Proton NMR

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Author Topic: Proton NMR (Read 8563 times)

Smudge	Proton NMR « on: 2016-07-17, 11:44:01 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1870	Here is my paper on using proton NMR as a source of energy. Anyone interested in giving it a try? Smudge ------------------------ Some Thoughts on NMR.pdf (234.21 kB - downloaded 423 times.)

ion	Re: Proton NMR « Reply #1 on: 2016-07-19, 18:06:14 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	As time permits I will give this a try. Thank you for the excellent and inspiring paper. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

ion	Re: Proton NMR « Reply #2 on: 2016-07-20, 12:39:50 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Smudge, I see that you have included Fig 7 to describe the effective field lines of the pancake coils. Could you expand a bit on what the field generated by the pancake coils would look like e.g. include the FEMM analysis in your paper or just post it here. I'm trying to understand how the field lines generated by these pancake coils would interact with the static B field and the torus. Also, is there any concern for the phasing between these coils that should be included. I already have on hand some Brooks type coils that are 1/2 inch square in the cross section and about 4 inches in diameter. Could these work or should I try to fabricate the pancake coils? I also have some 4 inch speaker magnets on hand. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Grumage	Re: Proton NMR « Reply #3 on: 2016-07-20, 13:31:33 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2743	Dear ION. If you have a lathe the whole structure could be machined from two reasonably thick pieces of plastic. You could form the water channel in two halves, gasket and bolt together with Nylon screws. On the outside you could also machine a groove to carry the pancake winding. Just a thought, sitting or lying down is the only relief I'm getting ATM, so I'm musing. Cheers Grum. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

ion	Re: Proton NMR « Reply #4 on: 2016-07-20, 13:57:36 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: Grumage on 2016-07-20, 13:31:33 Dear ION. If you have a lathe the whole structure could be machined from two reasonably thick pieces of plastic. You could form the water channel in two halves, gasket and bolt together with Nylon screws. On the outside you could also machine a groove to carry the pancake winding. Just a thought, sitting or lying down is the only relief I'm getting ATM, so I'm musing. Cheers Grum. Hi Grum Yes I had considered that method but opted for a simpler closed tube construction, one end (mouth) of the tubing expanded slightly and glued into the tail end. Liquid is then injected with a hypo aided by a small air bleeder . Formers for the pancake coils are not really needed if one winds them and varnishes them using a special technique. e.g A pair of discarded CD's held between two larger and more rigid disks on an axle are spring loaded or otherwise precisely spaced and chucked into the very slow turning lathe or drill press. Varnish is added during the winding process and also helps to lubricate. The thin CD's can remain as part of the assembly and also aid to protect the coils, or they can be peeled away if a suitable mold release agent had been applied. If I were an expert machinist such as you are and if I had a good lathe like yours, I would reconsider turning the parts, but mine is a junker with too much "play" and too small a capacity for large work. I will need to replace the sleeve bearings in it someday as it has excessive "chatter". An alternative would be to use a flying cutter in the drill press with a specially shaped tool to cut the liquid channel, but those can be dangerous to use. Hope you are feeling better, I empathize with your back pain, though mine is not nearly as severe. Watch Rick Simpsons "Run From The Cure" second edition for one possible method of back pain relief. Kind Regards ION « Last Edit: 2016-07-20, 19:44:45 by ION » --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Smudge	Re: Proton NMR « Reply #5 on: 2016-07-20, 16:08:16 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1870	Ion, Here is the FEMM plot of field lines from the pancake coils. The blue rectangles represent the layer of wires. Of course FEMM shows a static field, it will actually be a RF field, and being radial to the main axis it is everywhere at right angles to the static field from the ferrite disc magnets. Without that RF field the proton magnetization vector will point along the static field. The RF field will drive the magnetization vector into precession and that precession will create an output RF field around the toroidal water core. The pancake coils cannot be thick else the magnets will be too far away from the core. The currents in the coils flows in opposite directions, one pancake CW and the other CCW. Smudge ------------------------ Proton NMR FEMM plot.jpg (174.41 kB, 524x522 - viewed 832 times.)

ion	Re: Proton NMR « Reply #6 on: 2016-07-21, 14:23:23 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: Smudge on 2016-07-20, 16:08:16 Ion, Here is the FEMM plot of field lines from the pancake coils. The blue rectangles represent the layer of wires. Of course FEMM shows a static field, it will actually be a RF field, and being radial to the main axis it is everywhere at right angles to the static field from the ferrite disc magnets. Without that RF field the proton magnetization vector will point along the static field. The RF field will drive the magnetization vector into precession and that precession will create an output RF field around the toroidal water core. The pancake coils cannot be thick else the magnets will be too far away from the core. The currents in the coils flows in opposite directions, one pancake CW and the other CCW. Smudge Smudge, thanks for clarifying with the FEMM plot. I understand the need for the RF field and basic operation of the device. I would surmise that the static B field must be very uniform, and the field from the pancake coils must be centered on the water bearing loop. I think this device is more viable than Gunderson's, but if precession can occur in a ferromagnetic material it begs the question: can we also try a ferromagnetic (ferrite) material in place of the water loop, or possibly use a ferrofluid? --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

