would be a good way to benchmark the vector potential induction viability? Basically, you rotate a smaller conductive loop off center to a magnet. The A-field would go from maximum to 0 from a moving charge's point of view and thus induce an E field due to the changing vector potential. This is also a much simpler problem to solve analytically or numerically (as you're dealing only with circles) in order to compare it to experimental data.

I also added the Weber Electrodynamics sim results as reference.

   

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@Broli,
What you are showing is a significant feature that has been overlooked in current science teachings.  Your off-center circular loop has a magnetic flux passing through it.  Current teaching says that the only way you can get voltage induction in that loop is if the flux is changing with time.  Your flux is from a permanent magnet so is static, and if you integrate the tangential force vectors around that loop you do get zero induction.  But integrated over only half the loop from one side to the other, the voltage induction is not zero.  The existence of a longitudinal force vector for charge movement within a magnetic field is not recognized in current teachings..

If you now create a loop that is a semicircle plus diameter you have something that can't be a rotating slipring, but it could be a moving belt of conductive material passing over tiny rollers at each end of the diameter (and of course a chain of rollers defining the curved path).  When you integrate the force vectors around that loop you get a non-zero answer and depending on the conductivity of the belt it may be possible to get current to build up in that driven loop.  The belt would then obtain the classical transverse forces from the magnetic field that would require more rollers to maintain the belt's position.  A nightmare to construct but a sure-fire way to demonstrate this new discovery.

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@Broli,
What you are showing is a significant feature that has been overlooked in current science teachings.  Your off-center circular loop has a magnetic flux passing through it.  Current teaching says that the only way you can get voltage induction in that loop is if the flux is changing with time.  Your flux is from a permanent magnet so is static, and if you integrate the tangential force vectors around that loop you do get zero induction.  But integrated over only half the loop from one side to the other, the voltage induction is not zero.  The existence of a longitudinal force vector for charge movement within a magnetic field is not recognized in current teachings..

If you now create a loop that is a semicircle plus diameter you have something that can't be a rotating slipring, but it could be a moving belt of conductive material passing over tiny rollers at each end of the diameter (and of course a chain of rollers defining the curved path).  When you integrate the force vectors around that loop you get a non-zero answer and depending on the conductivity of the belt it may be possible to get current to build up in that driven loop.  The belt would then obtain the classical transverse forces from the magnetic field that would require more rollers to maintain the belt's position.  A nightmare to construct but a sure-fire way to demonstrate this new discovery.

Smudge

I have also been aware of this for a while and what lead me to write the Weber Electrodynamics simulation software. However, I'm still on the fence on this due to my passed failed experiments which were admittedly very crude. Anyone willing to help with that is appreciated. This can be done with mathematica for instance where the A field is integrated across half of the circular loop to measure its change and subsequent voltage.

I have a 100mm disc magnet laying around which is plenty big to confirm this effect but I would like to have a theoretical prediction as well so I know what to expect. If prediction says 50 mV and measured value is in couple mV's range then the hypothesis is disproven.

Edit: I'm thinking out loud here, it shouldn't be that hard to get a ballpark estimate all we need to know is the maximum value of the A field and minimum (which should be as good as zero). And using the RPM we can get the derivate which gives us a good estimate of the voltage. So assuming:

Magnet = 100mm N40 Neodymium
A= 0.00515759 Wb/m (According to FEMM, 2mm near the edge of the magnet)
RPM=1000
T =  0.03s (for half a rotation)
r_loop = 25mm

dA/dt= 0,00515759 Wb/m/0.03s = 172mV

That seems like a ginormous estimate which would be hard to miss. Anyone sees anything wrong with this calculation?

Edit2:

I forgot that this is the E field so the circumference of half the rotating loop should be multiplied by it to get the actual voltage:

E = dA/dt = 0,00515759Wb/m / 0.03s = 172mV/m
V = E*L = 172mV/m * PI * 0.025m = 13.5mV

Which is still significant for only 1000 RPM.

« Last Edit: 2022-11-16, 16:31:57 by broli »
   
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...The energized primary coils will drive displacement current through the air
...

There is no displacement current around a coil. A closed EMF cannot move dipoles around a loop, it only orients them around their respective centers, with no net displacement of charges in either direction.


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If the loop will be made in the form of a Mobius strip?
   
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Just a note
Smudges moderated board at Stefan’s
https://overunity.com/19293/smudges-new-discovery-of-voltage-induction/msg571769/#new
Mirrored topic !
Respectfully
Chet
Ps
of course please remove this post if inappropriate or ?
PPS
Just reminder Smudge and Partzman are moderator there
I was just put in as a temp for a specific and separate  topic ( helping member TinselKoala)
   
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If the loop will be made in the form of a Mobius strip?

Explain the reasoning.


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There is no displacement current around a coil. A closed EMF cannot move dipoles around a loop, it only orients them around their respective centers, with no net displacement of charges in either direction.
Displacement current is not charge movement and it is not dipole movement.  It is a time-changing E field.  Are you telling me that the closed E field around a transformer core can't create displacement current?  If so please explain why.

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I quickly setup an experiment using the eccentric loop idea. I ran the motor at its rated 24V DC which as labeled makes it spin at 3500 RPM. I also used slightly thicker coper loop opposed to the copper tape I used previously. This proved to be much better as the measured voltages were much more stable.

The result I got was in the range of 0.5mV, essentially a null result. Regardless of how I placed the brushes even next to each other the same value was seen which tells me the this very low voltage was due to eddy currents rather than the change of the vector potential. From my crude calculation I should have seen a value in the 30mv range.

Sadly, this confirms to me that the vector potential does not offer an induction effect when charge is moving through a "static" vector potential changing only due to the movement of the charge.
   

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Explain the reasoning.
I don't know,can't explain. Just it came to my mind.
This thing is said to have unusual geometric properties.
Even magical properties.So I thought this might help.
Perhaps I opened my brain, but it turned out to be a trash. :-\
   
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