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Author Topic: I Got a Speedup Effect..  (Read 2114 times)

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I get that he is powering the armature via the brushes.  It seems like that magnetic field from the armature is finding some sort of attractive rotary force from the stator...
If the stator is unpowered and there are no ferromagnetic elements in the stator then there cannot be an attractive force to the stator.
There can be repulsive forces from non-ferromagnetic but conductive elements in the stator, though.

Does the stator contain soft ferromagnetic elements ?
   

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Buy me a cigar
If the stator is unpowered and there are no ferromagnetic elements in the stator then there cannot be an attractive force to the stator.
There can be repulsive forces from non-ferromagnetic but conductive elements in the stator, though.

Does the stator contain soft ferromagnetic elements ?

I believe the DUT is using a standard universal motor stator with a modified armature.

Cheers Grum.


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
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Stator is from an induction motor. Identical to this


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Jim Mac - Owner of Mooker.Com Opensource Free Energy Forum
   
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If the stator is unpowered and there are no ferromagnetic elements in the stator then there cannot be an attractive force to the stator.
There can be repulsive forces from non-ferromagnetic but conductive elements in the stator, though.

Does the stator contain soft ferromagnetic elements ?

Yes, the stator contains ferromagnetic elements.

In a typical Lenz situation, an approaching magnetic field to a stator pole causes a repulsive magnetic field and a receding magnetic field an attractive magnetic field.  This action of magnetically inducing energy into the stator windings should cause the rotor to slow to a halt.  The fact that it continues to spin and induce a field into the stator windings is evidence that there is an inversion of Lenz at play.

Dave
   
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This is the armature. It is wound in a fashion so it makes two magnetic rotations for every one Rotation of the physical shaft. In this manner, the magnetic field rotates opposite that of the physical armature.  For every one step forward, the commutator steps the field two steps back.


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Jim Mac - Owner of Mooker.Com Opensource Free Energy Forum
   

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Yes, the stator contains ferromagnetic elements.
So the varying magnetic field generated by the commutated rotor can attract the soft ferromagnetic stator poles.  This forms a variable reluctance motor similar in operation to the stepper motor but with the coils on the inside (in the rotor / armature) - an inside out topology.

Some toothed rotors of commercial stepper motors are composed entirely of soft ferromagnetic materials without any embedded permanent magnets. This design is used in variable reluctance (VR) stepper motors, where the rotor is typically made of soft steel, iron, ferrite or similar materials with salient teeth that align with the stator's magnetic field to minimize reluctance.
In contrast, permanent magnet (PM) and hybrid stepper motors incorporate permanent magnets in the rotor for higher torque and efficiency.

In a typical Lenz situation, an approaching magnetic field to a stator pole causes a repulsive magnetic field and a receding magnetic field an attractive magnetic field. 
Let's call this statement #1.

This is kinda true ...but with two qualifications:
1) the stator pole consists only of a conductive coil.
2) the coil is neither open nor shorted (if the coil is not ideal then it can be shorted).

If the stator coil is ideal and has been shorted in the absence of an external magnetic flux, then your statement must be transformed to:
"The rotor's magnetic pole approaching a stator pole is repelled and a receding magnetic pole is repelled, too"

Let's call this statement #2.

There is a gradual transition between these two behaviors (illustrated by these two statements) that depends on the electric resistance of stator coil's circuit, its inductance and the speed between the rotor's pole and stator's pole.

This action of magnetically inducing energy into the stator windings should cause the rotor to slow to a halt.  The fact that it continues to spin and induce a field into the stator windings is evidence that there is an inversion of Lenz at play.
I wouldn't go that far.
The fact that it continues to spin and induce current in the stator windings merely means that the torque of the variable reluctance (VR) motor (described in my 1st paragraph of this post) is greater than the counter-torque of the pure coil stator (acting as generator), which is abstracted in the Statement #1 with my two qualifications.

In other words: the torque of the variable reluctance (VR) motor overcomes the counter-torque of the the loaded stator / generator. 
This counter-torque is created by the Lenz dependent forces acting between the rotor and the loaded stator / generator, as described in the Statement #1.  This counter-torque becomes zero in the limit case described by the Statement #2.
   
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You said:
 "VR torque > Lenz counter-torque → keeps spinning"

My PDF Page 3 (my own words):
> "The rotation will continue until the load is removed, then the rotation will cease."

NO LOAD = NO FIELD = NO TORQUE = STOPS

Variable Reluctance:
- Runs with OPEN-CIRCUIT stator (no Lenz)
- Torque from teeth alignment

My machine:
- STOPS with open-circuit stator
- SPINS only when stator is LOADED
- Rotor: DISTRIBUTED COILS (PDF Page 2)

Video: Load OFF → stops. Load ON → spins.

Diagram: Page 3 — 90° brushes + back-half wiring

Reluctance motors keep spinning without load.


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Variable Reluctance:
- Runs with OPEN-CIRCUIT stator (no Lenz)
- Torque from teeth alignment

My machine:
- STOPS with open-circuit stator
- SPINS only when stator is LOADED
I acknowledge the difference and will think more about it.