giantkiller	Re: Proton NMR « Reply #7 on: 2016-07-25, 00:30:11 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1579 Frequency equals matter...	Well hell, this presents an interesting situation. If we get expulsion between to planes then are the flux fields then twisting in opposite directions depending on the freqs or harmons? Why, I haven't seen this step in any experiments or presentations. If they do spin in opposite directions(which they should) the reader coils will pick this up. Stands to reason since the fields coming off of galaxies are twisting gas clouds. As below is above. I'll come back later more drunk on the lesser of the perplexities of nature. Just sitting on the shore, skipping rocks across the high tension plenum. « Last Edit: 2016-07-25, 02:26:28 by giantkiller » --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

Smudge	Re: Proton NMR « Reply #8 on: 2016-07-25, 08:35:23 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1870	Quote from: giantkiller on 2016-07-25, 00:30:11 Well hell, this presents an interesting situation. If we get expulsion between to planes then are the flux fields then twisting in opposite directions depending on the freqs or harmons? If I I had the slightest idea on what you are asking I would attempt a reply Smudge

ion	Re: Proton NMR « Reply #9 on: 2016-07-25, 15:22:08 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	GK When you come back perhaps you could kindly explain your question with a bit more detail. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

giantkiller	Re: Proton NMR « Reply #10 on: 2016-07-26, 04:42:51 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1579 Frequency equals matter...	There's a phd on Youtube that creates galactic structures in a vacuum of plasma gas. In his demonstrations he poses two magnetic fields against each other and the viewer can clearly see that the area between the fields is spun debris. It is quite the eye opener as he shows large magnetic fields creating these. Fields which are too large for us to comprehend in the exo-galatic structures. --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

ion	Re: Proton NMR « Reply #11 on: 2016-07-28, 02:32:31 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	A friend was interested enough in the Proton NMR to turn out parts on his 3D printer for the torus and the pancake coils, so I should be putting Smudge's device together soon and post some pics as time permits. My magnets are slightly smaller than required and I was wondering if I should focus the PM flux field onto the torus using some soft iron disks or would possible induction of eddy currents dampen both the drive and the output signal. If not good, I'll have to find some larger diameter magnets. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Peterae	Re: Proton NMR « Reply #12 on: 2016-07-28, 18:38:27 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3869	I also have a 3d printer and had thought of the same idea but could not easily find the magnets, i have other ongoing projects at the moment and really cannot have another unfinished project, but if anyone on this side of the world wants to build one of these i can print the parts in plastic and ship them F.O.C.

verpies	Re: Proton NMR « Reply #13 on: 2016-07-29, 14:10:59 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3378	Quote from: ION on 2016-07-21, 14:23:23 I would surmise that the static B field must be very uniform, and the field from the pancake coils must be centered on the water bearing loop. Yes, and that will be the major problem with this setup (in addition to the skin effect in the windings). For example when the toroidal coil is wound directly on a thin-walled water-bearing tube, the magnetic flux density will be much stronger (and non-uniform) near the walls of this tube. See the image below: The most uniform field is in the center of the torroid/solenoid and in the center between the pancake coils. Quote from: ION on 2016-07-21, 14:23:23 ...if precession can occur in a ferromagnetic material it begs the question: can we also try a ferromagnetic (ferrite) material in place of the water loop, or possibly use a ferrofluid? Yes, but we already know, that any iron-bearing material, that forms magnetic domains, has a huge intrinsic 33 Tesla field formed between these domains and the Larmour frequency of nuclei in these domain walls is largely independent from the external DC fields and is fixed at 45.5MHz, for all but the very strong external DC bias fields (which oppose the internal 33T field and decrease the Larmour frequency, seemingly paradoxically). ------------------------ Proton NMR Solenoid Helical Coarse.jpg (55.67 kB, 640x480 - viewed 708 times.) « Last Edit: 2016-07-30, 00:37:46 by verpies »

Smudge	Re: Proton NMR « Reply #14 on: 2016-07-30, 12:00:04 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1870	Quote from: verpies on 2016-07-29, 14:10:59 Yes, and that will be the major problem with this setup (in addition to the skin effect in the windings). For example when the toroidal coil is wound directly on a thin-walled water-bearing tube, the magnetic flux density will be much stronger (and non-uniform) near the walls of this tube. See the image below: The most uniform field is in the center of the torroid/solenoid and in the center between the pancake coils. The field from the toroidal coil is not the static field that must be uniform, neither is the field from the pancake coil. The pancake coil is the RF drive coil and the toroidal coil is the RF output coil. It is only the field from the magnet that has to be uniform throughout the water. Smudge

verpies	Re: Proton NMR « Reply #15 on: 2016-07-30, 17:27:20 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3378	OK, if that is the function of these windings then their field uniformity is not important. Nonetheless, the enhancement factor in domain walls is ~10⁴, so iron should yield much higher output amplitude than water ...unless it is magnetized to a single domain state and the domain walls disappear. « Last Edit: 2016-07-30, 19:08:48 by verpies »

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