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Author Topic: SEMP AI Smart Electromagnetic Generator (AISEG)  (Read 11293 times)

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Would not B H loops with the same area represent equal energies? Could their iron be that much different than motor lamination, like 10's of orders of magnitude?

You spent time showing B H area energy. I thought you were implying the excess energy was originating there. How does it relate?

My point is, even if all the energy (area encompassed B H) was converted to electrical output, it falls way short of what they claim. I was hoping that you may have some evidence of the magnitude of that B H energy from your analysis. I can just go on my gut here as I no longer have the analytical capability.
Thanks.
bi
In the case of motor laminations you are thinking of the BH loop that represents losses, and it is close to the situation tht occurs when there is no mechanical load.  There is another BH loop that includes the H from the load current, and that has a different and greater area, representing the situation when the motor is delivering power.  The SEMP also has two BH loops.  One is the input loop that I show having the green area as energy input while not delivering any output.  The other is the output loop I show when it is delivering energy while not consuming any input.  So two different loops under different conditions.  No so different from the motor really.

Smudge
   
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In the case of motor laminations you are thinking of the BH loop that represents losses, and it is close to the situation tht occurs when there is no mechanical load.  There is another BH loop that includes the H from the load current, and that has a different and greater area, representing the situation when the motor is delivering power.  The SEMP also has two BH loops.  One is the input loop that I show having the green area as energy input while not delivering any output.  The other is the output loop I show when it is delivering energy while not consuming any input.  So two different loops under different conditions.  No so different from the motor really.

Smudge

Hi Smudge,
Thanks for the reply. So use a wound field DC motor/generator as example. The armature has a flux field or vector due to load current. The field excitation (field coil current) produces a main field or flux vector. The two combine to make an air gap flux wave (resultant vector). Mathematical resultant is cross product of armature flux 
 vector and field flux vector, which produces torque. The difference between the no-load air gap flux and loaded air gap flux is described as armature distortion or armature reaction.

The magnetic domains in the armature steel see a single round trip around the characteristic B H hysteresis curve for passage of a pole pair during rotation. The steel in the field yoke and poles shoes experience different hysteresis ranging from no-change to minor loops depending on location and geometry. The machine hysteresis loss includes all loops so is different loaded to no-load, but typically that difference is small.

In DC machines, another point of reference is the calculation of the mmf ratio, field to armature. For good performance/torque production, at full load, is desired near 1 : 1. Did your simulation provide such a ratio?

I don't see a drastic difference between the magnetic material cycling in the cores of the DC generator and the SEMP, except for magnetic circuit air gap length.

I'll study those B H curves in your paper in light of what you've said here. Thanks again.
bi
   
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 :D
I tried it in the past, and I try it again now: measuring the 220V winding of an iron-core transformer with a normal multimeter will receive an electric shock if your finger is between the pen and the terminal of the multimeter when you leave the pen of the multimeter.
In the past, it was only said that the back EMF increased the voltage of the winding.
Now looking at the energy, it seems that the energy sent to the transformer by the multimeter is not up to the intensity experienced by the electric shock.
Maybe measuring transformers has the same principle as SEMP?
« Last Edit: 2024-01-15, 22:39:21 by panyuming »
   

