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Author Topic: Induction  (Read 51790 times)

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tExB=qr
magnetic potential is outside the core
   
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For those thinking field lines cutting wire or wire cutting field lines is a valid statement....

   
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For those thinking field lines cutting wire or wire cutting field lines is a valid statement....


In the same way (a good exercice for all experimenters  O0):
http://www.maxim-ic.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/2238

Nevertheless it doesn't dismiss flux cutting which is one of the best way to explain the phenomenon because it is a causal explanation. A varying flux through the circuit surface is a mathematical method to compute emf, it is not the reason of induction, otherwise induction would be non local.
The computation of induction from the vector potential is by far the best method. It works in any case, and it is causal and local if we agree about the physical reality of this potential.

   
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For those thinking field lines cutting wire or wire cutting field lines is a valid statement....


Are you assuming this example some how contradicts those basic assumptions?  


This example is very easy to understand and we had this discussion before elsewere.  It's demonstrated in physics classes to get the student to think about magnetic flux and not just circuit components.


A)   In the left drawing, the changing flux induces a curent in the loop and the lighbulbs are ON.   The voltage across the light bulbs builds up because of their RESISTENCE.  This is the difference between a CURRENT SOURCE AND A VOLTAGE SOURCE.  

B)   In the right drawing,  the current flows through the switch BECAUSE IT'S THE LEAST RESTRICTIVE PATH.


Basic electrodynamic theory.

EM
   
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Yes, I understand it.

I also understand that flux lines are only a concept to make the understanding of the function and the math more palatable. They don't exist any more than topographic lines exist in the real world.

My point was that induction isn't based upon some imaginary lines cutting across wires or vice verse. It is due to the area of the wire loop and a relative change in flux density within that area.

A prime example was a simple magnetic remote control I built several years ago. The output was basically RF at 35kHz. It would work fine as long as it was within the receiving loop. It didn't seem to matter how big the loop was. To my surprise it worked just as well with the receiving loop wrapped around the entire house one time. With the small loop (the same length of wire wrapped in multiple turns) it had to be within a few inches of the loop. With no changes to the transmitter it worked just as well within a the same wire loop wrapped around the house with about 40 ft. diameter.

A better example is a toroidal transformer core. Supposedly, the magnetic forces are all contained within that core. If flux lines cutting wires was the way it worked most transformers wouldn't work.

Anyway, it is just a sticking point for me. When I see someone talk about flux cutting wires or wires cutting flux it is like they are dragging their front teeth across a chalkboard producing a big screeching noise  :o
   
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I'll try to remember that:    No more flux cutting for you!    ;D


I'm kind of rebel too, I've been thinking of all sorts of examples on how to disprove certain concepts held dear by others, but I gave up, they are tools like you say, and I've learned to use the correct tool for the job.

We know there are no flux LINES, only flux.   A line is a prop to help other understand.   In actuality we have a smootly varring vector field, no sharp, distincitve, easily identifiable "LINES".

EM
   
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In actuality we have a smootly varring vector field, no sharp, distincitve, easily identifiable "LINES".

I wish my vector fields were still smooth. The lines are visible on me, now  :'( (wrinkles)

Quote
I'm kind of rebel too, I've been thinking of all sorts of examples on how to disprove certain concepts held dear by others, but I gave up, they are tools like you say, and I've learned to use the correct tool for the job.

Don't give up on that. There are folks out there needing correction. Think about it.

One minute they are saying all the magnetic force is contained within the toroidal core.
The next minute they are talking about flux cutting wire.

Is there any wonder people freak out when a circuit shows a non-conservative electric field and seems to defy a basic law?

In another post you said the angle of the magnetic field is contained within the formula. Yes, it is but.... not many seem to know that and probably can't calculate induction unless cos(angle) equates to zero or 180.

Maybe it doesn't really matter because induction never goes to zero regardless of the angle - most examples of calculating induction become more and more incorrect as the magnetic field approaches being parallel with the conductor loop. I suppose that is why we have knobs for tuning  :D
« Last Edit: 2011-08-18, 22:50:30 by WaveWatcher »
   
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...
My point was that induction isn't based upon some imaginary lines cutting across wires or vice verse.

I agree, with restriction (see below).

Quote
It is due to the area of the wire loop and a relative change in flux density within that area.

I disagree.
There is only one cause for moving electrons: an electric field in which electrons are submitted to the force F=q*E and therefore creates a current. There is no other way.
A varying magnetic flux through a surface doesn't create this field. A varying magnetic flux through a surface is only a concommitant phenomenon with the existence, at the position of the electrons, of a vector potential A, which is the only cause to create the electric field E (E=-dA/dt). The computation of the emf from the flux through a surface is just math (it follows from Gauss's law).

