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Author Topic: Naudin's Gegene  (Read 204706 times)

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Buy me some coffee
Maybe i am joining this discussion a bit late  :)

Ex when you search for the principle of operation regarding these induction cookers why do the documents mention series resonance and use resonant capacitors in series with the coil.

I mean are you saying these are not resonant.
   
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I mean are you saying these are not resonant.

?

First, there was no resonance
Second, resonance may or may not exist in the circuit but plays no appreciable role in the circuit function
Third, resonance may be used as part of a feedback control loop
Overall, the primary coil with any sizable load applied to it only functions as a transformer
And, in transformer action resonance is not an appreciable factor.

???

I think that sums up the time-line  C.C
   
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?

First, there was no resonance
Second, resonance may or may not exist in the circuit but plays no appreciable role in the circuit function
Third, resonance may be used as part of a feedback control loop
Overall, the primary coil with any sizable load applied to it only functions as a transformer
And, in transformer action resonance is not an appreciable factor.

???

I think that sums up the time-line  C.C

You gave all the points that have been discussed. Here are some precisions:

First, "there was no resonance" because I believed that we were interested in the principle of functioning (induction power), not in the engineering.

Second, resonance may or may not exist in an induction heater because we can implement different methods to switch the IGBT (self-oscillator or control signal).

Third, resonance may be used as part of a feedback control loop, that's the method for an oscillator. You may say that there is a "resonance" here because a capacitor is connecting the IGBT input from the primary coil, and thus constitutes a LC circuit whose the time constant determines the working frequency, but imho "resonance" is a rather misleading term considering the low Q and the lack of overvoltage.

Overall, the primary coil with any sizable load applied to it only functions as a transformer: it's right, a part of the energy being possibly looped back to the input by a capacitor in the oscillator mode.
 
And, in transformer action resonance is not an appreciable factor. EM himself estimated the Q around 1, which is a weak resonance.

   

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Buy me some coffee
OK thanks for summing that up guys   :)
   
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OK thanks for summing that up guys   :)

Peterae, here is what follows, I have not had the time to post my reply to your previous post:

...
Ex when you search for the principle of operation regarding these induction cookers why do the documents mention series resonance and use resonant capacitors in series with the coil.

I mean are you saying these are not resonant.
...

"Resonance" is just a word. If Q=0.5 or Q=1011, "resonance" doesn't say the difference. We must know what we are talking about.

If the capacitor made the coil resonant in a significant manner, we should observe a sine signal.
You can observe (http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/images/gegene13cCURa.jpg) that the positive voltage is about twice the negative. The mean voltage being 0 because we have AC, this means that the negative pulses are larger than the positives ones. The signal is not sine => spectrum is not a single resonant frequency.
Then there is almost no significant overvoltage (http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/images/gegene13cVTGa.jpg). The reason is that the IGBTs are switching components, they don't control a sine wave. When one is ON and the other OFF, the primary coil voltage is imposed, deleting the building of a resonant energy. So I think that the Q is much less than 1, perhaps not even 0.5 which doesn't prevent an oscillator to run.

Surely the capacitor is favouring the switching frequency and its role is essentially to avoid a too high or an unstable switching frequency that otherwise would occur, by lack of well defined time constant.

Compare the resonance here with that one of a mechanical oscillator (Q= 5=>10), a bad LC oscillators (Q=10), LC or lines oscillators (20=>100), high-Q active inductor (500=>3000),  RF cavity (some thousands), quartz crystal oscillator (5000=>30000), single-crystal silicon micromechanical oscillator (10 000=>100 000), supermirror (1011).
If one still really want to speak of resonance, formally one may, but the effect here is not significant.

Note that in your schematics the serial LC circuit using the 940nF should enhance a little the resonance but in most of the schematics that I saw here and there, there is not this circuit but only the primary coil connected to the IGBTs.

   
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« Last Edit: 2015-05-01, 16:30:49 by Paul-R »
   
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For ideal Gegene research: Induction hobs for £29;

Thurs May 7th 2015 to Sunday only:

https://www.aldi.co.uk/en/specialbuys/thur-7-may/product-detail/ps/p/single-induction-hob-2/

Time limited offer. Could be dependent on locality. Check with your nearest Aldi.
   
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Posts: 1578
For ideal Gegene research: Induction hobs for £29;

Thurs May 7th 2015 to Sunday only:

https://www.aldi.co.uk/en/specialbuys/thur-7-may/product-detail/ps/p/single-induction-hob-2/

Time limited offer. Could be dependent on locality. Check with your nearest Aldi.
This offer has expired but today, Thursday May 11th 2015, I found a considerable stock of the same unit, but made by Slivercrest, on sale at Lidl.
   
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