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Author Topic: about those magnets ....25KW in Vegas and other places too  (Read 7497 times)
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"Because conventional electric motors use magnets and electromagnets with equal polarity (i.e. 50% north pole and 50% south pole), Catalan says half of the magnetic energy is always directed away from the air-gap, leading to poor utilization of available energy."

...

Where is this quote from?  thanks.
   
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Where is this quote from?  thanks.

Better than the quote, where are the published family of curves every manufacturer of improved motors should supply? Should be easy to compare his (Catalan) design with off the shelf motors. I did not find anything in his patent regarding an improvement in motor efficiency, only that it used a Halbach configuration. I may have missed it.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=motor+efficiency+curves&t=ffsb&atb=v135-2__&iax=images&ia=images

https://texasiof.ceer.utexas.edu/texasshowcase/pdfs/presentations/d5/rschiferl.pdf

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/04/f15/10097517.pdf

http://www.itrc.org/reports/pdf/r06004.pdf


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Where is this quote from?  thanks.
From the link above my previous message, provided by Partzman:
https://www.voanews.com/a/can-better-electric-motor-save-planet/4235140.html


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.


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...
However, the efficiency of the best conventional electric motors has long since reached 95%.
...

I was late, Tesla did better: >99%.

"Tests carried out on a 44 megawatt 6-pole synchronous ABB motor shortly before delivery showed an efficiency 0.25 percent greater than the 98.8 percent stipulated in the contract, resulting in the world record for electric motor efficiency."

Attempting to improve the efficiency of electric motors is therefore no longer of interest.


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Better than the quote, where are the published family of curves every manufacturer of improved motors should supply? Should be easy to compare his (Catalan) design with off the shelf motors. I did not find anything in his patent regarding an improvement in motor efficiency, only that it used a Halbach configuration. I may have missed it.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=motor+efficiency+curves&t=ffsb&atb=v135-2__&iax=images&ia=images

https://texasiof.ceer.utexas.edu/texasshowcase/pdfs/presentations/d5/rschiferl.pdf

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/04/f15/10097517.pdf

http://www.itrc.org/reports/pdf/r06004.pdf

AFAIK,almost motors only use one side of the PMs field,and one side of the coils electromagnetic field.
The one exception that i am aware of are the small 3 phase RC motor's,that have a round diametrically magnetised magnet on the shaft of the motor,and the 3 coils around the stator.
But even this one uses only one side of the coils magnetic field.


I wonder why no one has designed a motor that uses both sides of the PMs field,and both sides of the coils electromagnetic field ?.


Brad


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...
I wonder why no one has designed a motor that uses both sides of the PMs field,and both sides of the coils electromagnetic field ?.
...

This would increase the power, but without improving the efficiency, and at the cost of a complication that probably makes it easier to use only one side, even if it means increasing the mass of the magnets.


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This would increase the power, but without improving the efficiency, and at the cost of a complication that probably makes it easier to use only one side, even if it means increasing the mass of the magnets.

I wonder if that is true.
Would not a stronger field passing the drive coils increase the value of the BEMF ?.
If the BEMF value is increased,the current input decreases.


Brad


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I wonder if that is true.
Would not a stronger field passing the drive coils increase the value of the BEMF ?.
If the BEMF value is increased,the current input decreases.


Brad

Hi Brad,

You do not need power to run a motor (Newton's first law applied to rotation). You need power to provide useful work, and overcome friction because the motor is not perfect.
The more powerful fields that make it possible to improve efficiency are not for questions of principle but for engineering reasons, it is clear that if the same current produces a greater flux, it is because there are fewer losses in the resistance of the wire or in the eddy currents.

In an ideal motor, whatever the intensity of the magnetic fluxes, the current consumed depends only on the work provided. A magnetic field or flux is only a means of converting electrical energy into mechanical energy, or vice versa, it is only a vector acting between the two.
The efficiency of the conversion depends only on the ratio between electrical and mechanical energy, not on the intensity of the magnetic flux. Whether the magnetic field is strong or weak does not change the efficiency, but only the level of power that can be achieved.

There is one principle to remember: a magnetic field does not provide work. The reason is that the Lorentz force is transverse to the movement of the charges and therefore the work, product of force x displacement, is null because the displacement is not carried out in the direction of the force.



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The more powerful fields that make it possible to improve efficiency are not for questions of principle but for engineering reasons, it is clear that if the same current produces a greater flux, it is because there are fewer losses in the resistance of the wire or in the eddy currents.
The same current through the same number of turns cannot produce greater flux.  The same current can create greater flux if you have more turns.  But flux is related to current expressed as ampere-turns irrespective of the resistance of the wire.  What does change with resistance is the energy needed to create that flux and hold it for any period of time.