Back to the imaginary field lines. Although they are "imaginary", they are a much better guide to interpret induction than flux through a surface. A varying magnetic flux is wrongly thought as something flowing along a path, such a river, and that could be modulated or interrupted. This is totally false, this magnetic "flux" is a confusing term that leads to misinterpretations. In fact, a magnetic flux is formed of field circles around a conductor carrying a current. When the current increases, the circles expand. But along the circles, there is nothing flowing, no flux, it is static. Therefore the imaginary "density of field lines" is a better image, a much better way of thinking about what is really going on, than a "flux" that wrongly suggests a flow of something that doesn't exist.


   

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I disagree.
There is only one cause for moving electrons: an electric field in which electrons are submitted to the force F=q*E and therefore creates a current. There is no other way.

What about particles drifts?  This occurs from a combination of fields.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guiding_center

   
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Quote
There is only one cause for moving electrons: an electric field in which electrons are submitted to the force F=q*E and therefore creates a current. There is no other way.


Quote
The greatest obstacle to progress in science is the illusion of knowledge, the illusion that we know what's going on when we really don't. ~Prof. Mike Disney

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---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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"It is due to the area of the wire loop and a relative change in flux density within that area."

I disagree.

To be completely honest, you should disagree. I have as much trouble with -the only flux that matters is within the area of the loop- as I do with nonexistent field lines. I did not wish to go beyond robbing the lines from folks. At least, not immediately  ;)

In reality.... -the flux in loop surface area- is how induction is taught at higher levels - or it was at one time.

Quote
There is only one cause for moving electrons: an electric field in which electrons are submitted to the force F=q*E and therefore creates a current. There is no other way.

I hope you jest.

Electron motion is not current flow in a metal conductor. In many cases the electrons actually travel the opposite direction of current flow and at velocities I can match afoot. My best understanding of electric current in a metal wire is that charge is moving at some sizable fraction of c not electrons.

I must assume your 'q' is actually 'Q' (charge in this context - not 'C' as most cases). I think the beginning of this misconception was before the particle (electron) was discovered. 'electron' once meant 'charge' but hasn't since the particle was discovered. Some things are hard to let go even after more than a hundred years  :)

Quote
Back to the imaginary field lines. Although they are "imaginary", they are a much better guide to interpret induction than flux through a surface. A varying magnetic flux is wrongly thought as something flowing along a path, such a river, and that could be modulated or interrupted. This is totally false, this magnetic "flux" is a confusing term that leads to misinterpretations. In fact, a magnetic flux is formed of field circles around a conductor carrying a current. When the current increases, the circles expand. But along the circles, there is nothing flowing, no flux, it is static. Therefore the imaginary "density of field lines" is a better image, a much better way of thinking about what is really going on, than a "flux" that wrongly suggests a flow of something that doesn't exist.

I see I should not toy with the tools used by others.

In your imagination with those field lines picture a toroid shaped magnetic field around a vertical bar magnet, North on top and South on bottom. See those field lines in your imagination? Also look at the electric current traveling around the 'equator' of that toroid shaped magnetic field - the one producing the magnetic field -.

Now move your perspective directly above the bar magnet looking down on the North pole. You see one polarity with field lines radiating out to infinity and what appeared as the electric current before now looks like the magnetic field around this apparent point charge(Moving point charge  ;)). Look from below and see the same except you see only the other polarity and the apparent magnetic field is going around the other direction.

The magnetic field lines (only when you viewed from the side) are always connected - as you have stated. The only exception is during magnet reconnection.

As is well thought the electric field is just a different view of a magnetic field. I am quite sure they are both one and the same as viewed from different frames of reference.

Until I rid myself of the field lines it was impossible to see how both could be the same. Maybe that was only a personal problem  C.C

One good thing has come about......  Those pesky magnetic field lines of the Earth no longer foul up my lawn mower blades  ;D
(Sometimes imagination isn't a good thing)

   
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WW said:

Quote
One good thing has come about......  Those pesky magnetic field lines of the Earth no longer foul up my lawn mower blades  Grin
(Sometimes imagination isn't a good thing)

Perhaps with the right kind of lawn mower blades, you wouldn't need the engine.

Moving at 1000 mph at the equator through this stationary "field", it might only require a tiny disturbance, perhaps a conduit that guides the flux into a coriolis type spin. Then you will have what SM was talking about. Provide the conduit and the flux will spinnup with the equivalent speed of a generator circumference of one foot going 88,000 RPM.

Even the rather weak flux of the earth field would produce noticable power at that speed.

You are  right about that imagination thing.


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Something akin to a spinning charge
   
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Something akin to a spinning charge

Ah! Yes!