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I would love to believe that SEMP discovered something no one has seen before, but let's be realistic. The core would have to be prepared in a previously unknown way. However, adding carbon is not a miracle mechanism because this method has been used for a long time. It's called carbonizing, right.
You are talking about slowing down the demagnetization process and demagnetizing it spontaneously.
That last sentence makes no sense, spontaneous is the opposite of slowing down.  What SEMP claim is the forging process of carbonising (that usually uses rapid quenching by plunging into cold liquid) can use very slow quenching (cooling) like 10 hours, and this can give the iron a new characteristic that has not been used before.  So it is different from the usual carbonizing.
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Have you ever had a coil with a core and a load? What you call demagnetization is the BEMF force that acts every time for in and out.
You may call it BEMF but let's be clear, in this case it is an EMF (voltage) that comes from the flux changing wrt to time.  The term BEMF is usually applied to electric motors, not transformers.  It occurs on flux rise and on flux fall. 
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When the current from the coil is disconnected, the coil tends to get rid of the magnetic field, right.
You use the term “tends to” and I assume you mean that the current fall to zero is what creates the demagnetization.  That is correct but it doesn't get rid of all the field and what remains is known as the remanent field Brem.  Look at the BH loop for transformer steel and it is there at H=0.
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If the transformer core maintains magnetism then it stops demagnetization because it cannot do so. The core is, for example, a magnet. You won't make the magnet act as a transformer core. This is why there is a problem here.
That Brem is not a problem in transformers because it gets wiped away each half cycle, but it does occur.  And if you disconnect the coil at that Brem point it stays there.  Science recognises that Brem as permanent magnetism and it is a problem in power transformers when they have undergone certain tests, see this thesis https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=2b2413f35e4c331eJmltdHM9MTcwNTE5MDQwMCZpZ3VpZD0wODk2NTMwNC05MzMxLTY0NTAtMGY1MS00MmVjOTczMTYyNmUmaW5zaWQ9NTIwMQ&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=08965304-9331-6450-0f51-42ec9731626e&psq=Optimal+Demagnetization+of++Transformer+After+Winding++Resistance+Measurements&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9rdGguZGl2YS1wb3J0YWwub3JnL3NtYXNoL2dldC9kaXZhMjoxNTM3NjU4L0ZVTExURVhUMDEucGRm&ntb=1.
So normal transformer steel does have some permanent magnetism, it is a magnet, and transformers do work OK.
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The SEMP core would have to exhibit additional properties. E.g. magnetize with a small pulse up to 100% of its magnetic field. So, for example, a 1% pulse causes 100% core magnetization. Yes?
What do you mean by a 1% pulse?  Do you mean pulse amplitude, if so 1% of what?  SEMP use a small pulse time but of amplitude to get your 100% magnetization.  That is not a problem.
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what about demagnetization? here we now have another problem. A load that is constant.
The demagnetization is not a problem, it occurs naturally on its own with no outside help.  That is what SEMP have discovered with their long cooling time for the carbonizing process.  And it happens fast enough for a significant voltage (your BEMF) to be induced into a coil and drive current through a load.
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Disturbing things should be noticed, such as the removal of information from websites that informed about SEMP. Why ?
What information has been removed, can you be more specific.

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Explain to me where is the excess energy that SEMP discovered? I know you're going to tell me that it's from the core, but it's about an analogy, if that's possible.
   

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Explain to me where is the excess energy that SEMP discovered? I know you're going to tell me that it's from the core, but it's about an analogy, if that's possible.
No it is not from the core.  It is something that causes the core to lose its remanent magnetic field when there is no electrical drive to do this.  As I state in my paper this could be thermal whereby the system draws in heat energy from its surroundings.  The fact that SEMP pump air through the center of their cores is where that heat energy comes in, if it is a thermal effect.  It could be more fundamental than that involving Heisenberg uncertainty knocking the billions of magnetic dipoles that create the field out of their alignment.  Whatever it is it is something new within transformer operation.  Let me give you an example of an experiment that illustrates the effect.  We take a transformer, pass current through a coil to magnetize it then turn the current off. Now we heat the thing up towards its Curie temperature and while we do this we look for any voltage across the coil.  When it reaches the Curie point the magnetic field disappears so we see a voltage spike.  We can have a resistor across the coil and that resistor will receive an energy pulse.  Now we reduce the temperature to just below below the Curie point and remagnetize the core.  Increase the temperature again and get another energy spike out.  We keep doing this so we get a train of input energy spikes and a train of output energy spikes.  We find that the output energy exceeds the input energy but we are not surprised because we have another energy source that is thermal.  We might find that we do not need to do the alternate heating cooling.  If we hold the temperature just below the Curie point we might find that after the first magnetizing pulse the field decays quickly on ts own due to the significant thermal agitation of the dipoles.  We get an output energy spike into our load resistor.  Then we repeat the process to get trains of pulses.  That is what SEMP do.  Maybe their temperature controlled cabinet does just that, holds the transformers near Curie temperature.

Smudge       
   
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I really like your explanation of the Curie point but it would have to be at a reasonable temperature of about 300C because the wires won't hold. They write about it, but I don't know if that's what they meant.
Such a process must be very accurate with respect to the magnetic field decay temperature. Heating and cooling 120 times per second. Is it possible ? This worries me a bit.


ex.: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-OFcHG969mQ

Let's think: To control this process, it would be necessary to constantly monitor the temperature or changing demagnetization times. This would have to be described in a patent or at least visible in videos, but we only see a simple trigger circuit for the IGBT. It's Timer and drivers. That's all you can see.
Additionally, the presentations are in places such as the building and some outside, which changes the temperature. These may not be big changes, but they are there.
   