What happens when you short the stator coils ?
   
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I acknowledge the difference and will think more about it.

What happens when you short the stator coils ?

1. 1 phase shorted, 2nd phase open.  =  CAN self Spin once initiated.

2.  BOTH phases shorted-  Self-Spins With Force and Drastic RPM increase
3. 1 Phase powering incadescent bulb-  Other phase shorted=   Self Spins Good Force
4. Both phases with Light Bulbs=  ??  Not tried, but I assume it self-spins

5. Start generator with open outputs, then connect load= Speedup.
6.  When in self-spinning mode, increasing current to brushes causes More current to Bulb + more RPM with motor unplugged.
7. No field magnets or coils.  Just special wound armature, 2 brushes at 90, commutator.  And Stator with 2 output phases from induction fan motor with Stock windings.

I am rewinding the armature now to get smoother rotation


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Jim Mac - Owner of Mooker.Com Opensource Free Energy Forum
   
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Floodrod (also known as Jim Mac proprietor of mooker.com )

Thanks for sharing…
Hoping for the best !!!

Here the link to your forum and topic…

https://www.mooker.com/showthread.php?tid=322
Respectfully
Chet K
   
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Cool setup, this is pretty easy to explain and I was playing around with similar concepts around 2018.

The basic effect is Lenz Law repulsion, if we energize a coil near a conductive plate or shorted coil loop the induced currents will produce a magnetic field which opposes the magnetic field change which created it. The induced field acting on the field which induced it produces a force. So coil A induces coil B, the induced current in B produces a magnetic field in B which then repels magnetic field A.

What floodrod seems to have done is create an inside out induction motor. An induction motor uses the stator coils to induce the shorted armature loops/coils where floodrod uses the armature to induce his shorted stator coils. It works either way and I have tested both setups. However a shorted stator needs the armature to be switched requiring brushes unlike an induction motor.

The light bulb is also neat. If we could add a low voltage light bulb to the one turn loop in the armature of an induction motor it would also light up. Floodrod should find a shorted coil produces a higher rotor rpm than the same coil with a light bulb because the greater the induced current the greater the induced magnetic field and repulsive force driving the armature.

So the motor should speed up when the stator circuit is closed/shorted or a load is connected because it is the load current through the stator coils which produces the magnetic field repulsion between the stator and armature making it rotate.

On a side note, the newest AC motors use a rotary transformer section added to the front of the motor to get power to the armature without brushes. So it's more like a brushless PM motor without the PM's.



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AC Said;  "However a shorted stator needs the armature to be switched requiring brushes unlike an induction motor."

A powered brushed armature that is rotating does NOT induce a magnetic field in a stationary loaded output stator that causes the machine to rotate itself.

My machine does. 

**PDF Page 3 — MY OWN WORDS:**

> "the output stator creates a magnetic field **when powering a load**... The rotation will continue **until the load is removed**, then the rotation will cease."

**My machine:**

- **Stator = unpowered, stationary** 
- **Rotor = powered, spinning** 
- **Field rotates opposite the shaft** (PDF Page 2) 
- **90° brushes + back-half wiring** (PDF Diagram)

I find it baffling no one references my armature wiring and brush alignment (secret ingredients) in their evaluations.   

Without intuitively evaluating my armature wiring diagram in my PDF and understanding WHY I wired it like that, this will continue to elude.

Rotate a magnet Clockwise, the field rotates Clockwise.  Rotate my armature Clockwise, the field rotates Counter-Clockwise

**ORION: Opposite Rotational Induction Opposes Nature**


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I find it baffling no one references my armature wiring and brush alignment (secret ingredients) in their evaluations.   
Without intuitively evaluating my armature wiring diagram in my PDF and understanding WHY I wired it like that, this will continue to elude.
Rotate a magnet Clockwise, the field rotates Clockwise.  Rotate my armature Clockwise, the field rotates Counter-Clockwise
Your armature wiring and brush alignment are not a mystery to me.

I am more concerned with rotor's poles repulsion from shorted stator coils, which is what an induction motor does ...but with the rotor and stator coils swapped.
It's obvious that repulsion from open coils is not possible.
   

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Your armature wiring and brush alignment are not a mystery to me.

I am more concerned with rotor's poles repulsion from shorted stator coils, which is what an induction motor does ...but with the rotor and stator coils swapped.
It's obvious that repulsion from open coils is not possible.

 O0

mags
   
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I am more concerned with rotor's poles repulsion from shorted stator coils, which is what an induction motor does ...but with the rotor and stator coils swapped.

Induction motors don’t spin when the stator is unpowered and shorted. Mine does. That’s not induction motor logic..

Induction motors work because the moving rotor is shunted or shorted. Not the stationary part.

Like saying-  It's Almost like an induction motor- Just completely opposite.


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Jim Mac - Owner of Mooker.Com Opensource Free Energy Forum
   

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Like saying-  It's Almost like an induction motor- Just completely opposite.
No, the roles of the rotor and stator are swapped.  Not almost but completely.

