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OverUnity Research > Benches > PhysicsProf (Moderator: PhysicsProf) > Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing
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Author Topic: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing  (Read 173855 times)
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img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #225 on: 2012-08-04, 11:53:20 »
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Quote from: Hoppy on 2012-08-04, 11:49:29
There are clearly many circuit configurations that can be tried but the acid test of self-running is to leave it running long enough for it to cease running.  O0

Hoppy

My battery is 4.5Ah so it should run at least 6 days if its not charging it self.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #226 on: 2012-08-04, 14:18:26 »
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This is also an interesting configuration if you dont have access to super-caps.

If the motor is spun by hand or started with a battery it will run a VERY long time utilizing the flywheel effect and BEMF of the motor as energy-storage.

The relay only draws 7.5mA to keep the motor spinning and the BEMF charges the cap it is running from.

This is probably not a self-runner but the small power reqired to keep the momentum could be provided by a garden-light solarcell and the energy could be harvested from the relaycoil kickback.

Or even 2 ground-rods to handle the current spikes.

I have a large 24V Scooter-motor and 4 15000uF 63V caps to try this generator setup with.
I just need to find a large flywheel to put on the motor.
« Last Edit: 2012-08-04, 16:38:20 by janost »
   
img  wattsup
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #227 on: 2012-08-04, 17:48:13 »
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@janost

Regarding the last diagram above, I see you are using a mechanical relay in that set-up. I have done much pulsing schemes with relays especially during some tests with the Tesla ozone patent where there is first a good source coil of high inductive ability on the negative line from the battery. When I ran the system and optimized it and needed to create a new effect for faster pulsing because of the mechanical drawbacks of the relay, the only thing I could find was to cut the relay spring that pulls back the relay contacts by one turn at a time, making it act a little faster as long as the relay coil has enough juice to draw it in. If you only have one relay of that type this is not a good idea but if you have an extra relay on hand that can remain original, it may be a way to push your circuit further.

Then there is the DC motor where if it is using carbon brushes on a commutator, sometimes if the brush is filled down on the width (not the face) slightly it will create more kickback because there is a slight delay in the commutator to commutator overlapping.

I guess what I am trying to convey is that yes you can play around with variables of the EE components, but the mechanical attributes can be slightly modified as well, but it is a learning curve that does not forgive and having two identical motors or relays is the best to be able to revert back to the original set-up if the physical mods do not pan out.

I am curious to know if you put a potentiometer in series to a small polarized capacitor that are both in series on the positive line going to the relay coil, could this enable you to adjust a more suitable operation of the relay?
 
wattsup

Added:

Maybe add a germanium diode in series to the pot as well.



---------------------------
http://etherimpress.com
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #228 on: 2012-08-04, 20:51:41 »
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Quote from: wattsup on 2012-08-04, 17:48:13
@janost

Regarding the last diagram above, I see you are using a mechanical relay in that set-up. I have done much pulsing schemes with relays especially during some tests with the Tesla ozone patent where there is first a good source coil of high inductive ability on the negative line from the battery. When I ran the system and optimized it and needed to create a new effect for faster pulsing because of the mechanical drawbacks of the relay, the only thing I could find was to cut the relay spring that pulls back the relay contacts by one turn at a time, making it act a little faster as long as the relay coil has enough juice to draw it in. If you only have one relay of that type this is not a good idea but if you have an extra relay on hand that can remain original, it may be a way to push your circuit further.

Then there is the DC motor where if it is using carbon brushes on a commutator, sometimes if the brush is filled down on the width (not the face) slightly it will create more kickback because there is a slight delay in the commutator to commutator overlapping.

I guess what I am trying to convey is that yes you can play around with variables of the EE components, but the mechanical attributes can be slightly modified as well, but it is a learning curve that does not forgive and having two identical motors or relays is the best to be able to revert back to the original set-up if the physical mods do not pan out.

I am curious to know if you put a potentiometer in series to a small polarized capacitor that are both in series on the positive line going to the relay coil, could this enable you to adjust a more suitable operation of the relay?
 
wattsup

Added:

Maybe add a germanium diode in series to the pot as well.



Thanks for the input. You are sharp :)
   
img  Paul-R
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #229 on: 2012-08-05, 15:11:50 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-04, 14:18:26
This is also an interesting configuration if you dont have access to super-caps.

If the motor is spun by hand or started with a battery...
This will need to be an outrunnner type motor with magnets generating
fields, won't it?
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #230 on: 2012-08-05, 17:59:49 »
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Quote from: Paul-R on 2012-08-05, 15:11:50
This will need to be an outrunnner type motor with magnets generating
fields, won't it?