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Heating and cooling 120 times per second. Is it possible ? This worries me a bit.
Me to worried it during a few year as well.
   

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You have missed the point, you hold the temperature constant at just below Curie point.  That creates the situation where Brem is not permanent, it decays in milliseconds.
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How does SEMP control this process?
   
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I really like your explanation of the Curie point but it would have to be at a reasonable temperature of about 300C because the wires won't hold. They write about it, but I don't know if that's what they meant.

A more plausible theory would be that temperature has nothing to do with the effect.

Most of these devices use high frequency drives which generates a lot of heat by eddy currents aka induction heating. Now add in large thick coils stacked into a long cylinder where the heat has nowhere to go and a hollow air cooled core becomes obvious. As well higher frequencies require less core material so a solid core becomes a liability.

My guess is they may have used something like a thin wall amorphous metal tube which may or may not involve magnetostriction or parametric power generation. Amorphous metals, aka metallic glass or metglass, is made by rapidly cooling molten metal before it can form a crystalline structure.

In fact, I talked with a few FE inventors building similar devices and induction heating effects were an issue. A few watts is hardly a problem but once we get into kilowatt power levels it's a big problem. No offense but I'm not buying into this thermal energy theory.

AC


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You have missed the point, you hold the temperature constant at just below Curie point.  That creates the situation where Brem is not permanent, it decays in milliseconds.
Smudge

I know that's what it's about. The problem is that the time needed to change the temperature does not quite match 120 times per second. Not even up to 60Hz either.

Is there a current surge in the coil? The moment of demagnetization would have to be exactly at the moment of changing the polarization of the current or the opposite impulse.
Air will not be able to cool the core in this way.
The moment of starting the device would have to be delayed by the time the core warms up and then the temperature should be kept constant within a certain range.
It's not possible with what we see.

They even write about 40 kW and there is also information that they are building MW.
   

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I know that's what it's about. The problem is that the time needed to change the temperature does not quite match 120 times per second. Not even up to 60Hz either.
Let me make this clearer.  I only mentioned changing the temperature to above and below the Curie point to get the message across that demagnetization by this method could deliver more energy out during the demagnetizing than was put in to do the magnetizing.  I did not say this would be done 120 times per second.  I then went on to suggest that if the temperature was held constant near the Curie point then the Brem would not remain constant but would decay on its own over a short period of time.  It is the input current pulse to rmagnetize the core that is done 120 times per second.
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Is there a current surge in the coil?
Of course there is, that is the whole point, that is the output pulse.
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The moment of demagnetization would have to be exactly at the moment of changing the polarization of the current or the opposite impulse.
No, no, no!  There is no opposite impulse and the magnetizing current does not change polarization.  The natural (thermally driven) demagnetization takes place immediately after the magnetizing pulse current ends. 
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Air will not be able to cool the core in this way.
If the excess energy in the output pulses is coming from the heat in the core that will be a cooling effect, and the blown air through the coil has to replace that heat. That is not a problem.
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The moment of starting the device would have to be delayed by the time the core warms up and then the temperature should be kept constant within a certain range.
It's not possible with what we see.
They even write about 40 kW and there is also information that they are building MW.
But if their discovery of milliseconds natural demagnetization time is at room temperature then the excess energy is taken from the room.

Smudge
   

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My guess is they may have used something like a thin wall amorphous metal tube which may or may not involve magnetostriction or parametric power generation. Amorphous metals, aka metallic glass or metglass, is made by rapidly cooling molten metal before it can form a crystalline structure.
No need to guess, they clearly state they use iron that has been forged and cooled in a certain manner.  It is a thin walled tube.  They claim that process gives the material the property where Brem is no longer permanent magnetism, it decays on its own without any electrical help like a reversed current.  We don't know what is driving that demagnetizing process but it is clear to me that SEMP use that to get their excess energy.

Smudge
   
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... but it is clear to me that SEMP use that to get their excess energy.

Smudge

Yes, if it's not fake.

These walls in the core are not that thin at all. The drawings in the patent show solid walls  :-\
« Last Edit: 2024-01-30, 09:19:28 by maxmalone »
   

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Yes, if it's not fake.

These walls in the core are not that thin at all. The drawings in the patent show solid walls  :-\
The patents show a tube, here is a screenshot with the item numbers overwritten by me.  Yes the walls are not thin so there will be eddy current heating.

Smudge
   
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And here is the full core but ok.
   