Induction motors don’t spin when the stator is unpowered and shorted. Mine does.
But the rotor of an induction motor spins when it is unpowered and shorted using the same principle as in your machine with swapped roles of the rotor and stator.

That’s not induction motor logic..
It qualifies because it utilizes induction in a shunted or shorted coil in both cases.  The definition of an induction motor rests in the principle of force generation and does not include the location of coils - IOW: it allows for an inside-out construction like yours.

You could conceivably clamp your "rotor" in a vise (which would make it a "stationary rotor" relative to the vise) and allow your "stator" to rotate (which would make it a "rotating stator" relative to the vise) hence obtaining an outrunner induction motor that stops working when the coils in the "rotating stator" become open.

Induction motors work because the moving rotor is shunted or shorted. Not the stationary part.
It does not matter to the induction principle whether the shunt or short is in the rotor or in the stator, because motion is relative and only the relative motion between the stator and rotor matters to the induction.

We could conceivably have both the stator and the rotor moving with respect to the workbench, yet not moving relative to each other.  In such case the lack of relative motion between the stator and rotor would prevent motional induction between them.
   
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Name 1 other device that rotates only when the stationary output coil is shorted / loaded and has no input current --->  with no outside motoring device causing the rotation. 

No induction motor does that. 
No shaded pole. 
No hysteresis. 
No reluctance. 
No motor. Period.


Show me **one** — video, name, link. 
I’ll wait.

My build does. 
PDF Page 3: 
> "The rotation will continue until the load is removed, then the rotation will cease."

**Load = spin. No load = stop. No input to stator.**

If you can explain how it's a common motor, surely you can find ONE example that meets the criteria:

"rotates only when the stationary output coil is shorted / loaded and has no input current --->  with no outside motoring device causing the rotation"




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Jim Mac - Owner of Mooker.Com Opensource Free Energy Forum
   

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The answer is: an Outrunner Induction Motor.

I repeat:
You could conceivably clamp your "rotor" in a vise (which would make it a "stationary rotor" relative to the vise) and allow your "stator" to rotate (which would make it a "rotating stator" relative to the vise) hence obtaining an outrunner induction motor that stops working when the coils in the "rotating stator" become open.

Also, in such motor, the "rotating stator" is not energized by electric conduction.

In general, a moving part is not fundamentally different from a stationary one. 
Motion is relative, sorry  :(
   

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Name 1 other device that rotates only when the stationary output coil is shorted / loaded and has no input current --->  with no outside motoring device causing the rotation. 


so... are you saying that the powered armature is not inducing power into the stator?

lets reverse things... power 1 of the stator windings and short the brushes to the armature and give it a spin....should work both ways.

dont change the brush angle or anything else,

mags
   
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The answer is: an Outrunner Induction Motor.

Also, in such motor, the "rotating stator" is not energized by electric conduction.


Outrunner Induction Motor-  The stationary coil (stator) is the primary winding that receives the input current. It is NOT shorted.


Notice the condition in my challenge-   "stationary output coil is shorted".  A "Rotating Stator" does not meet this condition as it is not "Stationary".

My stator is Stationary and loaded / shorted with no input power.  And the rotor ONLY rotates when the stationary (non-moving) coils are shorted / loaded.

No known machine can do this.

Mine does.


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so... are you saying that the powered armature is not inducing power into the stator?

lets reverse things... power 1 of the stator windings and short the brushes to the armature and give it a spin....should work both ways.

dont change the brush angle or anything else,

mags

Armature IS inducing power into the stator.  And the induced output coils magnetic fields rotate the rotor without need for the drive motor.  In fact- the armature spins the open circuit drive motor.

Powering stator windings with DC while shorting the brush leads causes Immense Bog-down when motor spins the armature.

Power this like a motor (feed input to stator)-  It Fights Lenz. 
Run it as a generator-  Lenz Drives Rotation with no need for a motor.


Here's the vid.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gziTB8M51s8    (Just recorded)


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Jim Mac - Owner of Mooker.Com Opensource Free Energy Forum
   

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Notice the condition in my challenge-   "stationary output coil is shorted".  A "Rotating Stator" does not meet this condition as it is not "Stationary".
The distinction is meaningless because motion is relative.   It depends on the observer's motion (frame of reference).  It would be more descriptive to name them the: inner and outer coils.
For motional induction only the relative motion between the inner and outer coils matters,  i.e. it does not matter which coil is stationary w.r.t. the workbench.

When this is understood, your condition degenerates to:
"the outer coil is shorted" vs. "the inner coil is shorted"
   
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Id want to see it spin without that other power supply hooked up.
   

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It does seem like an interesting project which I'll be exploring when I get back from hols. (vacation) in a couple of weeks. Sorry if I missed it but what is the Pin for the brushes? The only other device I've worked with that sped up under load, was a pulse motor using high impedance gen coils. As soon as you loaded the output the motor sped up and Pin dropped due to shorter pulse duration. This is very different. I can't see where the energy would come from to loop it given heat losses but it certainly looks like it could be a very efficient generator.
   

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Id want to see it spin without that other power supply hooked up.
That would be one of the arguments that would convince me that my analysis is incorrect.
   
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