Yes.
Otherwise it would need power to the stator to act as a generator.

And brushless motors are AC.
While working prefectly well as 3-phase generators, they need 3-phase AC to run.

I also have an old vacuum-cleaner motor that would generate line-level power.
But as they are the universal type it wont generate any BEMF without at least a capacitor on the statorwinding.
   
img  Paul-R
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #231 on: 2012-08-06, 15:34:22 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-04, 14:18:26
If the motor is spun by hand or started with a battery...
It would be interesting to stick a stroboscopic disc to the flywheel (to determine
the r.p.m. when viewed with artificial light), disconnect the circuit, and spin it
up to a certain arbitrary speed. Time how long it takes to come to rest.

Then connect up the circuit, spin the motor up to the same speed, judging
by the stroboscopic disc, and time how long it takes to come to rest.

And compare the times.

Here is a stroboscopic disc:
http://www.mbhifi.it/engvolet.htm
« Last Edit: 2012-08-08, 23:25:25 by Paul-R »
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #232 on: 2012-08-08, 21:46:35 »
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Sorry for not updating lately but my summer holiday is over and I have to work.
Work gives me money to experiment with new things.
And also food and a roof over my head :)

But I'll still post here, just not as frequently.
   
img  Paul-R
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #233 on: 2012-08-09, 12:31:39 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-08-04, 14:18:26
This is also an interesting configuration if you dont have access to super-caps.

If the motor is spun by hand or started with a battery it will run a VERY long time utilizing the flywheel effect and BEMF of the motor as energy-storage.

The relay only draws 7.5mA to keep the motor spinning and the BEMF charges the cap it is running from.

This is probably not a self-runner but the small power reqired to keep the momentum could be provided by a garden-light solarcell and the energy could be harvested from the relaycoil kickback.

Or even 2 ground-rods to handle the current spikes.

I have a large 24V Scooter-motor and 4 15000uF 63V caps to try this generator setup with.
I just need to find a large flywheel to put on the motor.
The motor will be providing an oscillating input to a circuit containing two or more
of R, L or C.

Therefore, there should be a resonance optimising issue, shouldn't there?
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #234 on: 2012-08-09, 18:46:16 »
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Quote from: Paul-R on 2012-08-09, 12:31:39
The motor will be providing an oscillating input to a circuit containing two or more
of R, L or C.

Therefore, there should be a resonance optimising issue, shouldn't there?

Yes.
The resonance is in the combination of the flywheel-momentum and the capacitor.

Energy is stored in the rotation of the flywheel and the relay just adds from the capacitor what is needed to keep the speed up.
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #235 on: 2012-10-08, 19:48:43 »
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« Last Edit: 2012-10-11, 09:34:03 by janost »
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #236 on: 2012-10-08, 20:15:09 »
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« Last Edit: 2012-10-11, 09:34:27 by janost »
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #237 on: 2012-10-08, 20:40:36 »
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« Last Edit: 2012-10-11, 09:34:53 by janost »
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #238 on: 2012-10-09, 07:27:13 »
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« Last Edit: 2012-10-11, 09:36:18 by janost »
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #239 on: 2012-10-09, 08:46:59 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-10-08, 19:48:43
Guess who's back  :)
And back with a new selfrunner  O0
...

I have plenty of selfrunners with a battery. I have also many selfrunners on the mains. I have some other selfrunners based on gasoline. But you know, here, we are rather interested in selfrunners without conventional sources of energy  ;D.
It is easy to make electronics oscillators working with very weak currents. A NDR is not even the best solution, I can build a FET oscillator working with less than 5v, 1mA, i.e. for months on a battery or for hours on a capacitor. And what? Should I claim a "selfrunner"?!  C.C

The fact that the power that is consumed can be less when the system is looped is irrelevant, because the power that is drawn depends on the point of operation, which depends on the parameters of the circuit.
A negative resistance is a dynamical effect appearing around a given point V/I of polarization. Only a variation around the point of operation is negative, meaning that Rn=dV/dI<0. But the resistance is globally positive, meaning that R=V/I>0 and therefore dissipates energy.

« Last Edit: 2012-10-09, 09:39:08 by exnihiloest »
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #240 on: 2012-10-09, 09:07:04 »
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« Last Edit: 2012-10-11, 09:37:46 by janost »
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #241 on: 2012-10-09, 09:30:40 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-10-09, 09:07:04
Who are "we"?
Do you know that you just positioned yourself as a frontfigure for the whole forum?

