RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device

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Author Topic: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device (Read 135605 times)

EMdevices	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #175 on: 2011-06-18, 02:59:28 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Peterae, Congratulations on completing your dynamo, it is very similar to RomeroUK's, good job! I'm glad to see you asking questions about RomerUK's waveform, I hope you have seen my postings at OU.com about it, a while back. Yes those flat spots are key, as is the shift down. My suggestion: First, work with one motor coil at a time (disabling the other) and connect the coils and hall sensors to power the rotor in OPPOSITE directions. For example: The coil triggered from the rotor magnet should make the rotor run CLOCKWISE, and the other coil to run COUNTER-CLOCKWISE. When configured like this the coils work in ATTRACTION mode, not REPULSION. Than when you enable both motor coils at the same time, the rotor will run CLOCKWISE, because the motor coil with the longer ON time wins over the other one with a shorter ON time. The motor coil with the shorter ON time than performs a type of energy transformation, from kinetic (as it's trying to put on the breaks) to magnetic because it causes current to flow into the positive polarity of the BEMF it sees, and so this creates a magnetic field disturbance in the dynamic magnetic fields of the rotor that I don't have the time right now to explain to anybodies satisfaction. Second suggestion: Make sure you have a recovery diode on the motor coils, especially the coil with the shorter ON time, that's doing the quick shorting, you want to catch the kick back that occurs. Third suggestion: Listen to what WW said about working with one generator coil at a time and the biasing magnets. EM « Last Edit: 2011-06-18, 04:20:24 by EMdevices »

wattsup	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #176 on: 2011-06-18, 04:49:51 »
Hero Member Posts: 520	@Peterae The circuit that drives the drive coils is doing what. Pulsing power on for a given time regulated by the hall sensor to a drive coil pair? What if it does not do that. What if the power is always on the coil and the sensor pulse turns it off. Better still what if one is always off while the other is always on. Man oh man. D22 Top magnet is attracted by the coil always on gets to the sensor to turn off the field while it exits. Sling Shot. D11 Bottom Drive coil is always off so when the magnet gets on the sensor the drive is energized pulling the magnet in and as it gets in, the sensor is out so the magnet can exit. D22 Always on. Sensor shuts it off. It only has to shut it for a short period to free itself from the attraction. D11 Always off. Sensor turns it on. It has a longer reach to enter under the drive with force then release itself from the sensor. This fits both the back and forth phenomena and the clockwise rotation. The circuitry change required goes above my acumen. Always on and always off (AOAO), if at 50% duty, will make no difference energy-wise. But motive-wise, it could make all the difference. wattsup PS: Sorry for unloading all this. I just wanted to put all this out now before the weekend. Someone has too look again at the circuit, and it ain't gonna be me. Have fun. Oh, another point with AOAO is you need less peak to drive the two coil pairs. That could also make a difference. If Tesla was here, he would probably say 3 drives 6 magnets 9 coils or would it be 3 drives......... --------------------------- http://etherimpress.com

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #177 on: 2011-06-18, 08:38:51 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	Thanks guys a lot of good suggestions wattsup, interesting to know the alignment is straight through the center line, although the switching in and off is totally different because of the orientation of the rotor hall. Interesting Darren about the speed, i had already worked out he must be going a lot slower, but then how does he get enough voltage from his gen coils without the high RPM, i have to be really moving to pump my cap above 12V without a load even. EM recovery diodes on the drive coils, i have one across the TIP42, not sure if he had one across the coils as well, i am still wondering why my TIP went short circuit last night after a long run, it was hot but not that hot, maybe the BEMF killed it, i still feel i am using too tick wire for my drive coils, maybe i will run with a lower voltage as i now do not feel i need high revs. How did you combine the waves Chris, they are actually identical if i connect both coils up to show the correct phase against each other, so when they are in series they actually produce double the amplitude. I think i have found something i need to look at, my analogue meter that measures the voltage across the cap does not go up nice and smoothly it jerks up, i was thinking well it's been in storage for over a year and we had a house move and it got knocked, unfortunately i don't have another analogue meter to try, but limping on one drive this morning going anti clockwise it still did it so i also monitored the voltage accumulation on the scope and this also shows fast and slow periods of voltage rise on the cap, as if certain lower speeds favour voltage generation and accumulation on the cap. I had quiet a play last night , altering the rotor/stator gaps, played with magnet polarity on some of the gen coils and could not make any alteration to the flat period we are interested in. Anyway i left my TIP42's at work so i can bring those home and fix the broken driver, i will also see if it blew the hall. Then i will try to map the voltage versus speed buildup of voltage on the cap, and then move to working on one gen coil. Cheers Guys. Peter