Quote
In an ideal motor, whatever the intensity of the magnetic fluxes, the current consumed depends only on the work provided.
I think you mean current "consumed" for a given input voltage on the basis that our power infrastructure is from voltage generators.  If we had current generators then you could talk about voltage "consumed".  I think the only thing really consumed is the input power.
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The same current through the same number of turns cannot produce greater flux.

Of course, but you have to take into account the context of my answer. In the link to the VOA, Catalan claims that it doubles the flux on the useful side, compared to a conventional motor. We must assume that it is for the same current, otherwise his claim would be of no interest.

Quote
...I think the only thing really consumed is the input power.
Smudge

In an ideal motor, which was my hypothesis as indicated, there is no resistance, and no losses in eddy currents. Suppose the coils are superconducting, their circuit is closed and you induce a current in the coils. The current will circulate forever if the motor has no mechanical load. If it has to exert a torque, the mechanical energy will be taken from the electrical energy and the current will weaken and fall to zero, in conjunction with the magnetic flux. The current is "really consumed" as well as the power. The magnetic flux depends only on the current, and a voltage or current generator is only used to maintain the current when the motor provides mechanical work (and in a real motor, to compensate for losses).



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Ok,so i was watching the video below,and seen something odd.

Watch from 4:25.
How exactly dose the razor blade accelerate away from the magnet,do a U turn,then accelerate toward the magnet ???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bA2OMRcxKo


Brad

The plate must have had remanent magnetism in it from earlier tests, so it behaved as a weak magnet which was repelled out from his palm and then attracted back in U turn.  He carefully moved the plate horizontally where it was almost floating in the field from which it "escaped".

EDIT added a snapshot from the steel plate the moment it was "captured" and stand vertically at an earlier time.

Gyula


Well that could be it.

Starting to think this might be the real deal.


Brad

Hi Brad,

The reason I return to this topic is that TinselKoala wrote a comment for you under the Brief Tour of the IEC Factory video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bA2OMRcxKo , here is what he wrote:

"Brad, if you are reading here, you can do the "asymmetric magnet + razor blade" trick using nice strong hard drive magnets, and sticking one pole of them to the chunks of mu-metal that you will also find in the hard drive. So you have one pole bare, and the other pole stuck to the mu-metal piece. In my own tests here I'm using N56 NdBFe magnets and a double layer of the mu-metal keepers -- and the field on the outside of the mu-metal can't even pick up a sewing needle from less than one cm away. If I move the field so that the needle is at the edge, it will do exactly what the razor blade does in this video: it will seem to be repelled from the mu-metal side and it will fly up and over and stick to the unshielded pole side. So you can make and experiment with apparently the same "asymmetric not true monopole" magnets at home and make your own not-perpetual-motion machine yourself, if that's all it takes. Cheers mate, and keep an open mind... but not so open that your brains run out your earholes." 

TK has another comment at Revolusion Green which is quoted by Stefan at the ou forum, this one:
https://overunity.com/18188/iec-earth-engine-first-magnet-motor-installed-in-las-vegas/msg533469/#msg533469   

So he suspects a scam...

Gyula
 
   

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Hi Brad,

The reason I return to this topic is that TinselKoala wrote a comment for you under the Brief Tour of the IEC Factory video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bA2OMRcxKo , here is what he wrote:

"Brad, if you are reading here, you can do the "asymmetric magnet + razor blade" trick using nice strong hard drive magnets, and sticking one pole of them to the chunks of mu-metal that you will also find in the hard drive. So you have one pole bare, and the other pole stuck to the mu-metal piece. In my own tests here I'm using N56 NdBFe magnets and a double layer of the mu-metal keepers -- and the field on the outside of the mu-metal can't even pick up a sewing needle from less than one cm away. If I move the field so that the needle is at the edge, it will do exactly what the razor blade does in this video: it will seem to be repelled from the mu-metal side and it will fly up and over and stick to the unshielded pole side. So you can make and experiment with apparently the same "asymmetric not true monopole" magnets at home and make your own not-perpetual-motion machine yourself, if that's all it takes. Cheers mate, and keep an open mind... but not so open that your brains run out your earholes." 

TK has another comment at Revolusion Green which is quoted by Stefan at the ou forum, this one:
https://overunity.com/18188/iec-earth-engine-first-magnet-motor-installed-in-las-vegas/msg533469/#msg533469   

So he suspects a scam...