You should think to the name of this forum: "overunityresearch". It's not "conventional electronics fun".

Quote
I would define a selfrunner as something that runs for weeks or years and delivers power during that time.

Don't worry, it is really what I had understood. That is why I said that I have also plenty of selfrunners.

Quote
Taken that it's just a cople of hours to charge that battery up again.

Certainly not.

Quote
If I can make it run for a week on a cap, isn't that a selfrunner?

It's not.
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #242 on: 2012-10-09, 09:34:57 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-10-09, 09:07:04
Who are "we"?
Do you know that you just positioned yourself as a frontfigure for the whole forum?

I would define a selfrunner as something that runs for weeks or years and delivers power during that time.
Taken that it's just a cople of hours to charge that battery up again.

If I can make it run for a week on a cap, isn't that a selfrunner?


People have different definitions for many things.

My definition of a self runner is a device that once started by a minimal amount of operator applied energy
the device will produce it's own motive power indefinitely, it needs not provide a usable output just self run.
The device should need to be stopped purposefully after any reasonable length of time, no one expects a self
runner to be able to run without maintainence for months.
But a self runner cannot be supplied a constant supply of user provided energy. If running from a cap there should
either be a net gain of potential energy in the capacitor or an unchanging value, if the cap loses charge then the
device will eventually stop and so cannot be called as self runner.

Efficiency itself is not really based on the smaller the input the more efficient it is. If the tiny input of even 1 hundredth
of a Watt was all wasted and no useful work is gained from it then it is very inefficient. Things that would seem to be efficient
at very low power levels often are not at higher power levels, so the usefulness is limited of many low powered circuits.

It is also much easier to make measurement errors with lower levels of power so many are not convinced by LED power level device efficiencies.

If you think you may be onto something don't let a couple of opinions hold you back.

Cheers
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #243 on: 2012-10-09, 10:22:08 »
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« Last Edit: 2012-10-11, 09:36:47 by janost »
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #244 on: 2012-10-09, 10:58:48 »
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« Last Edit: 2012-10-11, 09:37:10 by janost »
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #245 on: 2012-10-09, 12:54:18 »
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Quote from: janost on 2012-10-09, 10:22:08
Well perpetual motion is impossible.
Even a lamp eventually breaks down because of component ageing even though it is constantly supplied power.
...

Of course a "perpetual motion" is not eternal. But the reliability is not the point. The concept of "perpetual motion" widely adopted everywhere is different from your own definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion

It's not a question of reliability but of principle. The perpetual motion is supposed to be impossible not because something will break at a moment or another, but according to scientists, because the energy is conserved in a closed system but there are always losses that dissipate it.

Once you demonstrate that the capacitor powering your circuit is recharged (easy, you just have to show that its voltage remains constant or increases), you have demonstrated a perpetual motion, even if the circuit fails some time later because the electrolytic capacitor becomes dry or the wires oxidize and break or whatever else.
A real negative resistance in a closed system having nothing to do with the creation of energy, I'd be rather amazed that you provided this demonstration. In any case, in despite of your claim of selfrunner, it's not yet done.

« Last Edit: 2012-10-09, 13:50:05 by exnihiloest »
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #246 on: 2012-10-09, 14:37:55 »
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« Last Edit: 2012-10-11, 09:38:21 by janost »
   
img  ion
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #247 on: 2012-10-09, 14:48:37 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Janost:

This circuit is not novel and wastes considerable energy in the charging resistor.

Also since it is a resonant oscillator (as opposed to flyback), you would do better to improve the impedance mismatch from the secondary back to the source

This circuit can be also accomplished with a DIAC or with 2 transistors configured as a regenerative switch.

It is basically a relaxation oscillator kicking a resonant circuit.

You might wish to try an inductor of high value to replace the resistor for greater efficiency, but if the holding current of the switch is exceeded it will stay latched to the on state.

Folks who play with these circuits should try using a capacitor as source or very low AH batteries to expedite the test, lest they deceive themselves into thinking they have something novel because it runs a long time due to low current draw.

There is no substitute for careful I / O measurements.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #248 on: 2012-10-09, 15:20:38 »
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« Last Edit: 2012-10-11, 09:38:51 by janost »
   
img  janost
Re: Janost's "Self-runner" Device: Replicating and Testing « Reply #249 on: 2012-10-10, 08:35:37 »
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« Last Edit: 2012-10-11, 09:39:20 by janost »
   
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