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #178 on: 2011-06-18, 09:03:26 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	wattsup i am wondering if it would be possible to count the revs of the rotor frame by frame and work out what RPM he was running at with the bulbs on, probably impossible due to the low frames per second but just an idea, the other way i guess maybe to do an analysis of the sound spectrum. Maybe someone could point me to the best software to run for this, if i did a spectrum of the noise with his bulbs on and then ran the software live i could alter my supply voltage and tune for the same spectrum. Also now i realize he was running fairly slow i am thinking about super gluing 5mm magnets on top of the existing 10mm magnets to get it how he had is.

wattsup	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #179 on: 2011-06-18, 13:22:55 »
Hero Member Posts: 520	@Peterae I don't think you understand the importance of my last post. Please read it again. It just solved the major part of the Romero Wheel mystery. This Romero would never say to anyone BECAUSE IT WAS TOO SIMPLE AND I AM SURE HE WANTED US TO FIGURE IT OUT ON OUR OWN. The answer is how to drive the coils. There is no other answer to test any more important than this right now, before you do anything else. If this is not fixed, nothing else, no other fine tuning will make enough difference. Mr. Lenz showed up just to tell you "If the drives are not driven properly, I will always win with drag". The generator coils produce AC alone and in pairs, so regardless of how they are oriented it will make no difference. So the answer had to be in the drive coils. But again it is not only coil orientation but how you drive the coils. AOAO. Please, put everything else aside and tackle this question now before you spend any more time. Once this is fixed, you will quickly find the right angles for the sensor, the right distance for the gap, etc. But without making AOAO, you will not succeed. No one will. I will have to post this on OU as well. All the best. wattsup ------------------------ RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device rotor-coil-sensor3a.jpg (289.29 kB, 824x3136 - viewed 1168 times.) « Last Edit: 2011-06-18, 13:55:26 by wattsup » --------------------------- http://etherimpress.com

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #180 on: 2011-06-18, 14:56:24 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	wattsup i cannot see anyway of implementing this without noticeable wires or additions to the driver, also having one on 50% of the time and then the other on 50% of the time means i will be burning 3.25Amps constantly @ 12V that's 39 Watts straight out the window. I am not convinced he did this, we could use flip flops on each driver board and an extra wire between them to make sure they are synced but i just don't see chips on his board and cannot see the extra wires. If there's any driver coil magic going on theres a clue, he uses a triangular shaped winding on the periphery windings and there's evidence he has added lengths of wire to lengthen the periphery coils as well (for what reason) My best guess is he is using the periphery coil as a momentary brake, there is no way to make this coil set drive clockwise, the hall is too close to the driving coils for that, the purpose of the momentary brake to be applied is to regulate the speed, simple, no need for fancy PWM controllers, setting the right speed is important to Romero we already know this because his motor does not run at an enormous speed, so one would ask why when normally the faster you can get the more power output from the gen coils. These are all clues. I think Romero worked on a straight forward angle to minimize drive power and maximize power production, and during plotting speed versus power out he found some anomalous measurement areas, i have already witnessed these on my voltage meter across the cap, at lower revs my cap suddenly jumps up in steps of voltage instead of a nice linear increase with increasing revs.