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https://patents.google.com/patent/KR101913746B1/ko

See the images in this patent.
The story seems to change frequently.
bi
   

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https://patents.google.com/patent/KR101913746B1/ko

See the images in this patent.
The story seems to change frequently.
bi
That patent is for a DC-DC converter.  I think their discovery of a Brem that is not permanent magnetism has created a transformer where the input current is "DC" (actually pulses of current in the same polarity) and the output is "DC" (pulses of current in the same polarity), and they have patented this.  My guess is that while developing this they discovered they could get more power out than in and that led to the later patents.

Smudge
   

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Buy me a beer
That patent is for a DC-DC converter.  I think their discovery of a Brem that is not permanent magnetism has created a transformer where the input current is "DC" (actually pulses of current in the same polarity) and the output is "DC" (pulses of current in the same polarity), and they have patented this.  My guess is that while developing this they discovered they could get more power out than in and that led to the later patents.

Smudge

A la TPU, DC induction, but where does the current come from in this unit? In the TPU it is induced into the core capacitance and then used when a load is connected, it is more simple than you can imagine.

Regards

Mike


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Yes, everything is definitely simple when you talk about it.

Why was S.Mark convicted of fraud? He took the money and never fulfilled his promises.
I know his story and what he said and wrote.
As far as I know, unfortunately, he is no longer alive.


it is sad:  http://padrak.com/ine/SMARK.html
   
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Why was S.Mark convicted of fraud? He took the money and never fulfilled his promises.
I know his story and what he said and wrote.
As far as I know, unfortunately, he is no longer alive.

-moved response to "FE inventors being scammed" thread.
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4584.msg110196;topicseen#msg110196


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It appears that SEMP have discovered a heat treatment for iron that makes it superparamagnetic at a temperature somewhat above ambient but well below the Curie point.  Superparamagnetic iron is different from the ferromagnetic iron/steel used in power transformer cores, and it is this difference that allows then to use pulses in transformers that operate in a hitherto impossible manner.  That is a groundbreaking discovery that should be taken note of by the scientific establishment.  It's a pity this important moment is obscured by SEMP's PR language that reads as nonsense  to most scientists.

Smudge
   

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The image below is taken from a publication dealing with remanent magnetization in rocks, but the important aspect here is the formula 3.13 it gives for the exponential decay of remanent magnetization after removal of the magnetizing field.  It then gives Neel's formula 3.14 for the time constant of that decay.  That time constant can range from fractions of a second to many years and the remainder of the paper considers time constants of 109 years.  Our interest is in fractions of a second as claimed by SEMP.  Here is the evidence that remanent magnetization can decay due to thermal agitation of the atomic dipoles responsible for the field in ferromagnetic materials such as transformer cores.  And that occurs at temperatures below the Curie point.  SEMP have discovered a method of getting iron to absrob carbon so that its remanent field is unstable and decays to zero very quickly after removal of the magnetizing field.  If that quick change of field induces voltage into a coil connected to a load resistor we get energy out that is driven by that thermal agitation.  So overunity operation is quite simple, magnetize the core with a current pulse taking energy from an electrical source, then use the remanent field decay to get energy out driven thermally.  This is a new means for converting heat energy into electrical energy, it is a form of heat pump that has COP>>1.

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How would carbonised iron differ from soft ferrite in terms of the remanent magnetism? If you applied a DC pulse to carbonised iron and soft ferrite, how different would the magnetic decay be? Would it be orders of magnitude different?

From Wikipedia:

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Ferrites can be divided into two families based on their resistance to being demagnetized (magnetic coercivity).

"Hard" ferrites have high coercivity, so are difficult to demagnetize. They are used to make permanent magnets for applications such as refrigerator magnets, loudspeakers, and small electric motors.

"Soft" ferrites have low coercivity, so they easily change their magnetization and act as conductors of magnetic fields. They are used in the electronics industry to make efficient magnetic cores called ferrite cores for high-frequency inductors, transformers and antennas, and in various microwave components.

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Soft ferrites are not permanent magnets. They have magnetism (much like mild steel), but when the magnetic field is removed, the magnetism decreases. Soft ferrites are commonly used as transformers (to change the voltage from primary to secondary windings). As a result, soft ferrites are also called transformer ferrites.They have a low coercivity. The low coercivity means the material's magnetization can easily reverse direction without dissipating much energy (hysteresis losses), while the material's high resistivity prevents eddy currents in the core, another source of energy loss.
   
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