But folks would be forced to admit that a point charge isn't - otherwise spinning a charge would be the same as 5 physicists changing a lightbulb.

One at the top of the ladder grasping the bulb and four grabbing the ladder legs, jumping and screaming 'Ok, somebody turn the building from the external frame of reference!'

ION,

The equator is the last place for the high speed run to cut flux lines. There the output would be null.

   
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Quote
There is only one cause for moving electrons: an electric field in which electrons are submitted to the force F=q*E and therefore creates a current. There is no other way.


That's only half the equation.  Here's the complete one.   ;)

F = q ( E + v X B)
   
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@exnihiloest
Quote
There is only one cause for moving electrons: an electric field in which electrons are submitted to the force F=q*E and therefore creates a current. There is no other way.

Quote
The greatest obstacle to progress in science is the illusion of knowledge, the illusion that we know what's going on when we really don't. ~Prof. Mike Disney
Regards
AC

I'm very impressed by allcanadian's scientific argumentation. May be he discovered a new force for putting an electron in motion and he want keep for himself the discovery   ;D.


   
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@exnihiloest

That's only half the equation.  Here's the complete one.   ;)

F = q ( E + v X B)


In any case, a magnetic field cannot be the cause for putting an electron in motion. It can only deviate a moving electron (without providing energy unlike the electric field which provides the energy for the electron to accelerate in the field).
I know the complete form of the Lorentz force. Your remark is irrelevant here. My post was relative to the context of induction which is the subject of the thread and where there is no already moving charges in the magnetic field: at the begining, electrons are at v=0 in the conductor, therefore q.v X B=0 whatever the magnetic field and we are left with F=q.E.
To put formulae from conventional physics but outside the context or the domain of validity and without explaining the physical phenomena they are related to, is useless.

Why induction from a physical viewpoint? A varying magnetic field implies that the electrons of the magnetic source are accelerating. Therefore their electric field is no more isotropic around them,  question of relativity. At the position of the electrons at rest in the induced conductor, there is a non null resultant of this electric field (given by -dA/dt) generating an emf along a looped path. It is a real electric field E providing a force F=q.E but not deriving from a potential; it gives the physical explanation. It is straightforward. In other words the force onto electrons giving a current in an induced conductor is due to the electric field of the electrons of the magnetic source whose the acceleration reshapes the topology of their electric field by leaving a non null resultant at the position of the "induced electrons".


   
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To put formulae from conventional physics but outside the context or the domain of validity and without explaining the physical phenomena they are related to, is useless.


Please forgive me. I just wanted a copy of that statement  :)
   
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A varying magnetic field implies that the electrons of the magnetic source are accelerating.


Electrons are accelerating regardless, they go round and round under centripetal acceleration, so we are told.   However, assuming we have a TIME INVARIANT non-uniform magnetic field in a stationary frame of reference, and our frame of reference is moving relative to this stationary one, we will see a changing magnetic field due to the spacial non-uniformity and our motion through this field, but the field is not time varying.  So does this mean the "electrons of the magnetic source" are now all of a sudden accelerating just because we are moving?   In other words, they see us moving and they say, yo, let's start accelerating, these dudes are coming!  ;D  :D    


Quote
It is straightforward. In other words the force onto electrons giving a current in an induced conductor is due to the electric field of the electrons of the magnetic source whose the acceleration reshapes the topology of their electric field by leaving a non null resultant at the position of the "induced electrons".

You really should make room for magnetic fields in your portfolio of physical concepts.   And when you've managed that, than add frames of reference and relativity as well.   >:-)
« Last Edit: 2011-08-20, 22:21:59 by EMdevices »
   

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I'll go out on a limb, while being deliberately vague, and say that you can move particles by coupling to their charge or by coupling to their spin. 

The the spin and the charge aspects can be separated, so it is reasonable that you can interact with either one, or both.  The separation is called spin-charge separation and the electron is split into a spinon and a holon (chargon) (quasiparticles).

   
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Electrons are accelerating regardless, they go round and round under centripetal acceleration, so we are told.   However, assuming we have a TIME INVARIANT non-uniform magnetic field in a stationary frame of reference, and our frame of reference is moving relative to this stationary one, we will see a changing magnetic field due to the spacial non-uniformity and our motion through this field, but the field is not time varying.  So does this mean the "electrons of the magnetic source" are now all of a sudden accelerating just because we are moving?   In other words, they see us moving and they say, yo, let's start accelerating, these dudes are coming!  ;D  :D

A "TIME INVARIANT non-uniform magnetic field in a stationary frame of reference" cannot put electrons in motion, otherwise a current would appear in any stationary conductor near a permanent magnet, and this is not observed.