wattsup	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #181 on: 2011-06-18, 15:45:10 »
Hero Member Posts: 520	Quote from: Peterae on 2011-06-18, 14:56:24 1) wattsup i cannot see anyway of implementing this without noticeable wires or additions to the driver, also having one on 50% of the time and then the other on 50% of the time means i will be burning 3.25Amps constantly @ 12V that's 39 Watts straight out the window. I am not convinced he did this, we could use flip flops on each driver board and an extra wire between them to make sure they are synced but i just don't see chips on his board and cannot see the extra wires. 2) If there's any driver coil magic going on theres a clue, he uses a triangular shaped winding on the periphery windings and there's evidence he has added lengths of wire to lengthen the periphery coils as well (for what reason) 3) My best guess is he is using the periphery coil as a momentary brake, there is no way to make this coil set drive clockwise, the hall is too close to the driving coils for that, the purpose of the momentary brake to be applied is to regulate the speed, simple, no need for fancy PWM controllers, setting the right speed is important to Romero we already know this because his motor does not run at an enormous speed, so one would ask why when normally the faster you can get the more power output from the gen coils. These are all clues. 4) I think Romero worked on a straight forward angle to minimize drive power and maximize power production, and during plotting speed versus power out he found some anomalous measurement areas, i have already witnessed these on my voltage meter across the cap, at lower revs my cap suddenly jumps up in steps of voltage instead of a nice linear increase with increasing revs. @Peterae 1) It should not be that difficult to implement. I don't know enough about hall sensors but if they have the same method as a micro switch, it is basically using the normally closed side instead of the normally open side. I don't know, but this is the answer. I have checked the logic out from all sides and this is the answer. Romero either knew this or there was a glitch in this drive circuit that caused this but whatever and regardless, this is how the drive coils must work. One on, One off. 2) Your observation confirms AOAO even more. If he put more winding on the D22 set, it is because he wanted the field to reach the next magnet coming in so he needed a stronger field. 3) There cannot be any break if you want something to advance with the least energy possible, the last thing you would want is a brake. The only thing you would want is a continuous forward motive force which AOAO offers. Using a brake and release may work when you have high torque available. You rev up your car and release the clutch. This does not apply to this device. 4) Forget about the power consumption. That is not important especially when you spend energy to produce the right effect, the payback comes later. What we need now is some serious brainstorming on the drive circuit. Not complicated. The solution is very simple but my EE is not good enough to figure it out. I am only good in the logical and physical methods. Actually, I can see the device working in my mind and play around with parameters to finally figure it out. I am telling you that once the AOAO method is fixed and locked in, the rest will be much easier, otherwise guys will be wasting time. wattsup Added; The 50% duty that I mentioned was only to say if the natural rotation and sensor activations occur end up being a total of 50% duty cycle, the energy would not be that much more then just pulsing the drive coils when the sensors are on. But forget about this anyways it does not matter. The energy consumed by the drives is not a problem, because all of that energy will be used for motive force. It is not a waste. Plus, all of that energy will be available to keep the drive coil pushing the rotor against the gen coil drag. « Last Edit: 2011-06-18, 16:34:19 by wattsup » --------------------------- http://etherimpress.com

EMdevices	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #182 on: 2011-06-18, 17:25:06 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Peter, I'm assuming your biasing magnets on top and bottom are oriented in such a way as to OPPOSE the rotor magnets, just like in RomeroUK's dynamo. To clarify even further, if the rotor has a N-pole facing UP, than the TOP biasing magnets have a N-pole facing DOWN, and the bottom biasing magnets a S-pole facing UP. Quote I had quiet a play last night , altering the rotor/stator gaps, played with magnet polarity on some of the gen coils and could not make any alteration to the flat period we are interested in Also, let us not forget, that waveform was taken under LOAD, and running in closed-loop! EM