Gyula
 

Thanks Gyula for relaying the message.

It is very hard to tell what is going on in the video.
A video clearly showing the work being done by the device,and the input power required to do that work would be nice,but i doubt we will get to see that.


Brad


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Well
Stefan forwarded a "lead" today for contact on this IEC
will be following up next week ,to discuss  some kind of visit with testing.

   
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...
"Brad, if you are reading here, you can do the "asymmetric magnet + razor blade" trick using nice strong hard drive magnets, and sticking one pole of them to the chunks of mu-metal that you will also find in the hard drive. So you have one pole bare, and the other pole stuck to the mu-metal piece. In my own tests here I'm using N56 NdBFe magnets and a double layer of the mu-metal keepers -- and the field on the outside of the mu-metal can't even pick up a sewing needle from less than one cm away. If I move the field so that the needle is at the edge, it will do exactly what the razor blade does in this video: it will seem to be repelled from the mu-metal side and it will fly up and over and stick to the unshielded pole side. So you can make and experiment with apparently the same "asymmetric not true monopole" magnets at home and make your own not-perpetual-motion machine yourself, if that's all it takes. Cheers mate, and keep an open mind... but not so open that your brains run out your earholes." 
...

I confirm what TK said. I have a lot of these kind of magnets, I played them too, and that's exactly how it works.
The principle is simple, on the one side the field lines close in the MU-metal, and on the other side in the air. So necessarily, the magnetic field is only accessible on the open side, it is the only place where the magnetic flux can manifest its presence and attract ferromagnetic matter due to the field gradient (but the flux is always looped).

The idea that a magnet should be symmetrical is absurd, symmetrical magnets are only a special case, and the MU-metal removes this symmetry. Who would be surprised that a horseshoe magnet would not be symmetrical?!

Thanks for the quote, Gyula.

Quote
So he suspects a scam...

So do I, but because of the explanation they give that the operation of their motor would not be a perpetual movement. They say that over time magnets become demagnetized, suggesting that this is where the energy would come from. This is completely false, the energy they tell us that their motor produced over the years is millions of times higher than the magnetization energy of magnets. So even if the magnets were to lose their magnetism, the energy to remagnetize them could be taken from the energy produced and would be negligible, and therefore we would have perpetual movement.
As in addition IEC shows us a video where we have all the clichés of a wonderful world with clean energy, to condition us, and they are looking for investors, I think TK is right.


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Has anyone considered that there could be batteries hidden inside the rotor? This would be an ideal place to hide the energy source, and the batteries would be able to power coils in the unit that provide rotation against the external magnet, or provide the energy to overcome the sticky spot while at the same time providing rotational mass.

These batteries could be charged to full capacity by a hidden connector or by magnetic induction, and then could provide kW extracted from the rotating flywheel with the batteries comprising most of the mass and all of the energy.

Wireless switches also hidden inside the flywheel could activate / deactivate or it could be set up to start /stop by other simple means.

This is how I would do it if I were interested in making a fake device that needed to provide a few kW for a short time period.

FWIW


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Has anyone considered that there could be batteries hidden inside the rotor? This would be an ideal place to hide the energy source, and the batteries would be able to power coils in the unit that provide rotation against the external magnet, or provide the energy to overcome the sticky spot while at the same time providing rotational mass.

These batteries could be charged to full capacity by a hidden connector or by magnetic induction, and then could provide kW extracted from the rotating flywheel with the batteries comprising most of the mass and all of the energy.

Wireless switches also hidden inside the flywheel could activate / deactivate or it could be set up to start /stop by other simple means.

This is how I would do it if I were interested in making a fake device that needed to provide a few kW for a short time period.

FWIW

It is odd that all the flywheels seem to be laminated,when solid flywheels this size are readily available through heavy industry equipment suppliers.

But didnt they have one that was totally transparent they were showing?.


Brad


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It's turtles all the way down
It is odd that all the flywheels seem to be laminated,when solid flywheels this size are readily available through heavy industry equipment suppliers.

But didnt they have one that was totally transparent they were showing?.


Brad

The laminated flywheels are far too thick to provide any eddy current reduction by laminations. I have not been following all the details but have read the posts at Revolution Green and everyone seemed to be pointing to an external battery or cables. TK is on it as well as a few other diligent guys.

I just thought that the rotor (the 900kg gorilla in the room) was not considered as a possible hiding place, but perhaps someone already mentioned it.

The "crystal" unit is not providing power, just some rotation AFAIK, but I could be wrong, as I said, not following that closely.

Regards


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