Quote
You really should make room for magnetic fields in your portfolio of physical concepts.   And when you've managed that, than add frames of reference and relativity as well.   >:-)

You do still not understand that you can't attach a reference frame to a magnetic field. A field can't move. A field is not an object, it is a characterisation of a local property. When a magnet moves, the "moving field" is just an image: the field doesn't really move, it is only the field intensity that changes at the location we observe, depending on the motion of the field source. Relativity applies only to these quantities that an observer can measure or would measure if he was in another frame.
You should learn physics before giving lessons and saying others what they have to do.   :P 

   
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Ex & EM,

I think we are at that familiar point where you are both saying the same thing from different perspectives, for the most part.

Ex,

EM was speaking of a static field of uneven shape being viewed by a viewer in motion around that static field. Frames of reference aside, that viewer would be seeing an apparent change in that static field. There would be induction even without an emf in that field. The only motion/change required is relative motion/change.

It is true you cannot associate a frame of reference to a field but you can to the space containing that field. This doesn't matter until the field is not some uniform shape appearing the same from all external points, as EM has suggested.

Grumpy,

Thanks for mentioning separation of spin and charge. I think this is where the rubber hits the road on what an electric current really is. It is clear that a current is not made of flowing electrons. It should be clear that current consists of charge transport. Since charge and spin(the electron?) can be separated, this makes current flow far more believable without always doing nuclear damage to the conductor.

Since charge may move much faster than the snail's crawl of a current induced electron we can continue with a realistic description of electric current flow.
Maybe this is a step to discovering what charge is and what a magnetic field really is?


   
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...
Ex,

EM was speaking of a static field of uneven shape being viewed by a viewer in motion around that static field. Frames of reference aside, that viewer would be seeing an apparent change in that static field. There would be induction even without an emf in that field. The only motion/change required is relative motion/change.

It is true you cannot associate a frame of reference to a field but you can to the space containing that field. This doesn't matter until the field is not some uniform shape appearing the same from all external points, as EM has suggested.
...

WW, you get a good interpretation of what EM is saying.
I agree that you can associate a frame to a space containing a field, but contrarily to what EM suggests, you can't say that the field has a speed v relative to this frame, nor is at rest in this frame. You can only say that at point (x,y,z,t) of this space, the field intensity is B.  B is a vector without speed.
It is a big misunderstanding to imagine a field with a speed i.e. to imagine a frame of reference in which the field would be "at rest". This misunderstanding leads to a false paradox in Faraday motor (V in F=q.VxB is relative to the observer, not to the field, so no paradox).

About the induction, a B field in "not some uniform shape" can't be the cause for an electron to move. If only a not uniform magnetic field in space could move an electron, then currents would appear in stationary circuits placed in areas near permanent magnets where there is a field gradient. This is not observed.

When an electron is at rest, in respect to its own reference frame in which it is at rest, none magnetic field can move it because V=0 so F=q.VxB=0, but only an electric field. For induction, this field is E=-dA/dt, therefore a time variation is needed and from the viewpoint of the electron, the force it feels is F=q.E.

When an electron is not at rest (i.e. is moving at speed V relative to the frame of the observer, not of the magnetic field), then the observer see a force F=q.VxB acting onto the electron. But the electron doesn't see the force F=q.VxB: from its own reference frame, it is still the electric field E=-dA/dt that it feels. Of course this is the two aspects of the same phenomenon of relativity, interpreted either in the reference frame of the electron (F=q.e with E=-dA/dt) or in the reference frame of an observer in which electron speed is V (F=q.VxB).
Naturally the viewpoint of the electron is the more interesting because it gives directly the causal explanation for it to move.

   

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Since charge may move much faster than the snail's crawl of a current induced electron we can continue with a realistic description of electric current flow.
Maybe this is a step to discovering what charge is and what a magnetic field really is?


I'm sure it is.

Moving "spin" begets the magnetic field.  So, create a macroscopic spin field and it will induce a current in a conductor.  Like connecting to the wheel-work of nature.

 ;)
   
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You should learn physics before giving lessons and saying others what they have to do.

FYI:   I have taken more electromagnetic classes in grad school than people take math classes in most science programs, and have used this knowledge to design many devices and the theory hasn't disappointed me yet,  so that's why I'm commenting on this subject.

However, I can see that you have erroneous preconceived ideas which are hard to let go of because of your intellectual pride or inflexibility to learning new things, if indeed you've learned something correct the first time.  So I suggest it is you who needs to learn physics and electrodynamics in particular before posting nonsense and foolishness.   So many people come on these forums and think they know something, and this way so much crap is fed to the masses.  Go read a book on electrodynamics and learn what I suggested for you and than we'll talk.

EM
« Last Edit: 2011-08-22, 06:39:28 by EMdevices »
   
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