BEP	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #183 on: 2011-06-18, 18:09:41 »
Group: Guest	Another point to remember... Distance adjustments were possible on may points - Not only the strength of magnets but distance between rotor and stators and stator to stator. Since the closer these become the more critical the adjustment you could have a gap set with a visible tolerance of 1 mm compared to pics and be miles from the force setting of his motor. Hysteresis of the cores are not likely exactly the same either. All of these are surely factors. As far as the wires: You could still have some timing differences. Worst case.... you could be applying current to a coil while the rotor magnet is still positioned to decrease the winding inductance. That alone would be good reason for the TIP42 to blow. Just an example: standard RS 1mH ferrite choke measures almost precisely 1 mH with a Q of 13 - add a 13x3mm neo to both ends and the measurement drops to .46 mH with a Q of 38. Put those neos in opposition and the measurements are much the same except the Q goes to 43. In other words.... As far as energy storage potential goes placing the high permeability low Q core between opposing magnetic fields reduces the apparent permeability slightly but greatly enhances the Q. So when things are right... I strongly suspect the issue of low voltage, low winding resistance/inductance, etc. will be forgotten. The odd running curve spots where there are bursts of voltage and current.... I think this will be the norm after you have three or more coils adjusted well and working sequentially. Just don't throw the baby out with the bath water, yet. Most of these motor principles were on my list for things to demonstrate on my OUR bench. It may happen, yet

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #184 on: 2011-06-18, 18:23:35 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	EM from a previous post of mine i established the bias magnets can only go one way up, i am using south up on rotor and the bias magnets can only go north up, the reason is he used the biggest bias magnet on a particular coil is because it orientates the rotor in the only position that aligns the rotor hall in the correct position to fire when at rest, as you have seen the in the video it rocks back and forth when power is applied this can only happen when the bias magnets are north up and the biggest magnet favours the rotor start position. WW yes indeed, infact i thought on this some today, it happened just after i placed the rotor magnet in a new way i twisted it slightly to see what the effect would be.

giantkiller	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #185 on: 2011-06-18, 18:46:44 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1572 Frequency equals matter...	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTHVYuBG3OY&feature=dgst_fri --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

giantkiller	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #186 on: 2011-06-18, 18:54:10 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1572 Frequency equals matter...	Repost the vid link and I will use my android spectrum analyzer to vid the display then you can see the pattern. Quote from: Peterae on 2011-06-18, 09:03:26 wattsup i am wondering if it would be possible to count the revs of the rotor frame by frame and work out what RPM he was running at with the bulbs on, probably impossible due to the low frames per second but just an idea, the other way i guess maybe to do an analysis of the sound spectrum. Maybe someone could point me to the best software to run for this, if i did a spectrum of the noise with his bulbs on and then ran the software live i could alter my supply voltage and tune for the same spectrum. Also now i realize he was running fairly slow i am thinking about super gluing 5mm magnets on top of the existing 10mm magnets to get it how he had is. --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #187 on: 2011-06-18, 19:10:31 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	Hi Gk That would be great, this is Romero's video i am interested in but i need to find the section, i am only interested when he has the bulb on so i will look through the video and add the time on the video below http://www.youtube.com/v/8KVU3ZM14rw&hl=en_US OK 2:26 he switches the bulb on and 4:46, it is here i would really like to know the noise spectrum, infact if you could do between 2:26 and 4:46 that way we could see if there are any differences between bulb on and off, i don't know it maybe easier for you to do the whole vid , it's what ever is easiest for you Thankyou Peter

giantkiller	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #188 on: 2011-06-19, 01:44:30 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1572 Frequency equals matter...	[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOpfnb4MXGU[/youtube] I could not get the video and the analyzer in the same shot but I did mention 2:46. Ran out of battery and camera doesn't focus up close. It is best to click on video and go straight to youtube. Maybe download it. --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #189 on: 2011-06-21, 22:12:12 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	Sorry for the delay gk, thankyou for the audio spectrum. Not had much time last couple of days, current work in progress is to build my RPM readout so i can see live the revs while i experiment and load up each coil. On another note what is this across the bridge, looks like a short from one side of the coil connection to the 0v bus side of the bridge. ------------------------ RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device whatisthat.JPG (43.89 kB, 1024x600 - viewed 826 times.)

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #190 on: 2011-06-21, 22:24:19 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	This bridge has the coil connected to the +V buss ------------------------ RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device whatisthat2.JPG (49.32 kB, 1024x600 - viewed 815 times.)

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #191 on: 2011-06-21, 22:28:54 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	Scrub the last image, it was blur from camera movement as can be seen here, but now the diode is the wrong way round look at the cathode marks EDIT Hey i just noticed something else on this frame, theres another hole drilled in the top plate with a wire going down that's not a coil wire,just let of the bridge under the black wire wow could it be some of this black wire is screened 2 core wire, the hole has the typical white glaze that you get when you drill through the perspex due to light refraction ------------------------ RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device whatisthat3.JPG (51.23 kB, 1024x600 - viewed 886 times.)

poynt99	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #192 on: 2011-06-22, 00:01:20 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3208 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Peter, that hole with the copper wire going down is the coil wire, isn't it? I think you might need a break from looking at all these close-ups .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #193 on: 2011-06-22, 09:04:59 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	Well maybe it is Darren, but it's unusual for it to be so far away, look at how close the wire is on the next clockwise coil, it's a few mm away from the edge of the coil, i will try to look at the video again and see if i can see the coil wire as well.

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #194 on: 2011-06-24, 18:10:41 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	Here's some inductance readings from the coil in situ No bias magnet Rotor magnet away from coil 1.84mH Rotor magnet under coil 982uH Half size bias coil North up Rotor magnet away from coil 1.836mH Rotor magnet under coil 1.80mH Half size bias coil South up Rotor magnet away from coil 1.253mH Rotor magnet under coil 552uH

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #195 on: 2011-06-24, 18:54:13 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	Forgot i only have 1 psu at home so cannot do wattsups tests tonight Here's a video of low RPM , all bridges connected and a 5 Watt bulb load The first video has no bias magnets on the stator plates apart from the large magnet on the coil being scoped and connected to the bridge.Notice i do see rotor modulation while the tests are run. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BN_QFP2jc8[/youtube] The second video is the same but without any bias magnet on the stator plate. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQT_OvkT_yU[/youtube]

BEP	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #196 on: 2011-06-24, 21:16:56 »
Group: Guest	Peterae, Do you have the metal washer installed with a non-metallic gap between the washers and stator magnet?

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #197 on: 2011-06-24, 21:27:55 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3867	Hi WW No not tried that, my magnets are sticking straight on to the washers, i can try that, the magnets come with separation washers and for good reason, i have 2 1cm magnets stuck together and i have been unable to separate them so far LOL What would you like a similar video with the magnet and the plastic spacer washer, will be tomorrow now though

BEP	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #198 on: 2011-06-24, 23:16:54 »
Group: Guest	No thanks. I suggest you try a ferrous washer attached to the rotor-side of the stator magnets, each separated by a plastic washer. If you have N35's or greater the spacer should be about 2mm thick or more. The outside diameter should be a couple of mm larger than the magnets. As you might guess, I believe the ferrous washers serve a purpose other than a place to stick the magnets Your scope shots with the 'bias' magnets tells me the stator field isn't to quick to separate on your rig. I'll be taking a bench break this weekend. Hopefully, I will be able to demonstrate my ideas better with some pics & data. Watch your fingers I have two ring magnets from military magnetrons that repel each other through 3/8" plate steel. I got them stuck together one time and think I stopped trying to separate them after two weeks of trying. Finally, I used a bench vise and hydraulic jack to separate them

duff	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #199 on: 2011-06-25, 01:14:58 »
Group: Guest	Peterae, To separate the magnets: Put on leather gloves, then place the edge of one magnet at the edge of a counter top while pushing downward on the second magnet. You should be able to slide it off. Be Careful. I have 2.5mm x 2.5mm discs and that works for me...

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